From Shame to Power: Women Owning Every Emotion

E124 From Shame to Power Women Owning Every Emotion

[00:00:00]

Opening Discussion on Women’s Emotions

Wendy: Why can’t you just use your big girl words? Yeah. Why couldn’t you have just communicated and, and then the anger from not protecting my boundaries then spills into all of the things I did done wrong.

Kate: What are you angry about? Like why has this got you so riled up? Mm-hmm. And then really start to uncover and peel back the layers of the onion and figure out what’s going on.

Wendy: So I think it’s important for our kids to recognize like who you’ve got in your life

Both: Yeah.

Wendy: Matters as well. And keep showing up as authentically you. And if people don’t like it,

Kate: yeah.

Wendy: Those aren’t your people,

Kate: and it turns out in fact that not only are you doing everything wrong, but also everything is your fault.

Introduction to Living Richly Podcast

Kate: Welcome to the Living Richly podcast. Today we’re talking about from shame to power, and women owning all of their emotions. We’re super excited for this one. This is the latest podcast in this series. That Wendy and I do called Real Women Real Talk, so thanks [00:01:00] for joining us today.

Eric: Let’s be real. You didn’t start your business to feel this stressed, this stuck, and this alone.

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Wendy: think we’ll get some real talk outta this one.

Kate: Ah, I always love our episodes. Yes, they

Wendy: are great. They’re great. And

Why Women Apologize for Their Emotions

Kate: today it’s a big one. So we’re really talking about how women, stereotypically, when we feel an emotion, whether we’re sad, happy, mad, assertive.

Put that one out there. Yeah. That we have this tendency to apologize for feeling, which when you think about it at its core is maybe such like a pretty ridiculous statement, [00:02:00] but it’s true. Yeah. We so often will, oh sorry, I was crying or sorry about this. Right. So let’s dive in. Why do you think women.

Apologize, like why do you think we’re saying sorry?

Wendy: Yeah, so, so much of it I think comes from that social conditioning and that upbringing and it almost becomes ingrained in, um, who we are. And for a lot of us, we grow up being. Sometimes told, but sometimes we put that expectations on ourselves that we’re just too much.

Um, and, and that could be a whole wide variety of motions, whether it’s, you know, to your point, like anger, um, you know, if we’re crying, we’re too dramatic. If we’re quiet, we’re not sharing our feelings. Yep. And so I think a lot of it is just, you know, years and years and years of that social conditioning.

Kate: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. I think we just, like women are supposed to, to sit right in the middle. Yep. We can’t be too high, we can’t be too low. We have to sort of play to the norm that so society’s put out. Yeah. And, and, [00:03:00] and until women challenge that and until we change that, that is something that a lot of women feel pressure on showing up.

The Reflex of Saying Sorry

Kate: Just, yeah. So it’s like a reflex.

Wendy: It’s like automatically. Yeah. And I catch myself like automatically, even before somebody has finished their sentence, we’re already thinking about saying, I’m sorry.

Kate: Yeah. You’re just like you. You innately feel bad. Yes. We talk about this is from shame to power, but there’s shame there somewhere deep down as you feel bad, embarrassed, whatever that is about showing emotion.

Yeah. Externally. Yep. Yeah. You think about It’s so crazy, eh, that we’re, that we experience that and we want, and it’s not just women, but women, yeah. Do tend towards the apologizing

Wendy: part. Yes. And it’s almost when you get to, like, I know for me right now, being in my late forties. Late forties, you’re even more aware of it, because then as parents, like, we [00:04:00] have teenagers.

Yes. Yeah. Uh, you’re even more conscious of, like, I, I see my girls doing this a lot too. Uh, just always starting off by saying, oh, I’m sorry. Um, the other day my, you know, my daughter’s like, oh, sorry mom, I didn’t text you back right away. I was in class. I’m like, you never have to apologize for that.

Kate: It’s so, uh, Eric and I often say.

Um, just ’cause I’m super mindful of my stories, but he is like sorry’s for when you did something wrong. Yeah. And, and we, it’s so funny. I was in my office working and I could hear Eric talking to my daughter who must have done something or wiped the counter weird or something, and she said, oh, sorry. And I could hear Eric in the kitchen.

He is like, you don’t have to apologize for that. I was like, yes. Yeah, I love it. I love it. Yeah. I like that. That’s a win. Yep. So it shows up. For us. Yep. When’s the last time you kind of saw yourself maybe like, shrinking back or, or doing exactly what we just talked about? Apologizing for feeling or showing emotion.

Personal Stories of Emotional Expression

Wendy: Yeah. I think, um, I still. Being on the journey of [00:05:00] being, um, unapologetic. Uh, I still struggle with this, not just in my professional life, but in my personal life. So as a divorced mom, I find I shrink back and either apologize for. I, you know, if, if my girls are like, hey, like, we’re, we’re gonna come over this weekend.

Yeah, I find ’em. I’m already apologizing. If I already have plans, I’m already apologizing. Um, you know, to not be seen as like the strict parent. Um, so. So get that. Yeah. And it, it makes me like, it makes me angry. Mm. It makes me really upset with myself that I feel like I’m shrinking back because it’s something that I’m working hard to struggle with, or it’s to not struggle with.

Thank you. Yeah. I get it. Um, sorry I messed that up

Kate: there.

Wendy: It’s, but I would say it shows up a lot. Um. In that for me, like just shrinking back and just feeling like I almost need to not, I guess, [00:06:00] overcompensate, um, in some ways and apologizing for not.

