The Midlife Truth Bomb What Every Man Feels but Rarely Says Out Loud

E121: The Midlife Truth Bomb What Every Man Feels but Rarely Says Out Loud

[00:00:00]

Introduction and discussion of men’s struggles with vulnerability

Chris: That’s another issue with men is that we never go deep. And this is why, this is conversations important.

Rob: When I woke up and began that awakening there were friends that it didn’t resonate with, and they are not people that are necessarily in my circle today. We put these capes on and

Paul: We, on the outside, we look like that shiny penny, but on the inside we looked like that rusty nickel.

Rick: All of these conversations for me keep coming back to this misalignment that I feel Yeah, inside of this external me and then the real me.

Eric: We’re living somebody else’s script and we follow that like definition of what success looks like, only to get there and go, what the fuck? This isn’t working for me.

Hi, and welcome to the Living Richly podcast. We’re so glad that you’ve joined us again this week. We just recently crossed a big threshold, a hundred thousand subscribers on YouTube. Couldn’t do it without you, so thank you for your continued support. But I’m super pumped about today’s conversation. We’ve got five guys in studio today.

Leaders, dads, husbands all [00:01:00] successful in their own right. And yet some stuff not so successful. All of us have hit the wall, hitting the wall and have learned some lessons, and that’s what we’re gonna be talking about today when we talk about the midlife truth bomb, what every man feels, but rarely says out loud.

Gentlemen, welcome to the show. Thanks for having us. Great to be here. Yeah, it’s great to have Rick. Rick, you’ve been on you were on our 100th episode. You were the host. The host the most, the, that’s the host. I’m not sure with the most to be on this side of the equation.

Rick: Not nervous at all.

That’s great. Open with a hundred thousand. That’s great. Thanks Rick. Thanks. Is that okay? Really proud to be part of your hundredth episode. Even a small part. You guys did such a fantastic job in that show and that in that episode. And I’m very pleased to be back here again today.

Yeah, welcome brother.

Eric: Of course. Rob you’re a given, you’re you’re here. Like an old piece furniture, like

Rob: I’m here ’cause it’s my basement. Yeah. You have no choice. And I forced you. Yeah. I forced you. Yeah.

Eric: Chris Dore great to have you on the show, brother. We recently got connected.

We’ve done some AI work with some clients. Yeah. Some webinars together. [00:02:00] And you were part of a recent event here in Ottawa about vulnerability for men. And did a great job.

Chris: So welcome to the show. No, thanks for having me. Important conversation. I think this is going to be very impactful for anyone that listens.

Right on.

Eric: And for any Marvel fans out there this guy in, if you ever have a Zoom call with him, right behind him in his office is a big Captain America Shield. I know the first time I had a call with you, I’m like, I really this guy an extra immediately I connected

Chris: with him. Immediate. Now I have a Dr.

Do mask.

Rob: I’m all set. I’m set. And you had, you did see his gladiator out there now? Yeah. Yes. Did.

Eric: I saw

Chris: the vehicle

Eric: Yeah. Inspired by Captain America, so I knew it was meant to be brother. It’s, and Paul Rush for it. So great to have you in studio, sir.

Paul: Thanks for having me. I mean we we connected the same event Yeah.

As Chris was at, and it was an amazing event and I’m just happy to be here.

Eric: Yeah. This is

Paul: a great topic and something I’m very passionate about, right on. Thanks for having me.

Eric: So I put out a call on our mailing list and said, Hey I’m gathering five guys. We’re gonna be talking about the challenges of men at midlife and what questions do you [00:03:00] have.

Questions from listeners about midlife challenges

Eric: So these guys, I didn’t send you ahead of time, I’m gonna drop ’em on you right now and let’s see what, where they go with us. I’m gonna start with you, Rick. This comes from John and and I’ve paraphrase these a little bit just to make ’em a bit shorter, but John asked the question, how do I stop tying my worth to external success and start believing I’m enough without all of the accolades?

I thought I’d start with an easy one. Yeah, that’s a simple

All: Paul. Thanks John. What do you think, Paul? Thanks.

Rick: Genius. Genius. John would like me to answer, but he’d really like all of them answer this question. Thanks John. I, for me that’s it’s the reoccurring theme. So it is all joking aside, it, it’s, great starting point because it’s a lot of what I wanted to talk about today anyway. Yeah. And it’s this moment where recognizing that self-worth for me anyway was misaligned. So it sounds like John is either going through that as well or is starting to feel like, huh. And that self-worth being misaligned to, sorry, you started here.

We’re jumping right in [00:04:00] deep. Let’s go. When recognizing, and maybe that’s the wall that you just described in the intro, is like recognizing that self worth being tied to. Stuff, or for me, title and achieving what I thought was success and all this self worth that can be taken away. The, how do you recognize that, which I think is more John’s question. And then what do you do about it? I suspect we’re gonna talk a lot about that. Yeah. Today, but first. First step is likely where John’s at. And that’s just recognizing that that you, that realignment of self-worth is really important and is probably the starting point to everything else.

A around, personal development.

Eric: 100%. The reality is like so many people never even wake up to the reality that this isn’t good.

Chris: We’re brainwashed, right? You, it starts from the beginning, right? If you think about when we’re young and we’re kids it really starts to become, the patriarchy.

Those, the, those type of values get imparted upon us, right? Yeah. Like the boys don’t cry, all that kind of crap. It we get in, indoctrinated into it, basically at a young age, right? [00:05:00] And so to your point where you’re saying like, recognizing that is so key because I think a lot of people, a lot of men don’t recognize that piece.

And that’s just my opinion. I think that recognition piece that you’re talking about is really. Really important.

Paul: I also think though the definition of success changes and changes drastically as you go in life. You asked me the definition of success when I was 20 or 30.

It was money and titles and the fanciest cars and the best houses. That was my definition of definition of success. And it’s, now that I’m 50 it’s a little bit different. Yeah. Now it’s a little bit more peace and it’s been a little more time off and it’s, vacation time and spending time with my loved ones and it’s doesn’t have to do with money and things and external things.

And so that definition of success changes and I think a lot of people struggle with that.

Rob: Yeah. And for guys and I’m sure this is true for women as well, but for guys, going back to tying your self worth into the things you accomplish or you do, it’s one of the first questions you meet somebody new, a stranger, you’re an interact, [00:06:00] whether it’s at a networking event or whatever.

What do you do?

Chris: Yeah,

Rob: it’s one of those, it’s one of the first questions that we ask that question, ask one another, and we define even the value of the relationship with someone based on that often. And so it’s so easy to intertwine your worth with what you do and with what you achieve and all of those other things.

