Mindful Masculinity – Unmasking the Live Action Hero

Mindful Masculinity – Unmasking the Live Action Hero

Rob Dale:
What I love about Action Heroes today is they can be wounded. They can acknowledge the fear. They can acknowledge the pain, the sadness, whatever. It doesn’t still define or keep them from doing what they know they need to do.

Eric Deschamps:
One of the responses is you guys are contributing to everything that is weak about masculinity, about men today. Vulnerabilities for women. I mean, those were some of the words used. That’s still very prevalent

Rob Dale:
in today’s society. And the warrior mindset is bring that shit on. Right. I’m ready to face it, and I’m not going down. And if I go down, I’m

Eric Deschamps:
getting back up. The aggression, the intimidation, the you have to be the strongest person in the room to have any value.

Rob Dale:
Hi, and welcome to the Living Rich Lee podcast. So excited that you are here with us today. Eric and I are gonna continue our conversation around mindful masculinity. Yeah. It has been a a few weeks. Of course, last, time we had, this topic was with Kelly Flanagan.

Eric Deschamps:
My god. And if people haven’t watched that episode, I am still, unpacking. I think I’ve watched it 3 times.

Rob Dale:
So good.

Eric Deschamps:
Definitely, if they if folks haven’t watched it, they need to go back.

Rob Dale:
They need to go back.

Eric Deschamps:
Episode 85, with with Kelly. There you

Rob Dale:
go, love.

Eric Deschamps:
You were a great

Rob Dale:
great show. But prior to that, we had started to unpack some of the different stereotypes that men you know, the male stereotypes, male archetypes, and we were looked at a couple of them already. Maybe let’s take a minute. Before we dive into today, what we’re gonna talk about, we talked about, first of all, the lone wolf.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. The lone wolf. So the ability to channel your self reliance, your independence, your resilience to stand out on your own because life is gonna require that of you, many times throughout your existence in terms of carving out your own existence. Problem is the lonely wolf or the lone wolf can become the lonely wolf. Yeah. Isolated alone, and that can be really probable.

Rob Dale:
And so then we went from there to the stoic. Oh, stoic. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
What? Talk about what the stoic? How to be stoic without getting stuck emotionally. And Yeah. Actually, since then, I’ve read a great book called how to think like a Roman emperor, which is all about Marcus Aurelius, a famous stoic and phenomenal, phenomenal book. Again, they never we we we translate the word stoic now to mean unemotional. The original stoics were not unemotional, but they used logic and thinking and a disciplined mind to manage the more negative emotions that sometimes get us into trouble.

Rob Dale:
I so what I love of what we’ve been doing with this series is we’re calling it mindful masculinity, not toxic masculinity.

Eric Deschamps:
We don’t want that.

Rob Dale:
Because no. Because we recognize that in all of these archetypes, I can’t say the word today, there are both good and bad. There are both, reasons and times to lean in Yeah. To the to it, and there are and there are challenges and dangers to be aware of. Yeah. And that’s where we’re gonna continue our theme today. Now I’m super excited about today. Me too.

Rob Dale:
I’m gonna be like the geek out

Eric Deschamps:
of the world.

Rob Dale:
We’re gonna

Eric Deschamps:
get we’re gonna have

Rob Dale:
to be like little kids. So we’re gonna be talking about it’s the the proper word that is used when we talk about this archetype is the warrior. Yeah. But we like the live action hero as kind of the real language around it. We’ll talk about why it’s called the Warrior and look at some of the different, where the the origination of this, of this type, is found, but we wanna start out just by geeking out a little bit and talk about live action heroes. Greatest live action hero, you growing up. Okay.

Eric Deschamps:
On the big screen, if we’re talking about action heroes in the eighties nineties, I think I geeked out on those films growing up. The battle between Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sylvester Stallone to wear the crown of the live action hero was was something else. Favorite Arnold Schwarzenegger movie for you?

Rob Dale:
I I think it’s gotta be, Terminator and and Terminator 2 Which one? Terminator 2 was really it was Great stuff. Yeah. I think that was probably one of the first times not the first time. I’ll be back. One of the first times where a sequel, outdid the original. Not the first time, but almost. It was one of the you know, you got Godfathered. The second godfather is certainly the godfather.

Rob Dale:
Some would argue Empire Strikes Back is the Star Wars movie. Right? Exactly.

Eric Deschamps:
And Terminator 2 would be the Terminator movie. For me, the the Arnold Schwarzenegger movie that stands out was much earlier than the Terminator series, long after Conan. We were talking about Conan the Barbarian and how that one, he made his cinematic really debut. That’s when he really became famous. He was just coming off, the mister universe scene, and he was pumped, pumped up, and he was jacked to, like, to no end, and he does these Conan movies. But it was later on he did the Commando movie. Do you

Rob Dale:
remember Commando?

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. It of all the ones he did, and I might be wrong and and maybe I’ve got my facts wrong, but my memory is that he had the best one liners one after another in that movie. And, again, just like invincible, bullets flying all around him, but never touched him. Right?

Rob Dale:
Well, I think

Eric Deschamps:
he got wounded once.

Rob Dale:
But I think I think for me, my favorite action hero Yep. Would have been again, this is we were talking again off air that we just enough years difference. For me, the real formative years. I was I was 10 years old when Star Wars came out. Yeah. Yeah. Came out in 1977, and I was 10 years old, and I remember being in awe of Han Solo. Right.

Rob Dale:
Looking at this this rebel, this this, you know, the the the kind of character he was was exactly as a 10 year old, that’s who I wanted to grow up and be. And I can remember that would be my my role playing, you know, in my, in my room or whatever would be. I would always be pretending I’m I’m Han Solo. Yeah. For me, definitely,

Eric Deschamps:
it was it was Luke Skywalker only because he’s the first Jedi you meet in that series of movies. And, you know, every little kid, after that wanted to watch a lightsaber. I’ve talked about my my, my my now favorite villain, would be Darth Vader. Yeah. Because they are likewise they’re just the best. If we go back to live action here outside of Star Wars, favorite, Sylvester Stallone movie? Ramble. Ramble?

