What Leaders Secretly Tell Us Behind Closed Doors

What Leaders Secretly Tell Us Behind Closed Doors

Ep 131 What Leaders Secretly Tell Us

Eric: [00:00:00] I think a lot of leaders are actually deep down of what I’m hearing, is they’re looking for relief. They’re, they’re wishing that the load could be, uh, more shared, uh, across the team.

Rob: The script that is becoming louder and louder and more, uh, inviting into many leaders is that self-care is not an indulgent, it’s strategic.

Steve: Being able to go somewhere, talk to someone, or have a team around you where that pressure. Is not just on the leader, it’s so, so vital. Or else we’re, you know, we’re going to explode.

Eric: Yeah. I love to say that, uh, while most coaches pick a lane, we build a fucking three lane highway, right? Super highway, uh, of focusing on the leader, the team, and the business, because all three are important.

Hi, and welcome to the Living Richly. Podcast. We’re so glad that you’ve joined us today for this really important conversation on what leaders are telling us [00:01:00] behind closed doors. The three of us here, I’m here with, of course, uh, my co-host Rob Dale. Yeah, great to have you here, Rob. Good to be here. Uh, and, and we have Steve Osmond all the way from Calgary.

Great to have you, Steve. It’s great to be back on the Living Richly

Steve: podcast.

Eric: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And we’re, uh, we’re all, all three of us. We are leadership, business, and high performance coaches, and we work with founders and entrepreneurs. Of course, Rhapsody, our company, is the sponsor of the podcast, and we wanted to do a show dedicated to what we’re hearing right now in terms of the real challenges that leaders.

Facing. So Steve, we’re gonna just dive right in. I wanna throw the first question your way. What’s one thing that you are hearing leaders say or be more honest about than in the past?

Steve: My leadership matters more than ever, but I feel less in control than ever. Right. And the reason why we’re hearing that is because we are in.

Unique conversations with leaders in a trusted space? No, uh, nobody else is [00:02:00] listening. The leader can’t admit that in many other contexts. Right, right. But in a conversation with the coach, they’re able to say, um, they need me to lead, but I’m feeling out of control and, and I’m hearing that. More and more in diff different versions of that.

Mm. But things are feeling chaotic, out of control, but my leadership demands are increasing. Wow.

Rob: Yeah. The word that came to mind for me, and it it ties into what you’re saying is overwhelm. They’re feeling overwhelmed. Uh, and it’s because of the chaos. Uh, you know, they, we got outta COVID and everybody was like, took a deep breath and thought, okay, finally now we can get.

Back to business. And now there’s, you know, fast forward a couple of years and there’s so much uncertainty with, with tariffs and with other situations, with all kinds of global uncertainty and business leaders, they just simply don’t know from day to day as they dive into their business, what’s gonna show up today.

And that overwhelm is out of this sense of, I need to show up more than ever before. I just don’t know where and how, [00:03:00] because. Of all the stuff that’s going on.

Eric: Yeah, I, I agree with you a hundred percent. I think I’m, I’m hearing that I’m not just busy. I’m exhausted.

All: Yeah.

Eric: Um, and another one that, uh, is coming up quite frequently is a whole subject of loneliness.

How lonely it is at the top. And I know that’s not a new. Sort of reality. I think that’s a, well, it’s a cliche for a reason. It’s lonely at the top. But I’m hearing it more and more, uh, from, from my leaders who are saying, I, you know, I can’t talk to my wife about this stuff, or my partner or my husband, depending on, you know, um, I can’t talk to my team.

Uh, so to your point, uh, Steve, frequently they. They, they open up to us because we are that safe space, uh, uh, that non-judgmental space. But I’m hearing that and I’m also hearing more and more, uh, leaders saying that they’re no longer willing. Uh, although they’re still in a high performance mode where they’re sometimes not.

Tending enough to the fires at home and taking care of things outside of work. I’m hearing more and more, I, I don’t want to [00:04:00] build my business at the expense of my personal life, my family, um, my health and the rest of it.

Rob: There’s, there’s a massive backlash to the hustle culture. Culture. Mm-hmm. And this idea that, again, there’s still many that embrace it and many think that it’s the only way is I have to work my, I have to work harder to get through whatever I’m, uh, dealing with.

But I think you’re right. That tiredness, that loneliness, uh. You know, I, I think of it as it’s not just a physical tiredness. It’s, it’s an emotional fatigue. It’s in the bones. It’s in the bones, it’s in the soul. And it’s because all they’ve seen for some of them, and I had a conversation with a business leader not that long ago, and he said like he learned it from his dad who learned it from his dad, and they’re all entrepreneurs.

He’s now the entrepreneur and it’s go, go, go. And he spent time in the hospital recently. He’s been, you know, dealing with all kinds of medical issues. He’s a healthy. Guy who’s carrying so much hustle, stress that the, the he, it’s, he’s crashing as a result. And so I think there’s a pushback to the [00:05:00] go, go, go culture.

Eric: Yeah. Well I think, you know, like hustle culture, uh, at its core, if man, when you’re young, uh, that’s the time. To go balls to the wall. Yeah. Right. Like, you don’t have, if you don’t have a family yet, you’re not, you don’t, maybe you have a relationship, but it’s, you’ve got more freedom, you’ve got less responsibility.

That’s the time to put in the energy, uh, right. Put in the extra time to really get things moving. I think there is, um, among the younger generations today, there’s this notion that I can achieve success without the effort. Well, you don’t have to. Please actually don’t do it like we did, right? No. Um, but don’t, don’t fool yourself into thinking that you can build something substantial without putting in the work.

Problem is though. ’cause that’s, uh, you’re learning habits that you need to unlearn at some stage. And I think what I’m hearing is a lot of leaders never built the habits of building a great empire and building a great life can actually go. Together that these two things are not opposites or I have to choose one over the other.

You can do [00:06:00] both, but most leaders don’t know how.

Steve: Yeah. Uh, what we tolerate, we teach. Mm. And so Eric, as you just spoke to maybe some younger listeners, uh, we tolerated some things in our, in our generation of leadership. So we passed it on, you know, this is how it’s done, and, uh, I, there’s. Good sense of rejection of that.

Some of that stuff, uh, you don’t wanna embrace maybe, uh, workaholism or just some, you know, emotional distance. Some of that stuff isn’t really good to continue, but at the same time, this generation, the, whether you’re younger or middle age, you have also have to get really clear on what you. Are not willing to tolerate.

