Healing from Toxic Spirituality: What We Carried, What We Left Behind

Healing from Toxic Spirituality: What We Carried, What We Left Behind

Ep122 Toxic Spirituality

All: [00:00:00] She had already decided that she would prefer to just use faith, as as to, to draw the healing. There is surveillance on you,

Tiago: not only in your deeds, but in your thoughts. You cannot escape.

Eric: I thought that’s how life is. It’s transactional. I perform, you give me love, I perform, you give me recognition.

And so the church world it mimicked a lot of that, those dynamics.

All: Faith is so personal. And when you say, I’m I’m stepping away from this, and no longer believe this, people perceive it as an attack on them,

Don: how could I have done some of the things I did in the name of Righteousness?

In the name of goodness, in the name of Caring,

Eric: hi, and welcome to the Living Richly podcast. We’re so glad that you joined us again this week. For what is gonna be probably the most personal conversation that we’ve ever had [00:01:00] on the show around the table, I’ve got literally represented here decades of lived experience within church walls serving.

Helping people suffering, shame, all of it. And we wanna make clear right from the get go. We’re not here to bash spirituality. We’re not here to bash anyone’s beliefs. We’re here to talk about what happens when spirituality gets twisted and how to heal from it. How to hang on to the good and how to let go of the stuff that’s not serving you well.

So gentlemen. Welcome to the show. This is gonna be quite a conversation. We were joking around before that this, I could start the show by saying, two X preachers and three X Church musicians walk into a bar and have a conversation. And that’s really what this is about. Rob and I, of course, you and I go back like forever and are the two x preachers.

Don. I’ve known you like. Probably, it feels like most of my life. And you were part of the church plant back in the day that, that we started together and were my drummer. You were the band drummer for forever.

All: Yep. That’s right.

Eric: Steve you were part of a church [00:02:00] band in the other church that I belong to, we belong to together.

You’re the bass player. And we got the drummer, we got the bass player, and then we got the rockstar guitarist here from Toronto. Came all the way from Toronto, by the way, to be with in studio with us today. It’s true.

Tiago: I have a lot of commitment.

Eric: You learned that in church, did you? Absolutely. And you and I go back to the early two thousands where we met you and a group had come and we’re in my church and we hit it off pretty famously.

And so it’s great to actually have great to have you all here. Gentlemen, let’s start here. What was in a nutshell because again, we have about 45 minutes. So in a nutshell what did Toxic spirituality look like? In your world, talk a little bit about your experience and where you started to recognize it was getting off the rails, and maybe I’ll throw it your way first.

Tiago: Sure. Yeah. I grew up in it, right? So there was no I didn’t have a conversion experience like other people do that arrive at church maybe in their adulthood and then find Jesus. For me it [00:03:00] was, I was indoctrinated into it as a child, so there was no real option for me. To leave the church or to do anything else.

And so I grew up with a lot of questions. I grew up with a lot of internal struggles. It was there, there came a point where it was almost like Santa Claus wasn’t real anymore, and at the same time, neither was Christianity. But I couldn’t say anything about it because the adults in my life. Kept telling me that it was right, and the more questions I had, the more difficult it became.

And so I developed a lot of. Survival mechanisms Yeah. Around all of that. Yeah.

Eric: And let’s face it, like I, I know the church background we all came from Yeah. Questions are not only not encouraged you ask a question and you’re asking for trouble. Absolutely. So the pressure you must have felt was Yeah.

Yeah.

Tiago: And yeah. And so you grew up in this, you get really involved in it because from a survival point [00:04:00] of view, it’s what. Gets you the most response, right? Like you really please your parents by attending church on a regular basis. You end up at a Christian high school. And so following the rules makes sense even though like you’re a bit of a subversive person, you lean into that aspect of authenticity, but at the same time, you can’t help but wonder.

Why you have all of these questions. Yeah. And so it really unraveled for me over time. It was a really long process. I was very devout, very close to theology hungry, wanted to figure out why things were the way that they were. And it wasn’t until I was divorced essentially that I really started to walk away.

Eric: Wow. Wow. And it often takes those big life moments. Donnie, what

Don: about for you? The toxicity term just strikes me because I saw what I was walking into as the farthest thing from toxic, coming from a street life and a [00:05:00] background in addictions and all of that.

I was looking for a safe, what I believe to be healthy environment and, wow. It didn’t take me a whole long time to realize that the skillset I developed on the street for judging people and really understanding like hidden agendas and stuff like that. I just walked into a layer of people that’s what they were all about.

And so the wrestle began early on for me. What have I done? What am I into? Yet there was part of me that was craving what I believed to be goodness, and all these people who were following something that I’d been searching for, and it had been elusive to me my entire life. Yeah. I it just left me rocking and the thing that kept me going was the fact that there was music in this church and, there was a really deep tie.

Yeah. Like a really deep tie. Yeah. And then getting to know some of the people [00:06:00] who are. We’re participating in that the friendships just grew deeper and it, it became about that. But then there’s the conflicting element in all of that, because here I am on a worship team trying to lead people and my life is so messed up.

There’s so much shit going on in my life right now. How can I do this? Like, how can I do it? So it just leaves you in a real space of discomfort.