Kate: Yeah. It’s funny, like we did, I, we did a whole episode on like apologizing and saying I’m sorry and what that looks like.

Yeah. Um, I know for me it’s like, uh, it shows up all the time and it’s more about. Showing emotion I was raised is just not okay, good, bad, whatever. Just being quiet and like that was the role. And so for me, when I feel the emotion coming up, instead of being able to release it in front of whoever’s around at the time, I feel the need to.

To flight. I am like, I am out the door. Yeah. I’m like, see, I’m very uncomfortable in this moment. And I go, yeah. And then I can take, sometimes it’s 10 minutes, sometimes it’s five. I just need a minute to like gather myself and come back. And what I’d love to be able to do is not take, there are times you need a minute ’cause you’re heated.

But I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about like I’m overwhelmed with love. Yeah. It’s too much. I need to leave the room, compose [00:07:00] myself, and then come back in. I would love to stop going in the other room. Yeah, like I would love to be able to have that moment in front of my people. Yeah. That’s like my ultimate goal.

Yeah.

Wendy: I’m still in the back, but I also love that you do that though, because I think sometimes we feel like there’s a rush where we always have to respond. We always have to react, so I kind of love that you. Do take a step back because I don’t do a great job of that. And then all of a sudden my feelings and my emotions are all blah and they all come out.

Then I’m mad at myself ’cause I didn’t take that time to No. Interesting. Yeah. So I love, I love that you shared that.

Kate: Yeah. I think for me it’s situational. So if I’m like angry Yeah. I wanna, I don’t wanna say something I’m gonna regret. ’cause I feel like in the heat of the moment Yeah. A lot of things come out that, or they come out sideways.

Right? Yes. Just ’cause we’re in it. Yeah. For me it’s often, and I, it’s more the. It’s the joy side. I know that sounds crazy, but when like things are good or I get emotional, I’m crying ’cause it’s, my daughter just turned 15, which I can’t believe she’s my youngest. I know, baby. [00:08:00] See that’s an emotion. Yeah. So like, but those are the emotions that I will claw back.

So it’s not always like the sad sometimes it’s just that Yeah. Joy that we also hold back. Yes. Yes. Okay. So why do you think women feel that pressure? Versus men

Gender Differences in Emotional Expression

Wendy: specifically. I think there’s a myth around, um, women are always the ones that are too emotional. Mm-hmm. Right? That’s what you kind of said earlier.

And I feel like the truth is we’re often the ones that just get shamed for showing it.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Wendy: Um, and, and sometimes that shame for showing it doesn’t necessarily come out in a bad way. That could be how we’re taking it as well. Not that we take anything personal ever, but sometimes the, the. Um, I guess that the, the.

Feeling could be women are too emotional. Mm-hmm. But men are rational. Well, but you can be rational and emotional at the

Kate: same time. Yeah. Yeah. And, and men [00:09:00] feel emotions. They’re also taught to squash all of them, so it’s Yes. Right. And the labeling Exactly.

Wendy: And the labeling of being dramatic.

Kate: Yeah. Um,

Wendy: if we are.

Yeah. You know, sharing those emotions and those feelings. Yeah.

Kate: It’s, it’s interesting ’cause like men are allowed to have a loud voice and they’re allowed to be Yes. The loud voice in the room. Yep. In front of the room. And that’s acceptable. But women does that, they’re tended to seem, they’re aggressive, they’re not assertive.

Yeah. But if a man has an emotion and is crying, like our society kind of shits all over that, where you’re like, well you’re, you’re weak. You’re not like, and so it is interesting that sort of, that difference. Yep. Um. I wanna read something. So, uh, Barbie, the movie, which is not a movie I honestly wanted to see, and then I saw it.

Me neither. I didn’t, I didn’t like Barbie’s story. I didn’t, no. Oh. I just apologize for not liking Barbies. Let’s just call that out. I’m not sorry. I didn’t like Barbies. I didn’t relate to Barbies as a kid. I had Legos and like toy soldiers. That was like my playground. Um, but I finally saw [00:10:00] the movie and today for those of you, uh, watching, you can see I’m actually in bright Barbie pink today.

And your

Wendy: nails are pink too, too. And I have pink, so I

Kate: am like, I am just all about Barbie today. But that movie, when I saw it. Was just, it was a very, they did such a great job just kind of flipping the script on women empowerment and um, so I wanna read from that. There’s a monologue that America Ferrera does, and I’m not gonna do her character justice ’cause she reads it so beautifully.

The Barbie Monologue on Women’s Expectations

Kate: I teared up watching it, it was so strong. I think it’s just so many women relate to this feeling of like, you have to be a specific way or live a specific way according to society, right? And what we’re supposed to live up to. So I’m gonna read it so bear with me. You have to be thin, but not too thin. And you can never say you wanna be thin.

You have to say you wanna be healthy. Also, you have to be thin, you have to have money, but you can’t ask for money because that’s crass. You have to be a boss, but you can’t be mean. [00:11:00] You have to lead, but you can’t squash other people’s ideas. You’re supposed to love being a mother, but don’t talk about your kids all of the damn time.

You have to be a career woman, but always be looking out for other people. You have to answer for men’s bad behavior, which is insane, but if you point that out, you’re accused of complaining. You’re supposed to stay pretty for men, but not so pretty that you tempt them too much or that you threaten other women because you’re supposed to be part of the sisterhood.

