Ep131 – Shes Not Crazy

Wendy: [00:00:00] I think I can speak on behalf of a lot of women. Sometimes we just need empathy and not. Mm-hmm. Analysis

All: from my experience, there are times where that emotion is just unexpected. And when it shows up in a conversation or in a moment, um, I immediately go to, what did I do wrong?

Eric: To learn how to have conversations so that when you need to have a difficult one, you’re already conditioned to how to listen.

Yeah. How to, how to ask clarifying questions and, and all of those things. Yeah.

Kate: Women tune into the emotion behind the words, and I think men often. Just take the word as literal without reading between the lines.

Eric: Hey, and welcome to the Living Richly Podcast. We’re so glad that you’re here with us today. We’re at. We’re gonna be doing kind of a little bit of a two part episode. Uh, the first part we’re gonna be talking today about what women wish men knew. Uh, and then next, uh, episode we’re gonna be talking about the things.

That’ll be the really good one. That’s gonna be the one where we get to tell the [00:01:00] women what we wish that they knew. Oh, wow. Uh, but, uh, today, what’s all. Like I, that we’re getting off to such a bad start. Really like, dude, you’re even, I knew that was a little weird, but we were already

All: asking ourselves whether or not this is a really good, I, I mean I thought this would be a good idea.

Now I’m sitting here, I’m like, I’m feeling anxious. It’s so different. And for those

Wendy: of you who aren’t watching the video and listening to this, when I go, what’s Rob doing? You would just have to like positioning you like posture, trying be stop, and like, yeah, rah, his bice. I am Do the whole

Eric: what, what? Uh, we’re gonna answer every question this way, uh, during the episode.

Uh, no. But, uh, some, you remember the, the, the movie, the Mel Gibson movie, what, uh, women Want Women Want? Yeah. Yes. Me, Ryan. And how big that was. Yeah. With Meg Ryan. And there was so much talk about that. ’cause it was just this whole notion of, you know, every man wished they could get inside the brain or the thinking of, uh, of their, their significant other.

Yeah. Uh, and, uh, most men just think women are crazy. Uh, and, uh, that’s what we’re gonna expel that dish. Do they think crazy? Really? I maybe Well, that’s what [00:02:00] you told me before. No, no, no, no, no, no.

All: Oh,

Eric: yeah.

All: That’s, that was, wow. That was a private discussion. No, sorry. Oh, so Eric, do tell me. Yeah, I know.

Kate: Yeah.

All: But I, but I do think, like, again, it’s this whole, we don’t want this to be like, uh, men are from Mars, women are from Venus.

Kind of show. It’s really, uh, on, on this episode, we’re like, we want to explore. What it’s like inside your minds, like what, how you’re showing up and how we show up and how that gets translated for you. Right? So

Eric: a lot of our guests, uh, will listen to this even as couples, both the husband and the wife, uh, listen to these episodes and we’ll talk about, we hear comments about that.

If that’s the case for you and you’ve got a significant other, why don’t you take some time to listen to these next couple of episodes together? Uh, I think it’s gonna be opening up a lot of conversations for couples to really take the time to listen. Imagine if. When we think of intimacy now, we’ll talk about this next week, guys, think of intimacy.

We immediately think of sex.

Kate: Mm.

Eric: What if intimacy was deeper? And it was all about the connection, [00:03:00] listening. And there’s going to be a great opportunity as much as we’re gonna joke around, and I’m sure there’s gonna be a lot of fun comments, no doubt. Uh, during this episode, our goal here is. To truly, uh, listen and understand.

So today, Eric and I are gonna put on our listening ears as much as we can, and we’re going to. Yes. I, I

All: just wanna stay ahead of time. I’m sorry. I’m sorry.

Eric: Oh. So when, when I say be a four hour

Wendy: show,

Eric: when I, when I made the comment earlier about most men think women are crazy, what we’re really talking about there is most, uh, men think women are. Too emotional and it’s, the emotion is, is ’cause it’s unpredictable for guys. Right. So when we think about how men will say that mm-hmm.

And comment that women are too emotional, what would be say or think it? Yeah. Think it or say What would be the response that you would have? Maybe Kate, I’ll start with you.

Kate: Yeah. I think men get uncomfortable when there’s a lot of emotion and I think it’s ’cause men haven’t been. A taught that it’s okay to [00:04:00] be emotional themselves, and B, don’t necessarily know how to cope with emotions.

Mm-hmm. ’cause they weren’t allowed to show them, like, so they certainly weren’t taught tools on how to deal with those. So I think when they see it in their partner who’s emotional, I think the first thing they go to is like, woo. Like it’s so yeah. Uncomfortable. And then they wanna, they wanna. Fix it so fast and move away from it.

’cause they wanna get rid of that discomfort. Mm-hmm. So men go to that place of like, how do I make this better? How do I fix this? And that’s like, they want the fastest way to like the easy button and fix and get out. That’s my view. Yeah. Yeah.

Wendy: And I think the, um. I mean, we, yes, women can absolutely feel too much.

I think that sometimes that feeling too much and the emotion tied around it is, I think sometimes men are taught about more emotional avoidance. Um, as well as, uh, sometimes just not being able to listen. So we hear often like. Are you hearing [00:05:00] me or are you listening? ’cause they’re, we say that to our kids, you know, like, I hear you.

Yes, I know, but are you actually listening? Totally. So just being, listening intentionally without kind of, to your point, wanting to jump in and fix it right away.

All: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I, I think, uh, I mean, from my perspective, we, I think sometimes we get surprised by the emotion. Yeah. Yeah. Um, where it’s just not what we expect in that moment.

And I think you’re not a hundred percent right that most dudes are way behind, uh, when it comes to emotional acuity, understanding their emotions, being comfortable with emotion. So when it shows up, it, uh, I, I speak for, I can only speak for myself and I wanna be clear, uh, any answer I give today, I’m not speaking on behalf of all men, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I think, uh, e every human has their own experience, but from my experience, there are times where that emotion is just. Unexpected. And when it shows up in a conversation or in a moment, um, I immediately go to, what did I do wrong? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And right like that to cause that. Right. Or I don’t [00:06:00] understand that.

Yeah. Because in my brain I’m going, oh, that and this don’t belong together right now. Uh, ’cause we’re failing to, uh, again, it’s the fix it, it’s the make it go away. Make it be okay. Uh, which I think is, um. A pretty, pretty, IM like, it’s a pretty common response for men is to wanna just fix it and make it okay.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But it’s this often, it’s just that shock of, oh, what is this? I didn’t, yeah, I didn’t expect that.

Wendy: Well, and fair enough to you guys, although I really like that you said dudes a couple of minutes ago. Yeah. So to you, dudes. All right. Um, in fairness though, to men, some, oh, you’re trying to fist bump.

Oh my god, you left him hanging. Wow. He left me

Eric: hanging. That was, uh, even Steve gave an awkward look like you just left me hanging.

Kate: Hey,

Eric: the reason I did that was because I was what left me hanging. I was so paying attention and listening to Wendy that I, oh, that’s funny.

Wendy: Honestly, if you’re going for a walk right now and just listening to this, you really should just cancel the rest of your day and just watch the video because the body language.