And because if you tolerate it, you’ll teach it to the next generation and you’ll teach it to your team. Right? So if you are, uh, willing to tolerate a chaotic, overwhelmed, out of sync lifestyle, then you’re teaching that. [00:07:00] To your team, you’re teaching that to your executives, your team members. And so I think a really important part, uh, when a leader speaks to us behind closed doors, uh, we have to say to the, to that leader, okay, then we have to really nip this in the bud.

We have to really find a way to stop the cycle here. Yeah. So we can put a new burst of health and energy into the business. Yeah. Love that. And

Rob: not, not only is it what we tolerate that we teach, uh, you go even bit deeper. It’s what we believe. And so there are, there are certain beliefs that we hold from our younger days of, of, well, that’s a long time ago For you and back in the black and white days, um, uh, before the world had color, I believe certain things, right?

Back when you were watching Mr. Dress up, you were, you’re, you’re older than me, so is be careful what you, this, you’re not the oldest at the table today. I’m not the oldest guy in the room today. Ah. But, but there is this sense of you just look like the oldest guy. We see it in in our conversations. You just gonna ignore that comic completely.

Wow. I’m just going. Hi, [00:08:00] living Street Nation. We encourage to build each other up here. Uh, there, there is that sense for leaders of there are, there’s a shift. There needs to be a shift of beliefs around what it is that we’re tolerating and to, I love what you, you said there is that there for some I’m not, I I’m not painting a whole generation this ’cause I know lots of strong hustle energy.

We hear like some of the beliefs, work life balance, all of this stuff. Right? We, we blow that stuff outta the water by saying. Stop thinking that way, regardless of what you believe about it. Earlier leader, we would’ve said, we believe it’s no such thing. You have to just work, work, work. Life will come later.

Younger cor uh, younger generation may be, oh, I’m gonna enjoy life now. Hey, what if we just blew up the belief and found something That’s actually true. I know we’ll get into that a little bit today. Yeah. But I think the more we can challenge the beliefs that leaders hold. The more we can tackle the real issues of loneliness, uh, of isolation, of hustle, culture, all of that stuff.

[00:09:00] It comes down to beliefs.

Eric: Yeah, a hundred percent. Uh, and, and let’s, let’s face it again. Today’s episode, this show, right now we’re focusing in on what leaders tell us behind closed doors. These are the, the confessions, the admissions that often. Uh, again, don’t make it onto the quarterly reports. Um, it’s, it’s not the whole story.

There’s also great stories of, uh, success and, yeah, achievement and fulfillment and all that wonderful stuff, but we’re focusing in on some of the real challenges that they often don’t want to talk about. So I’m curious guys, like when you think of. The leaders that you’re working with right now and some of the challenges they talk about, we’ve talked about some of those challenges, but in one, what are some, like one word descriptions that you would use, um, when you’re experiencing leaders?

Uh, in, in that particular, uh, state,

Steve: I, I, I’m having clients, current clients, former clients pass before my eyes, and a the common word is misalignment. Hmm. The team doesn’t [00:10:00] care. About the business as much as I do, or they don’t get it. Mm uh or why, why do I tell them something six times, seven times? And it’s like, I’ve, I’m talking into the air.

Nobody hears what I’m saying. So if, if a, if a leader is overwhelmed, overextended, uh, oftentimes it’s because they haven’t managed or figured out a way to get the team aligned. So the wait. Of the business is being carried by the team. It’s all on me. It’s all on me. If it’s going to be, it’s up to me. And so getting that team aligned, so moving from misalignment to alignment and there’s an art to that and a practice to that, uh, that helps.

Uh, the pressure valve get released where it’s no longer I’m in this by myself, nobody gets it. Uh, now, uh, we’re in this together. Yeah. We have a cohesive team that we’re carrying the load and the burden together. Right, right, right. Yeah.

Rob: Yeah. I I absolutely, I hear that [00:11:00] often is the, the misalignment. I think there’s a, a sense of, of fog that a lot of leaders, uh, and, and that’s a word that comes to mind where they’re sitting down and they’re like, I know I need to do something.

I just don’t know what.

All: Yeah.

Rob: And so there’s, um, almost this, uh, uh, just activity for the sake of activity trying to, and, and they’re, they’re hoping something. If they throw enough things up against the wall, something will sit, something will thing might.

Eric: Stick and hopefully my frantic activity of throwing stuff against the wall will appear strategic to everyone else.

Yeah, yeah. Like, guys, I’m doing this on. Yeah. I’m meant to do that.

Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You, you know, even a, even a broken clock is right twice. Right. And this

Rob: notion of, and, and I think, so I think there is that sense of just. Um, I’m just, I’m, I’m just doing, but I’m not getting any traction with it because I’m, I I, ’cause I don’t know if what I’m doing is what’s going to clear the fog.

And so getting the clarity is, is something they’re so desperate for. [00:12:00] And I see the, the, and we’ve all seen this, the, the relief that comes over a leader when there’s all of a sudden clarity around an issue. The penny drops. The penny drops. Yeah. And they go, oh my God. Thank you. Yeah.

Eric: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Let’s, let’s zero in on the pressures that leaders talk about privately. Um, that, uh, obviously we’re not gonna be revealing any, uh, uh, details about any, we’re we’re just talking about themes that we’re hearing here. Uh, but what are some of those that, those, those pressures that they talk about privately that they, they often completely avoid talking about publicly?

Steve: Well, first of all, I, I, I think the, the myth of self-care, uh, that, uh, while 100% self-care is important, most leaders are not engaging in that. Yeah. Not sufficiently. Not sufficiently. Or, and here’s how I like to frame it. Um, they are [00:13:00] so, uh, so much of their time is paying attention to others. So if you imagine that word.

That phrase Paying, paying attention. Right. There’s a cost to attention. Yeah. Yeah. And so the leader is paying attention to the client, paying attention to the team member, paying attention to the issue, paying, paying, paying. So then when they go. To pay attention to themselves or the self care. They’ve got nothing left to pay.

All: Yeah.

Steve: Like they’re, they’re at a attention deficit. Uh, I, I, I know I’m supposed to care for myself right now, but I’m exhausted. Yeah. And I’m just gonna numb out. I’m just gonna put on Netflix for three hours or I’m gonna. Stare at the bottom of a whiskey bottle or Right. I’m just so, so, uh, helping leaders understand, and that’s what we do in a coaching session.

