Redefining Success – How to Achieve True Career Satisfaction

Redefining Success – How to Achieve True Career Satisfaction

Michelle Schafer [00:00:02]:
If thinking especially about a career change or even just leaving an organization. What do I have to lose by doing this? And then the second one the flip of that. What do I have to gain? What’s going to open up for me? Some people I’ve spoken to that say, I’ve never been fired up by my work and that’s so talent. They say, I don’t like what I’m doing or I don’t like where I’m doing it, but help me. I don’t know where to start and I don’t know what kind of plan I need to put together to

Rob Dale [00:00:41]:
Leap podcast. So glad that you could join us again this week. This is episode 99. That means only one more, and you know where we are. No. 100. Oh, yeah. No.

Rob Dale [00:00:54]:
We are I didn’t know that.

Eric Deschamps [00:00:56]:
You did know that.

Rob Dale [00:00:57]:
No. We are gonna be 100 episodes Yeah. Next week, and, so excited. It’s gonna be a great celebration. Wanna encourage you. Hey. This episode is gonna be amazing. Yep.

Rob Dale [00:01:07]:
Episode 100 is gonna be amazing as well, so we wanna encourage you to check it out. But so glad that you’ve joined us again. We are really excited about having our special guest here today. Michelle Schafer is with us. Michelle is a career coach, and has had all kinds of incredible conversations with people who are learning how to transition from one role to another. Part of what we’ve talked about often in in the Living Rich Lee message

Eric Deschamps [00:01:33]:
All

Rob Dale [00:01:34]:
the time. Is you recognize that if you feel stuck in where you are, you don’t have to stay that way. Right. And part of living your best life is finding the things that you love to do and experiencing those in play, but also in work. And we’re gonna have some conversations around that as well. So welcome, Michelle. So great to have you here with us today.

Michelle Schafer [00:01:54]:
So excited to be here with both of you.

Eric Deschamps [00:01:57]:
Yeah. This is so great. I mean, I we, we’re all all connected on social media. We can attest to, 1, your expertise in this area and, how you’re helping so many people find their way. As Rob was saying, people spend 40, 50 hours a week on the job. Life is too short to be unhappy, and yet so many people are unhappy in their job. We thought maybe tell us a little bit about the current landscape. I mean, COVID, you know, things were already a little, confused before that, then COVID showed up and said hold my beer, and changed the game.

Eric Deschamps [00:02:26]:
But what are some of the trends you’re seeing? And then we’re gonna get into some questions to help our listeners kinda, reevaluate where they’re at and perhaps if a change is needed for them.

Michelle Schafer [00:02:35]:
For sure. I mean, I think that’s a great way to lead in because the one great thing that came out of the pandemic was people actually hit the pause button where they weren’t hitting the pause button before. So, you know, we had all this time. We were at home. We weren’t really seeing people. So people started to reflect. And one of the things that they were reflecting on was their career. They were thinking about what they were doing and where they were doing it.

Michelle Schafer [00:03:00]:
And that’s where some of these feelings of not feeling fulfilled, really realizing those things. They probably were aware of these things for a while. Yeah. But the pandemic really was a good, you know, lightning bolt to really bring all of those reflections forward.

Rob Dale [00:03:14]:
I know that, you know, again, Anne, you had people literally all all around that were dying, and exactly would be that is is I I don’t know how much time I have left. Is this what I wanna be doing with my time? Exactly. Yeah. So what were some of the trends that you saw?

Michelle Schafer [00:03:30]:
So a few of the things that started happening when people were realizing, hey, you know, I’m I’m not really liking what I’m doing or where I’m doing it. So there was a trend called the great resignation where we saw en masse, people were leaving, people were exploring, they were trying to leave and go somewhere else. And that really created a lot of shift and transition in the job market. But then that trend was followed up very quickly with a trend that maybe didn’t get as much airplay called rage apply, where some people were so deeply unhappy. They were just firing off resumes all over the place, which is where that name came from. They were angry, and they just wanted to get out. And so they were just sending resumes all over the place.

Eric Deschamps [00:04:11]:
They didn’t necessarily want the job they were applying for, but it was an act of saying, I want some something’s gotta shit.

Rob Dale [00:04:17]:
And I remember and I remember I remember working with some clients, and and in that season, they were like, you know, we put out a a position, like, for a a driver, and we get 700 applications. And 680 of them had 0 qualifications as the driver. Like, you’re like, what is this? Yeah.

Michelle Schafer [00:04:34]:
But, I mean, that wasn’t a really great strategy. You know? Just firing off resumes everywhere because people didn’t have a target. They were just trying to get out. So the one thing that trend signaled was there’s a lot of people who want something different. But then the big question was, well, what do you want? And that’s where when I talk to people and they come to me, they say, I don’t like what I’m doing, or I don’t like where I’m doing it, but help me. I don’t know where to start, and I don’t know what kind of plan I need to put together to find something that’s a better fit for me.

Rob Dale [00:05:04]:
Yeah.

Michelle Schafer [00:05:04]:
And that takes a lot of planning to be able to find something new.

Rob Dale [00:05:07]:
So we’re gonna talk through a bunch of those theories and kinda cover them, but but maybe let’s just take a step back. How the hell did you get there? How did you get to like, what what’s the journey towards becoming a career coach? What’s a bit of your own experience in the workforce?

Michelle Schafer [00:05:24]:
Oh, thanks. That’s a great question. I mean, I love hearing the stories of other people. I have my own story too. So my career started in financial services, morphed to not for profit. And if you asked me about 25 years ago, would I have been a coach? I would have said, hell no. Like, that

Rob Dale [00:05:40]:
that wouldn’t have been so I won’t go.

Michelle Schafer [00:05:42]:
Yeah. Exactly. It wouldn’t have been on my radar at all. But I’ve experienced 2 significant restructures. And so both of those restructurings, when I lost my job, precipitated the need to find something new. And I was in the same boat as my clients, not knowing what that would be. So I left financial services after 18 years.

Rob Dale [00:06:02]:
That was

Michelle Schafer [00:06:03]:
my first job out of high school

Rob Dale [00:06:04]:
Wow.

Michelle Schafer [00:06:05]:
And not knowing where to go and had to reinvent myself into something new. I knew I wanted to get into not for profit, so I moved into that direction, did a lot of exploration. But when I was in not for profit, I also lost my job. And so a really good coaching friend of mine, just one of my best friends, who is a coach, planted the seed before I was let go the second time. And she said, I never understood why you didn’t do this as a career. And at the time, the timing wasn’t right. But then when I lost my job the second time, I felt like that’s the universe telling me to explore that.

Eric Deschamps [00:06:38]:
That’s amazing.

Michelle Schafer [00:06:38]:
And so I started talking to people, networking with coaches, and the rest was history. I realized that this was a colleague of mine, and I really wanna help other clients who were in a similar situation to me.

Eric Deschamps [00:06:49]:
Sounds I mean, the story reminds me very much so of, you coming to me back in the day after you were transitioning out of your former career, and you were do you know anybody who’s hiring? And what did I ask you? My question was, have you ever thought of coaching?