Eric: And it’s interesting, right? All five of us. We’re involved in what we would say, like front of house work. Absolutely. We were up on the platform, whether it was I did both, I did the singing, I did the worship leading, I did the preaching in time.

I would end up doing less of the more of the latter, less of the former. But that, let’s face it, I know from a young age being pushed to the front of the room long before I was ready in that context, I don’t know if it’s because I my personality, my, my energy, whatever it was.

Pushed into roles I wasn’t ready for. And, would launch a church at 23 years of age where I was the youngest person in the room. With [00:07:00] no leadership training. With no mentoring. I actually still vividly remember the lead pastor of the church that. I belonged to at the time we had spent an afternoon together running errands to prepare for the first, the launch of the new church.

And we sat we took a break at Tim Horton’s and grabbed a coffee and a donut together. And here I am, young kid. I’m with the top dog of the big church. I’m feeling pretty like, whoa, this guy’s pretty good. It’s pretty cool, right? And I remember vividly in the conversation, he turned to me, he says, oh, by the way.

Don’t get used to this ’cause this never happens. And the signal was sent very early on. You’re on your own, figure this shit out. And that’s what I would end up doing, which wasn’t very healthy for me. But Steve, what about for you?

All: For me, I it started early too. Just, baptized as a Catholic boy.

Circumcised, as a Catholic boy. Then I got baptized two more times. I can still speak in tongues, by the way, oh, interesting. So

Eric: we have, we, we can have an offsite about that one later, right? Yeah.

All: Yeah. And and. Same the I [00:08:00] started going to, a bigger church that had a great music program and I started, playing music and really getting involved and getting going deeper and deeper.

And and then but then, I have a scientific side of me as well, with my, with my training and my background. And then I would, I couldn’t put two and two together, like the faith side of things. And then like the engineering, the mechanics of how that that all worked.

But. Again, it was fun. All, the friendships that we developed and the, the involvement having to go multiple times a week and things like that. But community was a thing, let’s face it. Yeah. Community was good. Was a big part of the draw. Yeah. And or something.

Yeah, no, that, and then I thought that at some point I, I became a dad and then I had to, tell them about, what we do and what religion is and what that is. And I couldn’t do that. I couldn’t tell them that they were, they were sinners and they were this and that.

The whole messaging that I received when I was a kid and I believed, and so that, that was, part of the transition, the toxicity that I couldn’t pass on to my children. Yeah, like I, I, for me I started in the church when I [00:09:00] was 16, and very quickly became, I was like the poster child of of kind of the sinner come home.

At the time it was real. Popular was David Wilkerson’s the book I’m blanking on it now. The run with the Devil, I think Run, yeah, the one before Run with the Devil where he is. And and maybe it is that one anyway, where he tells the story, of course, going into Manhattan, into New York and all this stuff.

And, I, here I was, my, dad had been in prison for a bunch of years. My stepdad was a former outlaw biker. So here we were. I had long hair, like the whole thing. And so the church right away was like, oh. There’s the poster and they immediately put me into, I’m, first time I spoke in front of a, in front of a church was, I was 16.

It was like a couple. And all of a sudden here was this kid who had nothing, who was so insecure and had no one that would validate him. Suddenly being told you are like amazing. And and the addiction of the applause and of being the guy at the front. [00:10:00] Carried me. I, so right away from there into bible college, into ministry, and again, every time in, as a pastor, you walk in a room and there was a sense of, oh good.

The pastor’s here now and again, that was an addiction that I hung onto, even though I was struggling with all kinds of doubt all through that journey, you’d never articulate it because you were the guy at the front of the room.

Eric: Yeah and I think that front of the room. Dynamic checked a, I know it checked a lot of boxes for me in terms of affirmation, importance worth, and we see it inside, outside the church. We just had a conversation the last podcast was with three successful businessmen, and they’re not churchgoers, but it’s the same issue. And if it’s striving for worth and affirmation and recognition all their lives, only to find that leaves you feeling pretty hollow.

Tiago: Yeah, absolutely

Eric: right.

Tiago: And even like the aspect of belonging.

Eric: Yeah.

Tiago: It’s, for me, it was huge. Because I’m an immigrant to this country. I moved here from Brazil when I was 10 years old, and I felt like a fish outta water. I felt am I Brazilian? Am I [00:11:00] Canadian? I don’t know. And so there was this sense of belonging that when I started going to church on a regular basis, I belonged to this group.

And there wasn’t, in high school I always felt like I was, trying to belong, say the right things be authentic to a degree. But at the same time, like I read the room, like I, I saw what was getting responses of positivity and of belonging. I got fun, got made fun of a lot as a kid especially before I learned to speak English.

And then as I started to understand the acceptance and how good that felt I leaned into it. And I think for me on the church side, it was exactly the same thing. Yeah. Like I didn’t see it at the time. As to what it was. I thought that there was a lot of authenticity in terms of my belief system and who I was and all those other things.

But at the end of the day, the thing that was really critical to me taking it super seriously was the fact that I felt like I belonged finally. Yeah. I belonged to this thing.

Eric: Yeah.

Tiago: And even to your point it was [00:12:00] nice that I was getting a lot of attention, right? Like not only from you go

Eric: from feeling like I belong to I am needed. I’m wanted. Correct. ‘Cause you’re at the front of the room. Yeah. Yeah.