But always stand out and always be grateful, but never forget that the system is rigged. So find a way to acknowledge that. But all. Also always be grateful. You have to never get old, never be rude. Never show off, never be selfish, never fall down, never fail, never show fear, never get outta line. It’s too hard, it’s too contradictory, and nobody gives you a medal or says thank you.

And it turns out in fact that not only are you doing everything wrong, [00:12:00] but also everything is your fault. Ugh.

Wendy: So powerful.

Kate: It’s so powerful. And I think it really sums up everything we’re talking about today. It’s this like pressure of, of like the thin and healthy thing. Yeah. And leading with that. ’cause

Wendy: women do this, but do it in this way.

Yeah. And then don’t do it this way because then

Kate: you’re this.

Wendy: Right. Yeah.

Kate: But have a voice, but not too loud.

Wendy: Right.

Kate: I love, like, be a mom, but don’t talk about your kids. Right. Right. Like, it’s just like that dichotomy. And I think it sums up the pressure that women feel all the time. Yeah. For this false, like, you’re never gonna get it all right.

Like, nobody’s gonna get it all right. No.

Wendy: And especially in a professional setting, the amount of women that I hear that shrink back or hide in the shadows because they feel like whatever voice they’re using. Either it’s not being taken seriously or great that you shared your opinions, but not those opinions.

Right. So it’s, [00:13:00] um, gosh, I, I saw it all the time in my HR career. Um,

Kate: yeah. And, and women hold back. Yeah. Because of that fear of being judged, of having a strong voice. Yeah. Or being misunderstood. It’s that people pleasing, wanting to stay

Wendy: Yes.

Kate: In that middle ground.

Wendy: Yes. Yeah.

Kate: So for you, how has, so maybe we’ll talk some personal examples like really crept into your life.

Wendy: Um, so like aside from being conditioned to apologize Yeah. For sometimes just existing. Yes. I think that, uh, you know, I’ve caught myself, I can’t think, I’m trying to think of a, you know, a personal example. Hmm. Um, but I’ve caught myself so many times, you know, tearing up in a meeting, snapping when I’m stressed.

Mm-hmm. Um, even laughing too much. Right. Um, and, and kind of. Hiding that in the shadows as an automatic apology for just being fully me. Yeah. It’s not a [00:14:00] specific example, but it’s, it’s interesting how when you become more conscious and aware of it, it starts to show up more where you’re like, oh my God.

Yeah. I said it again.

Kate: It’s when I know for me it’s when like something matters most to me. So it’s like. If I’m, I don’t know. I’ll just keep using my daughter’s birthday ’cause it just happened. I’m emotional. She turned 15. Like it’s a big deal. I’m not like crying in a corner, but I am emotional about her turning 15.

Yeah. And that to me is like, if I have an emotion about it, I have a whole, my whole set. Like, so you’re being ridiculous. Like blah, blah, blah. I can hear the little voice in my head being like, she just turned 15. Like what? Like I can hear it. Yeah. And I know that’s just like, I’m doing this for the reviewers can’t see us.

I’m like, Pacman, I don’t know what’s happening where my hand, but I can hear it. And it’s just because it’s, it’s years of like all the voices from society to bosses to parents, to teachers that you’ve heard over the years. Yeah. [00:15:00] Talking in your ear, telling you to swallow it down and don’t show that emotion and don’t show that.

And truth, the vulnerability that’s behind. Yes. The emotion. Yeah,

Wendy: just hearing you talk about your daughter reminds me of my youngest daughter when she, she just finished her last year of minor league hockey in April. And the emotion around that from when she was like, yay, high, like, you know, she was on skates practically before she could walk, but that.

Ooh. I’m like getting all emotional just thinking about it, but seeing her come off the ice for the last time. Yeah. And, and like, ooh. Being like on for her last shift. Yeah. But what I loved most about it, and I actually just pulled up this picture the other day, yesterday actually, and showed her is the emotion that she had coming off the ice for her and the other five girls that were the seniors on, like it was their last, uh, their last, their last game in minor hockey.

And I have the most incredible picture of me hugging her. Aw. And the emotion on her [00:16:00] face, like she is full on crying and she’s not an emotional kid. Yeah. And just to your point, like just the years and years and now here she is, but I was so proud of her showing that emotion. And there was just, we were in the hallway, the whole team was around.

There was just like. Silence and just, it was such a beautiful moment. I showed her the picture that she’s like, mom, don’t show me that picture. But I was so proud of her for showing that emotion, and she held onto me so tight and I was just like,

Kate: ah, well, I, I love that. I mean, that’s, it’s a moment, right?

And it’s a moment that you’ll never get again. It’s not gonna repeat itself. It is like a graduation. It is that moment. Yeah. And those moments. Matter. We’re being very vulnerable on the show today. Geez. My eyes are all blurry now, but I’m also old and I can’t see. There’s, the combination is just crying all the time.

I can’t see. Um, I know too with my, and I think it’s good. We’re talking about like parenting ’cause, like what are you, what are we passing on to our Yes. Our kids differently? And I know for me, like one thing I love on my house is [00:17:00] like. It’s more so with my daughter. My boys are, um, they, we just have different conversations.

Yeah. My daughter and I tend to have a more fiery relationship. There’s more hormones involved for both of us. And so, but what I love is that we show how we feel. Mm. And there are days where I’m like, I am, I’m exhausted. I walked into her room yesterday and I knocked on the door and I’m like, uh, are you okay?

And she’s like. I need some alone time. And I was like, okay, you need some alone time. I fully respect that. I’m like, okay, I love that she communicated it to you, but, and she just, she and it, it came out and I could see she was just like, overrun. I’m like, Hey, take your time. Like I do it all the time, but I love that we can do that and I love that we can communicate that like I don’t.