In [00:07:00] this video is just epic. Epic. It’s, it’s gonna be amazing. So yes. So thank you for making me feel seen and heard. Um, I think though in defense of the dudes, I know for me, I tend to bottle thi so I can, I can take a step back and think of it from a guy’s perspective where, where all of a sudden, because it’s happened with us before, where everything will be fine, and then all of a sudden you’re like.

Where’s this coming from? And it’s just, you’re completely blindsided because I think as women, we do such a phenomenal job of compartmentalizing such a big word. Yeah. Compartmentalizing our feelings and emotions until it bubbles over and then it.

Kate: And I like, I agree with you, but I would also add, women have this whole realm, we just did a show on this of hormones that are raging through our systems and there’s a lot of times where we have no control over.

And sometimes we look at our own reactions and we’re like, what the fuck was that? Like you, you’re just like, that was disproportionate to what’s going on. And so sometimes we just talked about this, how important it’s for women to communicate to their [00:08:00] partner, right? This, I’m, this is where I am in my cycle.

This is where I am in, in my hormone. I don’t know. Call it, I don’t know what exactly it, journey. Journey, it is a journey, but like to communicate that to your partner as well. And I think women, women need to do a better job of expressing like, Hey, I’m feeling really kind of like, like off kilter. I’m feeling very emotional and here’s why

Eric: I’m, I’m loving the, uh, the, the, the TV show Landman.

And, uh, in fact, I watched the first season thought, oh, this is so good. And now we’re sitting down and watching it and there’s a scene where Billy Bob Thornton, the main character, he is talking to his, his ex-wife, and she’s losing her shit over something. And he said, honey, don’t get offended by this, but where are you on your menstrual cycle?

And at first she gets mad and then she starts to laugh because she realizes that it’s

Kate: tomorrow, it’s tomorrow.

Eric: And I thought, oh, that’s such a funny line. But,

All: but I think also, like when we talk about the emotional piece, like, uh, let’s be fair, we talked about this before and I get that this doesn’t apply to everyone, but I mean, it, [00:09:00] it, I think it bears out for most of the population.

Women are much more comfortable expressing their feelings, much more comfortable with feelings. Even if like, like everyone, we get overwhelmed at times. Whereas for guys, we’re, we’re not right. The conditioning is, listen, if you come at us with anger that we understand. That we can really go, oh, I know what that is.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but, uh, anything else but that can sometimes feel very confusing and kind of throw us for a bit of a loop. Now that becomes, um, a hurdle that we’ve got to overcome. It can also become something that we hide behind. Mm-hmm. Right. While I just don’t do feelings, I just don’t get feelings.

I think it’s really the onus is on I. We work with a lot of men. Yeah. Through the foundry, through our Rhapsody, through all of it. And I’m, the constant message I have for them is, guys, you’re living in black and white. Like when you have shut off your entire emotional self and you only know chill and rage.

Yeah. Um, that’s, that’s your entire emotional range. Uh, you’re missing out. On, on the kaleidoscope of color.

Eric: Yeah. But, and I, but I think with that, and it goes to the next question [00:10:00] that I would have around, uh, misunderstandings often when that moment happens and, and we’re like, what the hell was that? We weren’t seeing, there were all kinds of signs and messages and there was no, there wasn’t, there was so much that was.

Saw the song. So maybe share, if you don’t mind sharing a personal or an example of where you were misunderstood and how that then ended up where there was a reaction.

Kate: There’s so many. Sorry. So many. There’s so many. I. I drew from one, from when I was married. ’cause I think a lot of women can relate to this.

Like, being married, Eric, I

All: got off, I I’m not being mentioned here, Eric.

Kate: Yeah. It’s, it’s not about you. Um, but I remember just feeling like a typical mom. Like just overwhelmed kids work life. Um, and I’m not, I was just not, it was one of those days and I, I dunno, something happened, something was said and I just.

I kind of just lost my shit about, I don’t know, something, it was something mundane like the dishwasher or whatever. Um, and then all of a sudden [00:11:00] I just like unloaded, like you said, Wendy, like it all just came out about the last probably six to nine months what’s been going in my head. And it all just comes out.

And then of course, his reaction is. Oh, I did something wrong. I need to fix it. Like, so he starts fixing versus just listening. Mm-hmm. And so I own that. I didn’t communicate what I needed, didn’t know what I needed at the time. But I think in that moment, what happens is. Him going into fix it mode. He thinks he did something wrong.

And now I feel like, oh my God, now I have to deal. Now you’re upset. So I have to deal with your feelings on top of how I’m feeling. Mm-hmm. So you do this dance. Right. And then all I needed in that moment was to be heard. Yeah. I just needed to be heard that I’m overwhelmed and how do we solve this together?

And how do we talk about this together? Like it just, I didn’t need the fixing in that moment. Yeah.

Wendy: Yeah.

Kate: Like what do I do right now?

Wendy: Yeah, I think a lot of women can relate to that, to that. I know when I’m at my point, I know for me, tone, I’m, I, I wear [00:12:00] my heart on my sleeve, so body language for me mm-hmm. I always have to be really conscious of it.

Um, and so, you know, if, if I say something around like, I just need a minute, and whether it’s my tone, my delivery, my, that can sometimes be, um, and it has in the past, uh, interpreted as. Um, criticism versus exhaustion. Mm-hmm. And to your point Yeah. In terms of just wanting to be heard. For, for, I think I can speak on behalf of a lot of women.

Sometimes we just need empathy and not mm-hmm. Analysis. Yeah. I don’t need to be analyzed. I don’t need to be fixed. Yeah. You know, sometimes I’ll say joking, I don’t need to be coached right now. I just, even though it’s not joking, even though the best not joking,

All: she’s not joking. There’s no joking when she said that.

Well, we’ve talked about it. She’s correct. She’s she, but she’s not

Eric: joking.

All: Yeah. I learned a long time ago that although I’m a coach, uh, that’s what I do, uh, day in and day out. I don’t coach the people closest to me. I just, unless they ask for it. Yeah. Because, uh. That never works out well, but we’ve [00:13:00] talked about this, uh, and, and I try to practice this, uh, more and more.

It’s, I something I’m still very much actively working on, but in moments where, um, something is off mm-hmm. Uh, rather than going to fix it mode is I’m trying to go through my mind, okay, what’s required here? Does she need to be, do you need to be heard? Mm-hmm. Do you need to be hugged? Do you need to be helped?

Kate: Mm-hmm.

All: And I think oftentimes as dudes, we feel this again, we, the, the, the protector, the provider, the one that’s supposed to be strong and hold it all together. That’s, we’ll talk more about that on the next show. Uh, but that runs, that’s like second nature to us. That’s I inbred in our b uh, DNA. And what I would say to guys is stop guessing.

Stop assuming you know which one of those three categories she needs. Ask the question, what, what’s, what do you need from me right now? How can I help? Do you need to be hugged, heard, or helped? Um, and that question can help avoid a lot of nights spent on the couch.

Kate: Yeah. And I, I will, and we’ve talked about this before, but I will also add sometimes I, like I or a [00:14:00] woman, we don’t know what the fuck we need.

Mm-hmm. Like, I’ll be honest, like in those moments when it’s the heat of the moment, I don’t think I can even articulate what I need. I know the onus is sits here to communicate that, but there are times where it’s just like. I just, I need you to magically know what I need right now, and I can’t tell you, and that’s not, and then that’s not fair.