Tiago: And the attention from girls. Yeah.

Eric: Like

Tiago: when you were at the front and you’re a rockstar figure. Yeah. And you’re in your early teens, mid-teens, late teens. That’s an attention that is very difficult for you to give up that will fuck you over,

All: In every way.

In every way. Absolutely.

Don: How bad can it be right When you hear all this. Stuff in regards to, like the drummers always get the girls, what weight do you think I was living in?

Eric: I dunno. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I think again, we I mean I’ve written about this, I’ve shared the story, but getting really present to even my, just my upbringing, raised by a narcissistic mother a workaholic dad. Everything love for me had to be earned.

And it’s not that I got heavily criticized, but if I wasn’t achieving, I didn’t get noticed. The only time I got noticed and real attention got paid to me is when I was [00:13:00] succeeding. So that created in me this drive. I thought that’s how life is. It’s transactional. I perform. You give me love, I perform.

You give me recognition. And so the church world it mimicked a lot of that, those dynamics in terms of seeing gifts, yes, that I had to influence people and be an encourager. And I was a natural public speaker. Like that never was really hard for me. I had a bit of musical talent not like the rest of you on this table, but a bit of musical talent enough to get by.

And so in that space. Like you become a hot commodity because at least back in the day, we’re talking about the church background we grew up in. We recognize there’s all kinds of other expressions, but the one that we grew up in, it was all about. The show on Sunday morning. And nothing else really mattered.

And so you talk about it just fed this performance piece in me. And it would take years before, I mean it take, it would take two burnouts while I was at the church. It would take a lot of pain. It finally would take my dad passing away in 2008. We were [00:14:00] sharing a story upstairs.

Been for probably three years standing in that pulpit, not believing most of what I say, but like, where do I go? What do I do? Who’s gonna hire some kid who’s never been to college, university, or have any kind of real work experience outside of the church? I got a young family to support. I was depressed, I was burnt out, I was disillusioned.

And then my dad dies and I’m like, life’s too short. And that was my exit which I went from the. A frying pan into the fire for a few years, but thankfully that changed. But I’m curious what was the moment or what was the significant shift where you knew I gotta get out?

Don: In the questionnaire that you’d sent out, you talked about, addressing something that we didn’t think we’d be sharing today.

And I think for me, watching how things were unfolding during the era and we weren’t just going to church in order to attract people to what we believed would be a better [00:15:00] lifestyle for them, we got into this warring era and there were so many things happening and I remember and very uncomfortable.

For me to talk about now, as much as it was then was confronting you in regards to a trip you wanted to attend. And I, I remember saying no. ‘Cause I was part of the board. No, I don’t think that you should be going to that. We’re missing the mark here and I feel strongly enough about this that I’ll resign over this.

And the next words outta your mouth were. I’ll gladly accept that resignation. I don’t even remember that. I’ll gladly accept that resignation. And so I knew right then and there it was time for me to get out. Now it just became a matter of disciplined unraveling and I don’t know how much discipline was actually being applied, to be honest, because like still part of street in me and vindictive and fuck you, like you’re not going to [00:16:00] listen.

This is important. And so all of a sudden something I wanted to address and ease the conversation around and maybe move in a different direction got shut out as quickly as I’d been let in. And so it was that wrestle for me okay, am I the one that’s wrong? Am I the one that’s no good? Am I like, what is this?

Because the other people I was serving on the board with sat there like just silent

All: echo

Eric: chamber. Yeah. Echo chamber. Yeah. That’s what we’ve been raising. Silent. It’s again, it’s interesting. I don’t honestly recall any of that. I’m not surprised that would’ve happened. To hear you describe it, it sounds like you’re describing another human now.

‘Cause I, that would be the last aver of me that would show up today.

Don: Understand. Yeah. Like I was talking to a different human then. Yeah. I was talking to somebody who’d been groomed. That was one of the biggest challenges for me and why I talked about doing something like this, like a while back.

So many people are trapped in that they don’t realize. You don’t know. You’re being groomed. When you’re being [00:17:00] groomed. Yeah. And here I was watching all of this unfold with the sensitivity that the street delivers to you in understanding and just a awareness and watching you fall prey to that, not knowing how to address it with the people who were doing it.

And here you were. My pastor. At the same time. So yeah, complexity.

Eric: Yeah. There’s no complicated dynamics here, right? Not at all. Wow. What about for you? What was

All: that moment? The there wasn’t a specific moment per se. It was a gradual, questioning and seeing things that had happened.

But I can speak about one of the moments. I remember I, at some point, I would, they needed somebody, some to help counting the tithes, at our church. Oh, yes. And I was in that room where I had never been before and everybody’s like counting the envelopes and compiling, different the cash money, the coins and the checks and all that and all that stuff.

And I thought I was dehumanizing all those people that were giving, probably some of them giving like a lot of what they could use at home and something that needed. So [00:18:00] that was one of the moments that for me, that I remember that was part of Wow. Okay. I never, yeah, that’s, it was an eye-opener for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. That whole tie thing, it’s fascinating,

Eric: right? They measured success back in the day, success was measured by the size of the budget. Yep. And how many butts were in seats on Sunday morning? Not in transformation, not in changed lives, not in people being healed and whole.