Like how you’re showing up right now. And I don’t, I don’t like this attitude. It’s not working for me. And we can have direct conversations and then go in afterwards and be like, okay, like I didn’t love that. And she’ll be like, I didn’t like you. Like what? You’re really cranky today. And I’m like, [00:18:00] you’re right.

I am cranky. Like, I’m sorry. And then we have those conversations. So. I think it’s so important to allow your kids to show emotion and, and I do it similarly with my boys. They just show up differently. Those moments of emotional connection that I get with them are different than the ones I have. Yeah.

With my daughter. With my daughter. And it’s,

Wendy: it’s, it’s interesting how you allow yourself to show up in different ways for each of your kids that has different, not just different needs, but just. In ways that you know, you can still support all of your kids, but you respect where they are. And where they are in their stage of life and, and what they respond best to.

I think sometimes as parents, we think we need to like the whole, like treat your kids fairly equally. Yes. But you know, I think there’s ways that we can show up differently for our kids depending on what their needs are. Yeah.

Kate: I heard the best thing the other day on a podcast. It’s a bit of a digress, but it was, um, someone was asking, it’s like, how can two kids who grow up in the same [00:19:00] household, um, turn out so differently?

And the response was, it was, um. How can they turn so differently if they had the same parents? And the response from the psychologist was they didn’t have the same parents. And I was just like, what are you talking about? And then I was like, and it’s just the way he said it. I’ve heard it said before, but you didn’t have the same parents because those parents weren’t the same people when they were raising the first kid.

Yeah. Such they might be at different stage of life. They might have other things going on. They might have different marital. Everyone’s experience in a household Yeah. Is unique to them. And so you have to parent your kids uniquely. You have to expect that they’re going to have unique challenges along the way.

Yeah. I love that. I

Wendy: nev, I never

Kate: would’ve

Wendy: thought of that

Kate: perspective. Oh, but it makes perfect

Wendy: sense. Yeah. Especially if

Kate: there’s an age gap

Wendy: with your. Kids.

Kate: Yeah. And also like you, like in a year, think about what happens. Oh yeah. And you get, you could have so much stress at work that, and that stress, like it bleeds into your other family members.

Like you can’t help but happens. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Um, okay, so this feeling of [00:20:00] like, I’m too much or I’m not enough for you, where, where do you think. Let’s go back in time. Let’s go back to our childhood. Watch back to the Future. Well, somewhere in there. Along the way we’ve kind of, as you called it, like we’ve been programmed.

Yeah,

Wendy: yeah. What does that, what for you, what did that look like? So it’s interesting when we were preparing for this, yeah. I had to think a lot about this because. A lot of times we can tie things back to our childhood, our upbringing, but honestly, I think I cultivated this on my own. Like I sat on this one for a while.

Interesting interest to really think about it. So I think I’ve cultivated on my own over time because while my parents were strict, um. And I will say like how I was brought up and how my brother was brought up Yeah. Um, was a bit different. Yeah. Uh, there was a lot more leniency with him. Maybe partly ’cause he was a boy and second child and not that you don’t worry as much, but.

It’s different, I think. Mm-hmm. [00:21:00] When you have a daughter mm-hmm. In terms of just different things that you, so while they were strict, I can’t really pinpoint a time where I could see like, oh, it’s tied back to my childhood. Mm. I think it’s just been how I’ve programmed myself and conditioned myself over time, where I’ve just become immensely hard on myself.

And, you know, my therapist, hi Sarah. You know, she, she. I remember the first time she told me where she says, I don’t think in all of my years of professional counseling, I don’t think I’ve met anyone who as a, who is as hard on themselves as you are. And, and I know, and that wasn’t to make me feel bad, but that was to, that was to be like, I know and why am I like this?

Kate: It’s, yeah. It’s interesting ’cause obviously in preparing for the show you start reflecting on a lot of stuff and I know for me. I didn’t reflect very long on this one. I’m not gonna lie, I know exactly like where I got this road because I grew up in like a hyper strict, like British household. Like you’re talking like [00:22:00] stiff upper lip.

Like there was a lot of discipline. There was a lot of like, you knew your spot, you didn’t act out of, like it was just a very strict household. And so I learned very quickly, like if I’m quiet, if I don’t show any emotion, then I’m invisible. And if I’m invisible, then I’m not doing something wrong.

Both: Right.

And

Kate: so, and. Parents are amazing, lovely people. It’s just that was their upbringing. Yep. And that’s, and they brought that over to Canada and that was the way they were raised and that’s how they raised my brother and I. And it’s like resulted in a lot of really great positive things. But there’s also like, there’s also this other side of it, which is like you learn to squash, and when I say squash, I literally can picture my emotions.

Just like being pushed all the way down. Yes. Yep. Right through my body and just learning to internalize that and go deal with that. Like, don’t bother anybody else with your emotions. You need to deal with your own shit on your own time. I don’t wanna see it, swallow them and just make them disappear.

Swallow. Yeah. Which is horrible. Yeah. Which is really, really horrible. Um, [00:23:00] so I love that we just talked about how we’re kind of changing like a little bit, our narrative with our kids and trying to get them to be okay with showing that emotion. Yeah. Breaking that cycle a little

Wendy: bit. Yes. A little bit and, and holding that.

