Mastering Difficult Conversations – How to Create Healthy Relationships

Mastering Difficult Conversations – How to Create Healthy Relationships

Eric Deschamps:
It is better for us to embrace short term discomfort, than end up with long term dysfunction.

Kate Beere:
As humans, we tend to gravitate so much to, but what if this happens and what if this goes wrong with

Eric Deschamps:
this?

Kate Beere:
But what if it goes right? And so

Eric Deschamps:
when you get insight to what was going on for your person or your partner or your boss or whatever, you get their perspective, their side, how they’re feeling. You’re like, oh, I didn’t see it that way.

Rob Dale:
Don’t interpret. Don’t change the language of difficult conversations and put argument or conflict. Right? Because that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about difficult conversations. Hey. Welcome to the Living Rich Lee podcast. We’re so glad that you’ve tuned in again this week. We’ve been having some incredible conversations over the last number of episodes.

Rob Dale:
And, again, we’re so appreciative of everybody who’s a part of the Living Rich Lee nation. Today, we’re gonna actually double down on conversations, and we’re gonna talk about how to have difficult conversations, to master difficult conversations, and why that’s important and why it’s critical.

Wendy Dodds:
It’s a light topic.

New Host:
Right. It’s gonna be these ones.

Kate Beere:
And it’s super lights.

Eric Deschamps:
And it

New Host:
and it’s interesting. You and I for sure, and we were certainly I would certainly let everybody know in case you’re not aware, all 4 of us are available, anyone to come and speak at your event, if you’re part of a a corporation company, any one of us could come and do presentation. Probably the number one, talk that I am asked to present on is this, is how to have difficult conversations. It’s something such great feedback on those those Yeah. It is something that people really struggle with. Yeah. And we wanna be very practical today. We’re gonna look into kinda some of the things that we have learned along the way around how to do this.

New Host:
But but maybe take a step back and let’s just talk about why it even matters. Mhmm. Why is it important for us to master, difficult conversations? Maybe, Kate, I’ll start with you on that.

Eric Deschamps:
Sure. I think difficult conversations are are hard. Yeah. Hence, the difficult conversation.

Wendy Dodds:
Right.

Eric Deschamps:
But I think they’re so I know. I’m a genius.

Unknown Guest:
Woah. My mind just got blown. They’re hard

Wendy Dodds:
because they’re difficult. Are they difficult because they’re hard?

Eric Deschamps:
If that’s the one thing you’ve learned today, thank you for tuning in.

Unknown Guest:
Thank you. And we’re done.

Eric Deschamps:
Mic drop. You’re

Kate Beere:
gonna have to

New Host:
Oh, that’s right.

Eric Deschamps:
I’ll elaborate.

Unknown Guest:
Okay. Oh, oh, please do.

New Host:
Please. Yeah. If you would be quiet, I’ll also so elaborate.

Kate Beere:
Why

Eric Deschamps:
I think they’re so important is because it creates vulnerability. And then when you’re vulnerable, it creates intimacy. And when you have that intimacy, it strengthens the relationship. Yeah. And I think we’re so we’re scared of these difficult conversations. And and I think what’s important to to start with is, like, difficult conversations aren’t always bad conversations. Sometimes it’s like you’re scared to tell someone that you love them. Like, it’s not always like I’m mad at you because of this.

Eric Deschamps:
And I and point. So I think when we’re talking about difficult conversations, it’s in that context of just a hard conversation, maybe something that feels very emotionally vulnerable.

Wendy Dodds:
I’m I’m really glad you elaborated. That’s a great question.

Eric Deschamps:
It’s it was more than hard.

New Host:
More than just hard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Wendy Dodds:
Well, I

Unknown Guest:
don’t know.

Wendy Dodds:
I you know, we talk about mastering it. I don’t know if we ever master this stuff, but I do think we can train ourselves, over time to be become more comfortable being uncomfortable.

Unknown Guest:
Mhmm.

Wendy Dodds:
I think yeah. I know in all the presentations you’ve done, and I’m gonna forget his name already, the author’s name, but, whether it’s at the office or it’s at home, it is better for us to embrace short term discomfort, than end up with long term dysfunction. And, I love that because we often, are so focused when we’re thinking of having that difficult conversation or we’d rather not have it. The reason we’re not having it or are tempted not to have it is we’re so fixated on what that’s gonna cost me. What’s it gonna cost me to find my courage and find my voice and say what I need to say? But what we’re not thinking about enough is the price we’re paying for silence. When we don’t bring those things forward, there we’re gonna pay a cost either way. Is that the the, again, I think paying the price of having the conversation means that there’s hope for change, hope for better things. Mhmm.

Wendy Dodds:
Silence stay keeps you stuck Yeah.

New Host:
In your current context. So that’s Peter Peter Bromberg who Thank you. Said that, and and you’re right. There’s that it’s such a powerful quote, the notion of and I and what I appreciate about the language around that is the notion of short term, long term. Right? Yeah. So, yes, a difficult conversation, short term. Not having a difficult conversation, long

Wendy Dodds:
term dysfunction.

New Host:
Which one you want? Why why is it important?

Kate Beere:
Well, so I think we spend more time and energy creating scenarios

Wendy Dodds:
in

Kate Beere:
our head as to what the other person is gonna say.

New Host:
Oh, that is so good.

Kate Beere:
Gonna react.

Eric Deschamps:
We’re We’re

Wendy Dodds:
already having the conversation.

Kate Beere:
You’re already having the bright you’re already writing a book in your head, and you’re like, as humans, we tend to gravitate so much to but what if this happens, and what if this goes wrong with this? But what if it goes right? And what if what if it just ends up breaking down those barriers in those walls? Because over time, when we and this is something I’ve all of us have learned, but, you know, over time, not saying anything, not worrying so much about it coming out perfectly. Mhmm. Those bricks that we end up building end up becoming these huge walls that are so hard to tear down

New Host:
Mhmm.

Kate Beere:
When you are ready to learn how to share or have those difficult conversations. So I think if we shifted our energy or learn to shift our energy and that inner critic too, but what if it does go right? And what if it does end up being the best conversation you’ve ever had? What what then?

Wendy Dodds:
I love that. I I love that. The the stories we tell ourselves. Right? That we’re actually spending already so much emotional, mental energy having these conversations with ourselves instead of having it with the person that we need to have it with. And the reality is the longer we delay having it, the harder it becomes to actually have. Because we tell ourselves these stories, and it becomes this massive issue in our heads that maybe perhaps isn’t even accurate.

New Host:
Right. So you mentioned and and you you know, you said, what if what if it goes we’re always thinking, again, the stories, what what if it goes wrong? What if it goes right? Give me an example. Difficult conversation you’ve had that that actually had a positive, outcome.

Wendy Dodds:
You wanna go first? Who who’s gonna

Eric Deschamps:
I’ll go.

Wendy Dodds:
I mean,

Eric Deschamps:
I don’t have a specific example. I think there’s been a few examples. I’m gonna use you and I. Yeah.

Wendy Dodds:
Okay.