Rob Dale:
Yeah. I I I Which one? Well, so it’d be a mixture. Well, Ram the first Ramble, I think, there was something about it. 1st Blood Yeah. I think was the best. You know, you could argue there’s a there’s a number of them for sure. I I you know, for you, it’s

Eric Deschamps:
it’s definitely a rock and cold and series.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. And and and same. Right? Like, you know, I think those are both, those characters were, again, come to life for certainly young boys.

Eric Deschamps:
I was 14 years old, and I remember that the theme music that the track, soundtrack for Rocky 3, and I I would use that to work out. Whenever I worked out my basement, my little jit my little weight

Rob Dale:
set Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. It was it was to that let shift. Let’s go to, let’s go to, like, superheroes. Alright? So I’m gonna put some pressure on you. Actually, Steve, what’s your favorite, Schwarzenegger movie?

Rob Dale:
True Lies.

Eric Deschamps:
True Lies. Okay. Oh, that’s a good one. Jamie Lee Curtis. Jamie Lee Curtis. Sounds like a lot of fun. And favorite Stallone movie?

Rob Dale:
Rambo.

Eric Deschamps:
Rambo. Definitely. Okay. Alright. Let’s go to, let’s go back to the, or or go to the superhero category now. And, for Steve, favorite superhero? Deadpool. Oh, good Paul. That’s a great one.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because he’s actually a mutant. Right? And he’s, he he he’s they were in, well, anyway, I’m not gonna Yeah. I We we could lose up a lot of time here.

Rob Dale:
This is living rich, so

Eric Deschamps:
you’re not For you, I’m gonna hold you to a higher standard. I want you to pick your favorite Marvel superhero and your favorite DC Comics superhero.

Rob Dale:
And I appreciate you’re holding me to a different standard. I am. You are the the geek master. Mhmm. You and your son You

Eric Deschamps:
should be my son.

Rob Dale:
You and your son, Sam, are I’ve I’ve sometimes I sit and listen to the 2 of you talk about Marvel or Star Wars, and and you’re getting into like, you guys know every detail of every the whole all the timelines Compared to

Eric Deschamps:
him on a padawan, he’s

Rob Dale:
a Jedi master. He is he is absolutely incredible with it. And so my my exposure’s a little bit different because I wasn’t really into it. It took me now Marvel didn’t really start to shine Yeah. Until we were adults. Right. And so I was less, you know, drawn to it. I I would say on the DC side, it would be Christian Bale’s Batman.

Eric Deschamps:
Oh, Batman. That’s great.

Rob Dale:
But it would be his Batman. Not any not just any Batman, but it would be very specific to him. The Dark Knight. The Dark Knight series. And the Dark Knight series, Heath Ledger’s Joker was actually one of I think one of the greatest characters, villain characters in in, in cinematic history. I think on the Marvel side, this is a I it’s a bit of a struggle for me. Maybe Thor? Thor? K.

Eric Deschamps:
Yep. Yeah.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. But I but I’m I’m I’m saying that he’s just very convinced. Yeah. Now I’m almost saying that as a question. I it was a question. Is that acceptable?

Eric Deschamps:
Like, like,

Rob Dale:
you know, because I think they were all I just I I enjoyed them and everything like that, but I I didn’t get into it where I would say that I that’s the guy for me.

Eric Deschamps:
Well, so I on the DC side, you and I are on the same page. For me, Batman, has always been one of my favorites on the DC side, and I’ll explain why in a second. When I go over to the Marvel side, actually, my favorite has always been, Captain America, right, for the longest time. And there’s a couple reasons for that. Both on the DC side and the Marvel side, both those characters are not superhuman beings with, it like, like, almost like, Thor is almost godlike. Yeah. He’s actually a god

Rob Dale:
according to the Like me.

Eric Deschamps:
Like you. Exactly. That’s exactly where my mind went. Okay. Yeah.

Rob Dale:
That’s all.

Eric Deschamps:
See, there was a question.

Rob Dale:
See how

Eric Deschamps:
I said that with a question on the end? Yeah. But, you know, you think of you think of Cap, Captain America and his character, I Can Do This All Day, constantly picking himself up from impossible situations, facing difficult odds. And, yes, he was strong and he was fast, but compared to a lot of his peers, he did not have the same level of power. It was his determination and grit. And on the DC side, Batman also didn’t have superpowers. Yes. He was all about training and gadgets and making the most of every situation. So they were both heroes, I think Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
I could relate to because they were more human. Now that’s in

Rob Dale:
America, of course Super soldier. Yeah. He was super soldier. And it’s interest. I, I’m I’m kinda as soon as you said it, what well, of course, how did I not guess that out of the gate? Your g is Captain America. Oh, come on. Don’t say that on the podcast. Captain America.

Rob Dale:
He like, you you My custom rapper. Eric is geeky enough that he wrapped his Jeep Gladiator in Captain America colors.

Eric Deschamps:
I did. I did. Now most people would not know it. I have to show them that there’s a shield, a very kind of discreet shield on the hood of the Jeep, but, absolutely. But the the reality is, like, as as kids growing up, young boys growing up, we were deeply influenced by these images on the big screen. And and when we think of again, for us, it was live action heroes, but in previous civilizations, like 100 and even 1000 of years ago, the live action hero for them was the warrior.

Rob Dale:
Well and and and before we even go there Yep. By just to to to go back to the the live action hero in movies and in books

Eric Deschamps:
and Oh, yeah. A couple of recent from recent.

Rob Dale:
But but but certainly in the seventies, eighties, nineties, they were all men. Right.

Eric Deschamps:
Right.