Proud and helping them recognize that the people in your life, um, who, who don’t support where you’re at for whatever emotion you’re feeling are not the right people. That, that maybe should be in your life. Right. So glad you said that. I’m kind of, I’m not saying it the way it’s kind of in, in my, but you know what I mean.

Uh, I can read your brain. Sorry, I’m not saying it right. I got you. I got you. No, but I get it. Like you, like your circle should wanna see you. Yes. Not just win. Yes. But also be there to support you when you need to not make you feel shameful or whatever, with whatever emotion you’re feeling. And if you feel like you’re suppressing yourself because, and I’ve had friendships in my life, one that I’m thinking right off the.

At the top of my head. Mm-hmm. And I [00:24:00] always, always felt myself shrink back. Worried about saying the wrong thing. Worried about showing the wrong emotion. Yeah. Because it would trigger this person. Yeah. And then it would come back on me and then I’d be like, okay, so I can’t say this, but I can’t show this, can’t do that.

So I think it’s important for our kids to recognize like who you’ve got in your life.

Both: Yeah.

Wendy: Matters as well. Keep showing up is authentically you and if people don’t like it. Yeah.

Kate: Yeah.

Wendy: Those aren’t your people.

Kate: I love that. And I think too, like starting to show those. To your point, like the vulnerability around that is, is to start in a safe place.

Start with someone you know you’re safe with. Yeah. Um, it takes courage to be vulnerable and open up and show emotion. Um, but you have to start. And I think when you start somewhere safe, um, it makes it easier to then move on and maybe start being more vulnerable in an unsure. Yeah, I know [00:25:00] one thing that’s worked really well for me is I got really present a couple years ago, how often I say, sorry, like I say sorry, in emails.

I say, we’ve talked about this before, but one, like a great switch for people when they’re like getting ready to apologize for an emotion or how they’re feeling is to switch that. Sorry to thank you. So like instead of saying like you’re all in a like, sorry I’m late. It can be like, you know, thanks for waiting.

Right. It’s like, and. What it does like immediately. I love it. Is it shifts your, it shifts the blame off of you somehow. The shame off of you. Yep. Right? Yes. Like thanks for listening instead of, sorry, I’m

Wendy: so emotional.

Kate: Yeah. Like

Wendy: thanks for listening. Thanks for not judging. Thanks for your patience. Uh, that’s one that I use often is, you know, if I’m a couple minutes late and I hate being late, it drives me nuts.

It gives me a rash because I’m always like, no. Right. And then, ’cause I feel like I have this expectation to, like, I don’t wanna disrespect the [00:26:00] person that I’m meeting or whatever. So I, I, or if I’m emotional or I’ve had kind of one of those like hormonal off days or whatever, um, I’ll use it with Rob often.

Like, thanks for your patience. Yeah. I haven’t been myself lately. Thanks for your patience versus, I’m sorry.

Kate: Yeah, and it’s literally. I dunno. You can feel the difference in your body. Yeah. When you doing ’em all about the feels in the body as we know, but like you can feel it in your body where you’re not like, I used to apologize ’cause I went on vacation.

Like I get back in my emails, it’d be like starting to get back to you sooner. I was on vacation and I’m like then feeling guilty mm-hmm. That I went on vacation. Mm-hmm. Like it’s amazing how the word itself can just hold so much.

Wendy: Yes. And it’s funny you say emails because I historically have always done this with texts.

Mm. Where I feel like, and I’ve really learned to shift the like. I don’t need to respond back to people, people right away. I don’t need to always say sorry for my delay back. Yeah. When it’s been an hour since they’ve texted me. Yeah. Um, so yeah. Yeah. I dunno where I was going with that, but

Kate: I just thought of the text piece as well.

I think [00:27:00] you’re exactly what I was saying. Um, okay. So the world is like a pretty. Polarized place right now. Yeah. Yeah. And not maybe sort of the most wonderful news flow in the morning. I don’t read the news in the morning anymore. No. ’cause I don’t wanna start my day that way. Staying informed. There’s balance there.

Um, what, like how do the world would shift if, and this is a really hypothetical question, but if the world saw more women showing up with their emotions, truly.

Wendy: I think, I think it would help women both personally and professionally stop shrinking. Mm. I think that they would show up as authentically them without feeling the need to justify everything.

Mm. Without, you know, saying what they need to say, doing what they need to do without thinking of. Then I have to do this or say this after letting all of that go and just doing or saying what feels [00:28:00] right without already always thinking about the rebuttal on. What’s gonna come next?

Kate: 1000%. Yeah. I think women, to sum that up, would feel lighter.

Yeah. I don’t think we’d feel so heavy. I don’t think we’d be so worried about what everyone thinks all of the time. Not all the time. A lot of the time. I think it would. Allow women also to connect to other women more. You know, women naturally are more of that community. Mm-hmm. Builder type, but I do think there’s also a lot of jealousy amongst women and competition amongst women, and so really allowing that true authenticity, I think.

Just allow everyone to not feel so much pressure to show up. Yeah.

Wendy: Perfectly, emotionally, mentally and physically. We feel those physical, um, feels in our body from like the tension or stress in our neck. Oh my god. You know, the anxiety feeling in, in the belly. Yeah. Um, you know, all of those things where we feel like, yeah, it’s just, [00:29:00] it’s there.

So yeah. The feeling of being light and letting that go, but like a muscle. Right. It’s, we, we speak. To this like it’s just like a switch, but it’s like a muscle, right? It’s, you gotta practice it over time for it to start to be ingrained in your habits

Kate: and it’s just start like, just start getting aware, yes, is probably like where I would start.