I understand that. We, but that’s like we’ve discuss What I love

All: is we’ve had those discussions. Yeah. We’ve had those moments where you’ve said that to me. You’ve said, I, I really don’t know what I need in this moment. No idea. And then it’s, we can both just go, okay. Yeah. Right. Okay. But instead of assuming and then diving into something that’s gonna make matters worse.

Totally. Which is a guy’s worst fear. Uh, and why we often withdraw and go silent is ’cause we’re, we’re afraid we’re gonna screw it up even more. Yeah. Um, it, it, it’s like a pause button to say, I don’t know what I need right now. Okay, so let’s just, let’s, that’s, let’s let that sit in the space and, and yeah.

Once you know, then we will move forward. But in the moment. What can I do for you in this moment?

Kate: Right. Yeah. I just wanna stress that it’s okay if you don’t know Yeah. What you need. Yeah. Because a lot, I think a lot of women don’t in [00:15:00] the heat. Yeah. And I, and I

Eric: love that you, uh, you, as you guys were talking that through.

Yeah. Because I think it is, there’s so much freedom to be able to just both be able to sit there in the unknown and to, and to be okay with, well, we don’t know what is needed right now, but let’s just, we’re gonna feel this together and, and, and walk this, take this spot. Oh, and for the record, I don’t want

All: anyone listening to this to think I’m comfortable.

Living in the unknown. It’s actually very uncomfortable. It’s very uncomfortable, um, for most of us, I think, to not know what the next way forward is. I’m curious, you helped me understand this, um, the invisible load. I think you’re the first person that ever used that phrase. Mm-hmm. I don’t think I heard it anywhere else.

Yeah. But help me understand the invisible load that women carry that sometimes men just don’t recognize.

Kate: Yeah. I mean, it’s just, it’s literally. This constant running computer that is on all of the time. It is literally like. Like men do and women are thinking about what needs to [00:16:00] happen to get the action done.

Like, think of it this way, I think men often, like putting the garbage out is an analogy I like to use. Like, that’s, that’s an action that you take. You put the garbage out. What’s running through my brain is, oh my God, like we’re, the compost is overflowing. I need to get that out. ’cause Eric’s gonna put the garbage out on Wednesday and oh my God, I just went in.

There’s no more compost. Bags. So now, okay. And I asked, I asked my oldest to deal with the comp. Why hasn’t he been doing this? He’s supposed to do this. Okay. So I’m gonna talk to him after school. Wait, I can’t talk to him after school because, because he’s out. Oh, right. And he’s taking the car. Oh, oh. But I forgot I have to take my daughter to an appointment.

And then I’m, and then your brain just like, it’s this constant, like, I need

All: a drink.

Kate: Yeah. But it, it never, and you’re moving. I

All: stick in the same thing. Oh my

Kate: God. But you’re constantly moving. Peace. Is to like keep the household running and it’s absolutely exhausting. Yeah. The, the thinking about, we’re thinking, we’re

All: thinking garbage curb,

Kate: and I’m thinking all of these things and that’s the

Wendy: task because men, it’s the task.

See the task.

Kate: Yeah.

Wendy: They don’t necessarily, or [00:17:00] always see the ripple effects, the timeline, the temperature, the after effects. Now women, I know for me, I can kind of let my. Mind spiral into all different directions where sometimes you’ll be like, okay, but we don’t need to think about all of the things.

Let’s just deal with mm-hmm. The task. And so I think that helps me kind of, okay, I don’t need to think about all of the 15 things that could happen or go wrong, but it’s interesting seeing men and women deal with, and the garbage one is a great example. Yeah. Uh. Task. Yeah. Check. Whereas women, it’s, there’s so many other things tied into it because Yeah.

And

Kate: it, it never, it never quiets. I think that’s part of the challenge too, is you, you, you, you get through one. Ask of putting the garbage out. There’s another like, it’s the laundry, it’s the groceries, it’s paying the bills, it’s planning Christmas, it’s organizing gifts. It’s like, it’s just this constant [00:18:00] management of life that women, I.

Run and it is the thinking and the planning and the like. It’s great you’re gonna go buy the birthday gift for the party, but I already had to call Sarah’s mom and find out what does she want and then I had to coordinate ’em. I have to bring cupcakes and do we have to make those or can I buy them? And someone’s silly.

I can, someone else has like another allergy and you’re trying to, and, and then it’s like the ask might be ’cause. You, you’d be great. And you’d be like, well, what can I do? And I’m like, can you go buy these cupcakes? But it’s everything that goes into the mind power it takes to organize all that to then get to the task.

That’s exhausting. I think for, I think

Eric: for a lot of guys, we, uh, we, we hear that and sometimes we’ll even guys will joke around, oh yeah, no, my wife just plans all that. Or My wife takes care of all of that. Yeah. And, you know, and I can be guilty of that even with, with Christmas, right? Yeah. Uh, even my kids will joke around.

They know that any. Christmas presents they got, yeah. Wendy was the one that came up with the ideas of what they’re gonna get and everything, because I don’t think [00:19:00] about it. And if, oh, if I have to wrap something, then I’ll do that. We don’t really, yeah. Uh, it, we may un, we may, uh, recognize it, but we often don’t acknowledge it.

Yeah. Uh, what happens when all of that internal load, uh, is not acknowledged, is not seen, uh, over time what happens? A, a, as a result,

All: or, or even worse, you’re overreacting. Is what you hear from us. I didn’t say that. No, no, no, but Right. No, no, that’s right. Again, we’re, I didn’t say anything. We failed. We failed to, no, no.

But we failed to see not overreacting load, right? No, I was speaking hypothetically. Oh, I just got, like, now

Wendy: I’m gonna be watching the show. You could see

All: the, the stairs like staring me down. I wasn’t actually addressing you guys. And not only.

Eric: Both of them were staring you down. And I looked out, I know you looked away, you like

All: left me to drive.

I was like, I, I

Eric: need to go talk to Steve, the producer right now.

All: Well, because I, because you, you mentioned like, what does it feel like when that doesn’t get noticed or doesn’t get acknowledged Verse and, [00:20:00] but I think another form of that is when, uh, all that’s going on. And not only is it not being acknowledged, but you hear, you’re just overreacting.

Yeah.

Wendy: Yeah. You know, so I think a lot of times people think right away it’s resentment for women. Mm. Um. Yes, but not initially. For me, it’s loneliness because I feel like I am managing or having to manage everything in my mind, like physically and emotionally all at once. So. That can then turn into just being emotionally depleted.

Mm-hmm. And just having nothing left to give, and then that can then turn into resentment or being passive aggressive. Yeah. As, as a byproduct of that. Yeah.

Kate: A hundred percent. Yeah. For me it’s like resentment. Yeah.

Wendy: Like off

Kate: the top. I am pissed. I, I am. See how she looks at anxious, angry.

Eric: She did. I, I, she was kind of like, like I said, Dr.

Sherry’s gonna be really busy after this show. No

Kate: kidding. But I get resentful. I get like, why, why is this load on me? [00:21:00] Why, why do I have to bear it all on myself? Why can’t you see I’m, there’s a lot of like, like, why can’t you see this? I’m not expressing it either, but I go to that place of like, this doesn’t seem fair.