Rob Dale [00:07:05]:
It often takes but often isn’t that

Eric Deschamps [00:07:07]:
what like, we’re we’re the universe is a funny way, an interesting way of nudging us along. Sometimes even it feels like against our will.

Michelle Schafer [00:07:15]:
Sometimes it is. But those seeds are planted for good reason. Like, I I look at I look at career exploration kind of like like a tomato plant. Like, anybody who’s had a garden knows you plant the seed. Right? But then you have to wait. There’s timing. You have to create the right conditions for something to grow and thrive. And that’s oftentimes how it works with our careers.

Michelle Schafer [00:07:35]:
We can have seed seeds planted. Maybe the timing isn’t right. Maybe we need to do something about it, but eventually, those seeds can really take root and something beautiful can grow

Eric Deschamps [00:07:45]:
from that. Yeah. What were what were some of the key lessons you learned during that season of transition where Mhmm. You were now okay. I I think I’m I’m finding my way forward, but, that’s that’s really nerve wracking for a lot of people to go from security to not security

Michelle Schafer [00:07:59]:
to Exactly.

Eric Deschamps [00:07:59]:
Clear what I’m doing today to what I’m not. So what were some of the key lessons that that landed for you during that time?

Michelle Schafer [00:08:05]:
There are a few things. I mean, one is the importance of having a plan. And I recognize the first time I lost my job, I just started looking for work, and I had no idea what I was looking for. I had no idea what to do. Yeah. And so having a plan that involves, you know, looking online, you know, talking to other people, doing a lot of networking was a big learning of mine. Mhmm. The other was the importance of asking for help and being open to receiving help.

Michelle Schafer [00:08:33]:
Like that idea of, you know, it takes a village to do anything these days. Looking for work is one of those things. And so when you engage with your own network of support and people that are there to cheer you on, to encourage you, sometimes it’s even just to receive all of your frustration over, you know, applying for a job and not getting it. It’s really important to engage those people in your circle.

Rob Dale [00:08:56]:
We talk so much, on the podcast in well, in the 100 because we had 98. No.

Eric Deschamps [00:09:02]:
No. We’re at 99. 89. We’re 90. 99. Sorry. 99. Plus 1 and we did the math already.

Eric Deschamps [00:09:07]:
Plus 1, we get to

Rob Dale [00:09:08]:
a 100.

Eric Deschamps [00:09:09]:
Right. Yeah. 1 more. Rob Mac.

Rob Dale [00:09:11]:
So in in dozens of episodes There you go. We talk about the power of community Yeah. And the importance of community. And I think, you know, you could talk about maybe the the the planning before is before your term. Like, if if we wait until crisis to start to set ourselves up with some of this, and that’s why I think it’s so important to today start finding your community, your

Michelle Schafer [00:09:34]:
tribe. Absolutely.

Rob Dale [00:09:35]:
Today, start figuring out what matters to you.

Michelle Schafer [00:09:37]:
Yes.

Rob Dale [00:09:37]:
Because then you’re ready, so you’re not reacting in those moments.

Michelle Schafer [00:09:41]:
Well and, I mean, the way our careers oftentimes work is they just go. Like, it’s very rare that we take that step back and hit that pause button that I mentioned before, you know, and and reflect on what’s important to me. What kind of organization do I wanna be part of? And it’s not until things happen that all of a sudden it calls all of that into question. So there’s so much that we can do beforehand and not just let, you know, like a friend say, oh, like, go and apply for this job because it’s a great fit, or, you know, like, you just kinda move from one to the next. Be very intentional about your career moves, and that’s a path to fulfillment.

Eric Deschamps [00:10:17]:
Yeah. 100%. I mean, it reminds me of when, so similar to me to you. Sorry. What prompted me to become a coach is losing a job that I was in, and that was a reason Yes. Wasn’t performing, but the the company got restructured. I was out and young family, whatever. And, everyone’s telling me, go find a job.

Eric Deschamps [00:10:35]:
Go find a job. So I’ve I’ve put out resumes, which I had never done actually until this

Rob Dale [00:10:39]:
Okay.

Eric Deschamps [00:10:39]:
I’d never had to until this point. And got 3 interviews immediately, like, pretty quickly and within a week of each other. And I went to each and every one of them and in every case, they wanted to hire me, but I wasn’t excited about working for them.

Michelle Schafer [00:10:52]:
Oh, interesting.

Eric Deschamps [00:10:53]:
What it was triggering for me was what I recognized is I there was a measure of excitement, but it helped me clarify that, no, I don’t actually think I would enjoy working in this role. Uh-huh. But I know that I can help a leader like you. What I recognized is that these owners, these leaders had struggles, had pain, were looking to bring in staff to help address it, and that actually got me on the path of, becoming a business coach. Right?

Michelle Schafer [00:11:14]:
That that

Eric Deschamps [00:11:15]:
this is part of so sometimes even without a plan, I think when you’re in motion and you take steps, the way can become a bit more clear. But I think it’s better to think it through, than to kinda go at it. We don’t, you know, go at it without any kind of sense of it.

Michelle Schafer [00:11:29]:
Absolutely. I mean, looking for work without any plan is is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Now I’ve never actually done that. I imagine it would be Sounds pretty hard. Frustrating.

Eric Deschamps [00:11:39]:
It’s the same for a reason.

Michelle Schafer [00:11:40]:
Yeah. Exactly. And I mean, you know, for for people who are you know, they’re they’re in roles that maybe they’re not fulfilled with, even before they start looking for something else, there’s step a step that they can take first, which is talk to your leader. If you haven’t already done that

Eric Deschamps [00:11:56]:
Yeah.

Michelle Schafer [00:11:56]:
You know, engage your leader in a conversation about, well, here’s the things that really energize me. Here’s the opportunities I see I’d like to take advantage of. Or maybe it’s a conversation about workload and reprioritizing things. Like, try to make things work where you are. And then as the next step, then you can start planning and reflecting on, you know, what’s the work that really does give you energy? What’s the kind of work that maybe you’re known for, but it it saps your energy now. Nobody wants a job where they’re doing stuff that that saps your energy. But also, like, to your point, Eric, think very seriously about the kind of organization you want to be part of. Like, what’s the best organization you’ve ever worked for? What was their mandate? What were their values? What kind of leaders were employed? What kind of team members to make sure that your next step can be really aligned.

Michelle Schafer [00:12:46]:
And then also think about your deal breakers. I call those non negotiables, but, you know, for a lot of people, especially since the pandemic, location has become a big non negotiable. They either want to be in the office, or they don’t wanna be in the office, or maybe they want the flexibility to have a bit of both. And people are turning down really great opportunities even because of that nonnegotiable because it can’t be honored. So, you know, the more that we reflect on what’s important to us, then we can be very intentional about seeking out those opportunities.