Rob Dale:
Right? Almost. There might I I I could probably be challenged that there was there was a a female or 2 character.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Rob Dale:
But in almost all of the seventies eighties, the the live act and why it becomes now, something that we wrestle with as men is because all we saw on the screen, all we read in the books we read during that generation were these incredibly strong

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Rob Dale:
Masculine all of all of the things we define as masculine were shown in these action heroes.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. And and think of even a couple of great movies that, a lot of folks can will probably likely remember that that actually depicted, times long before our present time. Think of, for example, Braveheart and the Liberation of Scotland. And I know that it’s not a true story. It’s based on true events, but very loosely, it’s a it’s a dramatization, of course. And the other one will be gladiator. Right? Where, again, you’ve got 2 warriors that are highly esteemed, one, because he’s fighting to liberate his people, one, who’s, fighting to fight find his freedom and take out an evil 2 emperor.

Rob Dale:
2 movies that are in my top five favorite all time movies I go back and watch all the time. As Freedom. As would most men Yeah. Are, you know, in our age bracket, they would list those 2 movies and

Eric Deschamps:
What you’re doing, life echoes in eternity. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there’s so many great lines that we could but the the the I think the again, go back to the whether it’s the ancient samurai

Rob Dale:
Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
Or, other civilizations where, again, the hero or the hero was the warrior, the one able to defend, protect, fight the the strength, the prowess of that. And we admire these heroes. I mean, curious, David, what do we admire about them?

Rob Dale:
My tattoos, my entire left arm of tattoos are warriors. Wow. That’s that’s my theme. Right? You’ve got the knights of the templar. You’ve got the the samurai. You’ve got the the indigenous, Geronimo warrior. Right? You’ve that that was my whole thing when I had this theme done on my arm was around

Eric Deschamps:
the Warriors. You’re on your right arm, it’s lilies and daisies.

Rob Dale:
No. But there’s nothing wrong with it.

Eric Deschamps:
No. There’s not. I was just trying to poke fun at

Rob Dale:
you here.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Yeah. But but when we think about it, if we just back up for a second and say, what is it about these characters? I mean, there’s some obvious things, but some not so obvious. What are some of the things that we admire about them? Like, when you think of those live action heroes as you sat there watching that growing up, it is although it’s entertainment, we’re learning about what society values and what is popular and what is famous. I mean, there’s a a great clip online. I think you can look it up, on YouTube, and it’s about, men don’t or was it cool guys don’t look at explosions or something of that nature? It’s a whole series. It’s a song and all these explosions going off in the background and the the the hero’s just walking away, doesn’t even flinch, doesn’t even look backwards. Right? But we’re we’re learning about values as we take in this information, and and yet this archetype, like I said, has been there from

Rob Dale:
And I know for me why they were so impressionable in those days, and even to this day, why I will, gravitate towards that warrior type movie, was because, again, my my my childhood was so kind of, chaotic

Eric Deschamps:
Right.

Rob Dale:
And there was so much that was happening and so much unhealthiness and and brokenness and all of this is I would look at these action heroes that nothing kept them down, nothing hurt them. They were they they were they were impenetrable. Right? Like, they everything about them, they demonstrated strength and the the the, the confidence and everything that I was lacking, I saw in them and I I idolized it.

Eric Deschamps:
Right. And I well, I I think, like, again, you most kids when you ask them who their idols were, you know, you might have had a phase in our lives where you said my dad or this or that, but most of the time, we go to these Yeah. I never heard of that. Largest I I know for you, your story is very, very different. But it it’s again, we we we were raised around these, these these archetypes or these models that are just but, I mean, I guess, even Superman’s got his Kryptonite, but let’s face it. Like, his one weakness and and and the rest of life, he’s in he’s in, like, undefeatable.

Rob Dale:
Well, that’s and and, you know, you talk about even the people we do, we in real life that we idolize. I know for me, right, I I can remember at 13, when we would, you know, my my stepdad would have, you know, parties at the house and all these bikers would be over, and you’d have all these guys from some of the outlaw clubs and everything like this. And there was a guy from one of the outlaw clubs. His name was mountain man. And he was probably I I don’t know how tall he really was, probably 6 5 or something like that, but he looked like he was 10 feet tall to me as a 13 year old

Eric Deschamps:
Yep.

Rob Dale:
And just this strong you know, this guy that just was just incredible. And I remember being you know, I could quickly tell a story of being at there was a camp. Camp Fortune used to have these sleds. I think they brought them back, but at the time and me and my stepbrother were goofing around. You’re talking about those they Those those cement

Eric Deschamps:
Oh my god. That was dangerous. Yeah. Is your is your knee stuck out or your elbow?

Rob Dale:
So we’re goofing around or ramming into each other. So sure enough, we get to the bottom, and the the the guy at the bottom kicks us off. And we go back to where some of the bikers are sitting around and and, you know, our step my stepdad said, why are you guys what happened? We got kicked off. We’re not allowed to go back. Mountain man stands up, walks us back over to the guy, and just looks at him and says, you’re not kicking these guys off, are you? And the guy just cowered and, you know, no, sir. No, sir. You kids can come back on, and we’re like, and I remember from that moment, it was like, all I ever wanna be is mountain man.

Eric Deschamps:
Right. And and you think of, again, the the the things that we admire, they they have a dark side. Right? Yes. They do. The aggression, the intimidation, the you have to be the strongest person in the room to have any value. There’s there’s all these mixed messages being sent in all of that, that downplays things like empathy, downplays, superpowers like vulnerability, emotional intelligence, the ability to connect, the ability to communicate, the ability to emote

Rob Dale:
Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
To I mean, think of most superheroes not very emotional. Right? Like, live action heroes. Like, I remember the thing about Arnold that I that was, like, legendary for him is, like, his face was deadpan

Rob Dale:
the whole time. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Like, he you didn’t really see him emote much. And and so I think what the messages that sends, to men is that in order to be strong, in order to provide, in order to protect your family and protect what you’ve you have and you’ve built, you have to be a certain way.