Okay. Let’s talk about a big emotion for women, which. I think is anger, and I don’t think we talk about it enough. Mm-hmm. Because, uh, women, women get angry too. I know what you’re talking about. Yeah. Ask Rob. I never get angry. Often called irrational, often called bitchy. Dramatic, dramatic. Uh, but it’s anger.

Um, so for you, like, how has your, like what’s your relationship with anger as it changed over time? Like, what does it look like for you?

Wendy: Yeah, so. I’ve started to use anger as more like a compass, um, being less reaction and more proactive in terms of what is the feeling that I’m feeling and. What am [00:30:00] I getting from this and where is it guiding me to?

For me, a lot of it has to tie into my boundaries. Mm. I do feel like if I haven’t set my boundaries or communicated my boundaries, that anger shows up. Not anger at the person. Mm-hmm. Anger at myself. Mm-hmm. For. And, and then comes the script of, for Fox sakes, like, you know, why can’t you just use your big girl words?

Yeah. Why couldn’t you have just communicate and, and then the anger from not protecting my boundaries then spills into all of the things I did that wrong? Does that resonate? No. Hello? Anybody out there? Does that resonate? Everyone was just like, I’ve been there. Right? Yeah. And my bo especially my body language and my moods, like I wear my heart on my sleeve.

Mm. Um, I’m very good at putting masks on, especially with, I have a nice collection depending on how I’m feeling for the day, where I will mask. Yeah. Where it’s got like the outward smiles, but the inward screams. Yeah. And ’cause I’m client facing in what I do. Yes. [00:31:00] That mask has to be on, but I can feel it.

It’s so, it’s the emotion and it’s the physical feeling that I feel when I’m angry.

Kate: Yeah. I relate to all of that. I think for me, anger, when I was young, I just didn’t, I didn’t know what to do with it. Yeah, yeah. And it’s, and learning through therapy is like, anger is not actually an emotion, it’s an expression of another.

Wendy: Yes.

Kate: It’s, you’re feeling something, you’re sad, you’re mad, you’re insecure. You can be all these things, but anger is how it manifests. Yeah. And so I know for me, anger would just. Like as a kid, you, you could find like there’s so many spots in the body for anger to hide, but over time, like it has to come out.

Mm-hmm. Um, and it needs to come out ideally in a healthy way, not in an unhealthy right way. And I think when I was younger, it would just come out in verbal diarrhea and not in the best way. Yes. And I think now I’m similar to you, like anger’s information for me now, anger is a signal of like. When I can, like, when I take a step back, I can get like in a [00:32:00] heated moment, get really angry.

But now what happens is, instead of like the verbal diarrhea, now what happens is, is I like, I pause and I’m like, you’re angry. What are you, what is this about? Ask those questions, like, what are you angry about? Like, why has this got you so riled up? Mm-hmm. And then really start to uncover and peel back the layers of the onion and figure out what’s going on.

And then get to a place of like. Oh, it’s about this. Yeah. Okay. This, I know this is familiar, this I can deal with, and it just helps almost like give the anger something to anchor itself in. Yeah. And like, okay, I’m not gonna sit here and like pretend that I am every time I get angry. Like that’s what I, I don’t.

I don’t, but when I’m really like in it, I will, like, I, it’s a conscious effort. Yep. When someone cuts me off in track traffic, I’m yelling like, I, I am that person behind the car. I’m not gonna get it. Perfect. But what’s important is that you, you start practicing these tools and start using and Yes. [00:33:00] As much as you can.

There Emotion is normal. Feeling anger is normal.

Wendy: Yeah. Well, and I love that you mentioned that anger is. However you worded it, but it’s basically a byproduct of mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. And I think, you know, we’ve heard people all the time, oh, they have anger management issues. Or They have anger issues.

Yes. And it’s, you know, I love that, you know, peel back the onion to really recognize what is it? Because that is a byproduct of something else and it’s taking a step back to, um. Peel that back and really identify what, but it takes work. And it takes work. It’s really hard to do it on your own. Thank you. I think you need, it’s really hard to do it on your own.

I think you need,

Kate: well, for me, it’s my therapist who will help point stuff out and, or it’s good friends, or it’s Eric, like my person. Like it’s, but you need people to help. Why was your person, I’m so sorry, my other person. I’m

Wendy: really angry now. I No,

Kate: maybe you should identify what that true emotion is under the anger.

Um, okay. We talked [00:34:00] about a few myths. Yeah, but I, there’s lots of myths out there. So what are some other myths around, like, anger, joy, whatever that you think are floating out there?

Wendy: Yeah. So. I’ve heard this one before. I, I’m very type A, I have a strong personality. Well, so it’s interesting. A lot of people think that I’m extroverted, but I’m a situational extrovert.

So I’m, I’m, I get that right where I’m, I’m client facing, so I’m extroverted in that capacity. But then I’m very introverted, but I do have a lot of fire and a lot of energy. So I feel like sometimes the world is kind of like what you were talking about in the Barbie monologue. The world is fine with the quiet, the good girl women that just, you know, don’t sit back.

But it there, it, you know, the world is absolutely terrified of women who are like firecrackers.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Wendy: Um, or who express a lot because. Because I don’t know, like, I don’t know if it’s because people don’t know how to handle them. Mm-hmm. Um, people feel threatened. Yeah. I don’t know. And especially women versus women, there’s a [00:35:00] lot of judging around that.