Eric Deschamps:
Okay. But

New Host:
Careful how you answer.

Eric Deschamps:
I think, and I’m not gonna pick one out because there’s been a few. Mhmm. But I think what Eric and I have learned is by staying in the difficult conversation and having the difficult conversation, what comes out the other side isn’t that hard. And so what’s so beautiful about that is, let’s say, we’re having a disagreement. I remember once around my kitchen island, and we were just we were just not hearing each other, and it it wasn’t a heated anything. We just weren’t hearing each other, and we’re both very passionate about what we were talking about. And then we you know, I went away on the island, so now we’re, like, face

Unknown Guest:
She’s a giant fan of the water.

Wendy Dodds:
She kicked me off the island.

Eric Deschamps:
You’re you’re not no. But then we talked about it. And because we have such a solid foundation that we agreed to, that we we have a safe space where we can have difficult conversations and that we both trust that it won’t it won’t harm the relationship or I know I can say what’s really on my mind and we’ll talk it out. And I remember that was one of the first times we actually talked and we heard each other, and we talked it. And then afterwards, I came back around the other side, and we sat down. And knives were delayed.

Wendy Dodds:
She let me back on the island.

Kate Beere:
Back and put the cast iron pan away.

Eric Deschamps:
And then we

New Host:
I barely made it out of line. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
Barely. And then we just sat, and we looked at each other, and we’re like, fuck. I’m we’re really proud of each other that we talked that through Yeah. Versus avoiding it and parking it and not having the conversation. So for me, I don’t know. That was a maybe an example without an example.

Wendy Dodds:
Oh, I’ve got another example, and I I’d say gelato. We were in Siena on our recently on our trip, and we have just finished a a week in France. Part of that was my daughter, getting married in Antibes. And and as wonderful as that is, and it was it was wonderful, weddings are stressful. Right? Family time like that, it can be stressful and it’s emotionally draining. And so here we are kind of decompressing now in Italy. The the temperature is 40 degrees plus every single day. Like, we’re literally as we’re walking around, you’re you’re following the shade.

Wendy Dodds:
Like, where do you wanna go? This way because there’s shade. Like, you’re literally doing that because it’s so hot. And so we stopped for gelato. And anyways, the things unfold and there was just a big misunderstanding about what was unfolding in that moment. And we ended up there were some hurt feelings. Right? And some misunderstanding. And I know that old Eric and then it came out. Right? Like, we started talking about it, in on the drive back, actually, or on the walk out of Sienna.

Wendy Dodds:
Yeah. And then on the drive out, and we started talking about it. In the past, I would have shut down completely. I would have wanted to avoid that. I would have probably not communicated my own needs in that moment. I would have just said that was my fault, my fault, my fault. But we both stayed in that discomfort. Right? And again, proud of us for doing we stayed in the discomfort.

Wendy Dodds:
There was no angry emotion. There were some hurt feelings because of misunderstanding. But Yeah. We stayed in it till we and it was almost like, oh, I thought this and we’re able to explain. This is what I was feeling. This is what I was feeling. And then you go through that discomfort and you come out on the other side. You understand each other better.

Wendy Dodds:
Right? And what could have been, you know, a real downer for the rest of the our time there or at least the rest of that day was was behind us now. We right? And we’ve also figured out that, wet naps can save a relationship. Make sure you always have

Eric Deschamps:
At all times, you need wet naps.

Wendy Dodds:
You need wet naps, especially if you’re gonna have gelato in 40 degree weather.

Eric Deschamps:
We’ll spare you the details.

New Host:
I I thought the argument was over the best flavor of That’s right. Bottle, but clearly, it had something else. But I will always have wet naps with me now.

Wendy Dodds:
Yeah. Always have wet naps with me. Alright.

New Host:
Yeah. That’s good for today.

Kate Beere:
Follow us

New Host:
on your relationship

Unknown Guest:
advice. You got that

Wendy Dodds:
one for free.

New Host:
We’re we’re gonna get into a bunch of the practical things to keep in mind when you are setting up to have a difficult conversation like what happened. Just in what you shared. Yeah. There’s a number of those, right, about timing, when to have depending on the conversation. Right? You need to have a a difficult conversation with someone unless it’s in the moment, something like that, where there’s hurt feelings. Don’t plan to have it when it’s 40 degrees out, for example. But we’ll get into those practical things. Yeah.

New Host:
Any that you can think of where you’ve had a difficult conversation and a positive outcome?

Kate Beere:
We’ve had a few situations where my

New Host:
Well, I wasn’t thinking with me. Like, you get the examples that don’t include me?

Kate Beere:
This is about me. Oh.

Wendy Dodds:
There I have a few examples from today.

Kate Beere:
Right. Yeah. It’s just some reflections on how we are always in a continued season of growth. Right? And and we had a situation, I don’t even know if you remember this. But, so sometimes my my right?

New Host:
Of course, I remember. Right? Honey?

Kate Beere:
No wet nap for your gelato. But sometimes my old habits shine through, not in the most flattering way. And one thing I’m trying to work on is remember that he’s not a mind reader. And so sometimes and I think females kinda tend to gravitate to this where we just assume they should know why I’m upset, and he didn’t know, which made me even more upset.

Wendy Dodds:
We’re not that bright.

Kate Beere:
And so instead of to say. So instead of using my big girl words, as doctor Sherry

Wendy Dodds:
and I like to

Eric Deschamps:
call them,

Kate Beere:
I left. I didn’t storm out, but I left really without communicating to him, and I left to go to the gym. And I just said, going to the gym. See you later, and left. And, when I came back, the communication unfolded where he was very vocal about how upset he was, and I remember you used the words. You’re like, I am pissed off, and I’d never heard him. Him. He wasn’t yelling or anything, but it it we we stood in the kitchen, and we talked through how hurt both of us was because I chose not to communicate.

Kate Beere:
He chose not to communicate or take time to understand my feelings around, you know, the situation.

New Host:
Yeah.

Kate Beere:
But that’s just a reminder that we’re always on a continued path of growth and improvement.

Wendy Dodds:
100%. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. It’s training, isn’t it? Like

New Host:
Oh, yeah.

Wendy Dodds:
We talk about, I loved or, on the last show, we had, Don LaChanze and we had Matthew Rippe Young. And Matthew at one point made the the statement that, we were talking about, becoming vulnerable, especially as a man. And, of course, there’s the fear often if you do that, if you haven’t been that way, that if you do that, you’re gonna experience a lot of rejection, a lot of mocking, a lot of, like, criticism. He says he he talked about taking small risks. Right? Take a small risk.