Rob Dale:
And I think it’s a generational thing, and I wanna about some of the advantages of this of this, archetype, in a moment. I wanna talk about why we why we wanna lean into them. But I you know, just to that point, I the it’s shifted. And we see today we certainly see with 1, we see a lot more female actions. Strong leads. It’s so great

Eric Deschamps:
to see that. Right?

Rob Dale:
Yeah. Warrior type females. Yep. But we also see now the superheroes, certainly in Marvel, in in even in in DC and More flawed than they used to be demonstrated. Flawed. And, of course, probably the biggest show on television, as of this recording is on, you know, in Amazon Prime, superheroes where, like, they’re the boys. Oh my god. Right? Like like

Eric Deschamps:
Have you seen that show? Yeah. Always. It’s disturbing.

Rob Dale:
Like, you need therapy after every session. Talk about flawed superheroes. Right?

Eric Deschamps:
Like Well, they’re they’re actually they’re actually superheroes, but they’re actually the villain.

Rob Dale:
They’re yeah. Right. Exactly. And that’s and that’s the but the point is is that That’s shifted. I I think it’s shifted where people, certainly younger people today, wouldn’t relate to, the view of the action hero as we saw it. Right. Right. To the same degree.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. And, you know, people argue whether that’s good or bad. I think it’s good, to be able to but let’s talk about some of the how does leaning into the live action hero benefit us as men, professionally and personally? What are some of the advantages of of having that mindset?

Eric Deschamps:
Well, certainly, like, when you think of, live action heroes, we often think of physical prowess and strength. Yeah. We think of, I mean, again, I go back to the 2 most influential, action heroes. You think of, Schwarzenegger and and, Stallone back in those years and, how ripped they were. I mean, it was actually amazing to watch Stallone’s transformation over about a 10, 15 year period. He went, like, every movie, he was more ripped, more ripped, more ripped, more jacked. And so, certainly, there’s always this notion of physical strength. I think there’s a lot of pressure still, on young men, and men in general to look a certain way and be a certain way, but there is this notion of their mental strength.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. To me, like, the the ability to face off with impossible odds. Again, I go back to the Captain America model. I could do this all day, and this is where he’s before his transformation, before he becomes a super soldier, he’s this scrawny little kid right from New York’s like, Brooklyn.

Rob Dale:
True.

Eric Deschamps:
And, he’s one of the opening scenes, he’s getting the snot kicked out of him by this big day. And he just keeps getting up. He just keeps getting up. And so to me, like, when we talk about channeling the warrior, channeling the the live action hero is that there’s great strength in the ability to find the courage to keep getting up. Right? To keep, I love, there’s a saying, and I’m not gonna do it justice, but, courage is sometimes a soft voice at the end of the day that’s not quite gone the way you wanted, and it’s a soft whisper that says, I’m gonna try again tomorrow. Yeah. That that’s courage. Right? So to me, I think that that that that, mental fortitude and resilience that how often are we gonna face off with difficult shit in our lives and the ability to tap into, I can do this.

Eric Deschamps:
I’ve been here before. We talked about it so much on the show in in other as in, in other, episodes, but I think that’s a really Yeah. I think that strength.

Rob Dale:
And I think absolutely. And I think the tenacity that comes along with that. Right? The the willingness to say, and and because we see this today, in so many cases, people fall into that victim mindset Yeah. And they give up, too soon. They give up as soon as the first storm hits or the first challenge hits. The warrior mindset is bring that shit on. Right. I’m ready to face it, and I’m not going down.

Rob Dale:
And if I go down, I’m getting back up, and it’s that constant that that tenacity to to push through until victory comes.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. And that’s not with, an absence of fear. No. Right? Again, I think a lot of folks, when hard stuff lands on their doorstep, to your point, the victim mindset starts to show up. And one of the true, most significant signs, obvious signs of the victim mindset is a lot of complaining. You just start to complain. So rather than, channeling, right, that courage and, again, courage is, still my favorite definition is courage is fear walking. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
Courage is what John Wayne said is being afraid but getting in the saddle anyway. Right? Like, it’s it’s not the absence of fear. And I think sometimes in older versions of the live action hero, the hero is almost seen as having zero fear, no emotion. Right? Like, I’m I’m impervious to all that. I’m above all that, and I think that sent a message to men, that we, it’s it’s bad to like, somehow you’re deficient as a man if you feel fear or you feel intimidation or you feel scared, you feel vulnerable. I think these are normal human emotions. Even the stoics would say, so Seneca, who was one of their greatest philosophers, right, who helped spread the, and start the stoic philosophy, instead of one at one time, he’s at at sea on a ship and a bad storm comes along. And and and instead of channeling sort of like, no.

Eric Deschamps:
I’m gonna be okay. And, no, he got so scared he jumped out of the boat and almost lost his life when he would have been much safer staying in the boat. So it’s it’s not a perfect courage that we’re talking about here, but the ability to tap into a measure of strength that in that moment can almost feel like it’s it’s supernatural, like it’s beyond you. Right? Yeah. And so where it feels like you’re moving into this something, but you gotta you gotta channel, the strength and channel

Rob Dale:
your courage. I think it’s, you know, we because we often talk about with this with this, mindset or, you know, with the the live action hero. It’s the the guy who basically, you know, he’s he gets his leg cut off, and he’s, oh, it’s just a flesh wound. Right? And kinda brushes it off.

Eric Deschamps:
And I’m not going into a cowboy genre. I’m going into Monty Python. I’m not going into a bar there. Python. Know. But

Rob Dale:
but the notion or you see you see the the the sports player, you know, the hockey player

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Who, you

Rob Dale:
know, he he breaks a bone and he just, you know, they throw a little bit of tape on it. He gets back out and

Eric Deschamps:
Right.

