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Episode 17: Finding Your Community

I think a good community will encourage us, they will support us, they will be a model for us — a good community will help us see ourselves more clearly.      

Rob Dale, Eric Deschamps, Trefor Munn-Venn

Welcome to the Living Richly Podcast. My name is Rob Dale, and I’m here with my, what are you gonna say this time he always says something different friends. Meaningful community. Meaningful community. My meaningful community, Eric Deschamps and Trefor Munn-Venn. Uh, and, uh, I haven’t got a clue we’re talking about, because Trefor likes to turn off my iPad at just the right moment.

No, we wanna, uh, it, it is so wonderful to be able to, uh, welcome all of you to this journey each and every week to be part of, uh, listening in, and I’m just absolutely. I know that we’ve talked about a number of occasions, how amazed we are with the response that we’re getting, uh, the number of people that take the time to, uh, send us a note to whether it’s individually or uh, uh, to all of us around a different episode and how it’s spoken to them and, uh, just the way that it’s really influenced them.

And so thank you so much for that. Thank you for being a part of this, uh, journey with us. Uh, we are gonna be talking about community today and uh, uh, and I think that this is probably of all of the themes, it’s, this seems to be the word that, uh, as you listen to the different episodes, seems to run.

Through almost every topic that we’ve discussed is at some point there is this conversation around community. Uh, and, uh, and you are part of that community. If you’re listening in, if you’re participating by leaving comments, by leaving reviews, doing all of that, uh, you really are a part of this community and we are so grateful for you and, uh, for being a part of that.

Uh, I think the comment that I have appreciated the most, probably the one that I’ve received more than anyone el uh, any other comment is, Rob, how the fuck do you deal with these two on a day in and day ill basis? And, and with joy, with joy and gratitude, and I so deeply appreciate that people can understand.

They empathize with the fact that I need to, uh, that I need to do that. And, uh, and yet here I am, uh, trudging along, creating rituals that allow me to live, live rich richly with you. And here I thought we were bringing joy to a grumpy old man. Somebody’s got a script. Well, that’s what I mean. , you certainly, you certainly thought that.

Did you admitted to go yell at a cloud ? Yell, yell at

Uh, it is, uh, we, uh, We have too much energy today. I think we have lots of it. Today’s its, it’s great. So let’s talk community. We’ve recognized the importance of it. I, right from episode one, we have, uh, suggested and talked about the notion that, uh, to, to, to really. Engage in this activity of finding and living your best life.

Uh, at some point, you may not have it when you start, but at some point there is an importance of community, an element of finding your community, your tribe. Uh, maybe just at a higher level, what do we mean by, uh, this word community? What do we mean by the language of community and finding our c. Well, there’s, there’s the saying that a lot of folks are familiar with this notion of you become like the five people you hang around with most.

We are deeply influenced by the meaningful relationships, uh, that we what Rob’s trying to, Rob’s counting. Rob, Rob, I love the five people that I . Oh, no

Eric was saying something. I was saying something . I, I’m, I’m, I’m predicting that this episode will require a lot of work in post edit editing. Yes. Thank you, Steve. We love you, man. Thanks for being part of our community. Thanks for being part of our community. . Uh, but what, but let, let’s face it, our relationships are so influential.

They’re so, uh, uh, shaping right from the earliest community we belonged to, which was our family of origin, uh, to the family of choice now, or the new community that we forge in time. Uh, it, it deeply influences the way that we think, the way that we live our lives. It influences how we feel, uh, about ourselves, how we interpret the world around us.

Uh, so this notion of community is it to, for me is the nation, the this, the relationships that are most meaningful to you. And we’ve said over and over again, as you were saying, like the theme that keeps popping up, how many times has it come up in one of the episodes where it say, you know, you can take this journey alone.

And part of it, you actually have to take a loan. Yeah. Uh, but it’s really hard to do it alone long term. Uh, and so what we, we just, uh, right, uh, our previous episode was on rituals. And I think like one of the rituals that we wanna talk about in this episode is, b, building a deliberate community, aligning yourself with like-minded individuals that can help you, uh, live your rich, richest life.