Eric: 100%. Chris, I’m gonna throw this next question from Sean, your way. And hit, I actually got a this question in different formats from many people. And Sean’s kind of encapsulated the best. How do I keep it all going without breaking apart when my life is demanding more than I feel I have to give.

Chris: You. That’s a great question. And the funny part is almost, I think to every question I can probably answer the same answer and that would probably be therapy. And I know you’re laughing, but No, that’s good though. I love that. But the, if you really want to, I always think of therapy is as kinda like the gym for the brain, right?

And I know there’s a [00:07:00] spectrum in terms of problems and issues, but the reality is if you really want to understand yourself and why you do what you do, and then to align your values with who you are as a person, I think therapy is one of those things where there was a stigma beside behind it. I’ve benefited so much from therapy.

Most of my family members that have committed to therapy believe in it. And then actually, I don’t think I would be as happy as I am today without it. So to, to answer that question, I’d say, if you can afford, ’cause I think, being able to afford therapy is a privilege in our society to a certain extent.

But if they can afford it talking to somebody out, if it’s not a therapist, talking to somebody about deeper things, because I think that’s another issue with men is that we never go deep. And this is why this is conversation important like. I’m pretty sure if we all walked, talked about our fathers I don’t know.

My father never did I don’t, like he was a big influence on me, but I’d probably say [00:08:00] I don’t really know him and he just doesn’t really know me. And that’s another issue, but. It’s a big one. It’s a big another one for therapy. And

Eric: We’re big fans of therapy. We yeah, we just recorded our show not long ago on how to do the work, and we had two therapists on the show giving some pointers and some tips.

Awesome. Even about how to find a good therapist. ’cause that’s not always easy. We’ve had our own coach and therapist on the show. She did a number of episodes with us. My mentor, Jim Harrington, that’s been on here doing the deeper work. Is so important. And when it comes to, I think carrying a big load where you feel like, I’ve got so much going on and I don’t know if I can hold up under the pressure.

Learning some of those tools and coping mechanisms and even getting clear on, clearer on who you are and what you stand for. You begin to recognize perhaps where you’re showing up too much and not showing up enough, and that realignment begins to happen.

Rob: And I th to Sean’s question, the way I would answer that when he says, how can I, my answer would be, you can’t.

You can’t keep it up, without eventually it blowing up. Yeah. That’s the reality. You can’t red line the [00:09:00] engine every day, all day and expect that engine to not at some point blow up. And so I think it’s changing that. The question itself, I get the question, we hear it all the time, but the truth, the harsh truth is you can’t, you can do it for a season, but then you, if at some point he’s gonna have to then, or those asking the question will have to then make the choice to do therapy or to do whatever else that they need to do, they can’t continue down that path without there being some kind of crisis.

Eric: Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Paul, I’m gonna throw this one your way. This is from Jolay. Joly’s a great guy. If you’re watching just stud you’re the man. But he asked the question, is it actually possible to grow something big? He’s talking about his business and still be fully present with the people that you love.

Paul: It’s hard. It’s hard. I’ve grown a big business in my real estate business and I’ve lost a lot along the way. I wasn’t present in my ex-wife now, but I wasn’t present with my wife at the time and lost that I wasn’t present with my kids. I tried to be as much as possible, but when you’re trying to [00:10:00] grow a big business, it’s really hard.

And I think the one thing that I’ve learned in one transition that has happened for me is it’s now starting to become about me. It’s not about everybody else. I tried to make sure everybody was happy. I tried to make sure it was all about everyone else, and I was wearing myself out thin. I wanted to grow this big business.

And I don’t know if it was ego driven, if it was personal driven. I don’t know what it was, but it was I’m very fortunate that I’ve grown a big business, but at the time I’ve lost a lot doing that. So you have to take care of yourself. I felt guilty going to the gym. I was a professional hockey player.

When I retired from hockey, I was in tip top shape. I let that go really quickly. Wasn’t eating properly, I wasn’t taking care of myself. I got into, through my injuries, lots of drugs and alcohol and things like that, and I just wasn’t taking care of myself because building this big business meant so much to me.

Yeah. That I lost a personal connection with people. I lost. More importantly, I lost a per personal connection with myself. Yeah. And I let myself go. And because of that, I. We’ll [00:11:00] get into this, but it’s a lot of times people will think, oh, I, I have all this shit together.

And the truth is, you mentioned at our last event, Eric, you’re like, we put these capes on and we’re on the outside. We look like that shiny penny, but on the inside we look like that rusty nickel and it’s true and it’s true. And for the longest time, and I’m starting to make sure myself I’m more important.

I’m taking care of myself. For the longest time that Rusty Nickel was dying. Yeah. And just dying inside. To answer the question it’s really hard when you’re trying to grow something big, but never lose sight of the fact that you are number one. Yeah. You have to make yourself number one and take care of yourself.

’cause if you’re not taking care of yourself, you’re losing everything around you. And I lost what I didn’t wanna lose. So powerful. And the best

Chris: You is also the best for everyone else too, right? Yeah. And I think we forget that there’s a reason, there’s a

Paul: reason they use that analogy on the plane when the oxygen mask comes down, put your own on first.

You’re sitting with your young kid, you’re, you feel like, oh, I gotta put my mask on my kid. But the problem is, if you don’t take care of yourself, you can’t help [00:12:00] people around you. That’s right. And most entrepreneurs, and I’m not gonna pigeonhole everybody, I can only talk about myself, but most entrepreneurs never put their own mask on first.

And that’s what you lose sight of. And that’s what I lost sight of.

Eric: We talk, this entire show really it’s essence, it’s about helping people get clear on who they are, what, who, what they stand for, and living a life that’s aligned to that as opposed to society or family or whatever. Like the expectations the shoulds, musts and have tos, right?

Where we’re living somebody else’s script and we follow that definition of what success looks like, only to get there and go, what the fuck? This isn’t working for me. Like to your point, I’m, I got the things, I did the things, but there’s so much pain along the way, and I think it’s that.

Discovery of what does my path look like? What does success mean for me, and does it have to be a big business? Does it have to be at the cost of other things that are really important to me? We’re big fans by the way. We’re firm believers that you can build you can build a great empire and build a great life, but [00:13:00] you have to do that very deliberately.

Rob: And the order in which you do that is critical to what you said, Paul, right? Yeah. It’s if you lose sight of, you keep you as the center and hell yeah. You can build something significant and big as long as you’re keeping that order in the right perspective. Balance. Right balance. It’s that balance.