Yeah. We were counting all, measuring all the wrong things. What was that turning point for you?

Tiago: It’s interesting that you mentioned this because for me. I was in my mid to late teens, and I had a lot of doubts, a lot of questions. There were a lot of things that absolutely didn’t make sense for a long period of time.

But I went to a church that the Prosperity Gospel was front and center. And we would have guys like Jesse Duplantis, Jerry Ve Kenneth Copeland, like these guys would come to our church. Wow. Yep. And they would have part of their crusade stops were at our church. And I remember just not connecting with any of that at [00:19:00] all.

None of that resonated with me at all. Felt completely disingenuous, greedy as hell. The entire thing just left me feeling horrific about it. But as time went on, I realized, and as I spoke to some of these guys, like I spoke to them, I spoke to my pastors and I realized it. This was a, not a get rich quick scheme, but this is, how do you, it was a business model that got applied to the whole thing.

Like, how do you grow financially in your church? How do you get more people to your church? You get one of these prosperity gospel guys to come in, have a meeting, and not only are your tithes gonna go up because they’re gonna be feared, people are gonna be feared into giving because the only way that they can give.

The only way that they can receive from God is if they give of an abundant heart. Yeah. Yeah. And there are gonna be new people coming in. And so I would imagine that in the brochures and in the conversations that Jerry Ve and Jesse Duplantis and these guys would have with other churches, they’d be like, [00:20:00] here are the benefits to having us here.

You’re gonna have more people.

All: Yeah,

Tiago: you’re gonna have more money.

And this is gonna be an absolute investment that you’re making into your ministry. So the disingenuous and disgusting component of that

All: Yeah.

Tiago: Was something that, because like when you’re in leadership, you see how the sausage is made.

Yeah. You listen to the conversations that other people don’t generally have on a regular basis. Yeah. And then when you start to see that, you go, oh fuck, this isn’t what I thought it was at all.

Eric: Like it’s, there’s a, it’s a mirror image. Yeah. As you were talking, I couldn’t help but think the Roman Catholic indulgences that were sold back in the day when Mar Martin Luther would rise up and rail against that of these practices to milk the populace outta money at the time to build St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome. That’s why they did that. So there’s, yeah. Fascinating. What was the pivotal point for you? I know your story, but not everyone around the table does.

All: There. I mean there was obviously like all of us, there were a number of them, but for me it was definitely, one was launching the [00:21:00] bikers church.

I love how you talked about, the, your street wise and this, the, this, we, this wonderful community that embraces you also becomes a bubble. And you start to believe that because in for most people in the evangelical church, their only friends or connections are with people in their church.

They lose touch with the rest. And so you be the rest of the world. So you begin to think this is all there is. And when we launch bikers church and all of a sudden I was back spending time with. Hell’s Angels and Outlaws and street workers and addicts, and you were seeing a whole part of the world that wasn’t being impacted by the church at all.

Now, in my mind, at that point, I’ll impact them more, but it was it, the specific time would’ve been when I did my road trip in 2008 in the fall of 2008, because I had it off on this motorcycle trip for three weeks alone. Rode across the United States and interacted with so many amazing people who continue to be friends of mine [00:22:00] today.

Not one of them, part of a church. And I opened my eyes to realize, one, this we’re gonna change the world mentality in the church wasn’t working right because most of the church, we were irrelevant in 2008 and probably more I know more so today. But all of a sudden I start a lot of people that I thought.

This guy’s going to hell just because he doesn’t believe what I believe. ’cause man, he’s a pretty good guy. Yeah. And so that whole thing, and I remember I had made the decision then to end my marriage, but also to leave the church took me another five years of fear and trepidation to do it. And it was a conversation with you where I said, okay I’m doing it now.

I need your help. But it took five years for me to actually be willing to say, to speak up. But I knew 2008 that was

Eric: happening. Yeah. I’m curious, like again, all of us have our there’s similar themes here, right? I think all of us have felt the the joy of feeling like we belong to this community, that we’re part of something [00:23:00] bigger.

We have felt the exhilaration of watching an entire congregation. Connect with what back then we would’ve said connect with God. And at least my language has changed around that. But we have felt some of those highlight moments, right? That, that were pretty powerful. And I know I can look back and know that I’ve had experiences during that season in my life that defy logic, they defy understanding.

Now I think when you have a framework that’s been powerfully implanted into you. That’s how you interpret everything that happens. I only had one way of looking at it then, and now I, I can explain some things very differently. But we all experience a measure also of the dark side, the control, the shame the silence.

The inability to express yourself. Like you gotta, you got a toe, the party line kind of thing. I’m curious, as you guys made the shift and and left whether that was an abrupt departure or a gradual one, where did you pay the biggest price? What did it [00:24:00] cost you leaving? What did it cost you?

All: Almost everything for me.

And when I know for when I left the number of faith is so personal. And when you say, I’m I’m stepping away from this, and no longer believe this, people perceive it as an attack on them. And for me it was incredibly nasty. The response, this community that embraced me suddenly hated is not a strong enough word for what I got.