Eric Deschamps [00:13:15]:
I love that because that’s, in in alignment with the entire Living Richley message is the vast majority of people aren’t clear on who they are. They aren’t clear on what they stand for. Yeah. And so they drift. They just coast through life. That’s true. Now and then, they bump into happiness or bump into fulfillment. But how can you truly experience more happiness and fulfillment unless you get clear on what are my nonnegotiables? Whether that be at play, in your personal life, or, professionally.

Eric Deschamps [00:13:40]:
And again, often, our emphasis we work with, as you know, we work with, business leaders, executive leaders, large organizations, small and small. And a lot of our leaders, their challenge is they they put too much energy into the business and not enough energy, in their life. So that’s often where our conversations are about continue to build a successful business, would build a successful life. But if you’re unhappy on the job, that is going to weigh you down when, it’s I remember talking to 1 guy who worked for the federal government. I’m gonna name I’m not gonna say which department. I’m not gonna name him. But he’s young. He he I think he was, at the time, about 17 years away from retirement.

Michelle Schafer [00:14:16]:
Oh, wow.

Eric Deschamps [00:14:16]:
And when I was talking to him, this was probably 5 years ago, he told me he’s miserable. He hates his job. He

Rob Dale [00:14:21]:
isn’t

Eric Deschamps [00:14:22]:
quite fulfilling at all. Common story. And I’m like, so I I asked him, so why are you there? Like, why do you stay? He goes, well Good question. My pension. And I’m like, so you’re gonna be miserable

Rob Dale [00:14:31]:
Mhmm.

Eric Deschamps [00:14:31]:
For the next 17 years.

Rob Dale [00:14:33]:
It’s a

Eric Deschamps [00:14:33]:
long time. That’s a long time. Like, the cost of that misery, is not worth any pension as far as I’m concerned. Right? And I loved how you mentioned talk to your leader first.

Michelle Schafer [00:14:43]:
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Explore those things. I mean, it’s interesting, you know, because, you know, I have people coming to me that you know, to your point, they’re recognizing that life is too short. And if I’m unhappy now, what is that going to look like in 5 years, 10 years, 17 years? Right. So then it begs the question, well, what can I do now to be able to bring more of that fulfillment into my life? And, Rob, you mentioned it earlier. Like, some people, they feel like they might be stuck, and we have choices.

Michelle Schafer [00:15:14]:
There are options. It’s just a matter of figuring out what those options are and then putting together a plan to be able to suss them out.

Rob Dale [00:15:21]:
So we talked in our last episode, we we did a a a show all around how to have difficult conversations, how to prepare for them, what to do during, what to do afterwards. It was, I think really, you know, I certainly learned some stuff in the episode, and you clearly needed to learn some.

Eric Deschamps [00:15:39]:
I still

Rob Dale [00:15:40]:
need the episode back in the back in the and jump. Chloe, some time.

Eric Deschamps [00:15:43]:
We’re really

Rob Dale [00:15:43]:
Exactly. Go easy on me. I’m learning. You’ve got someone who is unhappy. Mhmm. And you mentioned a few minutes ago, you know, go to your supervisor, go to your leader, talk about the things that give you energy that how do you figure out what those are? How do how what are some what are some kind of real practical ways that somebody can prepare

Michelle Schafer [00:16:03]:
Yeah.

Rob Dale [00:16:04]:
For that conversation, and lay out how do how do I figure out what gives me energy, what doesn’t nothing gives me energy with my dog. Right? That’s what some of you, like,

Michelle Schafer [00:16:12]:
there’s no problem. Yeah.

Rob Dale [00:16:14]:
Yeah. So so what what advice would you have as to what are some ways they can figure that out?

Michelle Schafer [00:16:20]:
For sure. I a lot of those clues are maybe not even in what we’re doing today

Rob Dale [00:16:26]:
Right.

Michelle Schafer [00:16:27]:
But they could be in things that we’ve done in the past. So I always encourage people to, you know, certainly look at what fires you up today. You know? So if you, you know, led this large large project and you loved, you know, managing all of the deliverables and creating the project plan and following up with people, then that’s the source of your energy. That’s a big clue. But for some people, the source of what gave them energy isn’t in what they’re doing today, but it’s what they did in their last job or

Eric Deschamps [00:16:58]:
Right.

Michelle Schafer [00:16:58]:
5 jobs ago. It could even be in their volunteer work. There might be things that they’re doing, you know, kind of off on the side, outside of work, that they really enjoy doing. So, you know, it takes some reflection, but really thinking about, okay, well, when was the last time I was fired up about the work that I was doing? And then more specifically, what was I doing that got me all fired up? Right. What elements of that really give me energy? And those are the things that you want to bring to your leader to be able to see what opportunities are there for me to engage in that kind of work. And I always call it information for the bank, how a leader is going to respond.

Eric Deschamps [00:17:37]:
Yeah.

Michelle Schafer [00:17:37]:
So if a leader is very supportive, maybe gives you cross training opportunities, introduces you to other people in the organization to get some new experience, that’s information for the bank that, hey, maybe maybe this is the right place for me. There’s some career progression here. But if a leader either a, doesn’t want to have the conversation or b is very vague or noncommittal Yeah. Or commits and doesn’t deliver, then I call that information for the bank for the reason that that might be, you know, kind of the starting point of you wanting to do something different. And for some people, it’s the starting point to perhaps leave the organization and find something else.

Eric Deschamps [00:18:15]:
We we talk so much on the show about controlling your controllables. In other words, control what you can control, put your best energy there as opposed to trying to control what you can’t control. To your point, you can’t control what your boss or how your manager’s supervisor is going to respond even if they don’t respond the way you’d hoped, which is in a support. Let’s face it. People don’t quit jobs. They quit their manager. Exactly. There’s a lot of and I I I I’m gonna say this, and then I’m gonna I’m gonna make a secondary statement.

Eric Deschamps [00:18:44]:
There’s a lot of bad managers out there, but the reality vast majority of that is due to lack of training. It’s not malicious or

Rob Dale [00:18:49]:
whatever, but we are we are promoting people without the proper support

Eric Deschamps [00:18:50]:
and and they’re feeling overwhelmed, so they often don’t have the bandwidth. But regardless of why they’re not being supportive, if that’s the case, you have not wasted your time one bit by getting clear within yourself about what matters to you.

Rob Dale [00:19:07]:
And I love what

Eric Deschamps [00:19:08]:
you said. When was the last time I got fired up about my work? Mhmm.

Rob Dale [00:19:10]:
And

Eric Deschamps [00:19:11]:
then you you talked about even looking into your personal life. Sometimes, you might not be able to recall. If it’s been a long time, you might have to. When was the last time I got fired up? Period. Hearing.

Michelle Schafer [00:19:19]:
Yeah. Well and there are some people I’ve spoken to that say, I’ve never been fired up by my work, and that’s so telling. I mean, for me, that signifies that that person has something waiting for them. Like, there’s something out there for that person Yeah. But they just haven’t figured it out. They just haven’t discovered it yet. There’s so much exploration that can come for somebody that is really searching for something that will really give them energy and will really fulfill them.