We’re paying attention back. Right. So now the gold in our pocket or the energy that we’ve got, we’re paying attention to them. [00:14:00] Yeah. And then we’re helping them move into self-care and, and we’re helping them understand what. What needs to happen so that they can be strong in a, in a emotionally cluttered world.

Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah.

Rob: I, I think the press, one of the pressures I, uh, see show up a lot with, with leaders is the pressure to keep everyone happy. Huh, uh, the pressure to, to,

Eric: oh, you, you mean, you mean leaders struggle with people pleasing, right? Yeah. Yeah. People pleasing

Rob: Well, and, and, and even deeper because they, they’re looking at, so again, I recognize that many of our, of the faithful regular listeners to the podcast may not be in a leadership role within their business, but I think this is a great episode.

Like don’t tune it out. Just because it may not be specific to you, I think you really can’t have an appreciation. I hear sometimes I talk to, you know, the average person, they go, oh, my boss is a jerk, or he does this. There are some exceptions. Most leaders are not showing up wanting to piss you off.

They’re [00:15:00] not wanting to make life miserable for you. They. They genuinely, they, they, the pressure they’re under and the burden that leaders carry that they stay awake at night is they need to make sure enough money’s coming in so they can pay that there. These livelihoods depend on them. They’ve got a spouse perhaps laying in that bed beside them who is sleeping soundly while they’re laying awake and they know that they need it.

They can’t burden them with them. So the pressure to make sure that they are taken care of, that they feel contented and, and safe and secure, wow. They’ve got kids that that are asking in demand. And wanting, and you know, I need this, I need that. I got these sports in the school and I’ve gotta pay for all that.

I’ve gotta look. So the pressure they’ve got, they’ve got clients that are looking at them for being happy. In some cases, some of our leaders have boards that they answer to, right? Yeah. Uh, stakeholders. So this pressure to keep everyone to your point, suddenly they go, you know, Steve, what the hell are you talking about?

Selfcare? Yeah. I got. All these other [00:16:00] people to worry about. I don’t have any time to worry about me ’cause I gotta keep everyone else. So that pressure is probably at the top of the list. How do I keep everyone else happy and their needs met as the leader?

Eric: Yeah. I, and, and I’m hearing a lot and, and, and this has been a recurring theme for a long time.

I think it’s, it’s a leadership challenge that. That that many leaders can relate to is this, uh, this fear of letting people down. Yeah. You talk about these expectations, all these people depending on, and the idea, I, if I don’t give a hundred percent, a hundred percent of the time, uh, I’m gonna drop the ball and someone.

Is going to lose, uh, you know, right. Like, I’m gonna disappoint a client, I’m gonna disappoint my team, I’m gonna disappoint my family. Um, I remember very distinctly in COVID, uh, when we were in, in full lockdown, uh, several of my clients, um, who were now had small children, uh, that were normally in school, but.

They were outta school now and they were doing whole remote school thing. [00:17:00] Right. Uh, for small kids. Like, like I got that, that would work for teenagers and up, even though that was really hard. My son really didn’t have a normal high school experience. Yeah. He lost two years of high school, uh, because of COVID.

Um. But small kids, like, can you imagine your parent who is now trying to keep your business going and now you’ve gotta be a tutor and you’ve gotta teach your kids. And I remember several of my clients feeling so overwhelmed in that period, and I get that we’re not there anymore, but it, it’s illustrative of how we, they feel this pressure from all fronts.

You had, you had a client saying to me, I don’t feel like I’m showing a fully for my business. Because I have to do, like, take care of my kids during the day and I don’t feel like I’m showing up very well for them. So now they were feeling like they were failing, uh, and letting people down on all fronts, which I think is a pretty common theme even outside of COVID.

Rob: Well, and, and you know, to go with that, you’re feel like you’re failing everywhere. You’re failing everywhere. And then to what your other point that you made is, if I and one wrong decision. The whole thing [00:18:00] blows up. I already feel like a failure. Failure. So now there’s a paralysis to make decisions and to do the things that need to happen within your business.

Because what happens if I make the wrong decision and the whole thing crumbles, I’d lose that major client and I have to lay off three or four people or, or whatever the case might be. Right? And so that pressure that they’re under is, is so evident, right?

Steve: And the stakes are high. It’s not lac, it’s not like we’re pretending that.

Get over it and why don’t you relax more? And you know, it is high. It’s, no, the stakes are high. Like, yeah, that’s, I gotta meet payroll. That is, that I gotta, I, I’m hiring someone from another position in another company. They’re coming here and I’m not sure we’re gonna be able to pay them. 90 days from now, I hope, I hope we do right.

And, uh, so there, there are massive decisions again. So again, that having that pressure valve, having, uh, maybe being able to go somewhere, talk to someone or [00:19:00] have a team around you where that pressure is not just on the leader is so, so vital. Yeah. Or else we’re, you know, we’re going to explode. The, the other thing that.

To that of course is the, the technology of the flood of information, the flood of information. I was with a a and the speed of that information. And the speed, yeah. I. When I, I grew up in the can’t AI fix all of that for us. I grew up, I grew up in the, in the eighties. I was a teenager in the eighties. My day, I didn’t have a clue what was going on.

Right, right. In the world. Wasn’t it? Wasn’t it peaceful? It was whatever was in so much better in St. John’s, Newfoundland. It was the Evening Telegram was the newspaper if it was in there.

Eric: Yeah, you knew

Steve: then. I knew, yeah. And if it wasn’t there, I didn’t know what was happening around the world or in some trend and now it’s just.

Con that constant. Uh, and so again, not to be too, too prescriptive, but to, to say ev at [00:20:00] some point we have to say no to the clutter that’s flooding our feeds, our minds. The news cycle. I was just gonna say, I was in a session with a team, uh, doing a, a leadership training session, and it was just when the tariffs were.

Uh, being announced it was that, that high, uh, emotional time. I know it’s still emotional for many now, but when it was first. You know, tariffs and yeah. And I could not keep anyone’s attention in the room. Everybody was on their phone. What’s happening now? What’s the latest news? What’s the latest update?

Uh, and we missed this opportunity to learn together, to be together because all of this other information was interrupting what mattered most.

Eric: Yeah, it’s this, uh, it’s this pressure to stay on top of it all. Right? Uh, again, as the leader, uh, think of just even the pressure that AI has added. I mean, yes. AI comes with benefits if used properly within your business.

But I know so many of our leaders, [00:21:00] I don’t, and I think it’s true for you guys too. They’re struggling with just w what do I do and how do I integrate it? And now I feel like now I’m behind the curve. And, uh, so there’s always this pressure to be on top of things. Uh, the pressure to have answers for everybody, uh, to be the one who can just keep going.