Yeah. Um, and, and I am one of those because I’ll often hear like. Who does she think she is? Like who? You know, because I am very vocal in a respectful way, but yeah, yeah, yeah. I do have that fire and that could somehow sometimes be seen as, what the fuck? Like Yeah. You know? Yeah. Um, so I don’t think the world is,

Kate: knows what to do with

Wendy: that.

Kate: I think you’re right. I don’t think the world has any idea what to do with it. I remember I used to say, um, in business when I was younger, I’d walk into, I was just like an overachiever. So I’d be in boardrooms with men, in men in suits. Mm-hmm. And I’m in my thirties. Yep. Pretending I have my life together.

Right. Like I, I can relate to that. Like super out exterior mattered so much perfect life at home the whole day. But I’d walk in and I remember men just like, they didn’t know what to do with like mm-hmm. A beautiful, smart woman. Mm-hmm. You could be beautiful. Or you could be smart, but not both. But if you’re two things, so it’s similar and having that loud Yeah.

Voice in a [00:36:00] room for men is like destabilize. It was back then. I’m going back a ways. Yeah. But like, and I, I know we’re shifting and we’re moving. Yeah. But I agree with you. I think that’s, I think any extreme sort of showing of emotion. That doesn’t fit in that bubble. Yes. I think is what makes people uncomfortable.

Yeah. The loud person at the game, the woman crying in the corner, um, I don’t know what it could be. Someone’s yelling over here. Like all of those things. When women do it, we get far more. Uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. And maybe it’s just because it is unfamiliar and maybe ’cause we don’t see it enough. I think we see it behind closed doors.

Yes. Um, I definitely see it with my, my girlfriends. I see it with my kids, but you don’t see it publicly. What we see publicly is the highlight reel in the social media. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Life is perfect. Right.

Wendy: Right. Everything that we want to see.

Kate: Everything. Okay. So how can women, I’m gonna go to the joy part, like how can we harness.

Finding Joy and Authenticity

Kate: [00:37:00] More joy, more happiness without feeling. Like almost guilty, right? Mm-hmm. Like almost feeling like I shouldn’t be this happy ’cause it, if I’m this happy and Sarah’s not, I’m gonna make Sarah feel bad.

Wendy: Yep. Yeah. So for me, a big reminder is to use my voice. Mm. I have fallen into the trap and I still do, where don’t assume that they know.

Don’t assume that, you know, just because you’re not saying anything, that they’re gonna know what you’re thinking, feeling. Don’t wait for people to show up and do the things for you. So I think a lot of it comes down to just that personal self-responsibility, self-reflection. Stop playing the victim card, um, and really focus on the small stuff.

Hmm. Buy the flowers. You know, buy the thing that you want. Do the thing that maybe nobody else wants to do. Wear the risque dress, do it up. Bring at some, [00:38:00] at some stages in our life, you have to bring your own sunshine. Um, instead of always waiting for other people to do it for you.

Kate: Yeah, I couldn’t agree

Wendy: more.

It’s wonderful when people do it for

Kate: us, but you have to, you have to do it for you. Like I, I ultimately believe, and I think you can start like super small, like buy a mug on marketplace. Bring, oh my God, look at this mug. For those of us watching

Wendy: $5 on Marketplace, Rob was, was thrilled that the mug collection is over spilling into six cupboards.

He told me. Yeah, but I said I’m bringing my own sunshine.

Kate: But that’s it. So bring your own sunshine. Go buy a mug. Uh, no, but seriously, find something small that brightens your day and do it for you. And it doesn’t have to be something you share with anyone else. Just start feeling the joy because when you really feel it Yeah.

And you share that authentically, people will resonate Yes. With it. They’re, they. Your joy is contagious. Right? It’s,

Wendy: and gives other people permission to show up. Yes.

Kate: And if your joy is too much for someone else. Oh, well. And in time when you practice the joy for [00:39:00] yourself, if you have a big moment of joy in a group or in a setting mm-hmm.

And someone’s offput, you won’t be offput anymore. Yeah. Because you’re just truly, really happy. Oh, for yourself. I love this.

Wendy: If you’re not watching right now, like I have a smile plastered on my face. Just ’cause this kind of conversation just makes me feel happy. Yes. It makes me feel. Joy. Joy, honestly. Joy.

Yay.

Kate: We awesome. Been in the studio for a bit and I think we’re just like, yay. Yay. Look at us. Look at us. Oh, I’m gonna show emotion. I love you, Wendy. I love you too. Okay. Okay. Okay. Great stuff, Steve. We love you too. Yay. Love you too.

Emotions in Relationships

Kate: It’s like the best segue to the next question, which is all about how does owning your emotions show up in relationships?

Wendy: Uh, so. I guess I’ll keep this one short. I think in my 40 plus years it has shown me that owning my emotions doesn’t push people away. It actually brings the right people in closer.

Kate: Yeah, I just wanna say ditto. I [00:40:00] haven’t said it in a while. Great. Next question. No, but it, it, because what it does is it, it creates the authenticity in the relationship. Yes. Yep. But to your point, when you talked about having the right people in your circle, I think it’s really important because you can show those emotions and they, they’re not gonna get met.

I was talking to she about this the other day and she was like, you can show up the way. You wanna show up and you can put up your boundary. It doesn’t mean the other person is gonna show up the way you want them to. Right. Just because you say something. Yes. So it’s finding the right people around you.

Mm-hmm. That you can have those open, honest conversations and be brave. Yep. Be brave and show up and perfectly be brave and have the hard conversations because I can tell you what comes out of that is so much deeper and so much more fulfilling than the superficial resentment filled. Yes.