New Host:
Don’t don’t don’t, like, go

Wendy Dodds:
off the deep end. Take a small risk. And over time, you’re gonna figure out, like, what’s safe, what’s not safe, who accepts you, who doesn’t. And I think it’s the same here. It’s like you don’t go from, you know, picking up crucial the book crucial conversations and reading it and going, oh, that’s great, and go out there, and tomorrow you’re doing that shit. No. You’re you’re probably incorporating a couple little things, and I think it’s more about getting honestly comfortable with the discomfort. I don’t know if you ever get truly comfortable, but more comfortable knowing that every time

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Wendy Dodds:
These things just are that way. They’re emotionally charged. And, again, the more emotional we are, emotions are a great thing. But, it’s actually, let me change my language. The more anxious we are, about that, the more anxious we are, the the dumber we get. Right? Like, we we’re not at our best. So Right. But how do we learn how to regulate better? Practice.

Wendy Dodds:
Mhmm. Like, practice, practice, practice. Right? It’s so good.

New Host:
It’s so true. And I’m always alarmed when I, you know, talk to a couple and they go, oh, we never argue. Yeah. Oh, shit. Right? And it’s it’s not like, you know, maybe you should. Like, may maybe maybe that that may why don’t you do some practicing? Practice arguing with them. Right? So why is that a why why, why are having difficult conversations, or how do they lead to a better relationship for like, why why should we actually aim for having difficult conversations from time to time? Yeah.

Kate Beere:
Well, I think it promotes growth and trust. Well, it does promote growth and trust because you can’t grow just being stagnant and just pretending everything is

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Totally.

Kate Beere:
Fine Yeah. Because a lot of the inner work comes from, you know, like, when you see a tree growing, you don’t see what’s going on underneath the soil, and that’s really, you know, how we nurture our relationship is really by embracing that that growth and recognizing that, that allows people or us or anybody to feel safe in showing up. Regardless of Yeah. How messy it is, you become more and more safe and more and more, just your ability strengthens to be able to show up authentically and not 100%. Worry so much about how the other person is gonna respond. 100%. Totally.

Eric Deschamps:
And I think too, it, like, it removes the fuzziness. Like, to go back to what you said about we make up stories. So, like, in your scenario that you just gave, I don’t know what your scenario was, but you you’re making up a script. You’re making up a script. And if you don’t actually have the conversation and and talk it through, that script is still running, and that’s still your version of what happened.

Wendy Dodds:
Yeah. It’s your version of the truth.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. It’s your version of the truth. So by having the conversation, it removes the fog. And a lot of the time, what’s actually going on is not at all what you thought or what you thought was going on. And so when you get insight to what was going on for your person or your partner or your boss or whatever, you get their perspective, their side, how they’re feeling. You’re like, oh, I didn’t see it that way.

Wendy Dodds:
Yeah. Totally.

New Host:
Story is being told.

Kate Beere:
Yep. Right?

New Host:
And I often will say this even with clients when they’re like, well, I don’t know if I wanna bring this up with my team. And my response is a story is already being written. Yeah. You can be part of writing it

Wendy Dodds:
Yeah.

New Host:
Or you can just let it be written.

Wendy Dodds:
Right. Yeah. The urban legend is already circulating. Absolutely.

Kate Beere:
Yeah. Totally.

Wendy Dodds:
Again, whether it’s true or not doesn’t matter. Perception is reality. So if I perceive something a certain way, I will interact with that situation as though that is true Totally. Even though it may be completely unfounded or at best incomplete. Right?

New Host:
And I’ve only got

Wendy Dodds:
part of the story. Right? We talked also on the last show with, our our our two friends that we need to bring back again because that was a great conversation. But I said, I was interviewed recently, for another podcast, and we’re talking about how how we spend, I think, most of our twenties, thirties into our forties even building this false construct, this false self. Right? The supposed life, who we think people want us to be, to to fit in and belong and the rest of it. And then if we have a moment of of awakening, because not everyone does. Right. But if we have a moment of awakening, then we spend the rest of our lives deconstructing that and building up our authentic self, right, which is the whole living richly journey, as far as we’re concerned. False constructs lead to faulty connections.

Wendy Dodds:
So if 2 people are connecting based on false and let’s just assume that that’s happening an awful lot. Right? That we are attracted to someone or we we’re in relationship with someone or even at work professionally where I’ve got an idea of who that person is, they’ve got an idea of who I am. We’re both kind of posturing and, even in an innocent way, just trying to make sure that we’re we’re good. Well, the connection is based on, let’s face it, apart it’s it’s a lie. It’s not true. Yeah. So how can the con con con the, connection ever be healthy, long term?

New Host:
Oh, yeah.

Wendy Dodds:
Difficult conversations help you cut through that that, to to your point, cut through that fog. Yeah. They help you cut or or move past the games that we play. Yeah. And all of a sudden, you’re dealing more with the real person, and you’re understanding their needs, their wants, their fears, their anxieties, and that’s what builds true intimacy. I love what we said on the last show, vulnerability. Right? Vulnerability is not just for women which we’ve we’ve gotten that feedback before. It makes you as, to quote Matthew Rippey Young, tough as fuck.

Wendy Dodds:
Yeah. And I think that’s true in a relationship as well. Yeah.

New Host:
Yeah. It’s so good. I love I love what you said at the beginning as well around this. When we’re talking difficult conversations, we’re not talking always just negative. Right. Yeah. And and I think it’s so sometimes, and I and I certainly hope if you’re listening in, watching in on on on YouTube, don’t interpret, don’t change the language of difficult conversations and put argument or conflict. Right? Because that’s not what we’re talking about.

New Host:
We’re talking about difficult conversations. Sometimes there are opportunities for growth. There’s all kinds of things. And I remember just recently, you and I having a conversation where you had made a comment about your Wendy’s eyes just got really big. She’s like, what the hell is he doing? What do

Kate Beere:
you do? Comment about my

Wendy Dodds:
because you’re holding your boobs, dude.

New Host:
Like, you’re so Not holding my boobs. I’m You

Wendy Dodds:
were kinda caressing them, actually. Touching my chest. No. You were kinda caressing. It was I’m

Unknown Guest:
It was awkward for all of us.

New Host:
Wife cuppy. For those

Wendy Dodds:
of you on YouTube, you could put in the comments whether he was caressing his boobs or not. He was caressing his boobs. Don’t do that.

New Host:
We’ll get, rated on,

Eric Deschamps:
YouTube. Totally.

New Host:
But we were having a conversation. You were talking about a situation where and you were saying I need to, I recognize I’ve got an issue with this individual and I need to I need to figure out how to work with them or how to how to kinda get past that. In the past, my behavior would have been, oh, no. No. You’re good. Like, you know, I would have been just and instead what I said was, yeah. Yeah. You do.

New Host:
Like, yep. Absolutely. Let’s talk about how that looks.

Eric Deschamps:
That’s amazing.

New Host:
That was but that’s a that’s a difficult conversation. Right? That’s a difficult conversation. In truth where here is the person I care the deepest about, who I would literally run through a brick wall for

Wendy Dodds:
Yeah.

New Host:
Is recognizing I needed some growth in this area rather than me just kinda trying to dismiss the growth. Yeah. I’m I’m I’m jumping in. That’s a difficult conversation. And that’s what we’re talking about is these this is why these are so critical and important.