Right. Uh, we talked, uh, uh, we just recorded a show with you, Steve, talking about the grief and that that you’ve been facing on, on a personal front because you’ve been through a very difficult season recently, and that was a very powerful episode. If you haven’t watched it, uh, you’re gonna want to go back one and watch it because, uh, really, really powerful episode.

Uh, ’cause we approached it from, uh, a leader’s perspective. Well, how do leaders process grief? But I think grief that we don’t talk about leaders face loss. All the time.

Rob: Yeah,

Eric: right. Um, think of the relational loss that a leader most leaders experience at all levels of organizations where they invest, they see promise in someone.

They bring them onto their team, they [00:22:00] groom them, they invest in them, and then for one reason or another, that person moves on and. I know that it’s easy to say, just don’t take it personally, but let’s face it guys, like they

Rob: take it, we take it personally. They take it personally.

Eric: They, it can feel like rejection.

Yeah, it can feel like judgment that I wasn’t good enough or my business wasn’t good enough, or that we let them down and they, they want to greener pastures like this is an ongoing drain, brain drain and soul drain. That leaders experience, I don’t think, I don’t think we talk about, is there, there’s probably low level grief, uh, that leaders carry, uh, for the, uh, the lost people, the lost opportunities, the, the mistakes perhaps that have been made that they’ve recovered from.

Yeah. But often it’s like there’s no time to, we talk about, there’s no time to just even take care of ourselves. It’s just, well, there’s no time to process oftentimes all this stuff, so they end up carrying a lot of this baggage. Talk to me about recent examples without obviously revealing anything personal, but recent examples that made you kind of [00:23:00] sit back and go, wow, my leaders are stretched thin.

Steve: Yeah, my, the first, uh, client that comes to mind was the biggest loss was, uh, the demand for their product in the marketplace shifted dramatically. Mm. Was a certain product that was really doing well. Political landscape changed. Market changed. And now, uh, what was, it wasn’t easy money, but it was, it was easy to sell.

Mm. And now that. There was that loss of opportunity. Mm. And that was a punch in the, in the gut. ’cause the strategic plan was built around that. The, the numbers, the revenue, the sales, the even the team, like who’s on the team, was built around what was available on the market. That door closed and that leader was at a loss and.

EE even though we may not categorize that, uh, in the grief category, it actually is. Mm. Because it’s a loss of an [00:24:00] opportunity. Yeah. It’s a loss of a strategy and maybe even the loss of a dream.

Eric: Well, think of perhaps they were depending, like behind the business dream of expansion or like building this part of this new offer, whatever.

They had personal dreams tied to that, that this will allow us to do X, Y, Z. Right? Uh, this will allow me to do this for my team. This will allow, and all of a sudden the loss of that And who carries that?

Steve: Yeah.

Eric: The leader carries

Steve: it. Yeah, exactly. And while not everybody that’s listening today is a business owner, for those people who are business owners, that’s a unique kind of loss that.

That an employee may not experience directly, maybe indirectly, or a, or a vice president may, may not experience it directly, but the owner experiences that loss in a very deep and profound way. Uh, and again, addressing that is so vital and say, yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m grieving the loss of that opportunity and uh, I need to, uh, the wind has changed.

I need to adjust [00:25:00] my sails. Yeah. But still this is difficult and painful.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Rob: Yeah. I, I mean there’s a, a number that come to mind I think of, uh, and I, you know, go along with, with that. I, I know, uh, uh, I’ve got a client who, and this is where I knew, okay, we need to take a step back, uh, and, and revisit some things because they were literally tracking.

It wasn’t big sales, it was small. They’re just their, their MRR and their small clients. And they were looking at clients who were slowly, oh, that one’s gone. And every one of them, it was personal. What could I have done to keep them? Uh oh, new one came on. Oh, now they’re on a high. And, and I saw this emotional rollercoaster and I saw the unhealthiness in that.

Mm-hmm. Of, yes, you wanna celebrate wins, and yes, you want to recognize and learn from the losses, but when you are on an emotional rollercoaster where every. Sale. Every loss sale causes, that’s when it, it was the, it was the sign to [00:26:00] go that you’ve moved from healthy to an unhealthy way of looking at this.

And, and, and we need to take a step back from how in the numbers you are so that you can breathe for a second.

All: Yeah.

Rob: Uh, because of course what happens is in those contexts we become reactionary.

All: Yeah. Right? And

Rob: that’s exactly what this individual was doing, was they were becoming. Uh, uh, reactionary. Every single time something happened, a single sale happened in the business.

They were reacting to it, and, and it became unhealthy.

Eric: Well, this goes to what you were talking about, the paying of attention. The paying of attention. Yeah. At constant cost. Like we talk about, listen, profit margins mattered. Business. Of course they did. Right? We’re not you, you, you didn’t start a charity.

Now, if you did start a charity, that’s wonderful, but most businesses are not charities. They’re meant to operate at a profit and that’s how the business grows. So we talk about profit margin all the time, but we don’t talk enough about personal margin. Wow. Uh, and most. Most leaders are operating in the red when it comes to their personal margins.

They’ve overextended themselves. Yeah, they’re carrying too much. They’re [00:27:00] not carrying enough for themselves or they’re not filling their tank. And so when you are on like in a bankrupt position or in a overdraft. Position, uh, personally, little things do set you off. Yes. So you actually lose your center, lose your balance as a leader much faster.

Um, and this is where our work is helping leaders understand, like, no, the, the, the least selfish thing you can do in your business is take care of yourself, right? Because if you’re good, the more solid you are as a leader, the more solid your team will be. The more solid your business will be, the less.

Reactionary, like Right. You’ll be, you’ll be more regulated and make better and wiser decisions. Yeah. But, uh, I’m seeing, I dunno if you guys are seeing this, I’ve been seeing a lot more tears Yeah. In my sessions. Not all the time, but pretty consistently as of late. Um, and I remember one leader, he’s been walking through his, uh, uh, uh, his organization, uh, through a major reorg and part of that reorg that he’s driving.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It means laying off a a bunch of people that he [00:28:00] really cares about, and this has been happening for several months and he’s about to go through a second wave. It’s all necessary. It’s where the, what needs to happen for the business to thrive. But those are the types of tough decisions that leaders have to make.