Fair fairness is a big one too. That creeps up like. Oh, it must be nice. I’m gonna speak for a lot of women now. Oh, it must be nice to just show up on Christmas morning and everything’s all ready for you. Like, and a lot of women think like that, but they also don’t communicate to their partner like, I’m pissed about this and here’s why.

I think a lot of women take it on and never speak up. Yeah. And I think that’s what can create that tension and that resentment leads to disconnection and that disconnection leads to like not a very happy marriage. So let’s

Eric: go there because I that you know my, now I wanna fix it. Now, so let’s fix it.

Right? No, but what, what, what is it? Oh, this will not end well. No, but, but in a practical way. Uh, you’re right. Often for guys we’re, we don’t even notice it. Yeah. When you say, oh, it must be nice to just show up at Christmas morning. Yeah. A lot of guys would be like, [00:22:00] yeah, it’s great. What’s the problem? Right.

And so, and, and so often, and I know there are times where Wendy will ask me to do something and I’ll be like. Oh yeah. That needs to be done.

Kate: Yeah. I’m

Eric: not even, it’s just not on my radar. So how do guys become more proactive, uh, in helping, in sharing the load that women carry?

Kate: Yeah, I mean, I think just like pay attention.

Like I’m gonna give an example like, Hey, I notice that you’re always planning the groceries and I notice that you’re always doing the grocery shopping, like. That happens every week. Like that’s not something that Christmas is happening once in a blue moon, but you see things that your wife does or you’re always doing laundry, whatever, whatever that is.

And then I think it’s you like observe it, name it, talk to your wife or partner and say, Hey, here’s what I’m noticing, and then offer to take that off her plate. I think that goes a really long way to say, Hey, I’ve been thinking you’re doing a lot. It [00:23:00] feels like you’re doing a lot more. I’d love to be able to take this off your plate, but then really take it off her plate.

And what I mean by that is don’t offer to do groceries. ’cause this is what I hear from my girlfriends a lot. And then go to the grocery store and text her 10,000 questions about what you should be buying at the grocery store. So they get, and I understand why men do that, because they get to the store.

Like I don’t wanna buy the wrong thing. Yeah. And I don’t want her to get upset. But there’s this thing where she just is like craving for you to. Take. If you’re gonna take it, take it, own it. Come home with like blueberries instead of blackberries. She doesn’t care at the end of the day. It’s just the action of seeing it, being aware of it, offering to take it completely off her plate.

So it’s off her plate, means out of her brain. Right? And out of her brain is one more thing that computer doesn’t have.

All: And, and yet for do so. I hear that. I hear that a hundred percent. And I think, uh, a great takeaway there is just because you’ve fallen into certain roles doesn’t mean in the relationship.

Yeah. Doesn’t mean those roles are forever. And, uh, having a regular conversation [00:24:00] to check in about. Hey, are we good? Are we good with how the load’s being shared? Do we need to love that? Yeah. Explore. I, I think that’s really important. We do that in the, the works. Well, we don’t do it enough in the workplace, but it happens pretty commonly in the workplace where we’re, are we good with the rule?

Do we understand it? Do we need to make some shifts? Uh, but we just don’t do it at home, and a lot of assumptions take place. I, I have been that guy on the other side. I mean, for years I did groceries. But yeah, I will tell you that we, uh, for us, um, if we get it wrong mm-hmm. Even by a bit, we failed. Yeah. Um, the performance piece I get it, is so strong for us.

Yeah. That, uh, and so if we’re, if we’re, if I’m trying to do something for you to take the load off and I fuck it up in any kind of way Yeah. It was worse than me. Yeah. Right. So, uh, so it’s interesting again, how we’re is approaching it, it from a very different perspective. Yeah. That if we can’t do it. A hundred percent.

Yeah. At least for me, uh, if I can’t do it a hundred percent, then it doesn’t, it doesn’t count. No, but I think I

Wendy: Sorry, didn’t mean to interrupt you there. I think that’s a fair point because I have seen it and I still hear it from, [00:25:00] um, we’ll use, like having a baby as an example. Women tend to wanna carry everything and do everything.

And don’t always, in fairness to you guys, don’t always give the guys a chance to maybe do it their way. Maybe they don’t put the diaper on exactly the way. But I have seen where it gets to the point where guys just stop asking. Yeah. Because they’re like, well, everything I do is fucking wrong. Totally agree.

So why do I bother? So. It’s funny that,

Eric: it’s funny you say that. ’cause when you made the comment about very so good if you get the blackberries instead of the blueberries or however you said that they’re not gonna care. And I was thinking, and right away I thought, oh, I was in a relationship where if I came home with the blackberries instead of the blueberries, I was told, when did I ever eat those?

You, you, why wouldn’t you get the right one? Right. So I think that they’re, you’re right. This is where it’s sold. Yeah. We’re, we’re gonna hear this a a lot today. Yeah. And in the next episode about the importance of communicating and keeping open with having that conversation. Yeah. ’cause I think that’s so critical.

Yeah. Because it’s, it’s

All: a vicious cycle, right? It’s so, um, [00:26:00] again, for guys that are very performance driven, um, we’re sup you know, the, it’s, it’s drilled into us right? From, since we’re young, we’re supposed to be the provider, the protector. Yeah. Uh, we’re supposed to be that stable source, um, that. If we start to feel at home like where we do make efforts, uh, that it’s not, it’s not landing properly.

Yeah. Or we’re not doing it right. We can ti over time start to feel like we’re failing on the home front.

Kate: Yeah.

All: So where do we double down? At work where we feel like we are actually more successful, more capable, more whatever, which is not, I mean, it’s, it’s completely, it’s like the wrong thing to do, but we end up putting more energy over here because at least that makes us feel good.

Look at what I did, look what I built today, look what I achieved. But then we come home and we feel like we’re just not met. We’re not meeting the grade. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Kate: Yeah, it does. And I think what Wendy said is so important. Yeah. It’s like women. Need to let go of the control. And there is a lot that it becomes, I think, and I don’t know when it happens, but there is like [00:27:00] this weird period where it all of a sudden shifts and you’re like running the house.

Like that’s how it feels for a lot of women. And to let go of one piece is maybe very scary that if you let go and the diaper’s not on right, the baby’s gonna poop everywhere and it’s gonna be like, but you. It’s so important that you allow your partner to participate. Yeah,

Eric: and I think for guys, uh, we need to stop using the excuse.

Well, I’m just not good with details. Yeah, yeah, right. Oh, that’s a cop. Yeah’s a cop. Yeah, it is. It is a cop though. You ask any, well, not any guy a coward. You ask a lot of guys. Oh, what’s, uh, what’s your quarterback’s rating? And they can name that. Yeah, they can, right. You ask them about the details around how the, how’s your team doing this, whatever.

Mm-hmm. And they, they, so we know details. We, we can pay attention if matters to us. And so I think for guys to stop using the cop outs and pay attention to the things that, yeah. Our women are doing and then be able to say, Hey, I can take care of that. Yeah. I love that. I love that because

All: I think we can, we definitely hide behind that.

I think, again, if we’re talking about the importance of communication, we, we talk all the time with our clients [00:28:00] about effective delegation.

Kate: Yeah. And

All: effective delegation is naming what needs to be done. Mm-hmm. What it looks, what success looks like. Are there any special ways. That needs to be done as information.