Paul: Integration. Yeah. But balance. What’s the first thing that goes when you’re trying to grow a big business? Your

Rick: balance. Like your balance. It’s

All: it,

Rick: yeah. Running at redline, right? Yeah. To your point, running at redline, it is sustainable for a little bit of time. Yep. But then you start to find those accolades you find.

Likely in the wrong places. So it’s this, just this self perpetuating machine that’s designed to keep us in this loop to keep us at red line. And so I think releasing that notion without shame, or without guilt, or without okay, it got me where I am. For me, it was a lot of survival mode and more instinctive than anything else.

And not even recognizing I was at redline for likely forever, but okay, I don’t need to, I don’t need to have shame in that necessarily. It did get me through some scenarios, but now waking up and recognizing [00:14:00] that, okay, that this is not healthy. It was me who was, even though it looked like, I was putting myself on the pedestal, of course I wasn’t, I was also the rusty nickel inside, but yet was trying to hold it all together and have the look and the image and the things going back to the self-worth tied to the wrong stuff.

Yeah. And all these things that could be taken away if you, if that engine blows up. Yeah. A hundred percent.

Eric: Last your question and then we’re gonna go back to talking about masks, but not the kind you were referring to. We’re gonna talk about the masks that we wear, but Rob, I’m gonna throw this one your way.

This is from Matthew Rippa Young Matthew’s been a three time guest on our show and almost ready to get the robe. And two more. And he gets the bathrobe. Yep, absolutely. His question was this, what do you do when life deals you something you can’t fix? And positive thinking just isn’t enough.

Rob: Yeah positive thinking almost never is enough. Right away. Makes me think of Ben Bergeron. We’ve had on the the show, the most successful CrossFit coach in the world, and he talked about the mindsets and that op the I won’t go through them all there. Go watch [00:15:00] his episode and you’ll see it.

But he talks about that the, you’ve got the pessimist, you’ve got the positive thinking is really just your third mindset. It really is about moving into the realist mindset, and then every once in a while into the warrior mindset when the positive thinking is enough.

The first thing I would say is when you are feeling like you’re drowning, the best thing you can do is ask for a lifeline. Ask for somebody to ask for help to raise your hand to to express it to someone. And and that’s the, I would say the starting point, but it’s getting into that realistic mindset.

Of saying, okay, this is a shitty thing that’s going on now what am I gonna do about it? And instead of just trying to be positive all the time.

Eric: Yeah, I love that. I think the the question of how is this impacting me and what am I going to do about it? Yeah. Puts you into action mode as opposed to victim or survivor mode.

Which is really key. Gentlemen, I want us to jump in and thank you for your questions. Those were awesome. And hopefully you found our answers [00:16:00] helpful. I wanna talk about your masks, the masks that we’ve worn and that perhaps you we still wear some, don’t we? But at your peak, at the peak of success or the peak of where you found yourself, what did that mask look like for you?

Discussion about wearing masks and false personas

Eric: Maybe

Rick: Rick,

Eric: I’m

Rick: looking right at you. So it’s funny I read that a little bit of prep, right? But I read that and thought, holy shit, I have to take my mask off for this podcast, right? And it’s scary. So I feel like, for me anyway, I might still be in that, just in that moment of recognition that I’ve been wearing a mask and I, and a few masks.

And again, going back to previous comments like the not necessarily shame filled, but that, that peak for me is really recent. And going, okay, I’ve been wearing this mask that was inauthentic. It wasn’t making me whole to, to your point, Paul, it wasn’t fulfilling me, which meant I wasn’t being the best version of myself.

But that mask for me was a lot tied to status. It was a lot tied to this, I had to get somewhere if I’m asking where I was trying to get to, but I had to get there. [00:17:00] I’m trying to get there. Don’t know where there is, but full tilt man at full tilt forever. At at the, at now extreme costs of that with physical health and family and and it wasn’t trying to get somewhere with purpose.

I don’t believe it was just trying to achieve this status goal. So those masks for me were really about being. Very corporate, very even what on a jacket? That’s, is that really me? Like I, I, am I actually really connecting with people? Is that where my purpose is? And so this corporate version of me hasn’t actually served me as well as the authentic me, which is, yeah, I really appreciate people and connecting and communicating with humans.

And interesting enough, I know we’ll get more into the results of this, but as I’ve taken off the mask, I’m starting to attract people that are more similar, which is giving me those resources all the way back to some of the listener questions about what do we do about this? And for me, it’s just been like, huh, I’m now finding a tribe.

I’m finding some other humans that are, have been through the same things. So taking off the mask, for me, the mask was really this inauthentic version of who I [00:18:00] thought I needed to be from a status. These other men predominantly that I would put on the pedestal go, I gotta be like them.

I need the car, I need the boat. Need the cottage, need the thi the things, very stuff driven. Yeah. Very stuff driven. Title this. And then you’re there and go, oh shit, what have I actually left behind? Which a lot of it was me.

Eric: Yeah. You do, you, you do all the things. Like we said, you, you check all the boxes only to get there and find is this it?

Like scary though. Yeah.

Rick: But I’m in that right now. I’m right there taking off the ma leaving that I was like, huh. Yeah. I just found out there’s wheels, let alone I coming off the bus.

Eric: Brother, welcome to the Forge. Yeah.

Paul: Welcome to the Forge. The beauty of taking off the mass is I use my three Ps is purpose, passion and peace.

And doing something like this is now my new purpose. It really is. I’ve, for the longest time I always thought people wanted to see me on the pedestal. ’cause I’m a real estate agent. I’m the top of my game and this and that. No one gives a shit. That’s the truth. No one gives a shit. Yeah.

They don’t give a shit. But, the thing we did the other day with Susan? Yeah. I had more people reach out to me and say, holy shit, you’re [00:19:00] human. Yeah. And I’m like, I’m more human than you’ve ever heard of. It was one time I was up on stage, I was at a real estate conference. There was like 5,000 people there, and this girl gets up and we’re talking about some of the things we’ve done and this and that, and this girl gets up and she’s like, how do I be you?

I literally broke down crying and I was like, you don’t wanna be me. And it’s the first time I, first time ever I’ve took, I took my mask off and I showed who the real version of me really was, and people were like. I said to her, I was like, I’ve been in and outta rehab for decades. I was a professional hockey player and when I retired from hockey, I was so broken that I was addicted to painkillers and I just never stopped.

And it got to the point where I was taking more that would kill a small horse. People didn’t believe I was still alive, and I, I, no one ever knew that story ’cause I hid it all. ’cause you don’t, you’re not gonna list your house and sell your house with me. If you knew I was in and outta rehab for drugs and alcohol.