Rob Dale:
It’s okay to pause and and feel I think what I love about action heroes today is they can be wounded. They can acknowledge the fear. They can acknowledge the pain, the sadness, whatever. It doesn’t still define or keep them from doing what they know they need to do.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. And I I love you you raised this several shows back when we started to talk about that, the the shift that we’re seeing even on the big screen about how heroes are depicted Yeah. That I think we’re getting. It’s still it’s still Hollywood. It’s still meant to sell movies, right, sell tickets and, and streaming services and the like. But, we’re getting a bit more representation of the the the a a a broader human experience than what we would have, in the early years. And and I think, again, anything that that that that, for causes you to believe that vulnerability somehow is a weakness, that fear somehow makes you deficient, that, feeling, weak at times and not at your best, that somehow that makes you, right, less than, I think those are the things we’re trying to unearth to say, no. Those are part of a man’s experience as well.

Eric Deschamps:
It the the the real hero to me is the the the man who’s able to acknowledge and at first just get in touch with what’s going on under the hood, be able to connect with it, acknowledge it, and in spite of that, then channel something greater

Rob Dale:
to

Eric Deschamps:
the equation.

Rob Dale:
What was, what and maybe help me out here if you remember this, when Kelly Flanagan was on, talking about Shane, but he talked about the notion of real courage, and he talked about the the I I I if I’m trying to remember how he quoted it, if you recall, but the idea of it’s it’s not looking outward. It’s it’s face facing the thing out.

Eric Deschamps:
He talked about I think if I remember calling what you you you’re referring to, he said, I used to think a real man Yes. Was someone who wasn’t afraid of what’s around him. He says, now I think a real man is someone who’s not afraid of anything with within him.

Rob Dale:
Right? So That resonates with me around this notion. But let’s talk we we’ve been talking about courage. Maybe give me an example or share of a time where you had to step out and and courageously make a decision or do something that and I know there’s many, but give me maybe share with our listeners an example of of a time when you had to do that.

Eric Deschamps:
Well, probably when I was feeling, one of the most vulnerable places of my life was, back in 2011 when I was, my marriage had fallen apart, and, my family was falling apart. My career had fallen apart. There I had a number of things all falling apart, and it was a really, really hard period in my life. Felt very vulnerable, very afraid. There was a lot of, it was I was probably borderline depressed, if not right over the line depressed at the time. But it was through that those months of wrestling with all of that, people were telling me, Eric, just go get a job. You know, your young kids need some stability, especially as you navigate all this, and yet there was something deep inside of me that was saying, I I mean, I did the responsible thing. I remember going to a bunch of interviews, dragging myself there, but knowing I needed to find a job.

Eric Deschamps:
It’s the first time in my life that I had been the the one of the first times that I was an employee somewhere, and it really didn’t turn out so well. So that’s why I’ve stuck to entrepreneurship. But I had lost that job, and, I went interviewed with about 3 different organizations, and all 3 of them wanted to hire me. And I remember in the conversation, part of me coming alive, that this was really resonating, but that what I was awakening to is I didn’t wanna work for these leaders and these businesses, but I knew I could help them.

Rob Dale:
Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
And that became the, really the context through which my first coaching company was launched called Breakthrough Coach. And most of the people in my life, including family, called me crazy. They said, go get a stable job. Yeah. What are you doing? Starting, starting at your own business. Right? You’ve never done this before, and I had my own doubts, I mean, I, that I wrestled with, but that took a tremendous amount of courage at the time, but it was definitely fear walking. This wasn’t like the, emotionless, right, like, I got this. It was one day at a time, sometimes one moment at a time.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. I know for me, it would have been the moment when I made the decision to leave the church world. And and, you know, I I don’t, so I I will never try to be the hero of that story. I did a lot of stupid bad things, but I was not somebody I when I made the decision to end my marriage, when I made the decision to resign from the church, no one was putting that pressure on me. There I could’ve continued to skate in the way and the behavior that I was in for probably years. I had been doing that for years, and I probably could’ve continued to do it, but I knew, and I remember having the the belief of I can’t keep doing this with integrity. I have I’ve lost my integrity in in in being in this pulpit, and I need to step away from that. And the courage it took to basically say I have to be true here, even though I had no I literally thought I had no options.

Rob Dale:
I had no idea of what I was gonna do. And when you and I first connected well, reconnected, we already knew each other after I had already made that decision or right around. I think I come came to you the week that I said, hey, Eric. I’m about to do this on Sunday. Yeah. You know, do you know anybody that’s hiring because I need a job? And that’s when I started, you know, when you asked me to, you know, have you ever thought about coaching and and that whole journey of us doing this together. But to be able to, in that moment, say, no. I am going to I’m gonna that was probably one of the most courageous moments of my life, because of the decision I made in that moment.

Rob Dale:
Right.

Eric Deschamps:
Right. I just think we talk ourselves out of greatness all the time. I think, there’s a lot of men even listening to the show right now, if they manage to if they manage to survive us geeking out there at the beginning, but I I can guarantee a bunch of them were like, hey. My favorite action hero was this guy. But I think we talk ourselves out of greatness all the time. We talk ourselves that we we, I think there’s a lot of men that look, say, I don’t look the part. Right? And when I say look the part, they’re comparing themselves to this persona that’s been portrayed in movie after movie and and, right, that and and this goes, like, goes back thousands of years. Right? Like, because of the warrior archetype’s been around a long time.

Eric Deschamps:
Even Carl Jung and his archetypes of the human personality, the warrior is one of them. Right? We’re relating it specifically to the archetype around men, specifically around, the live action hero, but we talk ourselves out of greatness. And, I think every man has greatness in him. I think every person has greatness within them. We just it we we we we just doubt ourselves so much. So it’s the ability to to understand that in spite of weakness, in spite of fear, in spite of doubts, in spite of limitations, in spite that we not might not look the part, that there there is greatness in us that is ready to be channeled.