What information do I need to do that successfully? Uh, and what does done actually look like? Um, again, I think there’s a lot of guesswork happening, uh, with partners where I like when, just take that off of me and a guy’s going. Uh, okay. Now I’ve not done that or it’s not something I’m used to doing, so I’m sure there’s a, I’m sure there’s a system.

I’m sure there’s, uh, things that you want it done a certain way, and if I don’t know that, like what if we just had those conversations to say for sure, I’m happy to take that off your plate, but here, help me understand. What, what do you need? Uh, you know, what are you flexible on? Yeah. And what, what is some things that are really important to you so that when I do it, one, I feel like I’m set up for success.

And two, um, it actually lands for you that, uh, I mean, I, I think those would be very interesting. That’s great conversations. Yeah,

Eric: absolutely. [00:29:00]

All: We have those all the time.

Kate: I know we don’t. We don’t. I know we don’t. No, we don’t. But we don’t. So like in all fair, but we don’t live together, but we don’t live together.

Yeah. So when we live together in the summer, I would argue like at the cottage, we share space and that’s like you’re, we’re together a lot. Mm-hmm. But we don’t live together and we haven’t had a lot of those conversations. I can’t wait. It’s gonna be so fun.

All: Yeah. I’ve got Dr. Sherry on speed dial.

Eric: So we’re talking communication and of course, um, I know this is gonna be a shocker, but communication is made up of words.

I know you heard it here first, not just words though. Hmm. Uh, and, but why is it that we often, the words we use land differently for men and for women? Hmm.

Wendy: Well, I think kind of going back to what I said before around like you guys see the task, you, you have task intelligence baked into your DNA. We have emotional intelligence based, I mean, you, it’s.

I don’t, it’s not, we’re

Eric: generalizing here.

All: Generalizing, I guess. Yeah. So I think like it’s more of a more, [00:30:00] more task focused, more, yes. Yeah,

Wendy: exactly. Versus more emotional intelligence. Yeah. So I think sometimes when things land differently, we’re seeing the emotional side of things where you’re seeing, right?

So as an example, like one of the best decisions Rob could ever make is deciding, right? Yes.

Eric: Ready

Wendy: is deciding what to make for dinner. Because I just, and I know he means well when he asks like, what do you feel like for dinner? And what about this, or what about this? And when I’ve. I’ve been working 14 hours.

I just, I don’t wanna make any decisions. So he’s seeing task, I’m seeing, I’m so fucking tired. Yeah. I honestly don’t care. I just want to come home and just sit down and eat. So for me, that’s the emotional piece of it. Yeah.

Kate: I think a great, like tying into that is like, I’m gonna use the the when, when. A man asks a woman, how is she?

And she’s like, I’m fine.

All: Well, we all know that’s not true.

Kate: Right? But men, men more typically will hear words. [00:31:00] Yeah. And and take it literally. Whereas if you said You’re fine. Yeah. Right. Whereas when, and it really depends how I say it, whereas women tune into. Tone and the emotion behind it. Right. Whereas I’m like, I’m fine.

Like clearly I’m not fine, but I might just say I’m fine and I’m not. But when like women tune into the emotion behind the words, and I think men often just take the word as literal without reading between the lines.

All: Yeah. No, I would agree with that. I think we, again, we, we hear things differently. We feel things differently.

Yeah. I, I have to be honest, I don’t feel anything about dinner. Right. Like, uh, uh, I don’t feel anything about how we stack the dishes in the dishwasher. Um, although

Wendy: I do, I feel it in the depths of me. I feel. Why, what

All: does it, what does that mean about, uh, uh, in a relationship? There’s always that one person who stacks the dishes in the dishwasher, like an engineer, and the other one’s like a raccoon on a crack, actually.

Eric: She’s the crack. She’s the crack. She’s, I

Kate: can’t do that.

Eric: Sometimes I open up that dishwasher and I’m like, what the fuck? Yeah. [00:32:00] I have to say my wife

Wendy: or my kids. Is it a dog? It’s just interesting. Did

Eric: the dog fill or did

Wendy: the, did Mishka. Yeah. You’re a, you’re a special dishwasher person.

All: Well, I, I would say I’m the same.

So there’s certain things that we do care about, but I think we It’s it’s what you value. Yeah. And, and it’s, that’s not always communicated. So if there’s, uh, I think if anything, if I’m hearing is like, don’t make any assumptions around. Those things, like have the conversation. Yeah. Do you, do you prefer to have things done this way and Yes.

And if I don’t feel strongly about it, then it’s like, I’m happy. Okay. You want to stack this way? Like, that’s, that’s fine. Um, but if we don’t know, um, and, and it’s not communicated. I think I’ve often said like nobody’s a good mind reader. No. But I think sometimes. Men feel like we need to be able to read minds and that we’re almost held to that standard that if you can’t, if you really loved me, you would know what I’m feeling right now.

And I’m like, oh my God. Like that’s, that’s a, I barely know what I’m feeling most of the time.

Kate: Yeah.

All: And you’re asking me to translate what you are feeling in the recesses of your soul. It’s not been [00:33:00] communicated. I can tell something’s off. I mean, I think most guys have enough. Knowledge to know when something’s off.

And I think most guys know not to say anything. Not to say no, but if they hear, I’m fine. I think most guys No, no you’re not. Yeah. Like that’s the telltale sign that you’re not fine. But

Kate: they, they might know, they might read it, but then the, they’ll also to Rob’s point, not dive into, well, hey, I asked her.

That’s great. I asked her right now, I, I’m gonna go put the garbage in now

All: because maybe that’s what it is. I don’t know. I gotta

Eric: do No, but, but you’re right. We’re, we’re not. So no one’s great at mind reading, but if you. If you could wave a magic wand Oh, and there was one air, one place where you wish that, uh, men would be a bit of a mind reader would be able to just know instinctively to, to be able to track what you’re doing.

Yeah. And what would be something that as, as women, that you would love that men could just get,

Kate: I, there’s, so there’s another one where there’s a lot. Yeah. I think for me, the biggest thing is. If I’m [00:34:00] insisting that we need to get something done today, it’s because I’m looking at you. But if I, I am insisting on it, it’s because, and I might be insisting in a passive aggressive way.

I’ll own that, but like it’s because if I don’t do it today, I’m in my computer head knowing. That like, if we don’t wrap the furniture in the backyard today, I know I’m not gonna get to it for another two weeks because I am single parent. All these doctor’s appointments, I have work, we have this. Like I won’t have actual time to wrap the furniture.

Like, and I know that seems like a really basic thing, but if, if I’m asking us to. Tackle something. It’s ’cause in my head I’ve already mapped out that if I don’t do it today, I’m not gonna get to it. And that stresses me out and I’m just using, wrapping the furniture. But sometimes it’s just like, and for you, you might be like, well, I don’t know.

Why are you doing it online Wednesday? Why are we like. Because I haven’t communicated that at all. Right? But in my head I’m like, why can’t you understand that I can’t do that and blah, blah. And so my dialogue is like running, like, can’t you see my [00:35:00] computer? I need to print it out. Can you see all those web

All: browsers open in my mind?

Oh God. It’s not like the old computers that had the tape, you know? And you could go back, look at it like she could follow. We don’t have that. Right? Totally. So, uh, unless that’s clearly communicated, here’s why I think it’s really important to do today. I know, again, one of our challenges is because we don’t live together.