And, and let me tell you, I don’t care, uh, how tough someone may look when they’re letting you go. Um, the vast majority of leaders that I know is the least favorite thing. That is the thing that causes them so much stress. Absolutely. So here we are in our session, we’re talking about it, and all of a sudden he just pulled back, uh, like, like this, you know, kind of pulled back away from the microphone or his ab.

His laptop and close his eyes. And I could tell that his eyes, his, his voice was quivering, his lip was quivering, and he, he was fighting back tears and he, um, proceeded to say, I wish I was more like this leader. Right? She seems able to just make those decisions and it’s fine. And I said, well, one, you don’t really know what is going on in her internal world.

I said, but I want you to know that your, what you are feeling right now is not weakness.

Rob: Yeah.

Eric: It’s [00:29:00] genius. You’re feeling empathy. If you are not feeling what you’re feeling, I said I’d be worried. Right. Yeah, that’s, we need to talk about that. Yeah. If you’re not feeling something about having to make these tough decisions, but there’s a real emotional toll and mental toll, um, that, and,

Rob: and it’s.

I love that you’re saying that, and it’s so important for us to recognize it. I think it’s one of the differentiators that we have as Rhapsody coaches. Mm. There are a lot of coaches out there who get just as fixated on the numbers as the owner because it’s all they know. Right. Right. They can coach your numbers.

Uh, one, one of the things that we have, we have, we have really intentionally, uh, leaned into mm-hmm. Is the ability to coach not just the business and the numbers, but the business owner behind the numbers. Yeah. And the ability. Right. So I, I, I think, and the team. And the team, and ultimately the team, but as we talk here, like the reason why, like, there might be other coaches even listening to, uh, uh, [00:30:00] this conversation go, I don’t have those kind of conversations with, with.

I, my leaders and, and it’s because we have been intentional. Yeah. And the, and the, and the clients who work with us, they know or they learn quickly that we’re going to ask those questions that get behind the curtain a hundred percent. Because we know that if the leader isn’t leading out of strength and out of hell, uh, wholeness is the right word there.

If the leader isn’t leading out a wholeness, it’s going to show up. And the business and the team and everywhere

Steve: else, it’s like the the coach on the sidelines of a professional sports team and. Say, telling the athlete, uh, score more touchdowns. Right. Score More touchdowns. Score more touchdowns. Right. And the pressure.

And now the, the wide receiver or, or whatever sport, you know, they’re, they’re trying too hard. They’re overthinking. Yeah. They’re, they’re, uh, making mistakes. They’re forgetting things in the middle of the performance. Uh, uh. Athletic [00:31:00] performance because their mindset is so shaken.

All: Yeah.

Steve: With anxiety and pressure and what are they thinking in the, in the, in the, in the stands and all of that.

And so a, a good coach, athletic coach helps that athlete get steady. So they can execute on the field and produce the numbers. Yeah.

Eric: Love that. And

Steve: we do the same thing with, it’s okay, the numbers are down, the numbers are down, the numbers are down, and the the now the owner is anxious and over-functioning and overworking and, and.

Angry or whatever it might be. And it’s making, you know, you’re making it worse. So, so let’s come we’re, yes, we are gonna talk about the numbers. Yes. We’re, we are gonna talk about improving the sales cycle. We are, we are gonna talk about improving the funnel, whatever that might be. But we are also going to say, let’s get you back.

Into a good, solid, courageous, strong, wholesome, whole wholehearted mindset. Yeah. So you can, you can [00:32:00] actually execute what needs to, needs to get done.

Eric: Yeah. I love to say that, uh, while most coaches pick a lane, we build a fucking three lane highway, right? Super highway. Uh, of focusing on the leader, the team, and the business, because all three are important.

And matter of fact, if you only coach to one of those dimensions, you may make things worse for that leader. Right? Because, uh, now things are out of balance, right? Right. Um, not that they’re ever perfectly balanced, but things are out of alignment, right? Uh, and to speak to the importance even in the world of sport, um, the coach that we work with.

Uh, Dr. Sherry Kane, who’s been on the show and we’ve, she’s done training with our team for years and, and we work personally with her. Uh, I meet with her, uh, regularly to kind of do a tuneup and make sure I’m staying healthy and, um, she’s one of the most significant influences in my life in terms of lots of healing, lots of growth.

But she’s also the, uh, the, the mindset coach for the Philadelphia Eagles. Amazing. Um, and because they understand, they’ve understood in the world of sport forever, like, or at least this last several decades, that it [00:33:00] doesn’t matter how, uh, you can have the most athletic, capable, talented, fastest, fastest, strongest.

Like she talks about she, how when she’s working, uh, doing her work for the team, she’s got an office there right at the stadium and how these. Big football players, often not, they don’t just have to like duck to get in the door, they have to turn sideways ’cause they’re so wide. Like, so she’s these big 300 pound behemoths walk into her office and they crumble.

’cause they’re, they have hurt, they have pain, they have challenges, they have tons of pressure on them and they understand that mindsets everything. And it was actually interesting, uh, uh, to watch the Super Bowl. Um, well at the. By the time this airs, it’ll be last year’s Super Bowl, but, uh, uh, where the, the, the Eagles won.

Yeah. And you could actually hear Sherry isms in some of the players that were interviewed. You could like, that got, got, got on Sherry. Right? Yeah. So mindset is, is such an important part. Let me, let me ask you this question. Mm-hmm. What, from your perspective, are leaders [00:34:00] tired of pretending about,

Rob: uh, that they’re limitless?

Uh, you know, right away I think of that there’s an old movie with, uh. Uh, Bradley Cooper, I think or so, right Limits that it’s not that old, but No, it’s, uh, it feels old, uh, uh, time feel old since COVID,

since COVID Time is the, the Conti. There’s pre COVID po. It’s a pre COVID movie, so

Rob: it feels

like it was.

There you go. Yeah.

Rob: Uh, but this notion of of being able to take a pill and just be limitless, and I think there’s a lot of leaders who are tired of pretending that they have unlimited. Energy, resources, emotion, uh, all of that. Uh, and they’re, they’re just done with that game. They don’t know how to get off that treadmill or that, you know, whatever.

But they want to, they’re tired of pretending it. Yeah.

Steve: Here. That is so good because we are not limitless. Yeah. We have limits. The o the other thing is more, more of a, they’re tired of pretending that time will fix the bad [00:35:00] hire. Right. Right. So you’ve, hi. I’ve hired someone. Oops. Time will just fix anything.