Wendy: And if you’re consistent with practicing that [00:41:00] mm-hmm.

It helps weed out the people that can’t handle you showing up because that means that they usually aren’t the ones that you needed in your life anyways.

Kate: No, and expecting some of my favorite things that Sherry does, but like. People show up, you know, on this grid from a one to a 10, and some people in your life are tens.

They show up all the time, they’re great. Some people show up like two. Oh, I love the one to 10 exercise. So the one to 10 is great. I use it all the time. And if someone in your life traditionally has shown up as a four, but you have a relationship and it doesn’t need to be a 10, don’t expect a 10 from a four.

It’s like you’re expecting somebody to show up in a way that’s not authentic to them, and that just. Causes you stress at the end of the day. So let them be a four in your life. They might be a 10 to someone else.

Wendy: Right.

Kate: But in your world, they’re four. They’re a four. Yep. Yeah. And that

Wendy: frustration that we often feel is misplaced expectations is one of my favorite [00:42:00] quotes.

And it’s so true. So exactly ties into what you said. I think you’re a 10 though.

Kate: I think you’re 10. Look at us. You can tell we’ve been apart, uh, because we’ve spent all this time together. It would be a very different conversation. Um, okay. If you could go back in time and talk to your younger self, what’s one piece of advice you think you would’ve or you would’ve liked someone had given to you or you would’ve given to yourself?

Advice to Younger Self

Wendy: Yeah. The, the world. We’ll always try to tell you to tone it down.

Both: Hmm.

Wendy: But every time you own your feelings and you show up as authentically you without feeling, oh, I feel this, but I should show up this way. Every time you start to. Not tone it down, you are building more power. Shrinking yourself to make somebody comfortable is one of the worst things that we can do, and I’ve been fortunate enough to, fortunate enough, wow,

Kate: big words

Wendy: today [00:43:00] podcast to have this conversation with my daughters and my stepdaughters around.

Not shrinking yourself. Um, just very, I won’t get into specific conversations we’ve had, but really around when it comes to the people in your life, uh, what you’re doing or choosing to do in your professional life and not dimming your light because dimming your light because it’s too bright for someone else.

Is sometimes just a conversation of put your fucking sunglasses on because I’m gonna keep shining and empowering our kids to really live that and own that.

Kate: I love that. I think for me it’s that I was taught that any emotion is bad. So like I wish I could have come back and like someone could have just like coddled the little girl in me and say like, it’s okay to feel the emotions.

Like maybe in that environment. I think what came with not showing emotion was also a sense of I shouldn’t feel [00:44:00] emotion. Right? And so when you have both of those, that’s. Difficult. So don’t feel it, don’t show it. Um, and so I wish someone had said to me that it’s okay to, to feel it and it’s okay additionally to show it.

Yeah. Like you don’t have to have it all together all of the time. Nobody does. Yeah. And I think the more you can show up as a human mm-hmm. And as someone who’s doing the best they can and is a good person at the end of the day, that that’s what it’s about.

Wendy: And I think that’s why I love these real women real talk because I know they’re like the messages that we get from women that have started like going for walks every day, and this is like their time to listen to these types of episodes where it gives them permission to not silently suffer or silently kind of deal with what they’re supposed to deal with, but allows them to.

You know, not shrink back allows them to hear other people who, you know, like people look at us [00:45:00] sometimes and think, oh, they’ve got it all figured out, but they

Both: do

Wendy: like that mess. Like, oh, like you’ve got this and you’re doing this. You’re both business owners. You’ve got, we don’t have fuck all figured out.

No, it’s, but we’re just Right. We’re just showing up as best as we can. And I, I think that gives other people permission to be like. I’m gonna show up just like me. They see other people doing it. Yeah. And I just feel like it just resonates so much with people.

Kate: Yeah. I love that you said that. And I, I like to, anyone listening, you’re not alone.

And you can reach out to us at any point and have a conversation and I can tell you how not altogether I have it. ’cause I don’t, and there are days where I feel like a frigging rock star and there are days where I feel like I’m failing at life across the board. Yep. Um, and I think that’s the human.

Experience is some days are fantastic and some days are really, really, really shitty and some days are really, really, really dark, and it’s just, that’s life and it’s how you get through it. I think we use a lot of humor on this show that does help, but we also have really. I think [00:46:00] deep, authentic, real conversations.

Yeah. And the more you can talk things out in a safe environment with a great community, I think that’s what Living Richly really is. Yes. And that’s

Wendy: what the Living Richly Nation, all the Facebook group is all about, like 100% where so many people and it’s just so heartwarming and just, I’m so proud of people that share their stories in there because they feel like it’s a safe place.

Because we’ve curated that safe space and I, and we’ve cultivated it. Yeah. And

Kate: what I will say is there is, in the Facebook, uh, nation private group, there is a zero tolerance policy for any, anyone who doesn’t adhere to the policies that we put in place, which is a safe, nurturing community where people, um, show up.

Authentically and share and, but that’s respected in that group. Yeah. I love that. Okay, I think I’m gonna close this there. I feel this is such a great, great conversation, great conversation. Um, thank you so much for joining us on this episode. If you enjoyed what you [00:47:00] heard, please like, share, subscribe, and if you haven’t already, visit living richly.me, our website and you can join our Facebook Nation group.

Closing Thoughts and Call to Action

Kate: And if you’re ready to lead boldly in business, Rhapsody Strategies is there to back you up. So until next time, get out there and continue living your best life.