Rob Dale [00:19:46]:
Okay. So I’ve had my conversation with my leader Yes. And the leader is reacts negatively. You’re gonna go, just, hey. Just go sit down at your desk and shut up.

Michelle Schafer [00:19:55]:
Yeah.

Rob Dale [00:19:56]:
Right? Suck

Michelle Schafer [00:19:57]:
it up

Eric Deschamps [00:19:57]:
with your mouth.

Rob Dale [00:19:58]:
Does happen, Mark. Oh, yeah.

Michelle Schafer [00:19:59]:
It does happen, unfortunately.

Rob Dale [00:20:01]:
I I I’ve decided to leave the job. Talk about, what about exit strategy? Before we actually talk about how we find another job, how do we end a job well? And I’ll give an example. The very first job I ever, quit, I was 16 years old, and I worked for one of the, fast food, places. And the way my stepbrother and I, the way we quit was we threw fries in every fry, basket, left him in the thing, went out, slashed the manager’s tires. The statute of limitations is over. Yeah. So you can you can see us openly without even Thankfully, the technique is not The specific restaurant, it was actually the it was Harvey’s on on Donaldson.

Michelle Schafer [00:20:44]:
No one was armed

Eric Deschamps [00:20:46]:
in this Yeah.

Rob Dale [00:20:46]:
It no longer exists. It’s not there. So

Michelle Schafer [00:20:49]:
Exit strategies Is that a good exit?

Rob Dale [00:20:51]:
Is that a good exit strategy?

Eric Deschamps [00:20:54]:
Not the tick

Rob Dale [00:20:55]:
show. You know?

Michelle Schafer [00:20:56]:
Yeah. No no comment on that. Oh my gosh.

Rob Dale [00:20:58]:
Alright. So how do I end a job well?

Michelle Schafer [00:21:00]:
Yeah. So How do

Rob Dale [00:21:01]:
I quit a job well?

Michelle Schafer [00:21:02]:
So, I mean, you know, it’s it’s sometimes, it’s kind of like breaking up a relationship. Right? Especially if it’s been a relationship, like a working relationship that you’ve been in for a long period of time. Now before I talk about that, I will also say I really strongly advise waiting to exit a job until you have a plan and another job. That tends to be the better way.

Rob Dale [00:21:24]:
Right.

Michelle Schafer [00:21:25]:
Especially financially, you wanna make sure that there’s some security, as opposed to just, you know, slashing the tires and leaving, like, bye bye.

Rob Dale [00:21:32]:
Don’t do that. Yeah. What every time

Eric Deschamps [00:21:35]:
I’ve said, don’t

Michelle Schafer [00:21:36]:
do that. Try this at home. Exactly. But a a really professional, respectful way is to be clear on, you know, briefly the the reason why. And a great way to frame this, I believe a lot in reframing, I know you both do as well, is to help your leader understand that at this point in my career, I’m really clear about the things that are important to me and especially about the work that gives me energy. So for somebody who is maybe in a job and, you know, like, they’re not doing the things that really give them energy anymore, be clear about this. You know, like, I am looking for an opportunity where I can, like back to project leadership, where I can lead large projects, for, you know, financial institutions and position that, you know, your next step is in line with that. If it’s a situation where maybe the environment is toxic or things like that, obviously, we don’t want to bad mouth a leader or the workplace, but bringing it back to what are your values? What’s important to you? And that you’re seeking out environments that really embrace those values where there’s a lot of connectivity.

Eric Deschamps [00:22:46]:
I love that. I love that. It’s like, again, if we don’t get clear about what we like and don’t like, what what sets our heart on fire and what’s

Rob Dale [00:22:54]:
Yes. We call it, in

Eric Deschamps [00:22:55]:
the 15 day life vision challenge, which literally takes you through identifying your personal core values, what what you stand for as an individual. It helps you identify. We call it your happiness inventory. What are what are the things that give you joy, that give you energy, fire you up? What what what’s your energy drain what would make your energy drainless? These are the things that, you know, they really you you can do them, but, man, they you’re exhausted afterwards. Yeah. The more you do that, the more clear you get on what’s important to you, then the more you can create a life that’s like that. And and and I would assume that, it sounds like if you go from one job, just leave one job because you’re unhappy and take another without doing that work

Rob Dale [00:23:35]:
Mhmm.

Eric Deschamps [00:23:35]:
You’re kind of you’re kind of, sealing your fate to just keep repeating that

Michelle Schafer [00:23:39]:
mistake. Totally. It’s it’s like a Like relationships. Exactly.

Eric Deschamps [00:23:42]:
I was gonna say exactly the same thing. It’s like you leave a bad relationship. You don’t do the work to find out what am I learning about myself? Did that help me? You don’t do that work. You just look for someone else to take you into their arms, and you’re you’re likely gonna repeat the same pattern over and over and over.

Rob Dale [00:23:58]:
Well, and

Michelle Schafer [00:23:58]:
that’s why trends like rage applied just, like, didn’t work because they, you know, there was no intentionality. There was no reflection. There was no plan. It was just, okay. I’m just gonna jump over the fence and hope that the grass is greener on that side. Well, you come to realize after time, the grass is burnt on that side as well as where you left.

Rob Dale [00:24:15]:
Right.

Michelle Schafer [00:24:16]:
So, you know, when you do that reflection, it just helps you carve out a better path. You can intentionally seek out those opportunities that line up to what’s important to you. Like, my why, you know, Simon Sinek talks about the why of doing a lot of things. So my why is that I really believe that every individual can find work that gives them energy for a company that believes what they believe in.

Rob Dale [00:24:40]:
Mhmm.

Michelle Schafer [00:24:40]:
And that’s my why. That’s my purpose, and I really believe that for everybody.

Rob Dale [00:24:44]:
Yeah. I so appreciate. I think that’s great, and I so appreciate that, you know, when when it comes to that exit, for a lot of people, they use that as the opportunity to dump. Right? Here’s all the horrible things you are, right, and and versus being able to just own it for themselves. This is about me making a decision, not about you. Now what would you suggest? What advice would you give to somebody? I I don’t know what the percentages of of companies that do exit interviews. Right? Most don’t Low. Low.

Rob Dale [00:25:16]:
Low.

Michelle Schafer [00:25:16]:
Low percentage.

Eric Deschamps [00:25:17]:
Most don’t want.

Rob Dale [00:25:18]:
Most Most most

Eric Deschamps [00:25:19]:
don’t want the feedback.

Rob Dale [00:25:20]:
But some do.

Eric Deschamps [00:25:21]:
Yeah. Some do.

Rob Dale [00:25:22]:
And even if they don’t, would would you encourage somebody to ask for an exit interview? And what would that what would that look like?

Michelle Schafer [00:25:30]:
Yeah. I mean I mean, that’s a really good point, you know, because it is an opportunity to share things that you’re observing or experience that will enhance the working environment for everybody else. And, you know, it’s it’s kind of like asking your leader for, you know, a career development conversation. If the answer was is no, then, you know, maybe that’s a confirmation that this company doesn’t believe what I believe in, and it’s time to move on. I’ve

Rob Dale [00:25:59]:
made the right decision.