Time will fix that. Yeah. Like, uh, I’ll, well, yeah, I don’t wanna let that person go. I’ll, I’ll, uh, I’ll wait and maybe, maybe it’ll get better over time. And I feel like leaders are just because of the demands on them and because of the principle of getting the right people in the right seats Mm. Or the right people in the right job.

Uh, leaders are tired of pretending, uh. I’ll just keep waiting. Yeah. And so I, I, I encourage them. I say, okay, let’s be, let’s be slow to hire so that we’re more likely to get the right person in the organization. Yeah. And then on the other side of it, be quick to fire. Yeah. Like if they’re not the right fit, move, move quickly.

And so again, sometimes it is, um, they pretend. It’ll go that bad hire will go away. Yeah. I’ll just, I’ll, but they’re, they’re not gonna pretend anymore. Yeah. They’re, they’re making more courageous decisions.

Eric: Yeah. I think, I, I agree with you a hundred percent. I think they’re tired of pretending that their head’s in the [00:36:00] sand and they’re not seeing certain things, even though there’s days where they wish they could actually do that.

Yeah. And just pretend to not be seeing certain things because of the pressure of they’re under. I I think they’re also tired of pretending to, like, being the hero. Uh, I think sometimes their teams look to them and say, they know, they like being the center of attention. They like. Being the hu the person that did, uh, out hustles and help muscles, everybody and get shit done.

And, uh, I think a lot of leaders are actually deep down of what I’m hearing is they’re looking for relief. They’re, they’re wishing that the load could be, uh, more shared, uh, across the team. Uh, and, and part of that is a real mixed bag because in many cases the reason their team hasn’t stepped up, uh, is because they haven’t stepped back.

Yeah. Right. So they haven’t created the space and the, the systems and the processes and the mentoring. I, I challenge my leaders. This, uh, this is, uh, we’re recording this near the end of the calendar year. This is often when, uh, organizations are going through a strategic planning process. Right. And I challenge my leaders.

I’m like, where [00:37:00] is leadership development? Yeah. In your strategic plan, where is like, who are you going to be investing in and grooming next year to be your next gen leaders? Like, how are you doing that? We’re not doing that well enough. And so it’s part of the issue why it all ends up back on the leader’s shoulders.

Right.

Rob: You know, and, and tying into that is they’re, they’re, they’re tired of pretending they like being the firefighter. Mm. Right. Along with that, you know, the hero, the firefighter, they’re just, they, they are tired of it all being on them. In order to, to do that and yet go back to the, the fog, they know it has to change.

They don’t know how.

All: Yeah.

Rob: Right. They’ve got the, they’re, they’re not happy with where they are. They can imagine what it could look like. They don’t have those steps, those plan to be able to actually initiate the change that needs to happen.

Eric: Yeah, a hundred percent. Um, so we’ve been talking about a lot of the pain that leaders talk about.

Um, behind closed doors, again, we, in [00:38:00] many ways, uh, of course all, all three of us ex preachers, um, and I don’t know how many times I’ve had, uh, uh, you guys have seen this all the time. We have leaders who come to us for a business or a leadership issue they’re looking for help with. That’s what we do. Um, and, um, they, again, they come to us because of our ability to, to pivot.

Team leader business, whichever the business needs, but most, and off it’s all three. Uh, but, uh, they, they, they come to you and at first they’re kind of testing to see is it safe? Like they’re, they’re gonna throw out some kind of business problem. Um, that’s a real problem. Yeah. But in many ways, they’re testing to see, is this person safe?

Can I tell them more? Can I unburden myself of some of these, uh, challenges? And finally, uh, have someone I can talk to about these issues. And I, I often will say to him, listen. I’ve been taking confession for a really long time. Um, and we treat those conversations, those, uh, as a sacred space where they can say anything.

Um, and, and so the pain that we hear and the frustration that we’re talking about, of course, is leading to some interesting shifts [00:39:00] in how leaders are showing up and what we talked about. You talked about belief earlier, Rob, and the importance of challenging. Yeah. Uh, some of those old scripts that just don’t work, uh, and many of those old.

Frameworks are crumbling. Many are still trying to prop them up and hold them up long after they’ve like, are been useful. Um, and it’s like they’re duct taped and strung together with shoestring. Um, but a lot of those models are starting to come down. What are some of the biggest mindset shifts that you are seeing, um, in your clients?

Steve: If my calendar is full, I must be valuable. That’s, that’s, that’s a, that’s old lie. That’s old. Old script. That old. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, busyness equals importance and that’s deeply entrenched in the, in business culture that’s like. You get up early, you went from the beginning of the day to the end of the day, which is nine o’clock or 10 o’clock or whatever, to the point where people can’t [00:40:00] stop.

Eric: No, exactly. Even when they’re done, like, like they might have entered their day with a set of tasks to do, they finish the task and if they finish before right, a certain time, it’s like they get antsy, they get like nervous that I’m not producing all the

Steve: time. Right. And, and, and what I see the. The shift or the longing to shift, it’s difficult to let go of the old scripts, but the longing is to move into margin.

Mm. Where there’s margin bandwidth in, in, in the life. Yeah. So if you, if you are, are reading a book, whether it’s a paper book or on a Kindle, and if the entire page is filled with words with no punctuation. No paragraph, no indentation. I’m getting stressed just envisioning that it’s just filled with, it’s just filled with run-on sentences and dangling les.

That’s, that’s all, that’s all that’s in there. Then that’s, that is so difficult and so stressful to read. And yet if, if we, if someone was to read our life. If they were, if, if our, if our life was a book, they would see a life with no margins. Mm. And I think [00:41:00] leaders are saying, I’m tired of that. Yeah. That’s, I have to have margin.

I have to, whatever it is. I have to have my weekend, I have to take my vacation. I have to spend time with my kids and, uh, stop the insanity. I, I, I, I can’t live this way anymore. So I. I feel it’s still a struggle, but people are saying, I want margin in my life. Yeah. And I, I love to use the, the phrase time affluence instead of time.

Famine. Yeah. And building a life. That’s, that you have enough time to do what matters most. To have margin, to have space, to have rest, to play sports, to go on a trip and helping a, helping a a, a leader create margin is very rewarding. Work for a coach.

Eric: Well, I mean, LL, this podcast. The Delivering Richly Podcast was born out of the whole notion that there’s more to life than business and leadership.

Here we had, again, we are fundamentally, we are business and leadership coaches. That’s what we do. We help leaders perform better. Teams [00:42:00] perform better, businesses perform better, and yet, behind the scenes we keep hearing all these leaders. I’ve heard so many times, I don’t want my business to grow. I can’t manage the one I have now.