Wendy Dodds:
But what a great example of how uncomfortable we are with any amount of discomfort. So Wendy says, I feel I I want to learn how to work with this person. It’s the right? And what’s our immediate place? Well, she’s feeling uncomfortable.

New Host:
I can fix that.

Wendy Dodds:
I’m gonna take the pressure off. No, you’re good. It’s okay. Right? But it takes courage, right, to know support and say no. Because many times, I think maybe in our relationships, we are enabling one another

Eric Deschamps:
to keep

Wendy Dodds:
going down perhaps a path that’s not gonna serve us very well. Mhmm. But we’re doing it again to avoid short term dis like, discomfort, but we end up with that dysfunction that we talked about, earlier. Right?

New Host:
So we we’ve established. We’ve spent about 15 minutes here talking about why it’s important, what are some of the positive outcomes, how it’s helps foster relationships.

Wendy Dodds:
Mhmm.

New Host:
We know that. And I think everyone listening probably is sitting back going, I know that having difficult conversations is a good thing to learn how to do. Why the fuck don’t we do it? Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Because we’re terrified. It’s fear. It’s all you get there’s so much around it that’s just fear of failure, fear fear of letting your partner down, fear of not getting the promotion, fear of, well, what are they gonna think if I actually speak up? It’s fear. We’re scared. I think at the core, it’s we’re we’re just very, very fearful no matter what it is. And so how many things do we not do out of fear? How many times do we not take that leap because we’re scared? How many times do we not tell someone we love them because we’re scared of what that might mean? And, again, to go back to when you have those conversations, it creates intimacy. And the truth is we’re most people are are very scared of true intimacy.

Eric Deschamps:
Because what if someone sees me for who I am Yeah. And they leave me?

Wendy Dodds:
And they leave me.

Eric Deschamps:
So I I think it’s

Wendy Dodds:
Fear. And since I years ago, I heard this, never forgot it. Fear is an acronym, stands for false expectations appearing real. Right? We we are afraid of these worst case scenarios, those stories we make up in our heads, and how often do those worst case scenarios actually manifest? Hardly ever if ever.

Eric Deschamps:
Right.

Wendy Dodds:
But we convince ourselves that these consequences are going to take place. These false expectations appear very real, and as a result, we withdraw. And we Oh, yeah. Right? Yeah. When we should be engaging and entering the arena.

New Host:
Yeah. Yeah. What what do you think?

Kate Beere:
I think we get we get really comfortable with settling for good enough. So I’m not gonna say anything because this is this is good enough. You know, like, you think about, a broken marriage. You know, like, not wanting to say anything because, well, I should be grateful for what I have. You know? You know, I I’ve got a house and my kids and, you know, a job. And, you know, so I so my my feelings, you know, people tend to dismiss them because, look, this is good. Like, I should be grateful for good. And we tend to forget that it’s okay to give up good for great, but the only way to do that is to have those difficult conversations.

Wendy Dodds:
Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
I

Wendy Dodds:
I’m a I’m a I’m a recovering, people pleaser, recovering peacemaker. So for me, difficult conversations were hard on so many different fronts because I’m always looking to please. I’m always looking to make peace. And underneath that for me too was this whole belief, and I’ve talked about it on the show, that I’m fatally flawed. So I actually deserve. I’m probably the cause of this. This is probably all my fault. Mhmm.

Wendy Dodds:
I may be pissed at you in this moment, but actually underneath it all the belief is I’m causing this. If I was a better person, this wouldn’t be happening. So it’s not about having the conversation. The problem is me.

Kate Beere:
Yeah.

Wendy Dodds:
Now that’s that’s well behind me now, and I’m not like that anymore.

Unknown Guest:
Mhmm.

Wendy Dodds:
I’m finding my voice more and more in the relationships that matter to me. Actually, I can say now there’s nobody in my life, in my inner circle, that is a taker. And part of that’s been very deliberate to say, now that I know who I am, I’m more comfortable with who I am, and I’m still growing on that front. I I really don’t want anyone in my inner circle where I can’t be me. Yeah. And I can’t I can’t, I I can’t find my voice. So I’m finding my voice more and more, but it’s taken a lot of training. I still get anxious.

Wendy Dodds:
I remember that conversation about the gelato right around the gelato. We’re gonna call it the gelato incident of Sienna. We’re not. I know we’re not because it was really not that serious. But, hopefully That sounds cool. That sounds sounds cool. The gelato incident. Right? I you know, one moment, I went really quiet, and I remember you saying, like, I don’t know what to do.

Wendy Dodds:
It’s awkward. You’re not saying anything. And I said, well, right now, I don’t know what I feel, and I I I’m trying to process what were what’s happening. And I’m I’m concerned that if I say something, it’s gonna come out sideways and make things worse. But even being able to articulate that and you then giving you the space and understanding, okay, I get that. Like Oh,

Eric Deschamps:
that whole and then I’m like, you’re quiet. Like, I just bared my soul, and I’m all vulnerable, and you’re like, doo doo doo. Driving

Wendy Dodds:
my car.

Unknown Guest:
Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
It’s just like I certainly I wasn’t doing it.

New Host:
I wasn’t to to do. It was more like, oh, what the fuck? I don’t know what

Wendy Dodds:
to say.

Eric Deschamps:
Let’s say something.

New Host:
Yeah. But it’s it is. Yeah. Yeah. They’re so good. And and and I think there’s so much. This is Joe, I don’t yeah. It’s gonna

Wendy Dodds:
every time apps

New Host:
people find apps. It it again, we have there’s so many reasons. When I ask the question, because usually when I do this talk and I’ll ask the question, we these are the things that we hear. Yeah. You know, the fear, the just, you know, be settled. Just be okay with it. I’m being selfish if I, you know, I I don’t know how the other person is gonna respond. So now I’ll be there’ll be no control.

New Host:
And, know, even as Canadians, just, you know, be be nice and just, you know, like accept it and everything like that. And I often after I hear a few different input, I often go back to biggest reason why we avoid difficult conversations is because we don’t even know how to have conversations.

Wendy Dodds:
Right? Yeah.

New Host:
Let alone difficult conversations. We don’t even know how to have conversation with people. And and the way I reason I know this is because often when people will say, hey, how’s things going with Wendy and, you know, how’s married life and everything like that. And I will say, you know, the one of the most beautiful, things that I get to experience with with Wendy is the level of conversations that we have around all kinds of different things, like the depth and the richness of the conversations. And almost without exception, the response I get from people is, man, I wish I had that or I wish that that was my experience or something like that. And part of me wants to go, then make it happen. Like, what are you waiting for? Like like, it’s not on somebody else to do that. We don’t even know how to have a conversation with somebody, let alone a difficult

Eric Deschamps:
I love that you said that because I think it’s so true. I think of a work setting, and I think of, like, for me wanting especially for women going into, your boss’s male. It’s it’s that’s already right there.

Wendy Dodds:
That’s a huge power dynamic.

Eric Deschamps:
Well, it is a power dynamic. And then you wanna ask for something, or you wanna you you know, you’re asking for a raise. You want more time off. You want more flexibility. Whatever you’re asking for in that scenario is, like, not being equipped. We’re not trained. We’re not there’s nobody coaching me on how to have that conversation.