If I had problems, if I was a bad human and, and I told the story when I was up on stage, I’d look in the mirror and I couldn’t even recognize myself. I was just, I saw myself as a devil, as like a [00:20:00] devil. And it wasn’t until I took off that mask and I’m like, I’m more than that. I’m more than that.

Like I’m a person who’s got a lot of purpose, a lot of passion, and I’m finally, for the longest time, and it took a long time, I’m actually at peace.

All: Yeah.

Paul: At peace. Yeah. And it’s, he’s, some people say, what I have is a gift, and truly the gift is it allows me to have more of a platform to help more people.

And so that’s what I, that’s the gift I’ve been given, is not that I, I have a fame or I have money or that No it’s because people will listen to me on things like this and actually be like, wow, I can listen to this guy. And he’s actually normal and human. In fact, he’s broken. Yeah.

Eric: Yeah. And people it’s interesting. We oh, we were just talking about this before the show up in the kitchen you and I, Chris and saying, when someone goes first. We talk about the importance of going first and when someone is willing to be real, take the mask off, show up as their authentic self, be willing to, and guys, we’re not good at this, right?

We’re, again we’re conditioned from young men to just rub dirt on it and, hustle your way through muscle, your way through, don’t cry all this [00:21:00] shit which are all lies, right? But when someone finally just steps out from the shadows and said, this is who I am and this is what I’m struggling with, the overwhelming response is not judgment.

It’s not condemnation, it’s usually every like a sigh of relief. Others going. You really? You too. It’s almost so I’m not like the only one that’s struggling with all this shit. I think men carry so much shame about our flaws, our inconsistencies, our weaknesses, our struggles and shame.

It’s power is, it’s in the secret. Because the reality is you think you’re the only one, and as soon as you start talking, you realize you’re not the fucking only man that’s struggling with this shit. These things are universal struggles. And the purpose of having the conversation is to, for anyone who’s listening to go, there’s hope for me.

Paul: Eric, when I told that story about having 5,000 fans in the air fans, people in the stands listening to me speak, and afterwards, I would say a thousand of them. Came up [00:22:00] to me to shake my hand. Wow. And just say thank you. Yeah. And it wasn’t, thank you for telling us how to list a house.

It was like, thanks being human. Yeah. I struggle with alcohol as well, too. I struggle with this too. I struggle with this too. And I was like, holy crap. This was the best speech I’ve ever given.

Rob: Yeah. The worst piece of advice I ever got was from a guy who I consider my greatest mentor and in so many other ways influenced my life.

And this was back in my preacher days, just when I was starting out as a minister. This would’ve been 1982 1986. And he said to me, he says, Robbie says, people don’t come here to hear about your problems. So every time you get on that stage, you make sure that you are giving, like you’re giving hope.

So you just talk about all the good. And it was the worst piece of advice, of course, but that was the mindset. Certainly, hi. His generation, right? And the mindset of many for men in that world, in that en environment was you Hockey players are the, you’re such a great example of this because hockey players, we celebrate a guy [00:23:00] playing, oh, he’s pushing look at all the announcements coming out right now in the injuries right after the Stanley Cup.

We celebrate all that stuff. But Robin Lenner says he’s gotta take time off for mental health and depression, and he’s weak. And everybody’s oh, don’t bring him on your team.

Chris: Yeah. It’s right. Like it’s fucked up. It’s

Rob: absolutely, it’s such a messed up mind. A way to think.

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Eric, when you talk about the masks, you’re, we wear, did you get that from, there’s a documentary, have you seen the Masks?

We Wear Documentary? No, I have not. Beautiful documentary about exactly what we’re talking about and then what you said, Rob. What, when we’re talking about, healthy masculinity or toxic positivity. It always reminds me of Ted Lasso and it’s such a good show for numerous reasons. Yeah.

’cause it actually maps out that process because you have Ted who’s hyper positive, but you underlying, there’s those mental health struggles. And I thought that was, came to mind when you guys were talking about that.

All: Yeah. For me,

Chris: like I was 38 when I just had a deep feeling something was wrong.

Like I couldn’t put my finger on it. And I think a lot of people feel that way where [00:24:00] there’s like. I didn’t, was it, sorry? Is it like you felt something was wrong, something wrong with you, wrong with life? I would

Eric: say, how would

Chris: you define it? Everything. Okay. I, I didn’t, I just felt like I was living somebody else’s life.

Like I wasn’t being authentic to myself. And I think, it took in all honesty the failing of a relationship that was really meaningful to me, to give me that insight. ’cause it just, I was doing stuff that, the stuff that we’re brainwashed to do, to try to be successful, to get, awards and stuff, I was doing it just ’cause I wanted to be seen.

So if you live in a household with a parent or parents that, that, achievement is how you were seen. Yeah. And so I struggled. I did all my whole life. I was trying to be seen by them to the point where, and I start realizing that didn’t matter. They didn’t really care. There was a whole bunch of issues there, but there’s. Why was I doing it right? And I think to the point was, it was that point 38 where I was kinda like, had to [00:25:00] reconstruct myself. Like that concept of unlearning.

It’s a big one. And I was like, if I think about all the mistakes, you talk about shame, right?

I think. I don’t know if there’s any men out there that are our age that doesn’t carry a bit of shame with them based upon what we have done in the past, potentially. Because of the messages that we actually received. Yeah. And ’cause it was always good to step on people in a sense, right?

It’s to be the best, like to achieve, be a man, blah, to be a man, right? Yeah. And it’s so silly, right? Yeah. And I think that it’s really important for us to have these conversations because you mentioned tribe, right? And Eric about, when somebody says, yeah, me too. I think a lot of men suffer in silence.

Yeah. And I had a friend in the, in March, somebody that meant the world to me pass away, committed did suicide. I still don’t get it and I struggle with it. I think about ’em every day. And I mentioned this at the event. I, it’s hard. Like it’s, and I think about how many other people.

So suicide rates are so high amongst [00:26:00] men.

Eric: Yeah,

Chris: it’s crazy, right? So anyways, like so many things to consider. I was curious about everybody here. What point did you have that tipping point? Yeah. Like Paul, I know you’ve gone through a lot. Yeah. So what was your tipping point? What made you like change?

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Paul: I’ve had a few, I’ve had a few tipping points. Retiring from hockey, I had to come back. I had no education didn’t know what to do. My mom was a realtor, so I’m like, oh, maybe I’ll be a realtor. I had to come back. I had to buy a house, get cars, ’cause I was away playing in different places.

Because I’ve hadn’t been in Ottawa for so many years. I had to learn to meet people again. So the stress level was through the roof. And I had to succeed at massive levels, quick in order to in order to, put myself on the map and have some money for my family. And I tell the story. And my first two years in the business, I was so successful that I had, I made $750,000 in my first two years.