Michelle Schafer [00:26:00]:
Exactly. Exactly. It’s validation

Eric Deschamps [00:26:02]:
Yeah. For sure. So we wanna get into in a moment talking about, like, because we’re we’ve been focusing on get clear on what matters to you, have those conversations to see if perhaps there’s some some room where you currently are to find more of that fulfillment, but ultimately, if not, then you’re looking for something else.

Rob Dale [00:26:20]:
Yeah.

Eric Deschamps [00:26:21]:
Why do you think so many people stay in dead end careers and in jobs that they’re unhappy in? What you have these like, we’ve had a lot of conversations with leaders in transition Yeah. But you do this far more than we do in terms of those why are they staying in dead end jobs?

Michelle Schafer [00:26:37]:
Gosh. There’s there’s a number of reasons. I mean, financially, for some people, it’s driving kind of like the example that you shared. Somebody working in government, they have a pension, and they feel like, oh, if I leave this, I’m gonna be giving all that up. They call it the golden handcuffs for

Eric Deschamps [00:26:53]:
very good reason.

Michelle Schafer [00:26:54]:
Yeah. So financial motivations are are part of it. Yeah. Limiting beliefs around looking for work are also part of it. And I’ll break those down into 2. 1 is I haven’t been in a job search for a long time. I don’t even know how I would start looking, so therefore, I’m not going to do it. Or the other one, there’s, you know, a whole lot of things around.

Michelle Schafer [00:27:15]:
Well, I I really can’t look for work because, like, you know, nobody’s getting hired now, and I’m older, and so ageism is a thing, and nobody’s gonna hire me because I’m older and don’t have this experience. So those limiting beliefs can sometimes keep us, and it’s it’s a fear. Yeah. You know, when when individuals start to look underneath that fear, like, well, what’s keeping me here? And what are the reasons why I can’t make a move? Then really amazing things can happen. That’s where those roadblocks start to open up. And sometimes, you know, when people even just do an introductory conversation with me, a number of people will say to me after, like that 30 minutes as an introductory conversation was the best for me because it just helped to widen my view on what was possible. And I love hearing that because it just goes back to everybody has choices. It’s just a matter of having some support and and a plan to get you there.

Eric Deschamps [00:28:14]:
I love that. Because we talk about being stuck. All of us have felt stuck one time or another, but more and more, I’m convinced stuck is a state of mind.

Rob Dale [00:28:22]:
Oh, completely.

Eric Deschamps [00:28:23]:
Never as stuck as we think we are. But stuckness is a horrible place to be because you honestly come to believe I have no options. Right? I have to stay Like,

Rob Dale [00:28:31]:
it’s hopeless. It’s like exactly.

Eric Deschamps [00:28:33]:
Stuck has it. But the more people understand you always have options.

Rob Dale [00:28:37]:
Mhmm.

Eric Deschamps [00:28:37]:
They’re gonna be uncomfortable. Like, is it hard to leave a career or leave a job? Sometimes it’s a complete career change. Right? We can talk about that. There’s fear attached to that, and that’s gonna be difficult. It’s gonna be challenging, but you’re currently in a place where you’re unfulfilled, unhappy. That is hard too. So, you know, choose your hard. You either stay in the hard that offers no hope for change because if you keep doing what you’ve always done, you’re gonna keep getting what you’ve always got.

Eric Deschamps [00:29:03]:
The other hard offers hope that you can find a better role. You can find something more fulfilling. So on it’s really moving from fear, to hope. Right?

Michelle Schafer [00:29:13]:
Well, there’s 2 questions that help to kinda crack through that too. One is if thinking especially about a career change or even just leaving an organization, what do I have to lose by doing this? And then the second one, the flip of that, what do I have to gain? What’s gonna open up for me when I, you know, when I make a move? And when people start to think about that, they realize, you know what? Yes. There are some things that I have to lose. Like, maybe it’s a pension, but wow, look at what I can gain, like, not fearing or hating going to work on, like, thinking on a Sunday night, oh my gosh, I have to go to work on Monday. You know, being able to engage in a fulfilling way with colleagues, like working for an organization that, like, truly does believe what you believe in, like the the values alignment. They can get behind the work that they’re doing. There’s so much potential. But again, like, you know, having the plan is really important.

Michelle Schafer [00:30:06]:
Like, you know, you don’t just wake up one day and decide, I’m gonna quit my job, and I’m gonna do something else.

Eric Deschamps [00:30:11]:
Right.

Michelle Schafer [00:30:12]:
You need like, the reflection is obviously the foundation, but then the second part is figuring out how to get there. And so that’s where I look at, like, a 3 pronged strategy to help help individuals actually look for something else. You know, one is looking on job boards. Like, once you know what’s important to you, take that to the job boards, like LinkedIn, Indeed, CharityVillage for not for profit, or just a few. But looking online is only about 20% of a 100% effort to look for work. Wow. So the remaining 80% is all relationship based. Like, engage with some recruiters, you know, form relationships with them.

Michelle Schafer [00:30:50]:
They hold the bag on some really interesting possibilities. And then the bigger one, of course, is networking. Like, reach out to people, make a list of all the organizations you’re interested in, and then try to get conversations to find out what are their challenges and how can you add value. And that way, you’re gonna uncover some really interesting possibilities

Rob Dale [00:31:08]:
for yourself. As soon as you said the word networking Yes. You had a whole bunch of people that all of a sudden just curled up in a ball. They just turned the show off. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They they all of a sudden just were like, yeah.

Rob Dale [00:31:19]:
Don’t get off, but they’re doom scrolling now. Panic. Right? It’s like, no. No. No. I’m safe behind my computer doing an online search. I think some might be afraid. They they might search indeed, but they certainly don’t wanna they’re not putting their information out there because what happens if somebody sees it.

Rob Dale [00:31:35]:
Right?

Michelle Schafer [00:31:35]:
Yeah.

Rob Dale [00:31:36]:
But the networking thing is terrifying for most people, whether it’s for job searches or even for business development. We talk to business owners going in a so talk about some strategies around, effective of networking when it comes to job searching.

Michelle Schafer [00:31:53]:
So networking, I also like into, like, going on vacation, which is you wouldn’t go on vacation without having a plan, like, just like your job search in in total. So with networking, the rolling eyes or the curling in a ball like that, the fear. Right? There’s a lot of fear that comes from it. When I talk to clients about, well, what’s holding your back from this, I oftentimes am able to uncover with them, like, some key limiting beliefs. Like, limiting beliefs being those things that we we think or we assume about an activity or a person that limits us from being able to take some steps forward. So

Eric Deschamps [00:32:28]:
key programming.

Michelle Schafer [00:32:29]:
Yeah. Exactly. But these are beliefs that are, like, deep seated for a lot of people. So one of the key ones is, you know, people are too busy. So I can’t ask them for a conversation because they’re probably gonna say no. So there’s a lot of rejection fear that comes from that. The other limiting belief is, okay. Well, I can’t talk to, you know, somebody senior in an organization like a CEO, an executive director, a senior vice president, because that person’s too busy, you know, leading the company.