Wendy Dodds:
Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
So to have that conversation, you you need help, and you need support, and you need guidance because we’re we’re not coached. We’re not taught how to go in. And I don’t like, when I go in there, I know I’m gonna be, like, defensive. Right? Like, am I gonna go with my armor? I’m gonna be like, I deserve the right?

New Host:
Like and

Eric Deschamps:
it’s like, that’s not necessarily gonna get me the outcome I want, but I think it’s such a good point because I don’t think we teach

New Host:
it. No.

Wendy Dodds:
And and I would add so to I you know, and we talked about the narrative or the false narrative that we make that, in addition to fear being, I think, one of the leading cause that we talk to it, fear and anxiety, judgment. Yeah. We make a judgment call on what’s going on, and often, it’s a jumping to conclusion snap judgment of the situation. I was recently asked after training an entire you were with me at, was at a client that client conference that we did together. And, the I was asked the same question in my last seminar for the day, and then it was asked against very same question in the very next session, which happened to be the big plenary session, like, the closing session with everybody present. And the question was basically, like, we were talking about how to, manage your thought life better, may it self regulate your emotions better because its key is success. Like, if you’re you’re you’re gonna struggle in life, if your thought life is out of control and undisciplined, and if you’re you can’t regulate emotionally, you’re gonna I’m not talking about suppression. I’m talking about regulation.

Wendy Dodds:
It’s very, very different. Anyways, a question was asked. Well, how do we do this stuff? What’s the what what would be your best advice? Something like that. What would be your best advice about how to do this better? And I said assume that the vast majority of the time, your first impression of what going is going on is either incomplete at best or at worst, incorrect. Completely incorrect. Your first judgment is based out of fear. You’re jumping. You’re passing judgment on the situation.

Wendy Dodds:
And now why would I wanna enter into a conversation with you when I’ve already found you guilty? Right? So so I think judgment is a big part of that as well.

New Host:
Okay. Let’s get really practical for the next Yeah. Note. And let’s let’s talk about some really key what can people do as they get ready. And I believe that there’s let’s we’re gonna just kinda break it into 3 parts. Before, during, after. Because I think oftentimes we all we think about most people when they think about having a conversation, difficult conversation, is the conversation, is the during. And yet I think you set yourself up for success in the before and after.

Wendy Dodds:
I believe so.

New Host:
You know, in in many things. So let’s talk about before. What are some practical suggestions that you would give to someone? Yeah. What are some things they should do in preparing for or getting ready for having a difficult conversation. No. No. No. No.

New Host:
No. No. No. Sorry.

Wendy Dodds:
That was the wrong answer. Do not have

New Host:
a difficult conversation when you’re shifting. No. No. Unless it’s a

Kate Beere:
little bit. I was gonna say have gelato, but No.

Unknown Guest:
It’s clearly a black ass.

New Host:
Yeah. So before gelato? Wet ass. Wet ass. Okay.

Eric Deschamps:
I think it’s get your head straight. So, like, what I mean by that is your mindset. If you’re telling yourself this is the hardest conversation, this is gonna be the like, I’m gonna be so stressed out. This is difficult. And, like, you I think you really do have to get your mind right. And I think it’s like, yeah. Okay. This this is gonna be uncomfortable, you know, but I’m expressing how I feel, and I wanna hear how this other person’s feel.

Eric Deschamps:
I think if you can just kinda switch gears a little bit on how you go in and not say to yourself, this is a horrible, horrible, hard thing. Right? So I think you set yourself up for failure by by going in there saying this is gonna be so hard.

New Host:
Yeah. So your your gratitude Yeah. Language. Right? Even looking at it that way, that perspective around that, I get I I get to have this this is an opportunity Yeah. To repair something versus, oh, this is gonna be horrible. I love it.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Yeah. And one thing I’m introducing is the, like, this get to framework, which is with get to because he’s acronym guy, so it’s rubbed off on me. But if you think about it, g is, like, in those moments, just say I get to, and g is like, I’m grounded. Okay. I’m good. Oh, yeah. E is exhale.

Eric Deschamps:
Take a breath. Mhmm. And then t, transform. Just transform your thought into and then you’ve got this get to reframe, and you can do it like that. Because I do believe in that foundation of gratitude.

Wendy Dodds:
And by the way, the, the hashtag acronym guy is now trending on TikTok.

Eric Deschamps:
Well, you you No.

Wendy Dodds:
It’s not.

Eric Deschamps:
Clearly worn off

Wendy Dodds:
of me. I would I wore off

New Host:
of it. Yeah.

Wendy Dodds:
Such a new fluid. Wore off of it. So so anyways, I think a step before even entering a specific conversation, we’re talking about preparation. Let’s back up and even talk about what guiding principles are you agreeing to together. And this can be done in the workplace. This can be and it’s trickier in the workplace, but I think, teams need to have guiding principles around how they’re going to engage, especially when we don’t agree. But I think couples, certainly, it’s important to say ahead of time. Because remember, the more heated you are, the more anxious you are, the more emotional in terms of emotionally, out of like, unregulated you are, the less you’re able to access your thinking brain.

Wendy Dodds:
You be you actually become literally, you become dumber in those moments. And and if you don’t believe me, think of the last time you lost your cool and think of the things you said and things you did. And afterwards, when you calm down, you’re like, what the fuck was that? Like, what was I thinking? Why did I say that? It’s because you’re not in your right mind in that moment. So when you are in your right mind, outside of any argument, outside of it, say, hey, like, let’s have a conversation about how we wanna do this together. Right? And one of ours is if, we get to a point in the conversation where it’s just too uncomfortable or we feel that I feel or you feel that, like, no. I I need to just I need to step away for a moment and just reset a little bit. That’s okay to do. Agree that timeouts are okay.

Wendy Dodds:
Yeah. But not not as a, avoidance move where you call a time out, but you don’t agree then when are we gonna talk again. Yeah. Like, it’s a time out to say, hey, I need 20 minutes. Hey. Can we just put a plug in this for now and maybe re pick this up again tonight Yeah. Or tomorrow, like, soon. Yeah.

Wendy Dodds:
But the the give yourself that permission to there’s going to be some conversations that are really loaded and trigger all kinds of shit in you. We’re we’re not machines. No. But that’s one one of the

New Host:
And I

Wendy Dodds:
You have to agree to that ahead of time.

New Host:
Yeah. And I do love I love with with those relationships that are longer relationships, significant relationships to to to do that when everything is good. In a good moment over a glass of wine, over a nice, you know, whatever, be able to sit and then let’s map this out. How are we going to when things are heated or one of us is hurt, how to, right, to map that out while everything while you’re in a good situation, let’s let’s have that.

Wendy Dodds:
Well, think of emergency response. Right? So, what happens if there’s a flood? What happens if there’s a hurricane? What happens if there’s an earthquake? They’re not creating the plan in the moment that while things are happening. No. They’re smart. They’ve done the the all their work. And so when that shows up, they can fall back not on emotion. They can fall back on what have we agreed to? What how is this gonna it doesn’t make it completely unemotional. No.