Literally we manage three different properties between three different households, between the two of us. ’cause we have a cottage and we have the um, right. So during the summer we’re literally managing, uh, three properties. It’s lot. It’s a lot. It’s a lot. It’s lot. It’s a lot. It’s a lot. So sometimes I’m like not wanting to do anything in this moment or wanting to delay it.

’cause I know I’ve gotta do the same thing at home. When you go home. But it’s, it’s the notion of, again, the communication piece is so important. Yeah. Um, uh, but for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes we just don’t say what, so, or, or communicate what we actually need in the moment.

Kate: Yeah. So I’d like a mind reader is what it’s, so what, what is,

Eric: well again, we’re going back to communication.

What, what does good listening look like? Stick up. Both gonna say

All: the opposite of what you guys do. [00:36:00]

Wendy: Um, just be present. Yeah. Present and. Non-reactive. Mm, but not, not engaged. So do this, but not this, but make sure you’re doing this, but not this. You got all that.

All: I got

Wendy: it. No, and I, our

All: listeners are so confused because I know I am

Eric: only the guys.

Only the guys are all like, ah, I didn’t get any of that.

Wendy: You know, I think one of the best things that guys can do is just, you know. Give your partner a hug and just say, let’s sit down. Tell me, tell, tell, tell me everything. Tell me more. Right? If we’re starting to say like, this happened, this happened, tell me more.

You’re really good at that. Like you’re very good at being very connected. Like you’re, you’re not the type to be, you know, on your phone or scrolling when I’m, you know, feeling my issues or my, you’re really good at, let’s talk this through. That then allows me to do a better job. ’cause I. I’m working [00:37:00] on, well, Sherry, in my head, I’m working on recognizing that, you know, you’re not a mind reader.

So when we were talking earlier, but why can’t you understand, you know, because in my head, I think why doesn’t he just, yeah, why doesn’t he know? Can’t he see my body language and how I’m feeling? But I’m like, no, no, like I have to use my big girl words. Just having you say like, tell me more. Tell me what happened.

Tell me about your day. That just kind of allows the barriers to come down and for me to share knowing that you’re not gonna be judging.

Kate: Yeah. It’s that safe space. And I think with that, uh,

Eric: and Kate, I want to hear your thoughts on this. Yeah. ’cause it is interesting for, even for, for guys like. I might be watching football game or a hockey game.

Here’s what I’ve learned is that because everything’s streaming now, you can literally hit pause. You’re not gonna miss the game. So you can actually be in the moment. Guys, that’s just a little trick for you. Uh, but no, I think there is that idea of put the phone down, turn it upside down, like get rid of the distractions so that you can actually be present and hear the more.

Kate: Yeah, I love that. Like, I think put putting, like flipping the phone, putting the phone away. I [00:38:00] think giving your. Your person, their true attention. And I, I, I love how you say that. Like, tell me more. Allow your partner to, like, they need to just get it all out. Like I know, like I just need you to hear everything I’m saying, and I don’t want you to solve anything.

I just, I need you to listen. And I, I need a pocket that’s just for me in this moment. Like, I need it to be all about me because I need to get it out. And then once it’s out, it’s amazing. What you’ll find on the other side mm-hmm. Is we we’re, we calm down, we soften, we are more vulnerable. We are like, it just, it can completely change your state.

You think about when you come home like cranked and then you have a great conversation with Rob that you feel heard and understood and then you just. Then you slowly just start. Then that’s when that great connection can happen. But if you’re wired here and you’re not getting what you need here, you’re, that’s the [00:39:00] disconnection again.

You’re just not communicating.

All: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, so on a good day, yeah. Uh, we’ll talk more about, we really want to keep this conversation focused on, on you guys. Yeah. Uh, uh, there’s, there is a version of Invisible Load that guys carry. It’s different than yours for sure. Um, uh, but it, it shows up. And so, uh, agree with everything that’s been said.

I think it’s a amazing to like. When your partner is signaling, uh, I need you to listen right now or I’ve got to share some stuff with you. Yeah. Um, uh, I will say that on a good day if I’m doing good, I think I show up pretty good there. I think most like

Kate: of course you do. No,

All: no, but I, but I, but I don’t say that.

I think I show up pretty good there, but that’s assuming I’m at a hundred percent or 80% or higher. Yeah. Um, what do you do on days where you need that? Let me, I, you need that from me.

Kate: Mm-hmm.

All: But I’m at like 40%.

Kate: Mm-hmm.

All: So I’m hearing you share your load and I’m wanting to rise up to that, but I am, I’m, I’ve had a shitty day or I’ve [00:40:00] had a shitty week.

I’m feeling depleted. I’m feeling what’s some, what are good strategies in those moments when you, you’ve, you’re leaning on your partner. Yeah. ’cause you need them in that moment, but right in that moment, particular moment. Despite best intentions, your partner just may not have it in them because they’re exhausted, depleted, carrying stress.

Kate: Yeah,

All: pressure, right? I think you

Kate: communicate. Again, I think it has to be that, like I love, we’ve used it before on the show, but Brene Brown, like, I’m at 10% and you’re like, I’m at 10%. Great, okay. We’re not gonna have those conversations when we’re both depleted. I don’t think anything good is coming from those.

I don’t think anything good is coming from those conversations. Agreed. I think what’s important though is for your partner to understand like, like it’s shit for me right now and I really wanna talk this out. And if you’re like, Ugh, I can’t, like I’m at 10% agreeing that you’re gonna revisit it. Yeah. So again, there’s a space and a time to feel heard.

Yeah. I think that’s what’s.

All: Critical. It’s like honoring the moment, but [00:41:00] recognizing is this the best time? Yeah. And

Kate: it’s very rare that two people are both sitting at 10%. Yeah, that’s true. Like I’ll, I’ll be honest, like I don’t that it’s very rare that you and I would both be at 10.

All: Yeah.

Kate: But it does happen for sure.

On might be

All: 12.

Kate: Yeah, I could be at like 13.

All: I could, I’m made 14.2,

Kate: 15.6,

All: and all of a sudden it was a

Eric: game, competi. Shocking. Shocking. And yet that is a secret too, when all of that is happening. I was gonna say that the best way when everybody’s at. 10 or 20 Just have sex and then yeah, then you’re feeling good now guys are like ready now.

Oh my God. Okay, now I can listen. Such a my day just got a whole lot better.

Wendy: You guys are always ready now. Oh yes. No, I don’t think that’s true. I think

All: that’s a myth actually. Like. We, yes guys think visually and, and, uh, but in many ways we share the same thing. Yeah. If the, if, if we’re feeling depleted, if we’re feeling stressed out, if we’re feeling the last thing on our mind might be sex.

Right. Right. A hundred percent. Because it, it requires [00:42:00] that, uh, right. That the mood’s gotta be right. Like it there, there is a sense of that for us too, and I think sometimes we oversimplify the sex thing. Yes. Yeah. There’s a performance.

Eric: Yeah, well, there’s a performance issue too. There’s expectation too.

And for guys, that’s a big

All: deal. If I show up and I try to, and I’m just not gonna show up because of X and Y and Z, um, right. Then again, I I have failed as a man. Yeah, exactly. Uh, then we carry that whole thing and that’s, yeah, no, they’re absolutely

Eric: right. I, I had a professor that. Uh, I remember way back he used to describe it as an original to him or not, but men being like a pizza pie.