Rob Dale:
One of the other, kinda characteristics of the live action hero is discipline. Mhmm. There’s a

Eric Deschamps:
there’s a word.

Rob Dale:
And and so let’s talk about discipline as an advantage, as as as one of the you know, in one way that you can lean into the live action hero is to embrace the discipline that they demonstrated. What what what comes to mind for you

Eric Deschamps:
when you think comes to mind me to for me right away is all the Rocky movies, and there was always that training montage Yes. Partway through the movie where you see both athletes training. Right? Whether it was, Rocky and Apollo Creed or it was, Rocky and the Russian dude, I’m gonna forget his name, and I can’t believe I’m forgetting his name. Eagle. No. It was Dolph Lundgren, the lady after it. But Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
He was called his name was something else to me, and I feel terrible. I can’t remember. But

Rob Dale:
I can’t believe Steve doesn’t know.

Eric Deschamps:
No. He got nothing. Yeah. He got nothing. Yeah.

Rob Dale:
Is it? Hey. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
Seat for the win. Oh my god. More than a producer, folks. Like alright. Producer plus here. But the those fighting montages, and you watch the discipline of these athletes, right, to prepare for the fight. And I think the word discipline is a word that doesn’t show up enough in our vocabulary anymore. A lot of folks we we use the language even in the world of business.

Eric Deschamps:
There are a lot of wantrepreneurs Right. Who want to build their own business, want to strike out and follow their dream, but that dream better be followed with a lot of determination and discipline to turn it into reality Yeah. Because there will be hardship that comes, and it does require training and effort over time.

Rob Dale:
One of the one of the greatest scenes, in the Christian Bale Batman series is him being where Oh my god. Right?

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Rob Dale:
When he’s trying to get out of the of the, whatever that was called. Hit. Yeah. But and he’s and the determination to climb and to get out and all the all the other

Eric Deschamps:
Well, even when he’s so that was in, the movie with, with Bane Bane, but the movie before that, like, the first one where he’s being trained by the League of Shadows Yes. On how to even become, the Batman. Right? And and, again, the the the strict discipline. Now that that’s not the I mean, unless you’re training as an athlete or whatever, that discipline’s gonna look different. But training to be a great father, training to be a great, a husband or or mate. Right? Train to be a great leader. Like, the the discipline required to do that. I think it’s, again, for a lot of people, the art of of follow through, the art of day to day repetition of doing the small things over time.

Eric Deschamps:
I think we’re in a satisfy me now culture. We’re in a microwave culture. We can’t even stand in front of the microwave. We think it takes too long.

Rob Dale:
Right.

Eric Deschamps:
Everything we think is instant and easy, and it usually isn’t.

Rob Dale:
Ben Bergeron, who was a guest on our podcast and

Eric Deschamps:
and written way back.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. Has written a number of books, but his book Chasing Excellence, and he and here’s a guy who coached, the the winners, the champions of the CrossFit games, both men and women, one of the only coaches to coach both, in the same year, the male and female athlete, top athlete. And he talks about these the discipline that’s required to get to that level where 400,000 people compete, at the start of the CrossFit games, and you get down to in August at the championships, you’re down to the top 20 male and the top 20 female.

Eric Deschamps:
Wow.

Rob Dale:
Like, it’s incredible to think of that. And he talks about it’s all at that point mindset Yep. Who wants it best. The poor. Well, and who and and by who wants it best, it’s focusing and he talks, you know, focusing on the things that are within my control and being disciplined to not get distracted by the things outside of that.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Well, usually, the only difference between the winner and the loser is the winner just hung in longer. Yep. Right? It took it took that extra discipline, that extra effort, that extra determination, and, I think discipline is something that any any person can benefit from. How do I become more disciplined in my approach here?

Rob Dale:
So there are some lots of advantages. Yeah. Let’s talk a little bit about some of the challenges, some of the concerns. What would be at the top of that?

Eric Deschamps:
Top of my list is the emotional suppression. I think, again, the the the the characterization of, the the hero and the warrior, being this emotionless, again, I’m gonna use the modern word stoic because the ancient word stoic would not be unemotional. It was more about emotional mastery. But in our society, when we refer to someone being stoic in our day and age, we’re usually saying they’re kinda they’re kinda flat emotionally. Right? Like, they don’t they don’t have much emotional range. And I think, again, a lot of men struggle. We’ve been told it’s not okay. Think of most action movies, and the plot is usually driven around rage and revenge.

Eric Deschamps:
Yep. Like, how many action movies the guy might even be an average dude, usually former military, though. Almost always former military. Former military. And, like, his family gets killed or his dog like, take the John Wick. John Wick. Right? They killed his dog for Christ’s sake. Right? And he goes on a killing rampage.

Eric Deschamps:
Like, and and and that’s celebrated. The rage and revenge is celebrated, and and and prized, and yet for men, it’s like other emotions are are are not allowed. Right? What was it that, again, Kelly said on the show when he was with us last, and I can’t wait to have him back, but he said it’s almost like men are only allowed about half of the human experience, and the rest we have to repress. Well, when you when you don’t let emotions flow through you, when you don’t have access or range on that front, you you truly we’ve said it before. It’s like you’re living in black and white versus color, and it’s extremely unhealthy to repress all that emotion. What is it you he also said is you can’t push stuff away. You can only push it down.

Rob Dale:
Right.