Wendy Dodds:
But it takes some of that energy out of them. So I think those guiding principles can be real.

New Host:
What would you say is a a a pre

Kate Beere:
well, I think preparing your environment. And, like, by that, I mean, like, you’re not don’t need to light candles and shit, but, like, prepare the environment where timing is everything.

Unknown Guest:
Mhmm. I could

Kate Beere:
light some candles.

New Host:
I was gonna say, that’s the first time I’ve really say candles and shit because because you’re, like, the candle queen. What

Wendy Dodds:
is is there music as well?

Eric Deschamps:
Well, that’s

New Host:
Definitely not that’s not the music that’s happening when they’re saying,

Kate Beere:
Break out the gelato. I mean, the wetness.

Wendy Dodds:
Wait a second. That took on a whole new meaning now.

Kate Beere:
No. But, I mean, timing is everything. So don’t be having conversations when, you know, you’re tired, you’re hungry, you’ve both just worked a 14 hour day. You you know, being able to make sure that you’re in an environment where you’re able to cultivate that right environment to then be able to have the conversation at the right time. On the flip side, don’t get ready to get ready because we tend to fall into that wall. Have the conversation after this is done, or I’ll have the conversation after this is done. You know? But be smart about like, nobody wants to have a conversation when they’re exhausted, when they’re hungry, they haven’t you know? So I I

New Host:
think that’s something

Wendy Dodds:
that Do those things and there’s a difference between getting ready. Right? Like, like, preparing for the conversation, I think, is really important. Get clear on what is important for you to say, what matters to you. Yeah. But be prepared as well. Equally prepared to listen Yeah. Deeply to what your partner or the other person, what matters to them. I think oftentimes preparation, what we call preparation, is we actually play through the argument in our mind.

Kate Beere:
Oh, yeah.

Wendy Dodds:
They say this, then they’re gonna say that, then I’m gonna counter with this, and I’m gonna sucker punch them here, they’re gonna fake them out. Right? Like, we we we play out this scenario that again is, it’s not about mapping out the conversation. Just get clear on what’s going on for you and then be prepared to listen equally

New Host:
Yeah. What’s going on with them. We’ll get into it as we go into the conversation. No. No. You’re ahead. No. You’re right.

New Host:
We’re gonna talk about even You’re sticking I’m going too slow. The value of active of of, do we need to have a conversation? Probably. The notion of active listening, I think, is absolutely critical. Let me suggest one more thing that this has absolutely saved me many times, and that is in the preparation of before you have the difficult conversation, is write that shit out. Write it out. We there’s an old, you know, cliche kinda until it passes through the lips or the fingertips, it isn’t real. The number of times where I’ll write out, here’s what’s bugging me, here’s why it’s bugging me, here’s how I’m feeling and all this stuff, I write that out or I even just talk it talk it out loud so I can hear myself saying it, where I go, that is really stupid, or that is that is really petty or or am I really bothered? Like, I’m really It’s like when you right?

Wendy Dodds:
Think something’s super funny

New Host:
Yeah. In your head Yeah. And then you say it and it looks at you like Oh.

Unknown Guest:
And you go, oh.

New Host:
So I you know, there are times where I’m like, you know, all of a sudden in my brain, I’m creating this whole scenario. And when I write it and I’m like, I’m gonna talk to, you know, whoever, you, Wendy, or whatever. And then I write it out and I go, oh, wait a minute. That’s one either, oh, that’s a me issue. Yeah. Right? Now that I see it or just, oh, that’s really silly. I’m burning this paper before anybody ever sees that I actually thought about this. Right? There’ll be no evidence for

Unknown Guest:
me, you

New Host:
know, that I ever thought that. It it it will save you to, when you get into an old I

Eric Deschamps:
couldn’t agree more.

New Host:
Yeah. So okay. During the conversation, we’re we’re starting to, we got about probably about another 8 minutes here. So let’s during the conversation, what are some of the things that you would suggest that people should be aware of, conscious of when having a difficult conversation?

Eric Deschamps:
Like your body physically. So I’m a big believer. We have talked about this quite a lot on the show. Like, listen to your body. So when you’re having that difficult conversation, if someone says something to you and you feel it, like, you are, like, defensive. You are, like, I’m pissed, and it’s all rising in your body. Just pay attention to it

Wendy Dodds:
Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
And don’t necessarily give it a voice. And so I think that’s one thing. And I like, nobody manages this, like, 100% perfectly. Oh, I’m good. There’s anger. Okay. Don’t talk to anger. I don’t mean to I just mean, like, we do that.

New Host:
You should get close-up

Unknown Guest:
of this.

New Host:
You you guys are the more that you guys are so acting the same way. Like

Unknown Guest:
Oh my god.

New Host:
My god. It’s scary.

Eric Deschamps:
No. I lost all the crayons. You

Wendy Dodds:
were saying that 8 none of us do it perfectly.

New Host:
Right? What? Being aware of your the your body. Being aware of

Eric Deschamps:
So physically. But when you feel the resentment and the anger, it it really does it’s like your blood is boiling and then you can feel it. And when you feel that, just get present to it and feel it. And when I say literally don’t give it a voice, I mean, just don’t let the anger speak. And sometimes that means don’t speak, don’t answer, don’t say anything, and to, you know, active listening and sitting and listening. And that can be really hard when you just wanna defend or you wanna, like you just you wanna speak to the anger, but just observe it. Because what’s so cool is once you start to observe it in your body, you’ll notice it all over the place. Like, when someone cuts you off in traffic, you’re like, and you’re like, really? Like, to your point, I’m gonna crumple that up and throw it.

Eric Deschamps:
You just told that story.

New Host:
No. No. She’s looking at me. Oh.

Unknown Guest:
I could I saw that. I feel this. I I listen. I can feel the I go across the table. Like, I I my dream. Yeah. Gotta run over my Jeep.

Wendy Dodds:
Well, we can,

Unknown Guest:
though, is the issue.

Eric Deschamps:
That’s the problem

Unknown Guest:
with this.

Wendy Dodds:
Yeah. Other other cars are are nothing more than speed bumps like

Unknown Guest:
you’re I gotta drive over.

Wendy Dodds:
I would say I would add to what you said and say, like, when you said, like, don’t attach feeling to everything or or sorry. Don’t, don’t give don’t attach so much weight Yeah. To everything that’s being said, especially when it’s awkward because none of us are are are gonna communicate perfectly in those moments. And so we’re we may be trying to make a point or communicate what we’re going through or experiencing, and it may come out sideways. And if we attach weight to every little thing, and now I’m offended by this, I’m offended by that, or you mean you’re attacking me or you’re blaming me, like, the more we do that, the more difficult it is to sift through and actually get to the truth. Right? We’re just we’re the waters are

New Host:
getting very murky at that point. That’s back to what you said earlier about if you go in already prejudging, then you’re looking for all you’re just looking for validation

Wendy Dodds:
for the judgement. Totally. And you’re not listening to to understand. You’re listening for your next opportunity to make your case. Totally. And that is not a conversation. No.