Uh, right. It’s all compartmentalized slices and women are like spaghetti where everything is blending in together. And, and so even when it comes to, you could be having a lousy day at work, but you’re com compartmentalizing that from sex to, you know, money to all of these things. ’cause separate, there’s some truth to that.

It still does. To your point. Spill over. Yeah. A little bit. Mm-hmm. Let’s, we’re, we’re gonna maybe 10 more minutes where we dive into Yeah. Let’s have some real kind of, I [00:43:00] mean, we’ve been doing this, all this already is, is just real couple talk. Mm-hmm. Uh, when did listening, when did you really kind of as, as in relationships, we’ve all had other relationships.

At what point did you recognize. Not real relationships. Yeah, that we’re fine. Thank you, Rob. Yeah, yeah. But when did, when did that whole, the concept of listening and, and, and that connecting and, and communication really kinda land for you?

Kate: So, I have an example. I won’t say it’s the moment it landed for us, but Eric and I, at some point, we were not communicating well and.

We moved it to email and it was, I moved it to email. You moved it to email? Yeah, and it was an epic disaster for us because I think what happened is the intent was good to try and get all the emotions out, but I don’t think either one of us was truly listening to the other person. It was just, I need to get out, well, how, this is how I’m feeling, and, and we both had our own turn at that.[00:44:00]

We only sent one email each for the record, and then we quickly realized this is not. This is not helping, this is we’re not communicating. Mm-hmm. And we’re certainly not listening. So I know that in that moment we both realized that we need, well, A, we have an agreement. Mm-hmm. We’ll never email or text in that way again.

No. But we, I think what we learned is like we need to communicate, like we need to be talking face to face. We need to have the hard conversation, even though it’s hard and it’s super uncomfortable. We need to do that. Yeah. Or we’re, we’re filling in gaps all over the place through email. That was a big one.

Yeah. For me. And, and,

All: and again, uh, just reminder to the listeners, we don’t live together. So on weeks where we’re not together, that’s

Kate: hard.

All: Yeah. Um, that gets really, we, we talk about the yin and yang, right? Yes. Of, uh, uh, of that. And, uh, that’s something we’re working on. But, um, and in that particular issue, uh, this was, uh, an issue triggered by like.

A pretty deep rooted, um, uh, wound for me. Yeah. Um, [00:45:00] and so my, my mo, my, uh, I, I tell everyone, don’t ever use email or text. I’m the first one to say that, and yet in that moment, that’s the only place I felt safe to say what I commu. Not that you’ve ever given me any reason to feel anything but safe, but that again was an issue pretty damn close to, um.

It was really hard. Yeah. But like the, the point is the having the conversation in person, uh, not sending, um, even the texts, Hey, we really need to talk. Like, then you’re wondering all day, well, what the fuck is that? Right? Mm-hmm. Um, I, I think having the, building the muscle, developing the skill Yeah. And the courage.

To have the open and honest conversations face to face, uh, is what a lot of couples lack. Um, and so that’s where the passive aggressive behavior shows up. Mm-hmm. And where we avoid and we hide and, and resentment just builds, like never in the history of humanity, has not talking solved a problem. Yeah.[00:46:00]

Eric: There you go. Right. But I, but I love. And you both used the, the same word about, uh, you said ground rules, setting the ground rules. Mm-hmm. And I think that that’s so important, right? I mean, you know, to your point, you don’t live together sometimes having those conversation we’re, we have many day of the week.

W in the moment when it’s real. Yeah. You and I as business partners, we often have communic. We’ll be communicating on some stuff and when we do it by email, I think for both of us, it never really lands as effect. Mm-hmm. When we talk in person, we feel the body language. Yeah. And in, in person, we know we’re on each other’s side.

Mm-hmm. We’re all, we’re in this together. Sometimes email you’re to your, I love it. You’re, you’re getting your pointing. Yeah. So setting the ground rules. We have guiding principles that we follow at, at, at rhapsody. Having the. Ground rules with a couple on how communication happens is so important. And don’t set the ground rules when you’re really pissed off.

Yeah,

All: no. You need to set them than your a good

Eric: glass, glass, peace time set. The

Wendy: peace well and text is just such a easy [00:47:00] tool that we have. Mm-hmm. Um, and. I know this isn’t the topic, but even all, all of us raising kids mm-hmm. Because of the power of text, it’s now teaching other generations that you know Oh, you know, just, you know, you’re texting back and forth and nothing is getting solved ’cause you’re not actually communicating.

Yeah. And you’re texting can so become, and that’s, you know, when my first marriage fell apart, um. You know, he wasn’t a great communicator. Not that I’m a phenomenal communicator by any means. Mm-hmm. But you quickly realize when you’re using text to, to talk about an issue or try to solve something, it becomes more about you defending what you are trying to say 100% versus the actual connection.

And then that’s when everything collapses or can collapse.

All: I, I am seriously, I’m glad you raised it. I mean, I, and I think every, every parent, um. [00:48:00] Has the same fear. Of our kids and how the, uh, of the impact of things like short form content, TikTok, texting reels, the inability to communicate, um, I, I, I’m frightened for what life will look like in 20 years from now.

I have to be perfectly honest. Yeah. We struggle with communication. Mm-hmm. We didn’t grow up with all that stuff. Yes. We had the internet, we have email and we, and we, and we struggle, but we had to fundamentally learn. At least some basic communication skills that I think a lot of the younger generation growing up.

Yeah. That’s scary. And that’s, I’m not trying to label a whole generation here, but I think the trend is away from face-to-face and it’s hiding behind screens and it’s keyboard warriors and it’s um, uh, right hiding behind digital tools and, um, I just don’t think that serves us well. Put the tools away and, and well, and it’s build that muscle.

Yeah. Yeah. I, I, well

Eric: have the privilege, uh, of often we both do of, of, well, all of us do, of, of, uh, [00:49:00] students. Speaking, public speaking, and we have the opportunity to often go and speaking, uh, to companies and to different clients. Uh, and I often will get asked to speak about how to have difficult conversations.

And you know, at the beginning of it, I’ll always ask Why do people struggle with difficult conversations? We get all kinds of different reasons. And then I always say, what’s, because for most of us, we don’t even know how to have a conversation. Let alone a difficult conversation. Right. Struggle just with the basic do.

We didn’t know how to do that. And so one of the things I would encourage every couple is to get in the practice, really make it a ritual, having conversations about whatever the topic is. Yeah. But to learn how to have conversations so that when you need to have a difficult one, you’re already conditioned to how to listen, how to, how to ask clarifying questions and, and all of those things.

Yeah. Let’s, we’ve got, let’s let, can I just make another point before

All: you shift? Us to something else. Uh, you and I have talked about doing this, we haven’t implemented yet, but, uh, about a regular check-in conversation, right? Like once a month where we’re, when we’re out together, just the two of us just to check in.

How are we doing? Is there anything that’s been [00:50:00] bothering you that’s, you know, has, we haven’t had the time to kind of explore, like, explore or talk about? Uh, I’d really like us to do that, I think. But I think, uh, talk about doing the wrap. When you say like, we have to get into the habit of being more proactive as opposed to reactive.

Why do men sometimes, why do we respond when we see the emotional response? One, it puts us right into fight or flight. Yeah. I’ll be perfectly honest. We are and, and triggers every man code.