And I was $350,000 in debt. In debt. Do you know how that feels? And I remember one year it came down, I got my a bill in the mail. [00:27:00] And I had no money to pay it. The company I was working for said, we’ve had such a good year, I’m giving everybody $2,000 bonus. Only way I was able to pay that bill.

Wow. So the stress and I didn’t tell anyone I suffered in silence. I, yeah, I didn’t tell anyone that I was so deep in debt and I just, I paid off that bill and I just, kept going to work, kept going to work, but at the same time I was losing my family. Yeah. I was losing my wife, I was losing my kids.

I have three young kids, or stress, I had three young kids. So the stress at that time, I was popping pills like crazy ’cause I was still in pain for my hockey days. And then, when those pills weren’t working anymore, I said, you know what, I need to get a higher buzz so I’ll get alcohol involved.

So now I’m doing pills, I’m doing alcohol, and in, in 2009 I was working for the biggest company in the world and I was the biggest aid number one in the world. And I was in rehab. I was in rehab, so messed up, and I thought that’s what I had to do to be successful. I just kept pushing and pushing.

And in my biggest thing was in, and I tell the story, you talk about suicide in 2016, I tried to kill myself. Yeah. That’s how low I was. Like, that’s how low [00:28:00] I was. But people looked at me like, he’s so successful, and here I am looking in the mirror with a mountain of pills in my hand thinking I just can’t do this anymore.

Yeah. And I literally swallowed them all. And it was by a freak of nature how my door got open and how the paramedics got to me within seconds of me not being here anymore. That was my turning point.

All: Yeah. Wow. That

Paul: was my turning point. And that was 2016.

All: Yeah.

Paul: That was my turning point. And that’s when I was like, holy, I can’t do this anymore.

I can’t live for everybody else and not myself. Yeah. And as I looked in it, and I’ve, there’s been working and working on myself to the point now where, I look in the mirror and I see a flawed human. I see a flawed human. But I see a beautiful human. I love that.

And I’ve never had that before. I’d see a fucking monster. Yeah. That’s what I saw as a monster. Didn’t wanna be here anymore.

All: Yeah.

Paul: And I was, I’m people, but people didn’t see that. People saw me as this really successful person. I’m like, so that’s why I said define success. Get clear.

I got a million bucks in the bank, but I’m trying to kill myself. Looking in the mirror. Is that [00:29:00] success? That’s not yourself. By your own values. Values. But now success to me is doing something like this. Yeah. This is success. This is success, having some peace in my life is so success.

Like going on a trip and just feeling at peace is, that’s success to me now. It has nothing to do with things or money. I don’t have fancy suits. I don’t have fancy cars, but I have a life that I’m proud of.

Eric: Yeah. And what’s that worth? What’s that worth? What is powerful man? Powerful story. And I think all of us have a version of it.

I’m curious Rick you mentioned earlier you feel you’re like on the the early stages of this where you’re questioning some of the scripts that have run your life some of the values that you have embraced, some of the models that you followed. In terms of examples of this is what it looks like to be successful what are some things that have been really significant in waking you up to that reality?

Rick: I think there’s also some, for me, there’s some relationship things happening right now that are really powerful. But at the exact moment I feel like [00:30:00] I’m where I’m supposed to be both in leading some of my. Close circle of friends through and being vulnerable, and they’re seeing that same vulnerability.

But then also somehow the universe is giving me people like you guys at this moment in my life who are, who I consider successful. Yeah. But but not so much because of the stuff and the things in the car and the dollars in the bank, but now successful because of that vulnerability.

‘Cause of that. So these things are happening at the same time, which is, I don’t take it for granted at all.

All: Yeah. And I’m

Rick: trying to share that message outbound, which I think is it’s true leadership. Like what you’re talking about, Paul, that’s to me is ultimate leadership. Yeah. Going all the way back to the people that we lead in business, the people that we lead around us is that’s leadership is to stand on stage or hear and be human.

Yeah. And say, here’s the mask, here’s where I’m at this, I’ve got a realignment of a whole bunch of value system. And all of these conversations for me keep coming back to this misalignment. That I feel

All: Yeah.

Rick: Inside of this external [00:31:00] me and then the real me. And that’s caused a whole bo like, like for me, thankfully not as extreme.

I don’t wanna say thankfully, sorry, but not to that point, but going there. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, man, like going there and whew. So yeah. Being able to wake up to that now. To recognize that now it’s too

Paul: late.

Rick: Really, I don’t take it for granted. Yeah. So even being here today, I don’t take it for granted.

Yeah. But that so that misalignment feeling that misalignment. And then for me, I was always avoidance. So I would fill a calendar like you wouldn’t believe. And you talking about red line like that, that my. Engine could go to 15,000 RP m like I could just red line like you wouldn’t believe, which seemed like a badge of honor.

All: Yeah.

Rick: Like 20 jars a day. Everyone else would be going to bed and I’d be like, oh, perfect. You’re all asleep. Wait, Albert are you? Wait, I’m more what? Kinda weird. Yeah. Measuring contest was this forever so weirdest, pissy contest. So for me it was just pure avoidance of the reality of this [00:32:00] unhappiness, this rusty nickel, this I could just fill the calendar.

And then of course, like there’s a lot of co we can assume all the costs that come with that. So yeah, I’m right in it right now. Just waking up to what I need to do for me and that realignment and how that should go moving forward. I’m in it.

Eric: Love it. I love it.

I’ve been in the people helping business a really long time like Rob, former pastor. So I heard a lot of confessions, people opening up, bearing their soul about what they’re going through. And in our coaching business, literally we’ve talked to thousands of leaders now, hundreds of different organizations.

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Eric: And the story and the pattern is very similar. It’s similar to my story, similar to your story the stages and the actors may change, but the themes are pretty consistent that it usually takes hitting the wall in some fashion and usually pretty hard or something pretty significant to be happening for the aha moment to happen.

But the statistics are frightening, guys. According to this one study 70% of the population never [00:33:00] wake up. So they’ll go through the same shit that we’re talking about here. And so you talk about being grateful. I’m I felt that when you said that because I could have been part of the 70% and still continuing to spin my wheels, continuing to live unhappy, continuing to posture and try to prove shit and Right.

It’s, the whole world’s become about the highlight reel. But we’re not doing enough behind the scene footage today. This is all about behind the scene footage.

Rob: And this is why things like the foundry are so critical and so important. I loved what you said when you said, as you’re wrestling with this, as you’re trying to lead the way even with your community of friends.