Eric Deschamps:
No. Yeah. And that’s

Kate Beere:
The only thing I’ll add around because we talked a lot about emotions and just learning to embrace the emotions and be okay with even those unexpected emotions that might come up that you’re not prepared for. Mhmm. But recognizing that training your mind and your behavior that going in and recognizing that it will be okay however it comes out because the right people in your life will be okay with that, and recognizing that frustration is misplaced expectations. So when we start to, you know, play the story of, you know, if I say this and they’re gonna right? We already have that expectation in our mind. And then when it doesn’t happen like that, then we’re frustrated because our expectations so instead of going in with those expectations, learn to be okay with embracing all of the emotions that come with it as but it’s hard. I mean, you know, like you said, it’s, like, fucking hard. Like, we talk like we’re experts at it. We’re not.

Wendy Dodds:
Rob and I are. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
Yes. You are.

Unknown Guest:
You you

New Host:
ladies are still catching up.

Kate Beere:
Oh. Are you ready to close-up the show? Yeah.

New Host:
Because No. No. No. Walk away. We need

Eric Deschamps:
to have

Wendy Dodds:
a dip

New Host:
no. No. I’m making popcorn.

Unknown Guest:
There is.

New Host:
I’m I’m ready to

Kate Beere:
go to dinner.

New Host:
Conversation. I am a novice.

Kate Beere:
Talk about their future of the podcast.

Wendy Dodds:
Oh, shit. Okay. I got I take that back. That was a joke. That was a joke.

Kate Beere:
It’s really funny.

Eric Deschamps:
I know. Master.

Kate Beere:
That was nice.

Unknown Guest:
Can you

Wendy Dodds:
please we should talk about what to do after. Isn’t that where we are now in

Unknown Guest:
the podcast? No. No. No. No. We’re

New Host:
right. You’re

Wendy Dodds:
gonna let me hang. Hey. You’re just letting me hang.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Wendy Dodds:
Well, and it very gets very uncomfortable.

New Host:
And I I think around around the emotion, one of the things that I would certainly challenge people is, when you’re in that moment, right, oftentimes, you’re making me angry. No no one’s making you angry. You’re choosing anger.

Wendy Dodds:
Right.

New Host:
You may be feeling angry Yeah. But it’s a it’s again, it’s a choice that we have. And so we need to we need to we have control. One of the things, we have control over how we react Yeah. In any environment. I get that sometimes that’s hard to stay in that control, but you do have that ability to choose how you you will respond regardless of what the other person is saying to you. Yeah. Let’s before we move to our closing, I because I we mentioned active listening.

New Host:
Active listening is such it it it is like the it it’s the gold star

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. In

New Host:
that difficult conversation. So what is it to you? So what that’s why I’m Yeah. That’s where I’m going is what is active listening? What are some of the when we say active listening, what do we mean by that?

Wendy Dodds:
I Like, body language is a bit part of it. Oh, body language is huge. You know, if you’re sitting there, you know, back in your chair, kinda going away from the other person, arms crossed, like, what Kate’s doing right now, That’s communicating very close. It’s not active. That’s very defensive. Right? And

New Host:
And let me jump in on that because it’s funny because I use that example. I remember the very first time I did this presentation in a group and I said, you know, body language. I said, you know, doing this represents closed. And there was a couple of women in the room. There’s about 25 people in the room, and a couple of the women right away did this, and they said, no. No. I’m just cold. Well, and

Kate Beere:
a lot of women are cold.

New Host:
Right. And so then I said So ladies get a sweater. Well, my response to my response to that was

Unknown Guest:
Oh, wow.

New Host:
And also don’t don’t interpret somebody’s body language. Yeah. Yeah. Make a conclusion around. Yeah. You can say, I’m feeling by how you know, I’m I’m getting a sense that you’re feeling or that you’re you’re close to what I’m just saying. No, I’m just cold. Oh, thank you for that.

New Host:
That’s part of active listening is clarifying what you’re seeing

Wendy Dodds:
Yeah.

New Host:
Or what you’re hearing. Absolutely. I would say asking the clarifying questions is a critical part of active listening. What else is that involved in active listening?

Eric Deschamps:
Listening, like, hearing and not preparing your response, literally sitting and listening without the script for me, without the script playing on how I’m gonna answer this, what I wanna say next, what’s coming, but just to sit and listen and not have to prepare a response for me. And I think it’s really hard for us to listen, period. I think sitting there and really hearing, like, in a relationship, your partner, you you have to be present, eye contact, Listen. Yeah. Hear. Not prepare a response. They’re like, it’s very challenging to make that connection for me. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
That’s the hard one.

Wendy Dodds:
Yeah. Yeah. The eye where the eye contact is you.

Eric Deschamps:
It is. But to sit there and actually in it you know, when you’re driving in the Fiat, we’re not looking at each other.

Wendy Dodds:
Well, I said I was driving. I had to drive.

Eric Deschamps:
I know. And you had to drive a stick.

Wendy Dodds:
I had to drive a stick in a tiny little Fiat.

Eric Deschamps:
And I had a screen all over my hands because

Wendy Dodds:
we didn’t have wet nap. We didn’t have

New Host:
wet nap. So it’s very hard. Anything you would ask?

Wendy Dodds:
Try it

New Host:
to I’m done with the gelato story. Thing on the Domino’s. I I I gelato incident.

Kate Beere:
So body language we’ve talked about body language is how important it is, and I’ll go back to just setting the environment.

Wendy Dodds:
Mhmm.

Kate Beere:
You can’t actively listen when in your head you’re thinking about what your grocery list is or that you gotta take the laundry out of the washing machine before the mildew sits in, and your phone is on the counter, and you can see it kinda highlight and, oh, somebody’s texting me. So I think being really conscious of and being okay with saying that, like, I wanna sit down and have a conversation with you. Let me just put the laundry and let me and then let me turn my phone off, and then let’s sit down so we’re not doing it on the fly where it feels like it’s rushed and not important enough.

Wendy Dodds:
And I think anxiety causes us to jump the gun. Right? Yeah. We we’re so anxious about having it. We work up the courage to raise the subject, and but then we feel I need to jump into it right away when and maybe the best thing is to say, I wanna have this conversation with you. Is this a good time to have it? Yes. And if the other person says, actually, I yeah. I agree. That’s really important.

Wendy Dodds:
We do need to talk about that. But right now, dot dot dot, can we do this? Right? Now, again, if a person is using that tactic to avoid the conversation altogether, that’s different. But if it’s just respecting the other person to say, we want to set this conversation up for success. Let’s make sure we do everything we can to create an environment where we both feel more comfortable, both feel less distracted, both feel more heard. But I agree with you. The listening piece was at the old saying, you know, we have, one mouth, 2 ears. Right? We should listen twice as much as we speak. And I think if we even just follow that guideline in a in a difficult conversation, it would be so much more.