Kate: Mm-hmm.

All: Or right line of code, uh, to fix it and, and make it go away and make you okay. Mm-hmm. And I, I make sure I don’t wanna fuck it up and make it worse.

It triggers all of that. A lot of that is because, um, we’re not. On both sides of the equation. I think we’re not making time to check in. Yeah. And be proactive and we’d be able to check in, say, Hey, you know what? I should, lately, I’ve been finding this hard. Okay, well let’s talk about that and what does that look like?

We do it, we, we, we encourage that on the health side, right? We say. Be proactive with your health. Don’t wait till your body [00:51:00] tells you you need to do something. Yeah. ’cause by then you might be in trouble. Be proactive with your health. Well, I think we need to be proactive about our relationship health.

Eric: I love the idea of mm-hmm.

Of a monthly check-in. And I know that for some they’d be, oh, but, but what if that’s uncomfortable? And, and again, good. There’s a great quote, right. We, we trade short-term discomfort for long-term dysfunction. You know what’s

All: really uncomfortable? Um, it blowing up because we haven’t been dealing with things and then you’re sleeping on the couch.

Becomes, week becomes, becomes how uncomfortable part part of the relationship. Yeah. Yeah. What’s

Eric: one, what’s one small tweak that’s kind of happened, uh, in relationship? I mean, that’s a great example of one regular. We haven’t done it yet. What would be, no, but it’s a great example. But what would be kind of one, uh, a small tweak or shift that you’ve seen that has really made a difference?

Wendy: Like in our

Eric: relationships? Yeah, in our, in, in, in your relationship and in, in how and me being able to understand you or you feeling heard, things like that.

Wendy: Um, I think just taking a genuine interest [00:52:00] in. Not just me and what I like, but how my mind works and what’s important to me, which might not be as important to you, but just to have that genuine care, um, and the ability to just sit down and connect.

Like you have great eye contact when you’re speaking to people, and I’ve noticed it. When you’re coaching and all that kind of stuff, but even with us, like when I feel you really just taking a genuine interest in me and what makes me happy and what makes my mind work, that that’s, that’s been huge for us over the past couple years.

Kate: Yeah. I think for us it’s that we have our foundation and we agreed to that early that I talked about it before, but our foundation is. Is solid,

All: non-negotiable.

Kate: It’s non-negotiable, and so it allows a safe space for us to be able to have those hard, uncomfortable [00:53:00] conversations. We don’t love them. We don’t like them, but we have them and we know.

That we can have them because the foundation is strong. And I think that is such a pillar and a strength of our relationship is because we know that like it would take a whole lot to rock that foundation. Yeah. It’s not because you’re like really structured with the dishwasher, but it would take like a lot for that foundation to go and knowing that and creating that safe space mm-hmm.

Means I can be emotionally vulnerable.

All: Lemme go off script here. Yeah. Before we wrap things up, um, and, um. You feel free to what is one thing. I could do differently. That would really be a game changer for you.

Kate: Are, are we in therapy?

All: No, no. I, but I think these are the kinds of therapy, these are the kinds of questions like couples aren’t asking each other.

Right. So I don’t

Kate: know. I’d have to think about that. Yeah. I don’t wanna just whip out an answer and say, ’cause there’s nothing that I can like on the tip of my tongue.

Eric: Okay. Well, we’ll be, but I will

Kate: take that away. Yeah, yeah,

Eric: yeah. That’ll be your monthly dinner. That could be our monthly journey. I think second.

That’s [00:54:00] great question. I love that question. Remember

Kate: having, it’s just, it’s a meaningful question. I don’t wanna just percent

All: hundred, but it’s an example of the type of question again, that’s proactive. Yeah. What, what, what could, what’s one thing I could do differently? Yeah. That you’re currently, that’s missing or isn’t insufficient supply that would really make a difference for you.

Mm-hmm. Like it’s not always just checking in. No, nothing’s wrong. Okay. Well that’s a check-in I suppose. Yeah. At least nothing’s wrong, but we’re talking about if pro, that’s still reactive. That’s like, did I do like, are we okay? Totally. Are we good? Yeah, we’re good. O okay. But nothing’s been learned.

Nothing’s been really communicated. Yeah. That’s

Wendy: reacting, not nurturing. Yeah, not nurturing. The other is nurturing. Say what?

All: What could I do differently? What? You know, what’s missing and vice versa. What’s missing for you? What’s one thing I could do that really be helpful? Um, I think those are the types of conversations.

That’s great. Yeah. That lead to greater understanding, greater compassion, empathy. I, I think at the end of the day, we’re wired differently. ’cause we’re wired differently. Totally different is not weird. Different is just different. Um, but when we make the effort to understand and communicate [00:55:00] better. Um, it makes a world of difference.

Yeah. Um, in relationships here. Yeah. I

Eric: agree. Alright. Lightning round. Okay. Last, last question. This is just for the two of them. It’s a, well, I was about, say it’s a lightning round, but just for two of you, it’s a half lightning round. Is, is that what it is? No, because it’s not. Totally, because they’re gonna make up, it’s gonna

All: sound like a full, okay.

Shut up. Okay.

Eric: What, uh, if, if you could give men one sentence, uh, to remember from this conversation, uh, what would, what would that be?

Kate: You. Don’t have to fix her feelings, but make room for her feelings. That’s what I

Wendy: would say. Uh, and I would say listen to understand and not necessarily defend.

All: Ooh, I’m both very good.

I’ll

Eric: tell you, I, um, I was expecting this, uh, episode to be my kind of all, almost just more playful and everything. Uh, this one’s hit home. Mm-hmm. Like, I’m feeling it right now. I’m feeling you’ve got a lot to do now. I guess I’ve got a lot to work on. I’ve got a lot to think about. Like, if anybody around this table, brother, like, [00:56:00] I don’t know.

Um, and, and I wanna just thank all of you for taking the time to, to tune in, to listen. I hope this episode and the one that is gonna be following it, uh, hit home for you as much as, as much as I’m feeling it right now, recognizing how beautiful it is to have these kind of conversations. And so encourage you to check out, uh, the Living Richly Nation.

You can, uh, find out so much more information about the community around this, like, and share out this episode. We want to thank our, our, our, uh, sponsor for. The, uh, podcast, which is Rhapsody Strategies, our business company. Uh, and if you know anybody that is, uh, really struggling in leadership and, and wanting to run an effective company, uh, point them to Rhapsody Strategies and Men, I wanna just for a second just wrap up by talking to you.

Um, I want to just give a shameless plug to my, my great friend Eric’s, uh, group the Foundry. Um, that’s a place the found foundry for men.com. Go and check it out. Foundry for

All: Men Number. Four. Yeah. Number four, do

Eric: uh, for [00:57:00] men.com. Uh, we’ll put the link, uh, we’ll be there. But go and check that out. It is a place where guys can encourage and challenge and learn from one another on how to have and start these meaningful conversations with the people that matter the most in your life.

Uh, don’t miss out ’cause it’s an incredible place where you really can find encouragement from guys who will talk about more than just. Beer, uh, however you say that. Business, business, sports, exactly. All of that. Uh, thanks again for taking the time. Hope you check out the next episode where we’ll talk about the, uh, things that guys wish Whitman understood more about them.

Uh, until then, get out there and live your best life.