Eric Deschamps:
Well, why are we seeing an increase of heart disease among men? Why are we seeing rising rates of depression, clinical depression, and and and rising rates of suicide? Well, loneliness is a big part of that. But another big part of it is I think men have not known what to do with all the the the this this stuff going on under the hood. Yeah. And they have not felt like it’s okay, to be themselves. And, let’s go back

Rob Dale:
to the first show we

Eric Deschamps:
did on this series. And what was one of the responses is you guys are contributing to everything that is weak about masculinity, about men today. Vulnerabilities for women. I mean, those were some of the words used. That’s still very prevalent in today’s society. And because

Rob Dale:
I mean, you look, if you you know, again, all the classic heroes, the live action heroes, they’re almost all are alone. Right? Are loneliness. Yeah. They’re in a relationship that basically falls apart because they refuse to, right, I’ve gotta go save the world, and I don’t right? Like, they in almost all of these cases, their ability to connect with others Yeah. Is is so limited. I I kinda chuckle because we see, you know, people kinda started raising their hands even with with with the Marvel movies Yeah. For example. And it’s like, and so they they finally put this into the storyline, but it’s like, you know, like every time you battle some villain, you’re destroying cities.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Right? Like like like

Rob Dale:
how is not a 1,000 civilians being killed every time you’re

Eric Deschamps:
It’s not okay. Right? It’s basically like 911 every time you gotta do something. Right?

Rob Dale:
Right? And but for them, again, because the live action, we’ll be like, well, that’s just part of the price that we pay. Right? You know, it’s the price they paid, for your behavior.

Eric Deschamps:
I know when we talked about the former archetypes, I I really resonated with the lone wolf. You let resonated more with the stoic. And, as I we were preparing for this show, I kinda said, like, what was another formative character, and this was not from the big screen. It wasn’t from comic books. It wasn’t from, the world of sci fi. It was actually from our previous world from The Good Book. And one of of the characters that probably had the deepest influence over me from my mid teens to my early thirties. Probably the character that I above I I, admired the most, the stories.

Eric Deschamps:
He was actually upheld as the king against of which all other kings were measured, in the Old Testament, and that was that was David. Yeah. And, and again, for non religious folks, King David was a kid that came. If you know the story of David and Goliath, he’s the young shepherd boy who, with a sling and a stone, took out, an enemy, combatant that would have been about 10 feet tall. He was described as being almost like a giant and, and takes him down with a spear with a with a sling and a stone, and he he would become a very famous hero in his in in in at the time, in Israel, among his people, and eventually would be crowned king. And he made a lot of mistakes, but what was amazing about him is he demonstrated both the warrior archetype, but he was also, he was also a poet. Mhmm. And he was, he wrote songs, and he had this this expressive side to him, that I always really resonated with.

Eric Deschamps:
Now I wish I would have idolized Solomon a bit more, because I could have learned some I wish I would have known more about emotional self regulation, as a younger kid. I had a lot of anger, and, and that followed me into my adult years.

Rob Dale:
But you’re right, David. A lot of his, in in the poems that he wrote, they’re they’re filling with emotion. Yeah. And they’re filled with with, like like and and the wide range. I mean, there was it was there was some rage in some of his poems. Yeah. And and the desire for revenge in some of them. Right? But there was also the the, humility and brokenness and the vulnerability and all of those things were composed.

Rob Dale:
I think it’s a great example of of someone who he was the the the wounded warrior, the the the the the the the the classic action, you know, hero, but we’ve also had flaws.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. There’s a saying that I read, recently that, repression leads to depression. Right? When we push what is natural and and I get that for a lot of men, they’ve not had that was a big influence for me. So for me, emoting, tapping into my emotions, the ability to shed a tear when that’s appropriate, the ability to now I I I struggled with managing it all, and it’s only in more recent years I’ve learned better tools for doing that, through mindset work and a more disciplined mind. But I think a disciplined mind with a heart that is open, you begin to experience life in a much more full measure. But that’s not always what’s demonstrated in the Warrior and live action here.

Rob Dale:
What are some of the other challenge? Because I think I I love that emotional suppression. I think there’s the isolation or some challenges. I I you know, you mentioned again about rage. I think, you know, certainly aggression Huge. Is a huge, one of the challenges that when somebody is in that environment, you you don’t know how to step out of it. Right? It’s to be able I I I used to share the story of I would be work when I was doing bikers church, and I would be at a at a, you know, a biker event, and you’re around, Hells Angels and Outlaws and different bike clubs. And and and, you know, and you’ve gotta be on your guard even as a as a pastor, and they, you know, called me Rev at the time in those in that situation. You had to be on your you had to be strong and tough because they looked for weakness.

Rob Dale:
Right? Yeah. You talk tough back to them. You push back if somebody challenged. That’s all they respected. That’s what they respected. Yeah. And then I would be doing that on a Saturday at some kind of a bike event, and then the Sunday, I would be at the regular church sitting there listening to us, you know, 80 year old lady, a grandmother talking about her, you know, knitting or something like that and being able to make that. It was there were time it was incredibly hard not to be just, like What? Make that shift, right, to to to be too sensitive.

Rob Dale:
What’s been your experience with with

Eric Deschamps:
Well, I think, again, there is something about the culture that idolizes that toughness, that emotional detachment, right, that somehow the the the that that is to be prized and that that is what a hero looks like and feels like. And yet I think if you talk to most women about their significant other and if they would say, well, he’s emotionally detached. He he can’t connect. He struggles to show emotion, and that’s a big like, part of why we’re having problems. I think, again, what we idolize and what we want in real life is often so disconnected.

Rob Dale:
It’s a mixed message. Right? Yeah. Kelly Flanagan talked about this when he said, you know, you were just sharing about that, about, you know, how the women received that. The message, it’s a mixed message around, again, what we idolize and what we want. It’s like, oh, wait a minute. No. No. I want somebody who’s present, all of this stuff.

Rob Dale:
And I do think there’s again, this is where we’re not trashing any of these models. I am a big believer that as the, as as as the man in this house, as the father, as the husband, I am the protector. You come into this house, you break into this house, and I will protect with my life, Wendy. Yeah. I will absolutely I I’ll go down swinging, but I am not gonna cower.

Eric Deschamps:
Brother, if you and I are ever in the woods and we encounter a bear

Rob Dale:
I’m gonna go faster than you. Kick you in

Eric Deschamps:
the ankles. I’m gonna I’m gonna Right. Bring a hammer on your knee? No.