Yeah, that’s right. Exactly right. Uh, like my life is already feels often. Like the pressure is so great. So I know I’m supposed to grow my business. I know it’s supposed to scale, but that scares the shit outta me because of where my life is at. And so we’re hearing all these leaders talk about what does a rich life look like outside of this, right?

Yeah. And we began to experience our own journey. Uh, uh, along those fronts and, and, and here we are talking about this stuff. Yeah. So agree with you a hundred percent. And I

Rob: think this ties in, uh, we’re all hearing the same things. The script that is becoming louder and louder and more, uh, inviting into many leaders is that selfcare is not an indulgent, it’s strategic.

Wow. Right? It’s this notion, and we’re seeing this more, there’s so much out there now around mental health, all of that. And I’ll, let me use an example, because of a client who shifted, I have a. Line who [00:43:00] we work through it, we, we freed up their time. Their, their team is performing really well, and they’re getting, everything is moving great.

He comes into a meeting and he’s like, Rob, I’m feeling really guilty. Like I, I’m really struggling right now. Uh, and I’m like, well, what’s going on while the team, everything. And he starts telling me how everything is amazing and how everything is going great. And I go, what’s the, what’s the problem?

What’s the problem? He said, well, I’m on the golf course yesterday with some, uh. Some, uh, business, some, some contacts, and all I could think of is how unfair it was that I was playing golf right now while my team was doing all of this work and, and. Fast forward. That was a couple of years ago. Fast forward now, and when we jump on calls, he talks to me about the connection, like he’s doing exactly what he’s supposed to do as the business owner, but he no longer has that guilt around going for golf because one, he sees it as part of what his role is in the business, and two, he recognizes that, that at round of golf.[00:44:00]

Energizes and strength. It’s a self-care move. A moment that allows him to show up when the team does need him to show up.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, we’re talking so much about, again, margins, whether it’s personal margins, margins in a book. Yeah. Uh, right. Like your profit margins are directly tied to your personal margins.

Wow. If they lack

Rob: Yeah, that’s so true. If

Eric: those are lacking, you are leaving so much potential on the table, uh, because you’re operating sort of in the red personally all the time. Right. Uh, one Matt. Massive shift. I’m seeing, uh, and I think this is true, uh, right across the board, not with every leader, but I see it more and more is the shift from heroic leadership to honest leadership.

Mm. Yeah. And by honest, I don’t mean they’re being dishonest, but this no vulnerable, this vulnerable, authentic. Human, uh, that there’s a shift away from I need to be the one wearing the cape who can leap tall buildings in a single bound and go faster than a speeding bullet and all that shit. Right? Um, that it, [00:45:00] it’s a lot more honest.

Leaders are being more honest about their limitations. They’re being more honest about their challenges and their teams. In many cases where, where that shows up, we often say when, when you go first as a leader and you model. Something that’s healthier, more grounded, more centered. You give permission for others to do the same.

Yeah. If you are hustling and muscling your way through everything, and then you’re hearing your team saying, we’re at like, we don’t have the bandwidth, we are overwhelmed, and then you’re getting. Upset with that. Probably the first place you should look is what are you modeling? Yeah. Are you modeling and expecting that kind of performance?

That’s unrealistic, right?

Yeah.

Eric: Right. Yeah. Um, or is it just because you only know one speed and ask me how I know this shit? It’s not just from my conversations with leaders. Oh, it’s personal experience. It’s personal experience. Like I have operated in one gear, which is. Pretty much overdrive most of my life.

And it paid a heavy price for it. Yeah. And finally, in these, [00:46:00] um, um, you know, later years of my life, l ’cause I’m, you know, I’m not quite as old as the two of you are, but I’m, he’s pretty old though. Old. I’m pretty old. Old, old. I’m old up there. Right. Old. Yeah. Uh, learning that there are other gears that you can operate in and understanding.

The season that you’re in, the season that the business is in, the season that your team is in, and that we don’t need to be redlining the business all the time to be successful. You redline an engine for too long, it can operate there. It’s meant to operate there. That’s why your toter will allow it to go there.

But have you ever driven a car in the red at like 8,000 RPM for too long? Like o over time that engine is gonna, is gonna pay a price? Yeah.

Steve: I, I, I have another client coming to mind. That there are in, in the year cycle, there are just natural, uh, market slowdowns where the business slows. It’s not unhealthy.

It’s not bad. It’s just the, that’s how it works. Yeah, it’s, there’s some seasonal stuff there. In the slower time, this. [00:47:00] Client cannot gear down. Mm

All: mm

Steve: It’s all agitation and anxiety and we’re not busy enough. And how do we fill, fill the calendar And it’s, it’s, uh, the feed feedback from a coach that says, no, this is actually your time now.

Mm. To work on things that you normally won’t have time to work on in a. In your business when it gets busy. Yeah. You know, maybe you wanna develop a leader, maybe you wanna take systems, process, build a system. Maybe you wanna read, read a book. Maybe you want, you know, maybe you wanna, maybe you wanna go home, wanna, maybe you wanna go home.

Yeah. Uh, but again, you wanna tuck your kids into bed.

Yeah.

Steve: But again, unless someone has that feedback. And, and you might be getting feedback from your spouse, but that’s always difficult to take feedback from a spouse. Right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. You feel defensive, but in a coaching session you just, when a client hears it’s okay for you to slow down for a month and focus on other things, and that’s a really beautiful gift that we are able [00:48:00] to give to clients.

Eric: Let’s shift gears as we prepare to kind of wrap up this conversation. I’m really looking forward to our next conversation on leadership. This one has been about what leaders tell us behind closed doors. In our next conversation, we’re gonna be talking about where we see leadership going, what are the trends and uh, what are some things that leaders really need to be aware of.

But I’m curious what, when we we’re staying grounded in sort of the themes of what we’ve been discussing, uh, right now, uh, what are some things that our leaders are that, what are some things that leaders are doing right now that are working? To sort of reverse some of the patterns and the trends, uh, that we’ve been talking about.

Rob: I, I think for one of the things I’m seeing is more and more leaders are embracing the importance of culture. Mm. And they’re recognizing the, the need to get clear with expectations, with behaviors, uh, with, with what their team does. Uh, and, and that’s something the, I, we all get asked more and more to come in helping a, an organization take.