And it continues to this day. We you remember it was less than a year ago. Yeah. That I got an, another anonymous email was sent to the Rhapsody account. Another courageous. Anonymous email, another courage, right? Telling me how horrible a human being I am because and so it continued, but it was to the point that I remember standing on the balcony of I was in a single apartment after I’d, all of this had happened looking down from the 21st floor, literally thinking the best thing I could do right now is jump.

And it was ’cause I had lost everything I had with the [00:25:00] exception of maybe one or two people from that world, maybe four or five people from that world that stayed friends to me and are friends to this day, that the entire world turned their back on me. Yeah. I can relate to that. Yeah.

Eric: Yeah.

You guys, what was the cost?

Tiago: I think on my end? It, I mean my if I’m honest, like my marriage would’ve ended regardless.

I think it’s important for the context. Like I, I got married to somebody who I had met when I was in church, was really young. How old were you when you got married?

I was 24.

Eric: 24.

Tiago: She was 21. We had met when I was 16 years old. So you do the math like she was. Pretty young. We weren’t dating immediately, but as we became friends, we didn’t go to the same school. So our age difference wasn’t a thing super significant at the time. But when you grow up in this church thing together and you are the main worship leader at your youth group of, like we, because I went to essentially what would be called the mega church.

All: Yeah.

Tiago: And it was a really big youth group. We did a lot [00:26:00] of things. Being the main worship leader at this place meant something at least it meant something to me at the time. And she,

Eric: no, that, that was a position of stature if you were like it Sure. It sure was. It sure was. To everybody. That would’ve been a position of stature.

Yeah. Yeah.

Tiago: And my ex-wife, she was like the assistant to my youth pastor. And so we did a lot of things together. So it made sense for us to grow up and be together and then get married eventually. One of the things that ended up happening was and fuck if people don’t know this by now, they’re gonna know like we were sleeping together.

Before marriage. Oh, what? Whoa, wait.

No. We were what? Show over this one. Yeah.

All: Yeah.

Eric: Steve, I need you to fix that in post.

Tiago: So Yeah, but that’s exactly it. So like we were having premarital sex and I felt really guilty about,

Eric: it’s so funny to hear that term

All: now.

Eric: I know.

All: Honestly, I, isn’t it crazy? And, it’s so normal in that language.

You would never like premar,

Tiago: like premarital postal we were having pre postmarital. And, but, and this [00:27:00] is the other side of it too, is that like we, we were there in the heyday of purity culture. Yeah. Yeah. The flags on Washington Mall. Yeah. Like I kiss dating, goodbye. What was the other one that, what was I dunno.

There was another book that we were reading at the time that, I can’t think of the title right now. But so we were in this environment where purity was of utmost importance. My feelings of guilt around my own sexuality, my own expression, right? I. God was watching me at all times. Remember, so this is I was 12 years old and I was, I always

All: wanted to ask, can I get a 24 hour pass, just 24

Tiago: hours?

All: God. Close your eyes for close your eyes. I don’t need long.

Tiago: I don’t need long. I don’t need long Daddy God,

All: but like a

Tiago: true man. But, so here’s the thing. I remember this I was 12 years old.

I was jerking off in the bathroom and my dad, for whatever reason probably heard me jerking off [00:28:00] in the bathroom. Oh no. Yeah. And then he decided to have a conversation with me about it afterward, and he was like, listen, not through the door. Not through the door. The door, not through the door, but it was afterward.

Like I had already cleaned up and everything. And so I am in my room. My dad sits down beside me and he’s listen, like I, I wanna have a conversation with you and listen, like my dad, well-meaning guy loved the dude. But he basically in that conversation told me look, listen. Jesus is watching you at all times.

So the message was, oh my God, that you have constant surveillance. And this was like the, this was really the idea of Christianity for me. Yeah. Yeah. This is how I grew up. Like I was a child growing up in this.

All: Yeah.

Tiago: And you are 100% of the time. There is surveillance on you, not only in your deeds, but in your thoughts.

You, you cannot escape this reality. Yeah. This is all over you at all times. So when you get to a point where you are having sex with your girlfriend, you’re also the worship leader at your church. The stakes are high.

All: Yeah.

Tiago: And I [00:29:00] started to feel like I, I wanted to do this right. And whether there was love in it or not, you guys decide, I know that there was love at some point, but it wasn’t what I really wanted it to be.

It wasn’t what it should have been.

Eric: It’s getting married or I’m gonna go to hell. Or I’m gonna get found out. Yeah. And

Tiago: because I was really devout. I was keen, I was sincere and. In the midst of like my humanity, I thought at some point I, I need to make this right because the Apostle Paul talks about it’s better for a man to marry than to burn with passion.

And so I thought, that this was the right thing for me to do. Yeah. Was to go down this particular path.

Eric: Yeah.

I think you’ve just described the story of every young person growing up in the church who end up getting married probably to the wrong person. Because again, guilt and shame is being dealt out in spades and it doesn’t even have to come from the front.

Although there’s an awful lot of that comes from the front of the room too. Yep. There’s nothing like guilt and shame to keep people in line. And that’s, you’re part of a toxic environment if that’s being used. And so one thing to [00:30:00] watch for, but to your point, like if you are keen, like I was the same.

I the story that impacted me the most my, the hero for me in the Bible was always David. Why? Because he was described as a man after God’s own heart. I always said, I wanna be that right. He was flawed. He made a lot of mistakes, but I also loved the Warrior Poet combo there. That was pretty cool.