Rob Dale:
I have to outrun the bear. I just have to outrun you. And I am so confident that I’ll outrun you. And and if we we’ll just bring Steve along.

Eric Deschamps:
Steve, it was nice knowing you. Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Dale:
We’ll video it,

Eric Deschamps:
Steve. Yeah. No.

Rob Dale:
But, you know, like so I I think they’re yes. Embrace that. I wanna be the strong, protector of my home. I wanna be that strong protector for my children. Yeah. But I also wanna be emotionally connected.

Eric Deschamps:
Right. It’s it’s, again, it’s understanding the full range. And, again, I think what we’re trying to do in these conversations, and we’re no experts at this, but we have been men for a long time, so we can relate to the challenges and to the mixed messages we’ve received over time. And, again, we’re just inviting folks to a conversation to consider some of these things and how they might how they might channel the strengths of these archetypes. It’s almost like we’re trying to redeem or reclaim the better parts of these and and maybe shine a light on where they get us into trouble. So we’re not saying rejected altogether. We’re not trying to be overly woke. We’re not trying to, follow any trends.

Eric Deschamps:
We’re just trying to say, what is it? What does it mean to be a real man in today’s culture? And these archetypes actually have a lot to teach us, but it’s like anything over time. There’s truth and then there’s fable. Yeah. There’s what what the story really was and what it’s become over time. Right? I I remember, an Anglican friend of mine, this back in my church days, he was a good friend of mine. He told me, I’m a former Catholic when I was young. I grew up Roman Catholic. And part of the Protestant thing, right, is they rebelled against the whole, worship of Mary.

Eric Deschamps:
And, and and he explained to me. He said, do you know you understand that when you go back to the original stuff around that, it was less about worshiping Mary. It was just honoring her for being a teenage girl, having to I’m pregnant, and god did it. Right? Like, the story is kinda crazy, and the courage it took for her to do that and then stand by her son throughout his lifetime and watch him die. So there’s there’s the truth. Now, again, that’s what if you believe that’s actually true. But whether it’s a true story or it’s a story that’s made up, there’s the initial truth of it. And then there’s there’s the fable or the the the extra cannon that gets added over time, and in that cannon can be a real mixed bag.

Rob Dale:
We’ve got about 3 minutes, or 5 minutes. Yeah. Uh-huh. 33 to 4 minutes

Eric Deschamps:
at max.

Rob Dale:
So Yeah. So let’s let we we we’ve been leaning so much into mindful masculinity. Yeah. So how does, 1, somebody who embraces the live action hero lean into mindful masculinity? What what would be 1 or 2 things that you would say are are kinda starting points for that?

Eric Deschamps:
I think it’s again, mindfulness is about paying attention to what you’re doing while you’re doing it. So rather than just living according to this program and these societal expectations and following them along blindly, it’s hold them up. Like, hold them up in front of you and say, is this how I wanna live my life? Do I want to only experience half the human experience Yeah. Because Hollywood has told me that so, or, you know, the these ancient stories have told me at least to look a certain way. Behind the story of the hero on the screen, there’s vulnerability, there’s pain, there’s fear, there’s all of it. There’s also great joy, the ability to shed a tear when it’s appropriate to feel, to connect with other people beyond an intellectual level but at a heart level. So my advice is is explore. Be open to just hold it up and look at it and say, what do I want to be as a man? How do I wanna show up as opposed to I feel this pressure to conform?

Rob Dale:
I love that. It’s not an an either or. This is another one of those bold bands. Right? That you can be the strong warrior and also the sensitive, caring man, to the people around you. We talk to so many business leaders and organizational leaders where that’s one of their biggest challenges. I have to have I have to demonstrate to my team I have it all together that I can I’m leading the charge. Well, sometimes leading the charge is being the first I I go first to say I am struggling and to be open and vulnerable and to to really kind of where where that’s going. So, we’re gonna keep we’re gonna continue in to talk about that.

Rob Dale:
What’s next on mindful on the on this whole series, mindful message?

Eric Deschamps:
We’ve got some great guests that are gonna be coming on, on, in future episodes. We do wanna look. There’s a couple of our other archetypes we’re going to explore, so we invite you to tune in. Again, our goal is to hold these up, so that you can, readily recognize the value of them and how important it is to be able to channel or or lean into those positive characteristics and also avoid perhaps, more and more some of the dark sides and the negative, consequences of embracing those.

Rob Dale:
I can’t wait. I I just absolutely love that we’re doing this series. I I love that we got

Eric Deschamps:
to talk about movies and superheroes on the show.

Rob Dale:
It it was great how we can tease that in.

Eric Deschamps:
And and to know that Steve’s favorite action movie, Schwarzenegger movie? True Lies. True Lies. You heard it here, bro.

Rob Dale:
I might have You heard it here first, folks. I might have to watch that one this weekend.

Eric Deschamps:
There you go.

Rob Dale:
Point. Hey, listen. Thank you so much for tuning in. Wanna encourage you to take some time to to leave a comment. Why don’t you share with us who your favorite superhero was, and why? But share some, some comments in there. Like this. Maybe share it with a few people you think it will resonate with. Wanna encourage you to go to our website, living richly dot me.

Rob Dale:
All kinds of great resources, found there. Most importantly, I think is the link to our 15 day life vision challenge, an absolutely free course that you can take to help you figure out what really truly matters to you. I I my favorite part of it is having your own, manifesto for your personal life. You can do all of that. The the the information, everything can be found there, as well as a link to our our private Facebook group that is made up of, well, now probably at this time of this, 7, 800 people, who are all taking this journey together. So I wanna encourage you to check out all of that information. You can find it again, living richly dot me. Thank you so much for taking a part, to listen in, to watch in on this episode.

Rob Dale:
Can’t wait for what we have in store next week. And until then, get out there and live your best life.

.