Michelle Schafer [00:32:56]:
Why would they want to talk to somebody who’s like many steps down the corporate ladder from me? And then the other one is, well, I don’t know how to do this, you know, and I don’t have a network. So how I work with, clients to help, you know, reprogram those limiting beliefs, really reframe them is, first of all, to help them understand that over 90% of people want to help. They just wanna know how they can help. So if there’s 10% of your network who, you know, ghosts you, they don’t say anything, disregard the 10%, focus on the 90%. But also think about, you know, all of the people that you know. You know, any one of those people can introduce you to an organization that is of interest to you. And a friend of mine in a networking group that I was part of years ago had this saying, look through your network, not at it. Meaning sometimes we limit ourselves by just looking at the people who we’re immediately connected with, then we discount them.

Michelle Schafer [00:33:52]:
We think, oh, like, I want to get into, I don’t know, like banking, or I don’t know anybody in my circle who’s in banking. But yet every single person in our network knows hundreds of people, chances are, look through the network Yeah. And ask for conversations with those people. I do have people I

Rob Dale [00:34:09]:
can reach

Michelle Schafer [00:34:09]:
out to. But then the other

Rob Dale [00:34:10]:
part of it is,

Michelle Schafer [00:34:10]:
how are you going to ask for the conversation? Like, be prepared. Have a impactful message that, you know, is very clear about your intent. Don’t just say, oh, I’d love I’d love to go for coffee with you. That’s, you know, very, very vague.

Eric Deschamps [00:34:32]:
You better have a reason. If especially, like,

Rob Dale [00:34:34]:
to your

Eric Deschamps [00:34:34]:
point, people are busy, not too busy, but they are busy. And and they don’t wanna just get together with some person they barely know to grab coffee. Exactly. There’s a reason. There’s an ask. There’s something specific you’re looking for.

Michelle Schafer [00:34:46]:
Yeah. So maybe it’s, you know, you want to explore new career path. Oh, help me understand how you got into coaching, for example. Or maybe that individual works for a company that’s of interest to you. In your message to them, you can say, I’m really interested in your organization. I’d love to just learn more about what it’s like as a place to work and some of the key priorities that you’re wrestling with. So you make that intention very clear in the meeting request, and oftentimes, people will respond to that. So it can having the preparation

Rob Dale [00:35:15]:
scheme And to your point, it does work. And I’ll, you know, very quickly, just three examples of this even that I have seen. And now these were it’s a different situation. This was for family members, but I have over the years, I remember a bunch of years ago, my brother was ready to get out of drywall and was looking for something else to do, and he called me up and he said, like, I help me figure something out, put a post. I I literally just put something on Facebook, and the next day he had a job. Bing. You know, my oldest daughter, same thing. She was she was trying to put out she got a she ended up with a job of federal government that she’s been now doing for 6 years.

Rob Dale [00:35:52]:
Amazing. Like, amazing stuff. Yes.

Eric Deschamps [00:35:54]:
And and

Rob Dale [00:35:55]:
then, Wendy’s youngest daughter this past summer. Hey. 16 year old kid looking for work. Got a job that not only took her through the summer, but now she has a, a a job that she can keep doing all through school. It’s awesome. It and it took no effort for me. Now I’m not gonna do that for every single person who asked Yeah. Only because

Eric Deschamps [00:36:14]:
only if

Michelle Schafer [00:36:14]:
I flooded after this episode.

Eric Deschamps [00:36:16]:
You can reach Rob at Rob at livingrichly dot me. No.

Rob Dale [00:36:20]:
No. No. You can reach Rob at error at livingrichly dot me. You know, but the the reality though is to your point is when you ask somebody who is in relationship with you

Eric Deschamps [00:36:31]:
Yeah.

Rob Dale [00:36:32]:
Who has got that connection, they’re more than happy to do they took no effort for me to do that. And if it can help, and I I we’re afraid to ask

Michelle Schafer [00:36:40]:
We’re very afraid.

Rob Dale [00:36:42]:
We flipped the script. And what if somebody came to you and asked? Exactly.

Eric Deschamps [00:36:46]:
You’d probably Yes. But there is I think there is, though, for a lot of folks, because I agree with you. Like, if you if you’re if you sit and wait, you’ll be sitting and waiting a very long time. One of Yeah. You’ve heard me say it on the show probably ad nauseam. Stop waiting.

Michelle Schafer [00:37:01]:
Yeah. Things are not gonna fall from the sky. Start

Eric Deschamps [00:37:04]:
creating the life you want. Stop waiting for it. Because if you’re waiting, you’ll be waiting a long time.

Michelle Schafer [00:37:08]:
Exactly.

Eric Deschamps [00:37:08]:
But it does take, that outreach. It does take stepping out of your comfort zone. And there’s a lot of folks that are very uncomfortable with anything that even looks like self promotion. Yeah. How do you help them overcome that?

Michelle Schafer [00:37:22]:
Yeah. I mean, that’s a really great question because that is a barrier for a lot of people, like, where they feel like they’re selling themselves, and they don’t like that feeling of selling themselves. So a way that I help them reframe that is when you’re talking to people about, you know, what you’re all about, the kinds of things that you’ve done in your career, think of it not in terms of selling yourself, but simply sharing the facts of your career. And the facts of your career, yeah, you have, you know, done these different things. You’ve led a team of 50, or, you know, you created this program, or you led this project. Think results and things that have been outcomes of what it is that you’ve been achieving and share those. And the other thing too that helps people get past it is people will never know about you and what you’ve done unless they tell you unless you tell them, I mean, because they’re not mind readers. You have to be specific about

Eric Deschamps [00:38:15]:
I love that because we just had that. We the, of course, the the episode right before this one, was all about dangerous conversations. And one of the things was, like, people cannot read your mind. Yeah. Like, you cannot possibly know. Like, people do this in personal relationships.

Rob Dale [00:38:29]:
They should know better.

Eric Deschamps [00:38:30]:
They should know what I’m thinking.

Rob Dale [00:38:32]:
They should.

Eric Deschamps [00:38:32]:
And that’s problematic. So no no different in the workplace. How will people know what you want, what you’re looking

Michelle Schafer [00:38:38]:
for Yes.

Eric Deschamps [00:38:39]:
Unless you articulate it. But let me ask this question. In a lot of organizations asking questions, asking for trouble, and even in an organization that has a healthy culture

Rob Dale [00:38:49]:
Mhmm.

Eric Deschamps [00:38:49]:
The power dynamic between employee the the the it’s it’s an unbalanced power dynamic between employer and employee.

Rob Dale [00:38:55]:
Yeah.

Eric Deschamps [00:38:56]:
It’s one thing for an employer to ask something of an employee. That’s going down the chain. Now I’m using that language. I don’t like that language, but people understand what I’m talking about. It’s a whole other thing to find your courage and go up the chain

Michelle Schafer [00:39:07]:
Yes.