Because I know that I have friends that it didn’t, when I woke up and began that awakening there were friends that it didn’t resonate with. And they are not people that are necessarily in my circle today. Because one of the things that I recognized was that the only way that I was going to figure this out and not end up being another statistic was to [00:34:00] surround myself with people who I could pour into and who were willing to pour into me.

Yeah. And that means letting go of friendships, relationships. There are so many individuals that we keep in our life because we think we should or we have to or we’re obligated to. And to release from that. And that’s what I love about what you’re doing with the Foundry, was this idea of and it’s not the only group.

It’s there’s, I don’t care whether somebody, I’d love to see them join the foundry. I don’t care at the end of the day, what I care is that they find that circle or that community that they can. Figure this journey out with?

Eric: Yeah, we were just with at a gathering last night, and I know this is being recorded ahead of time, so the timing and chronology won’t work for our listeners, but this is very fresh on our minds.

And we had a great evening, just a bunch of guys getting together at a restaurant, getting to know each other most didn’t know each other before they entered the room. I knew probably at least 80% of the people there in some way, and some was meeting for the first time. And at one point I was asked to explain what’s the foundry about and what’s their [00:35:00] vision behind it?

And I said, really, it comes down to this. We’ve been enjoying this great conversation, talking about business, talking about raising kids, talking about some of those challenges and everything else, and having a great time. I said, but I know enough people around this table to know you’re all sitting here with a lot of private pain.

And most of you have nowhere to talk about it. You don’t have anyone to share it with. And so you carry it alone. You suffer in silence. And the stats, you talk about suicide stats, four out of five suicides in Canada are men over 50, three out of four in the us And that’s because men do not do community very well.

We talk about babes, we talk about booze, we talk about blood sports, we talk about business. We don’t talk about the real shit that we’re suffering with. When we’re all alone and no one else is watching. The mask comes down and we’re crying in the mirror with a deep sense of self-loathing going, I’m a fuck up, I’m a loser.

And, that’s what most

Chris: men experiences. I do. Sorry. But to your point, I think also men don’t get asked, right? I can’t recall. [00:36:00] Probably 40 some years of my life, no one ev everyone assumed I was okay. No one ever asked me, are you okay, Chris? Nobody, like I, that’s shocking, isn’t it?

And I don’t know if that’s common for everybody or for men across the board, but the fact that everyone assumes that you are good. There’s that natural assumption that you’re okay and you’re doing great. Like my parents never asked me because they always thought Chris is good.

He’s always, he’s smart. He’s, he’ll get things done. He’s always great. Never. Like friends never ask, right? Like it’s ’cause we live at this superficial level. So that’s what I love about the foundry, and

Eric: I love what you’re saying. I think it’s harder for successful guys because you’re good at certain things, people assume you’re good at all of it.

And so it, it becomes even more difficult. Paul, you wanna say something?

Paul: Yeah. I was just, I always felt like I had a superpower and my superpower was real estate and helping people buy and sell houses. And it wasn’t until recently that I realized my superpower is vulnerability.

It’s v it’s [00:37:00] vulnerability, and be able to help people. So now, instead of help people buy and sell houses, I help people by telling my story. And, you’re I wish I was in your industry because. Selfishly, you helping people is helping you. Yeah. Yeah. So I selfishly, every time I help someone with just telling my story and someone says, you really helped me.

I’m like, that helps me.

Eric: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. That helps me. And so my superpowers being vulnerable. It was at the last event we did with Susan that I was a little bit nervous. I don’t get nervous to talk in front of anyone. I could see it. I could see it. I was nervous to get on stage and just tell my story. Yeah.

Because my story I’m telling a snippet, it’s fucked up. Its like, it’s fucked up. It’s, I should write a book. It’s so fucked up. Yeah, you should, but you gave me permission. You don’t know this, but you gave me permission to be vulnerable on that stage when you said, we all put these coats on and, we look shiny on the outside, but we’re just broken on the inside.

I, when you said that to me, I was like, okay, I can tell my story. I could be vulnerable and tell my [00:38:00] story and I probably helped more people that day. That made me so proud of Yeah. More than I’ve done in long, a long time. Yeah. Like just knowing that you could help someone just with your vulnerability just by saying, I’m fucked up man.

Look at me. And it helps people. Yeah. Like I, you’re, I wanna be in your profession. Mine sucks somehow. You will. We’ll talk,

All: there might be

Eric: an opening. Yeah.

Rick: Go get him a foundry t-shirt. Yeah, you’d be great. You going really first in that and what we’re talking about is a, it was a live event and you going really first then open the door for everybody else and probably opened the door. I wasn’t at the event. Got to see clips and then that.

Holy shit. Okay. And it sparked conversation even in my circles. Yeah. It sparked conversation at our office with other guys that I work with that I don’t know that well. But men don’t we’ve never really learned emotional safety.

Eric: No.

Rick: Not to get, you’re talking about therapy before. This is new for me too, starting to do [00:39:00] some therapy.

I’m like, huh, shit. Never really thought about it that way. I never learned this. And it’s not, it’s nothing negative of my childhood or the rest. It’s just, we just don’t do that very well. And we’ve never really had to learn or really even had a reason for why we need emotional safety. So those moments and this connection and putting a group of guys together.

When you put us in the same room, of course we started talking about business and what we do and the thing, and then you set the stage again. You go hold on. You’re all dealing with shit. Yeah. And then you, there was a like 180 degree shift in the conversation. We’re, we, were emotionally safe,

Rob: we’re good liars.

We are good liars and we’re men. Of course, right? Chris, when you said isn’t go with the job description, when Chris said, I nobody’s ever asked me No. I would say, people have asked me how I’m doing. I could certainly say that they have, and I’m great at lying.

I’m great at telling them, oh, it’s great. I, and when my daughter, when I had my, I had a daughter who passed away. When my daughter died, I believed that my job was to be there for everyone else. [00:40:00] And so my grieving time, I visually, I can I picture it right now, I would curl up in the shower, the hot water going curl up in the ground and just weep.

And then I’d walk outta that shower. I had it all together again for my wife at the time, for my other daughter, for the people around me, my in-laws all of that kind of stuff. And I was the best liar there was at telling people how great I am and how good things are going and how, oh, everything is awesome.

I’m handling all of this really well. So I think one of the greatest gifts we can give to ourselves as men is to get honest.

Eric: Yeah.

Rob: And to tell the truth.

Eric: Stop pretending. Stop. Line stop pretending. Stop posturing. Yeah. Show up as you are. Guys, I’m curious why do you think, let’s talk about high achieving men for a minute.