He is like a, he’s a fighter. He’s a lover. He is a, he’s a poet. Also

Tiago: an underdog.

Eric: An underdog, right? Like serious underdog, right? Yeah. And all the stories. So I always related to that. And so here you are wanting to be. Do the right thing and be that holy person, but it was an unattainable goal. To your point, I love you talk about never looked at a surveillance.

It’s like I spy in, right? Like you’re, you can’t escape your own thoughts. And so for me, the. The stories I told ’em about my upbringing and having to earn love and having to prove myself. And I think I said it to you guys upstairs, this before we came down to start recording like the shame developed for me into deep self-loathing.

To the point where for the last several years that I’m standing from the front of the [00:31:00] room trying to give people hope. I had lost any kind of hope for myself that I fundamentally believed that I was an aberration and that. Forgiveness, grace, mercy. Yeah, I believed in it. It applied to everyone else, but not me, so maybe if I do enough good.

Maybe if I do enough good, I’ll be able to balance the ledger in my favor, but it’s not looking good. And that’s how I live my life. So when I tell people, like I, they say deep self-loathing, that’s a strong statement. I said, yeah, it’s probably not strong enough. ’cause when I looked in the mirror, I did not like what I saw back.

I saw just a flawed human who couldn’t get a shit together.

Don: See I love the fact that you used David as an example that helped you. I didn’t murder anybody. No. Yet, but here yet. Yeah. But here, from my perspective, because, yeah, because I leveraged David’s story as well, but for much different reasons.

I viewed it as. So it came [00:32:00] to pass that David sinned no more, and that allowed me to continue dabbling in the darkness and messing around and not really serious about my salvation because I didn’t know that it was possible for someone like me to really experience that. And if it was I willing to give up?

Everything that had gotten me to where I was. So that here I would be later on in life a fledgling like with no protection. Yeah, with nothing. And so lived on that side of everything that, oh, if I continue to just be obedient, if I continue to just do things, my marriage falling apart and getting counsel from people no, you’ve gotta, hang on, you’ve gotta do this, you’ve gotta do that.

In recovery, getting healthier and healthier. My ex-wife just spiraling, downhill. Yeah. Not willing to do [00:33:00] any of her own work. The deep empath in me wanting wellness for everybody on the face of this planet more than they wanted for themselves in most cases. Remember how you went through back then? Yeah.

Driving what I believe to be was worth, and value that I was at least providing. Portions of this Earth with, and you talk about what did it cost me? I view all of that from a much different lens. It was like when I did decide to leave, I started getting everything back because if that didn’t work for me, I started to really be.

Put into a position where I had to figure things out for myself. And so I started doing that kind of work. I started doing deep emotional work. I started, stepping up and being responsible, like accepting the flaws, accepting the brokenness, and doing things about that so I could shore up on those fronts.

Because if I was to be equipped to provide any, with anybody with anything, I had to [00:34:00] do that work first. Yeah. A hundred percent. Hundred percent. And I don’t view me leaving, to look at that and say, what did it cost me? Because it seems from the point I left, that’s when my life really began to unfold and I began to experience some of the fruit that the church claimed to be able to provide me with, but fell short on every front.

Yeah,

Eric: it’s, just as you’re telling the story, and I remember those days, Donnie, I remember what you went through and I wasn’t living it. I was observing. You go through it and you think that an institution. That was formed around. An individual who came to this planet to bring healing. And in that situation it was more important that dogma be upheld than healing take place, right?

No, stay in that marriage. You can’t divorce no matter if it costs you your soul, right? That’s what matters. And that’s again. When we’re talking about toxic versions of spirituality, that’s what we mean when it gets twisted it can be so damaging to people. [00:35:00] We’re gonna shift gears in a moment, but I’m curious, what about you?

Yeah. What did it cost

All: you? For me, that’s a bit of a long story, but the, I’m gonna share quickly here for you guys. Some, most of most of the guys here know that my wife passed away from cancer in 2016. And but. The story behind that was pretty challenging and quickly in the way that I can say it now, it’s been it’s been more than nine years now, but it was very challenging to witness or find out, that, we’re both in a church.

We, we met at the church too, at a play that we, you know the four of us were in. Yeah. And she had, she got a diagnosis of breast cancer. And normally, what we do is we go and we follow the doctor’s advice and this medicine available, the best that, that we’ve got.

And, but she had already decided that she would prefer to just use faith, as as to, to draw the healing from heaven, to prove that, how glorious God was. I’m paraphrasing her words. And so as the cost to me [00:36:00] there’s a certain cost as ’cause was I happily married, and had three, very young children and, but the cost was to my children, that, that faith.

She had which is in a way honorable, when you’re in the, in the church, you’re, we were told, without faith, we can’t please God. And things that, and she took it really literally. And when when the time came to to have to make a big decision, then she decided to.

Choose God rather than her family in a way, it wasn’t directly like that, but in, in her mind, she hoped that was all, everything she had learned was true. And so yeah. So there was a, that was a big cost, brother. I can’t,

Eric: I knew you had lost your wife many years ago.

I didn’t know that part of the story. And I can’t. I can’t even fathom. Yeah. The pain and the turmoil, something like that would cause you wow.