Eric Deschamps [00:39:08]:
And have a conversation potential conversation about, listen. I’m really looking for other opportunities. I’m not really fulfilled. Like, that is not an easy conversation

Rob Dale [00:39:17]:
to have.

Eric Deschamps [00:39:17]:
So how do you prep people for that?

Michelle Schafer [00:39:19]:
So, you know, the and that’s that’s a really great question because it is something that, you know, can be a stumbling block for people, and it just it keeps them in those those jobs where they’re just not fulfilled at all. So, you know, we’ve been talking a lot about doing the reflection, doing that kind of preparation. So don’t just go into the meeting and try to wing it. You wanna make sure

Rob Dale [00:39:42]:
That’s probably not gonna go over well.

Michelle Schafer [00:39:44]:
No. Because, you know, then you’re not you’re gonna miss some things, or maybe the conversation then goes in a different direction. So it’s just all about being professional and framing it. And, you know, kinda going back to I have done a lot of reflection over what’s important to me in my career. These are the things that I would really enjoy doing. I would be really fulfilled doing.

Eric Deschamps [00:40:05]:
Yeah.

Michelle Schafer [00:40:05]:
And so, you know, I am seeking out other opportunities, you know, so maybe those opportunities can come within the organization. But if not, then that comes back to the exit conversation, you know, helping helping a leader understand. But, you know, back to what do you have to lose if you like, if you don’t have that conversation, what are you giving up by not doing it? And that sometimes can be the the gate opener.

Rob Dale [00:40:29]:
But I

Eric Deschamps [00:40:29]:
love your approach. It’s it’s focusing on those I am statements. You’re not going in to say, you guys aren’t giving any opportunities. I’m you’re a horrible employer, like, it’s more about I’ve been reflecting on what matters to me. So it’s it’s focusing on what you need and then seeing how that lands. Right? And you’re not going in there to be confrontational and make demands. You’re exploring.

Michelle Schafer [00:40:49]:
Well, sometimes those leaders too, it’s really interesting where, you know, depending on the relationship with that leader, that leader can actually open up the door for a connection somewhere else.

Eric Deschamps [00:40:59]:
Right.

Michelle Schafer [00:40:59]:
So, yeah, they could be very supportive of that person’s career development, we would hope. And I’ve seen it happen where leaders from the organization that the person is looking to leave or is leaving, they’re able to make connections to other places, which is amazing when that happens.

Rob Dale [00:41:16]:
Alright. So I’ve stepped out of the comp my my, comfort zone.

Michelle Schafer [00:41:19]:
I’ve

Rob Dale [00:41:20]:
done my networking. I’ve Are you leaving?

Eric Deschamps [00:41:22]:
For help.

Rob Dale [00:41:23]:
I’m I’m in the process. Is this where I’m

Eric Deschamps [00:41:24]:
I’m hearing about it, like, on the show first.

Rob Dale [00:41:27]:
That’s it.

Eric Deschamps [00:41:28]:
We’re gonna have to

Rob Dale [00:41:28]:
Find another studio. Find another studio.

Michelle Schafer [00:41:31]:
That’s a problem.

Rob Dale [00:41:32]:
Oh, no. Steve’s coming with me. Oh. Hey. Hey.

Eric Deschamps [00:41:39]:
Fuck you, Steve.

Rob Dale [00:41:43]:
Now you

Michelle Schafer [00:41:43]:
can take all these tech peeks there. Okay. Now I gotta find something new.

Eric Deschamps [00:41:47]:
That’s right. That’s right. Exactly. I’m prepped now.

Michelle Schafer [00:41:49]:
You got a plan now. There you go.

Rob Dale [00:41:51]:
So yeah. So I’ve reached out. I’ve I’ve asked. I’ve networked. I’ve asked, Yeah. Somebody’s connected me. And now I’ve got I’m I’m in a job interview. I’m getting ready for a job interview.

Rob Dale [00:42:01]:
Yes.

Eric Deschamps [00:42:01]:
Oh god. The dreaded

Rob Dale [00:42:02]:
job. The dreaded job interview. How do I handle the tough questions that are about to be dropped in the interview? Yeah.

Eric Deschamps [00:42:08]:
And the potential like, there’s there’s there there’s the fear of the in the conversation, but there’s a lot of emotion

Rob Dale [00:42:14]:
Yeah.

Eric Deschamps [00:42:14]:
That comes with that. Like, how do you brace or how do you pair yourself for that?

Michelle Schafer [00:42:19]:
Well, you just said the magic word, which is to prepare. Yeah. I have had some clients who say, but I’m much better in conversation when I’m just, like, in the moment.

Rob Dale [00:42:29]:
No. You’re not.

Michelle Schafer [00:42:29]:
Except that. No. Not exactly. In an interview, you really are not.

Rob Dale [00:42:33]:
In any situation. No. I that’s what I tell people. People tell me that all the time about, I’m gonna have this conversation with one of my

Michelle Schafer [00:42:54]:
posting, and I reviewed my resume. Good start. Tell

Rob Dale [00:42:57]:
me what else. So so

Michelle Schafer [00:42:57]:
the what else comes from, first of all,

Rob Dale [00:42:57]:
forecasting the kind

Michelle Schafer [00:42:58]:
of questions that are gonna come up. Put on your hiring manager hat and think, if I was hiring for this job, what are some of the questions that I would want to ask? And then line up all of your questions that I would want to ask? And then line up all of your specific examples. I mean, some listeners will understand the STAR approach. So STAR stands for situation, task, action, result. That’s a great way to frame your specific examples. Because if you don’t give proof and evidence that you’ve done the very things that the job requires, then they’re gonna go to another candidate who is able to do that.

Rob Dale [00:43:31]:
Said that really fast. So I’m gonna jump in

Michelle Schafer [00:43:32]:
Oh, yes.

Rob Dale [00:43:33]:
Okay. That’s important. So STAR stands for

Michelle Schafer [00:43:36]:
Situation, task, action, and result. So situation is the what happened, the task. It could be situation or a task. The actions are all of the things that you did to solve that problem, to launch that project, whatever the situation was, and then the

Eric Deschamps [00:43:56]:
this is the result I got. Yeah.

Michelle Schafer [00:43:58]:
Yeah. Yeah. The positive outcome. So line I always recommend the clients, line up all of your examples. Think about those questions, document, like sit at the computer and actually document some answers because in that way, when you practice them too before the interview, all of the responses will stay up here. Now, Rob, you asked about tough questions. So somebody who is leaving one organization to join another, they will almost certainly will be asked the questions, so tell me why you’re looking, or tell me why you left this other organization. And if somebody has been restructured like I’ve been in my past, and especially if that restructure or that that dismissal was came with a lot of emotions still that it feels very raw, that emotion is going to spill out into the interview.