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Eric: ‘Cause that’s what we have around the table here. We got an AI guy, got a real estate guy. You got two coaches and you got a a financial planning benefits guy in the insurance space, [00:41:00] right? Almost a joke. Yeah. There’s a joke. Fuck yeah. Whatcha got hell. Hey. And don’t forget, there’s, and don’t forget, there’s Steve.

Yeah. Hey, there’s Steve Producer. You making a light bulb joke, right? Exactly. But why do you think so many high achieving men wait till it’s almost too late before they get help? Why is

Chris: that We’re not taught like it we’re, they’re just high performing men are just mapping out the process that they’re supposed to be doing.

Like that. I think there’s just different levels. But I do think that people. As I mentioned before, we’re brainwashed for, to achieve that success and go. I think that’s not just everybody, just some people just take it a little bit farther, right? Based upon personalities like Paul, ’cause you’re, driven sports athlete, driven to be seen in a sense, right?

And all those things. So I think it’s ingrained in us from the very beginning. Some of us just get farther, right? And I think there’s reasons why certain people get farther, but it’s, [00:42:00] there’s privilege. There’s a whole bunch of things that make it that way. I think the, if there is a solution, it’s having us as parents Yeah.

Be the parents that we wish we had. Oof. And I think that by giving our children the opportunity to feel. Not feel that shame. I was taught if I get punched, punch back. And I think or in many ways that the boys don’t cry. I can’t remember time I cried.

I never, I basically, as a child I remember sometimes crying, my parents just walking by me.

Eric: Yeah.

Chris: Not even really recognizing that I am in some. No acknowledgement in something. No acknowledgement. No.

Eric: Yeah.

Chris: So that being said, like I think that it’s really up to men to make, to implement or some changes in how we raise people.

Yeah. And I think that’s a big issue. Or not a big issue, but I think that’s a way to help the generations coming. Being okay and having these deep discussions. I love having deep discussions with my children. Right when they let me. Like [00:43:00] I’m like, I’m constantly pulling out like, Hey Chad, be, gimme a list of 50 questions I can ask my 18-year-old.

I’m constantly trying to get to know them. And not judge them, just to get to know them anyways. But yeah, I think the education piece, I’m a professor as well, so I think education is so key to the change that we want to see in the world. And isn’t it beautiful,

Rob: I love what you said there when you’re, tying it in with the kids.

And I’ve shared the story on the podcast here the night before Wendy and I got married, sitting down with my two daughters who are, one’s in her early thirties, the other’s in her mid twenties, but, and sitting with them with cigars and some whiskey sitting on the balcony right upstairs here and having to apologize for them and recognize, the, having that vulnerability to say, I wasn’t there for you growing up.

And I and I couldn’t, I wasn’t the father that you guys deserved. I’m choosing to be that father now and that vulnerability, that’s the. Almost the best way we can educate our kids is to set the example. Yeah. Now, [00:44:00] I had no idea whether I had a pretty good idea they’d received that. I have a good relationship with my daughters today, but for many years I didn’t as a re and I would never have been vulnerable during that time because I was angry that they were angry at me.

And so I think that education piece, or given that example to your kids, is one of the greatest gifts we can give. Do you think

Chris: parenting changes, like as men it seems like a lot of men have that tipping point as when they have children and especially daughters and I think about that often.

I think that’s great that having a daughter makes that change or sometimes that mentality change, but I wish it didn’t have to be that having a daughter makes you see things different.

Rob: It didn’t change for me. Didn’t change for the first, for you? No, not for not for the first 20 years. That’s why I fucked it up so much.

Okay. Okay. Why I wasn’t there for my kids. ’cause I thought I was, but I wasn’t there for my kids certainly until there were adults. And yeah, no I would say I, I love the idea that it would change, but it didn’t for me. I was like no. The best way I’m gonna be there for my girls is be the best at whatever I was doing and provide for [00:45:00] them.

Rick: Yeah. I’m in it right now where with a 14-year-old daughter where I, and part of the wake up was like, huh. And as a really close friend of mine pointed this out again and we talk about tribe and Foundry and that, the constant coaching, the constant not conversation, not asking questions, but the constant, feeling like I needed to, for throwing a ball and I gotta show you how to throw the ball, right?

If we’re doing the thing I gotta do the, in my brain that was pushing for success again, I was pushing for the thing and of course I was actually creating a sense of unworthiness. I was creating a sense of never gonna be enough, creating in, in, and that’s the mo heartbreaking to go backwards and reflect and all I could do is sit with her and say, Hey I’m waking up to this.

And here’s what I’m gonna do moving forward. I’m not always gonna get it right. I’m gonna try and I’m just owning it. And I hope that our cigar and whiskey conversation in a number, she’s 14, she can’t have a cigar.

Rob: Don’t Oh, whiskey bad. We got some problem. It’s just actually an intervention.[00:46:00]

Rick: My hope is it’s a slightly different conversation. Yeah. But then also that we’re breaking some cycles. Yeah. Yeah. That are clearly there for a reason. And, but now we’re breaking those cycles and that her kids are, going to have a different experience, a different childhood as well.

Eric: I would love us to do in the future, just an episode, just on the parenting piece, because I tell you Yeah, like you talk about, I remember, yes. It, having kids, like my kids are all grown up now. 29, 25. And my son will be 20 in November, close to when this episode drops before that. But about the same time for me as it brought me even more face-to-face with how much of a screw up I felt that I was, because I felt, now I’m fucking this up too.

I’m fucking up. Probably the most important thing of all, which is being a dad. And so I think there’s so much to unpack in the whole parenting piece. Gentlemen, we could go on all day. I’d like us to do so I’m gonna ask this question. I’ll ask you all to take a stab at it.

Advice for struggling men and the women who love them

Eric: Okay. And we’re probably gonna land here just because of time, but if there’s a man listening right now who feels like he’s falling apart, quietly, falling apart, or maybe hitting [00:47:00] the wall hard, what would you say to him? And what would you say to the woman who loves him?

Paul: I’ll start by saying, I, most people are listening to this.

They’re probably high performing business people, women, men, like high performing anyway, so we’re all in the same boat. One thing I can say is I believe a lot of us are led by our egos.

I think a lot of us are led by those external gratifications, needing people to tell us how awesome we are and how wonderful we are.

Yeah. And I think letting go of that ego leading from the front, leading from the front is very important. Meaning you go through the wall for your people to get through the wall. Yeah. Rather than, coming down with that iron fist is really important. But probably one of the biggest pieces too, is that supportive cast.

The woman who’s supporting that. And I’m very lucky now to have a girlfriend of four years that is my supporting cast. And it’s hard. You don’t have that peace and it’s you feel even more of a failure. You feel more of a [00:48:00] failure. To the woman that’s watching this.