Their [00:49:00] value statements, for example, and actually shift those into behavior statements that are actually practically lived out. Yep. Uh, so I’m seeing more and more leaders recognize that that’s not kind of fluff, that’s not the woo woo stuff. The right, that’s central strategic. Key initiatives that an organization needs to have is a defined and well created and crafted culture.

Eric: Yeah. The culture will trump strategy every single day. Absolutely. Right. We talk about, uh, goals and strategy and what are we gonna do next year? Execution happens in culture. That’s the context. So if the culture is unhealthy, if the culture isn’t, uh, uh Right, it’s, it, it, it’s where you make or break. Yeah.

It’s, it really, really is. Well, what are you seeing, Steve?

Steve: Again, very specifically, I am seeing some clients removing numbers that don’t make sense. For example, um, someone, one, one company said they chose arbitrarily [00:50:00] we’re gonna be a $10 million company. Well, that’s great. Everyone, everyone said hurrah and 10 million, and it’s just a number that was grabbed outta the air.

All: Yeah. In the ether,

Steve: outta the ether. And, and now that number is, is looming. You know, we’re, we’re still so far away from that number. We’ll never get to that number. And that number has a place in the business that. It shouldn’t have. Right. It doesn’t even make sense. Right. It’s

Eric: a myth.

Steve: It’s a myth. Yeah. It’s some weird number, even number that, that’s really appealing and sexy, but it makes no sense.

So, so getting back to realism, uh, when it comes to what can this business actually. Produce. Mm. What’s the, what’s the real capacity? A more grounded approach. A more grounded approach. Yeah. That’s not setting yourself up for, for failure. I’m,

Rob: and let’s be vulnerable around this. Let’s be honest, we struggle with that way back at the beginning with Rhapsody, right?

Yeah. We, part of our thing was we are going to impact. [00:51:00] 10 million or a million. Yeah. Epic stories. Epic stories. I remember that. And so then we even went so far at one point where we were like, well, we need to

count them. We start counting and then that seemed so daunting. Holy crap. Like we’re all on 53,000.

Steve: We have to count to a million. I don’t know. I don’t know if I could do that. And the

Rob: energy we were putting into that until what we finally looked at, what. Uh, why? Yeah,

Steve: why can’t we just be a lot? Right? So the numbers, the numbers need to make sense, right? And, and, and if they don’t make sense, then they become tyrants in the business.

Yeah. And create emotional, uh, spiraling and anxiety. Unnecessary. Unnecessary and

Eric: self-imposed in many ways. Um, I’m gonna say this and then we’re gonna go to what you hope leaders will take from this conversation today. What’s one or two things? And we’re gonna do like lightning round before we land the plane.

But what I’m seeing, uh, a shift that really encourages me is more and more leaders, uh, building support systems. Mm-hmm. Um, that’s, uh, working with a [00:52:00] coach, and I know that may sound self-serving, but I’ll tell you, uh, we work with coaches. We believe in having that outside. Perspective, someone we can talk to to kind of balance things out.

But whether it’s a coach, some are embracing things like peer groups. Uh, I know that, uh, in, uh, at Rhapsody we try to bring our clients together, right? Yeah. Through different experiences. Why? Because I think, again, that loneliness and leadership, I’m the only one. What’s wrong with me carrying all this pressure?

And they often don’t have someone to talk to. Yes, it’s powerful to have a coach to speak to, but it’s also powerful to be part of c of a community. Of leaders who get it right. Uh, when you’re sitting there nose to nose with another leader and you’re share, you’re talking about some of your struggles, you’re talking to someone who gets it.

Yeah. And there’s nothing more powerful than that. So I think the, the, the, the shift towards, away from sort of this solo, uh. Act, this lone ranger type approach or right, or lone wolf type approach. And moving more towards, uh, I’m probably gonna need to find this outside of [00:53:00] my team. And they’re reaching out outside of their organization, uh, to find support is a really, that’s so good.

Encouraging chef. But let’s, let’s, let’s wrap up this conversation with one or two things that you really hope a leader that is listening to this. And again, if you’re not a leader in your organization or you’re not a business owner, share this episode with someone who is. And, uh, hopefully you’ve, you’ve, uh, you’ve gotten to maybe understand a little bit more about what, uh, the leaders in your life, uh, face on a day-to-day basis.

But gentlemen, what do you want, listeners, those that are viewing us through YouTube, what do you want them to walk away with today?

Steve: I would, uh. Say, uh, watch out for a, an attention deficit. Mm-hmm. So if you are paying attention, constantly paying, paying your, like you said, your spouse, your kids, your team, the business, your clients.

If you are paying attention, make sure you have people, someone paying attention to you. Uh, whether [00:54:00] it’s that peer group, a therapist, a coach, a friend, spending time on the golf course, don’t ignore you, ignore that at your peril. Yep. Now, now you are, you are giving attention that you, you don’t have now, you’re, now, you’re scraping the bottom of that.

Well, and that’s where burnout and all kinds of ugliness can happen. So get. Attention back. Let someone care about you, invest in you, listen to you get that intention, uh, attention bucket filled up. Love that.

Rob: Yeah. I, I hope that leaders, one of the takeaways from our conversation is that you can truly build a healthier way forward without losing effectiveness.

Yeah. Uh, it’s not an either or. Mm-hmm. It, it, it really is something you can do both. You can effectively be the leader of your business. And you can live a healthy, uh, self-care life.

Eric: Yeah. I love that. I, I would say, uh, I would add to that you’re not weak, you’re human. [00:55:00]

Rob: Yes.

Eric: Um, and you don’t have to carry. All of this alone, gentlemen, uh, this has been a great conversation.

Uh, I know we’re really passionate, uh, about this stuff because of the work that we do, but thank you for, uh, kind of shedding some light on what leaders tell us behind closed doors, and you’re gonna wanna make sure to like, share and subscribe to the show if you haven’t already. Thank you for joining us today.

Uh, we’ve got a great episode that’s gonna be following this one in the weeks to come about where we see leadership going and what leaders today really need to embrace and, and begin to look forward to and lean into in order to not just lead effectively, but live their richest life. So, uh, you can find out more about the podcast, including our Facebook community, uh, the Living Richly Nation by going to living richly.me, uh, and all things living richly live there.

And you can learn all about that. And if you’re listening as a business leader. Uh, we can, if you’re looking for help with your team, with your leadership, with your business, check out rhapsody strategies.com, rhapsody strategies.com, and you can get all the information you need, including how to [00:56:00] contact us to have a no pressure conversation about what that might look like.

Um, thank you for tuning in and, uh, until we see you next time, get out there and live your best life.

 

.