Michelle Schafer [00:44:46]:
So I do recommend preparing for this response and really practicing it, like, with somebody that you know and trust to give you some good feedback and work through all the emotion, like, in the comfort of your own home. Now, how to answer that question about why are you looking? That’s something that confounds people. And if they haven’t prepared for this, I see a lot of things happening. Either they’re super brief, and they don’t really give much context, or they overshare, which you don’t want to do. Right. So I like to think of this. I I’m gonna call it the leaving story, whether somebody is still in the job or whether they’re not, because it is the story of why they’re leaving and looking for opportunities. And I like to think of this as a 3 part response.

Michelle Schafer [00:45:30]:
So the first part is be brief and give the reason. So if you have experienced a restructure, put it in the context of, you know, a business decision was made to eliminate your position, not a personal decision, but a business one. But then the next, oftentimes, people will stop there. But the next two pieces are critically important, which is piece number 2, talk about something that you loved about your last job or a result that you got that you were really proud of because then that helps the interview to realize this wasn’t a performance decision. This person did some things of value. And then part number 3 is bridge the thing that you love or the result that you got to the opportunity that you’re interviewing for. So I remember for me when I was interviewing for jobs and I had left find, not for profit, I was working with volunteers. So I would say, you know, like, I’ve loved working with volunteers and, you know, helping, you know, helping them get into new roles.

Michelle Schafer [00:46:26]:
And that’s why I love this opportunity. And I’m excited to talk to you about this today because I want to continue my work in volunteer engagement. So what you’ve done then is you’ve moved people from what happened to the future, and it’s an opportunity to articulate your value.

Eric Deschamps [00:46:44]:
Wow. Such great advice. Such great advice. I feel we can talk all day about this. Easily. Right? And, again, lots of lots of great wisdom being shared here.

Rob Dale [00:46:54]:
One

Eric Deschamps [00:46:54]:
more question for you, and then we wanna talk about something exciting that you’ve got coming out very, very

Rob Dale [00:46:58]:
soon,

Eric Deschamps [00:46:59]:
before we wrap up to today’s show. But, you’ve given lots of great advice as we prepare to kinda land the plane on today’s conversation. What are the core messages for someone who is watching this episode, they’re unhappy in their job or career, and they’re looking perhaps to make a change, What are the core messages that you wanna really drive home with them?

Michelle Schafer [00:47:19]:
Yeah. I’d say number 1 is make sure you have a plan. You know, looking for work is like going on vacation. You wouldn’t go on vacation without a plan. So having a plan is number 1. Number 2 is, you know, if you don’t ask, you don’t get.

Rob Dale [00:47:35]:
Yeah. You know,

Michelle Schafer [00:47:36]:
and I’m gonna apply that to networking, really. If you don’t ask for conversations, you’re not going to get conversations. And that really leads into the 3rd part, you know, which because it’s episode number 99, I have a quote from the great one, Wayne Gretzky.

Eric Deschamps [00:47:53]:
For 99. Oh, which

Michelle Schafer [00:47:54]:
is That’s

Eric Deschamps [00:47:55]:
wrong. You’re not the great one. Sorry. Sorry, man. Sorry.

Rob Dale [00:47:59]:
Yeah. She was the she was

Eric Deschamps [00:48:00]:
gonna say that, and then you announce that you’re leaving. She said, screw you.

Rob Dale [00:48:04]:
Everything’s wrong. It’s gonna be Wayne Gretzky’s Wayne instead. So what did Wayne say?

Eric Deschamps [00:48:09]:
What did Wayne say?

Michelle Schafer [00:48:10]:
Quote from Wayne Gretzky, which is you miss a 100% of the shots that you don’t take.

Eric Deschamps [00:48:15]:
Yeah.

Michelle Schafer [00:48:15]:
And so if you if you just stick it out in the dead end job or you stick it out hating your job and you don’t do anything about it, you’re missing out on so much. There’s so much potential out there. Everybody has a choice, and maybe there’s a 4th one there. This is not your forever place. I say that to clients so often that this is like where it might be uncomfortable right now, but it won’t be uncomfortable forever. You might be looking for work right now, and it might be very discouraging and taking longer than you thought, but you’re not gonna be unemployed forever. You will find new work. So this is not forever.

Rob Dale [00:48:53]:
Like, one of my mantras. So much value, and and I think it’s been excellent. So, yeah, what’s Michelle up to?

Michelle Schafer [00:48:59]:
So I am writing a book, which is very close to being published. It will be published in January of 2025.

Rob Dale [00:49:08]:
Yep.

Michelle Schafer [00:49:08]:
And it’s really geared for individuals who are looking to explore a new path, whether it’s your choice or whether it’s not, like if you’ve lost your job and you need to find something else. But it’s to help people understand basically the plan or the system to help you find new work. So, you know, and I talk extensively about in my book about the plan, looking on online job boards, you know, recruiters and networking, but especially having that foundation of reflection. So that it’s gonna be a workbook and a book to read, so you can actually make all of your notations as you go through. Super excited about it, and, can’t wait till it comes out.

Eric Deschamps [00:49:46]:
Oh, neither can we. I think given the number of people that, we have a big, community now Yes. Growing. And again, I I’m so glad that this conversation happened today. And I know our listeners, so many are gonna benefit from it. I think we’re we’re gonna be recommending Michelle’s book an awful lot.

Rob Dale [00:50:04]:
Ah. An

Eric Deschamps [00:50:04]:
awful lot. Yeah. Because again I didn’t

Michelle Schafer [00:50:06]:
even have to pay you guys to say that. Like, how

Eric Deschamps [00:50:08]:
amazing is that? Conversation afternoons. Yeah. But but thank you so much for this was so great.

Michelle Schafer [00:50:13]:
You’re welcome. Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Rob Dale [00:50:15]:
Thank thank you. This has been so great. So and I know many of you, you’re you’re really just you wanna connect with Michelle. You wanna be able to just let her know how much this has been, helpful for you and maybe ask some questions, maybe even hire her as a career coach for you.

Eric Deschamps [00:50:29]:
She’s in the Living Rich Lee Nation, by the way.

Rob Dale [00:50:31]:
She is also part of the Living Rich Lee Nation. So if you join the, the Facebook group, and you can find out all about the Facebook group at our website, livingrichley.me. You’re also gonna be able to find there the show notes for today’s episodes. And in that show notes will be all of Michelle’s contact information, so you can find that in there, so you’re able to reach out and connect to her as well. While you’re at the website, while you’re at livingrichly.me, you’re gonna find the link for the Facebook group. You’re also gonna find the link for the 15 day challenge, life giving challenge, life vision challenge. Boy, you can tell, like, it’s the end of the day. The life vision challenge, it’s free.

Eric Deschamps [00:51:08]:
Yeah.

Rob Dale [00:51:08]:
And it will help you figure out those things like what gives you energy, what depletes your energy. All of those things are part of that. You might wanna do the challenge

Eric Deschamps [00:51:18]:
and then connect with Michelle. I I think

Rob Dale [00:51:20]:
I think this would be great. So make sure you go there. Check all of that out. Again, thanks so much for being a part of, this episode and being on the journey with us. Now get out there and live your best life.

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