Keep lifting up your man. Keep lifting up your man. And it’s not, it’s just making them feel worthy. That’s the biggest feas is ’cause a lot of the, when we hit those walls and we have these masks on, it’s ’cause we don’t feel worthy.

Eric: Yeah.

Paul: I, one of my, one of my biggest flaws is I need people to tell I need you to tell me how good I am.

I need you to, do you think I had all these billboards everywhere and signs everywhere because I wanted them there? No. I wanted someone to say, I saw your billboard. I needed that. I needed that. Yeah. Affirmation. I needed the affirmation that I was a somebody. And I, that ego slowly going and I don’t really, being a somebody is what I’m doing right now.

I I, I can cock my chest down. Like I, I am doing something to help people. The other stuff is just external stuff that you can throw away. So it’s, yeah. And I know that, there’s it’s hard. You’re 20, 30, 40 going through this. You’re starting to grow everything.

You’re starting it’s, it is hard. I’m 50 now, so I’m, I’ve gone through the wars, ah, you’re still young. [00:49:00] Yeah, I know. But I’ve gone, I tell now. Yeah. No, that’s right. Yeah. The old guy. Yeah. But I’ve gone through the wars and it’s just feeling good in your own skin and being proud of yourself and being able to look in the mirror.

Yeah. And it’s just, that’s probably my biggest advice would just be able to look in the mirror. Yeah. ’cause it’s so hard to look in that mirror and see someone you’re really proud of and doing something that, that’s why I go back to purpose. Passion, yeah. Peace. Love that. That’s have a purpose, have a purpose.

Yeah. Have some passion for something. Yeah. Find that piece. Yeah. Like the piece is the most important part. Just find that piece is what you need about that. I would say, and I’ll say

Rob: this really quick yeah. And to the men that are listening, you’re not alone. I know you’re thinking that your bigger screw up than anybody else that’s ever walked the planet, or that your pain is not something, just recognize you’re not alone.

There’s a lot of guys that are feeling exactly the way that you are. And all you need to do is raise your hand and you’ll be amazed at who comes around and to the women that are listening. Your guy doesn’t need another [00:50:00] mother. Doesn’t need somebody to, I agree. They don’t need, they don’t need you to fix it.

They need you just to listen and to just care and to love unconditionally. Yeah. Love, love that. Love that. Love it. I love that.

Chris: Love it. What would you add, Chris? That’s a tough one because even when you ask that question I felt really emotional and I ’cause as I mentioned, I had a friend that passed away in March.

And, I’m the type of person that replays everything in my head. And I try to think scenarios. I’m constantly like, I’m not a computer by, but I probably think very similar where I’m always running scenarios. And when I can’t figure something out, it doesn’t. And so the question was like, how, what would I say?

That, I would just probably echo what you said, Rob was in that aspect of if you are, if there’s any, if you’re feeling things and you just can’t come out, because we, and that’s another issue, is just our inability to recognize emotions and to speak. You gotta speak, you can’t keep it buried because it will blow up.

That’s, we can go into statistics on [00:51:00] male suicide, domestic issues, like it goes on and on divorces so I think. Talking to somebody and I’ll go back to, Sure. If you have, you can afford therapy, go with therapy, but if you can’t a friend, right? Yeah. That’s, and that’s one thing about the foundry, right?

Yeah. And about what you’re doing here is that you’re providing that avenue for men to talk deeper about issues.

All: Yeah.

Chris: What would I say to, to women? I first off I can’t do any better than what Rob said. Because I don’t think it’s the responsibility of the woman to change the man. It’s the responsibility or vice versa, right?

Yeah. It’s the responsibility of the man to change himself. Love it. And let’s

Paul: be honest, we’re not qualified to talk to women anyway. Yeah. Let’s be honest. Like, how do we give a woman advice? We’re not qualified. We’re not gonna go there.

Eric: We’re not gonna go there. Yeah.

Chris: Cannot speak for my wife. I’ll say that.

And I

Eric: wouldn’t want to, she’s Rick at our closing moments. What would you add to that question?

Rick: I think I, I. Referencing a a good friend of mine, his name is Matt, and I know he’ll watch this and his gift in life is he will [00:52:00] get in the mud with you. It’s a Simon Sinek thing, but he’ll get in the mud and not make you really even recognize that he was getting in the mud with you.

And he is just there not trying to fix, but he’ll just listen. And it’s like he figured out at 20 that peace was the part of the answer. Like he figured it out way before the rest of us and it still had a lot of success. So for me, there’s a realignment of, okay, in my tribe now who are the people that I need to put on a pedestal?

Of success. I’m sure he has things inside him too. But there’s the, that to me is the gift. And I hope I get to a point where I can also get in the mud with other people. But as guys, we tend to never let anyone give us the honor of getting in the mud with them. Sorry. We never, we don’t give any other people the honor of getting the mud with us.

That’s right. So we just feel like I’m the only one guy in the mud. Yeah. I’m the only one here, and I don’t, I can’t possibly burden somebody else with this. Would you get in the mud with me? So it’s actually finding some people that you [00:53:00] trust, some people you can take your mask off with, or even one person that you can take it off with.

If it’s a therapist, great. If you can afford therapy, awesome. If you can’t, you gotta find somebody that you perceive is there and you can take your mask off and say, would you do, would you? Get in the mud with me and that person will be honored to do that. Yeah, a hundred percent. And that’s And

Paul: define success.

And define success for yourself.

Rick: Success define realign for purpose. ’cause all this bullshit work without purpose is actually just stress. Yeah. It’s not, we’re not getting anywhere. Yeah. The next episode, money Find the People is not purpose. Money is not purpose. Money is not purpose. No. Realign for purpose.

Find the tribe. Yeah. Love. You’ll be way more whole.

Eric: Yeah. Love it. Gentlemen, this has been so rich. Huge kudos to each of you. And thank you for your vulnerability. You hope miss your willingness to be here today. And thank you for tuning in and being part of this conversation. This is part of the Living Richly movement.

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Eric: Out of that is Form is forming the foundry a community of men, a brotherhood that is coming together to do [00:54:00] exactly what we’re doing here, to talk about the real shit, to put down the masks and build genuine relationships that can help us be the best version of ourselves. So I encourage you to go visit the website.

It’s foundry four men.com. The four is a number. So foundry number four men.com. You can sign up for our mailing list and become part of the community. And for anyone else listening, if you, there’s a man in your life that could benefit. From this conversation, please share it with them. Share the website with them.

We’d love them to be part of what’s happening here. Again, thanks for all your ongoing support. Thank you, gentlemen, for such a rich conversation. And until next time, keep on living your best life.