Tiago: Oh, and the rabbit holes that, that sends you down. Yeah. Yeah. ’cause I think one of the things that, that for me was toxic about Christianity.

And I didn’t really [00:37:00] understand this until much later. Because when you grow up in it again, like it’s just told to you as this is truth. This is the world. Yeah. This is truth. And so I think the thing that really bothered me was the fact that Christianity or Evangelicalism, or however you want to describe it, owned truth.

They owned, like the scriptures were the infallible word of God. So every single word was inspired by a deity. By, the trinity. Hard to argue with that. When the construct becomes that strong yeah. When it’s like we own truth. Yes. Everything else, everyone else is a lie.

Everything.

All: Yeah.

Tiago: If it sounds a little bit like this but isn’t exactly like this Yeah. Then it’s a lie. It’s a deception from the enemy. And so you get this like good versus evil situation. And that to me was really how it all broke down. Yeah. Because the ownership of truth. Is the part to me that today like even like when Christians are gonna listen to this podcast [00:38:00] they’re gonna have their own opinions about the fact that none of this matters. You guys are all sentimental about whatever the fuck it is that you guys are sentimental about. Yeah. But at the end of the day, the truth is that Jesus died for you on the cross.

All: Yeah.

Tiago: Because you were born into a world of sin.

All: Yeah.

Tiago: And then you needed his sacrifice on the cross. And the only way that you get. To go to heaven with him is if you believe that he’s the son of God and that he died for you. Yeah. And so when you tell someone that you’re like, listen, like I’m just not convinced that’s true.

That is not convincing to me based on everything else I’ve seen. Then I can only imagine, like your wife makes this decision to go down this particular path.

All: Yeah.

Tiago: And there is such a subjectivity to whether or not this is true.

All: Yeah.

Tiago: And then when it doesn’t met. The reality that you’re expecting.

Then somebody of the faith will be like listen, like God works in mysterious ways.

All: Or and it’s interesting when you share that it’s a mystery because when you share that story, I remember, and it didn’t, thank God this didn’t happen directly to me. It went through my, it was filtered [00:39:00] through my sister.

But when my daughter died one of the key people in the church said to her, if only they had more faith. Yeah. And so it was the opposite. It’s either while God works in mysterious ways or maybe you just, if only she had more faith brother. And so destructive. It’s, and it’s, but it’s because they’re wrapped up in that truth.

It, you said I don’t know if I believe that. What would be the response? It doesn’t matter what you think. Yeah.

Don: I think it’s wrapped up in that story. Yeah. Not the truth. No, that’s right. Yes. That’s you for difference. Yeah, you’re right. And I think everybody around this table can sum up everything they’ve experienced in the two words you just uttered to Steve when you shared his story.

I can’t, yeah. I can’t. You know when you step away from something and you really invite clarity into the situation. That’s such an uncomfortable fucking feeling to [00:40:00] experience because how could I have been so duped? How could I have done some of the things I did in the name of righteousness, in the name of goodness, in the name of caring, everything that I stepped into this environment looking for?

Is absent. Yeah. Yeah. I can’t,

Tiago: it’s really conflicting to be in those environments like time and time again. And even now, like we’re in a time in history where like Christianity and politics are so wrapped up together and the, again, more ever. When we were, when we started talking about this, it’s like there’s so many different rabbit holes we can go down.

Yeah. When it comes to this sort of thing. But one of the things to me that makes this relate this particular conversation so relevant is the fact that we now have governmental systems that operate based on this weird truth that isn’t. True. Or at least it’s subjective, right? Like I don’t claim to know what’s true or what isn’t true necessarily.

But there are certain people that [00:41:00] do, and when they claim that to be true and that there is no other way to interpret this, and you create a governmental system around this, it just goes back to the Council of Nicea and what this was all about at the beginning. Yeah. Which was politics. Politics, right?

Jesus was a political figure.

All: Yep.

Tiago: Who. Did what he did to upend the politics of the day. He, he was an instigator.

All: Yeah.

Tiago: And the fact that we don’t see the parallels of this anymore and we’re blinded by this weird Christianity that exists the way that it does today. Yeah. It is just mind blowing to me.

Don: It’s interesting you use that because I’m smiling and embracing the fact that I feel more like Jesus now because I’m a shit disturber. An instigator. That’s right. A lot of, I’m a big, yeah.

All: Yeah. I’m a big fan of the first century.

Eric: Jesus. Big fan,

All: I

Eric: think is great. I tell people all the time, I said, so I don’t I’m at a place personally, I don’t know if Jesus was an actual thing.

Like I don’t know [00:42:00] if that’s a story that was told, but I said, listen, you will do really well if you read the Bible. Just read the red words and ignore everything else. And you’ll do okay. There’s a lot of wisdom in those red words, regardless of what you believe around the story that I don’t care who wrote it.

There’s just a lot of wisdom there. Gentlemen, we’re quickly running outta time and that’s unfortunate. ’cause I hope we can have a follow up to this. I’m curious, and let’s do this more rapid fire round here. What’s one truth or principle that still holds true for you today from those days?

And what’s one you’ve had? Like a significant one you’ve had to lay down. So what’s a significant principle you’re still hanging onto that’s still meaningful to you and one that you’ve really had to.