New Host:
And I think it had it listening is a skill

Wendy Dodds:
that we’ve learned. Oh, yeah.

New Host:
Totally. And to your point, because oftentimes what we’re doing is as the person’s talking, as we’ve already said this, we’re formulating our response. Right? We’re we’re coming up with it. And then what we’re feeling like is we have to jump in and almost cut someone off Yeah. Because or else I’m not gonna get hurt. And it’s it the the skill and the confidence that comes from being able to and I remember I share I love sharing the story, around this is being in a networking event and having a conversation with this individual, this guy. And he’s asking me some questions, and he’s and he’s listening, and I’m sharing I’m responding to him, and then there’s a pause. Now we’re not used to the pause.

New Host:
No. Right? So Not comfortable. So part of it, I kinda like he’s waiting for me to say more and I almost jump in with more. And and I this happened a couple of times and then he said, oh, he said I probably should explain. I’m I I I wanna be so focused on what you’re saying. I apologize. It takes me a second to just kinda think about what I wanna ask next.

Eric Deschamps:
Interesting.

New Host:
I and I I joke around when I do a presentation around this is that I mean, the guy could have asked me to marry him right then. And I was like, I felt so heard. Right? Like, he just I felt like for the first time somebody was listening. Right? Because because he was truly in tune with just you could tell he genuinely was curious about what I was saying, and he was and he and he was confident enough to go, how would that how would that play out? And he but he was not afraid to have that pause, not afraid that somebody would have to jump in. Now he explained it because I kept jumping in so then he was like, it’s okay. You don’t need to jump in. I’m I’m right? So that’s

Eric Deschamps:
Interesting.

New Host:
Alright. We’re on we gotta land the plane but very quickly Yep. What about after? Yeah. So we know some we’ve had some suggestions during, some suggest before, some suggestions during. What are some things that we should do once we’ve had the difficult the the difficult conversation’s over? Is it over? For me,

Wendy Dodds:
I think an important skill or an important step it often gets missed is circling back.

Unknown Guest:
Mhmm. You

New Host:
do this great.

Wendy Dodds:
Circling back. So this is, you’ve had a difficult conversation. You’ve you’ve said a bunch of things, and and hopefully, you’ve heard each other and understood. But sometimes, you know, there’s lingering issues, something needed to get said that didn’t get said, or maybe something was misunderstood, but now you’re like, we’re done. Like, we’re we’ve done so much work. But circling back and just checking in, are we good? Is there anything else that you need to talk about or say? Was there anything that you didn’t quite understand? Or maybe I said it in a certain way and you’re not sure how to take it. Like, the circling back is so important. And and this isn’t just in personal relationships.

Wendy Dodds:
I think even in, in the workplace, if you’re a manager, for example, and you’ve got to give some feedback to an employee about, what their performance or whatever, like, circle back a couple days later at check-in to have So good. You have any questions? Is there anything else I can do? Are we good? Like, that is such an important way. There’s always going to be remnants Mhmm. Where there’s some things that instead of, instead of periods and exclamation points on the end of the sentence, there’s a question mark. And the more question marks we’re left with, the more we set ourselves up for resentment, bitterness potentially, and misunderstanding in the future. So certainly That’s a great one. That’s one I’m working on more and more.

New Host:
Yeah. You do great. I I think you do a really good job. Certainly, with me, you

Wendy Dodds:
do that often. Thank you, brother.

Eric Deschamps:
She does it with me too. Yeah. Always. Even on a personal level.

New Host:
Yeah. What about for you guys? What would be advice for after?

Eric Deschamps:
I think you just, like, from an individual perspective, just honor and applaud yourself for having the difficult conversation. You know? Like, just love on yourself a little bit for having, you know, the kudos to get out there and have the conversation. Or if someone else brings up a hard conversation, you’re not expecting it, again, just applaud yourself for being able to sit Right. In it.

New Host:
How often we after the we’re right away, we start beating ourselves up. Totally. Tellers remorse. You call that tellers remorse. Right. Oh, I love that. Just celebrate that you did it. Maybe you didn’t do it exact 100% the way you want.

Eric Deschamps:
Right? Who cares? I love that. Yeah.

Kate Beere:
I just I think that pulse check, it kinda ties back to what you were saying, Eric, on circling back. But really asking whoever you had the conversation with, how are you feeling about what we talked about? Yeah. And going more on that intrinsic feeling of really connecting with how you feel on an emotional level and how they feel versus, which a lot of people have a tendency to do this is is kinda keeping score on, you know, who won the conversation, you know.

Wendy Dodds:
Who won the debate? Right. Exactly.

New Host:
Yeah. I’m all out. I think that’s 2 more that I would add. 1 is, summarize it, write it out. I I’m a big fan of especially, certainly in a in a business conversation with an employer or whatever. Send out an email. Here’s what we discussed. Here’s what I heard.

New Host:
Let’s wanna make sure is this what circle back. Yeah. You’re right. That is that is a circle back. That is a circle back.

Wendy Dodds:
Yeah.

New Host:
And I think it’s good to do that even in a in a in a personal, conversation relationship. I think the other one that is often missed is say thank you.

Unknown Guest:
Mhmm.

New Host:
It is amazing to me how many times you have a difficult conversation. It doesn’t end the way you wanted it. You didn’t get the result. And just saying, you know what? I know we didn’t we weren’t able to agree on this, but I wanna thank you for trying. Mhmm. I wanna thank you for having the conversation.

Kate Beere:
Sure.

New Host:
Sometimes that’s all it takes for somebody to say, you know what? Let’s give it another shot. Let’s see if we can figure this out. And so and we miss that. So those are some two things that I would I would, certainly put out there as well. At the end of the day, you gotta make a choice. You’re either gonna choose to push through that short term discomfort or you’re gonna embrace the long term dysfunction. Yeah. Either way, something’s happening Both are hard.

New Host:
If we avoid. Both are hard.

Wendy Dodds:
It’s harder.

New Host:
Both are hard. Yeah. Choose your hard.

Kate Beere:
Choose your hard.

New Host:
Ultimately, what

Wendy Dodds:
it is. Yeah.

New Host:
Listen, we wanna thank you so much for taking the time to be a part of this episode. We’d love to hear from you. These are the kind of, conversations that are not just the 4 of us having them. We want you to add some comments. We want you to share this out with your thoughts around these these episodes. And so we wanna encourage you to do that. Exactly that is to like it, to share it, add your comments to it. Make sure you check out our website.

New Host:
There’s all kinds of great information there. We drop information into the, show notes as well. Perhaps we’ll even put in the, we have guiding principles that we use with how we run Rhapsody. Yep. We’ll maybe put that in the show notes as an example of something you might use to build out some guiding principles for you and your the people that are most important in your life. So, check that out. You’ll also find there a link to our Facebook group, the Living Rich Lee nation, where you will, find a community of people who are supporting one another, as we go along this journey. So check that stuff out as well.

New Host:
Again, thank you so much for being a part of this episode. Get out there and live your best life, and we’ll see you again next time.