Don: Throw to the curb. For me, it’s easy. Grace is one that I hang on and judgment is one that I let go of.

Nice. Love that. Love that.

All: Geez. Mic drop there. You can’t talk over. So that’s, and we’re done. We’re [00:43:00] done.

Tiago: What about for you? I think for me it’s the idea that do unto others. I think when, one of my principles as a dad is to, if there’s anything that’s ever in doubt, if my kids have some sort of decision to make what’s the thing that’s gonna serve everybody else the best or what do you wish would be done to you?

In this situation. And so that’s like what you do to other people. Yeah. I think that’s an excellent way to, to continue to live your life.

Eric: Yeah.

Tiago: And judgment to your point, like I think is the same thing. It’s like you’ve never, you don’t know anyone until you walk a mile in their shoes.

Yeah. You have no idea what’s really happening in their lives and for you to make some sort of judgment based on their actions, based on their reactions. Fuck, like all. If any of us are trying to do is survive.

Eric: Yeah.

Tiago: All any of us are trying to do is survive. I know I’ve made so many mistakes.

Because I’ve been trying to survive.

Eric: Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent.

All: For me, the thing that I keep is that we’re all interconnected. All humans [00:44:00] and, are we share this life that we have with, even with animals, with nature, with the cosmos. We’re all connected.

I think that’s a beautiful thing that I keep. And I that’s what grounds me the most. And the thing that I go to yeah. Judging others, their journeys, they’re, they’re allowed to have the journey that they want as long as they don’t hurt others. Yeah. Have the best journey you’re gonna have, and enjoy it.

Yeah. It’s very short. Love that. Yeah, brother. Yeah for sure. Grace. Grace and compassion are things that I. Certainly still would embrace, and and I think, go back to what you were just saying a few minutes ago, and that’s just around this night idea that truth is absolute right. This I relish the freedom of recognizing that.

I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. That’s powerful, right? So lean into the mystery. My God. It’s I don’t.

Eric: I

All: don’t, it is so liberating, man. It is so free.

Eric: You think, again we talk often or laced in, in church talk, you know that God can’t be understood that he’s beyond description, he’s beyond understanding.

And yet modern day Christianity is all about putting him or whatever in a box. Yeah. And [00:45:00] breaking it all down into a formula and. You literally squeeze the mystery right out of it. Yes, true. For me, I think what I hold onto everything you guys said always leave people better than you found them.

Tiago: Yeah.

Eric: Always be. So that sense, big time, that sense of impact and love and nurture and give people your time and energy like that continues to be part of who I am. The absolute truth piece, definitely the one of the strongest. I’m a firm believer now that actually you can find truth anywhere if you’re looking.

That truth can be found anywhere. It’s not just found in one spot. Final question, gentlemen. Someone’s listening to this. They’re on the brink. Maybe they’re still stuck, but they know something’s not right. What do you say? What’s your advice?

Don: I’d say if any of this resonated with you and has raised any form of uncomfortable question in your soul, in your mind, in your heart, everybody’s contact information is going to be somewhere in the notes of this.

Get ahold of whoever you resonate with and let’s have coffee. Love it. [00:46:00]

All: Yeah, I just, I would just give them Don’s number. Don’s gonna be busy. Talk to Don.

Eric: Yeah. Talk to Don. Hashtag

Tiago: talk to Don. That’s it. Yeah. I would say stay curious, know. I think we live in a time in history now where information is available to us in ways that they haven’t been ever before.

And it’s so easy to get information. It’s also easy to get misinformation, of course. However I think people are discerning and they can get the information that they need that is accurate from good sources. Whereas, back in the day there were ministers that held on to that information and so you needed to go to someone Yeah.

To find something out if you really wanted to. Today, that’s not the case. Yeah. So I think for me it’s stay curious. Ask all of the most difficult questions that you can. Never shy away from a crunchy conversation with someone that you feel like you’re gonna make somebody uncomfortable. At the end of the day, life is a series of discomforts, and how we deal with those [00:47:00] discomforts is essentially how we’re going to be able to succeed in life.

I

All: love that. I love that. ’cause I think, and I would just echo that you, I if the faith or the belief that you hold to is so bulletproof. It’s okay to fire some bullets at it. Yeah. It won’t shatter it, but if it shatters it. Maybe it wasn’t so bulletproof in the first place.

A hundred percent. So let that curiosity be the bullets that you fire.

Tiago: Yeah.

Eric: Wow. So if you’re listening, watching this episode, whether you’ve been wounded by religion or just questioning where you stand now there’s space for you here. You’re not crazy, you’re not weak, and you’re definitely not alone.

Healing doesn’t mean you have to burn it all down, but you do get to stop pretending and get real with yourself and what matters to you. So thank you for tuning in. Guys, this has been so rich. I feel we could probably go for hours on the subject and so we’ll definitely have to do this again. We encourage you if this show really meant something to you, share it with someone.

Who needs to hear it. Make sure to visit our [00:48:00] website@livingrichly.me, where you can get all the show transcripts and you can sign up for the 15 Day Life Vision Challenge and also our exclusive Facebook group which is made up of people on a similar journey, just trying to live their best life and reach their full potential.

So until we see you next time, get out there and live that best life.