And, and, and, and reach your full. I have nothing to add. . Alright. . It’s so good. Like that’s, that’s the first time . . Oh wait. Oh wait. , I, I like what you said about also that that family that we construct over time, right? Because it tells us there is an instinct to construct our community. Right? There’s society which we just live in.

There’s community, which I is a, there’s a choosing exercise, both us and the others in our community as well. And I think what we’re looking there for is not duplication. I don’t need identical, but I need aligned. Right, right. And to, and to say, how do I find those people in my life? How do, how do I start to build that?

And how important is that? And I think we’re learning more and more. It’s extraordinarily important. Extraordinarily important when we are going through the values exercise and, uh, exploring what our core values, uh, I th. And I shared at that point, um, the one that I think surprised me the most as I began to realize and understand and appreciate, uh, how it mattered to me was connectedness through community.

Hmm. Uh, and, uh, and it was a conversation that you and I had, uh, where I first began to realize, oh my God, I do value community. That I really, before that thought that, uh, the scripts that I had for sure, uh, spoke to me about isolation and I’m better alone. And I, you know, uh, and I would often sabotage, uh, the, the relationships or I would, you know, leave communities or I would just, communities would deserve, make all of this notion of the negativity around if I put my.

Uh, if I put, uh, uh, kind of, if I allow myself to connect within a community, I’ll be disappointed, uh, by the people in that community. And, and the reality is sometimes you are disappointed, uh, and that that’s an emotion that you feel. And, and you have to then walk through that. And we have a great episode around emotions and, uh, and feelings and, and how you understand the difference between you being a feeling versus you having a feeling.

Uh, I’m still surprised. We, we we’re referring to feelings in the plural, that that’s a sign of growth that can drop us , . But as I’ve, we’ve come a long, we’ve come a long way. We have more than one. And as I’ve leaned into this value of, connected to this, uh, connectedness through community, one of the things that I’ve discovered for me is that, Many of my rituals, whether even, even let’s use the one on, on working out.

Like I, I, I value the, the community that I have at the gym that I go to, uh, I’m, you know, I, I’ve got that badge of contributor or whatever they call it on Facebook because I probably po next to the administrators. I’m posting all the time in there because I just value the, the relationships that I’ve connected to Super Bowl.

Uh, we had a Super Bowl party. Who do I have at the Super Bowl? Whole bunch of people that I’ve gotten to know and I’ve met through the, through the, uh, gym that have become, uh, friends as we’ve built out this community. So, uh, community. So I remember when you first started going to that gym, and I remember we asked you like, so how was it?

And you, The people are great. Right. You, you didn’t say anything about the workout. Yeah. You, you said another thing about the training. It was all about the people. Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Right. And, and that’s just one of those communities there are, there are recognizing that, uh, so much of our growth happens around other people.

Uh, it’s, it is an important topic for us, uh, to, to dive into and to explore. Uh, and we’ll talk about how we, maybe some of the things we can do to, to build that, uh, community. But I, I don’t want us to rush off of the importance of it. Uh, and, and, uh, you, you, you said something interesting is we are preparing for, uh, this episode about there is this pull in way in some ways between, uh, individualism and.

There’s creative tension between this, uh, human need to connect and find our tribe and be part of something larger than ourselves. And the, the, the journey to self differentiation, figuring out who we are, what we’re about, um, and becoming that authentic self. And I think, and those are in creative tension.

So they live in tension, but creatively in, in terms of pulling us forward in both those directions simultaneously. I think if we don’t do the work of self differentiation of figuring out who we are, then we are often just mirroring. The values and the lives of the people around us, we get lost in the crowd.

Uh, it’s, uh, uh, on the episode on heart, we talked about how much of the, uh, most of the, um, love songs and love poems are complete bullshit because they, they, they encourage this notion of losing yourself in someone else of, you complete me, you complete me, you are everything to me. You make me happy. I get what those things are trying to.

But that actually discourages self differentiation and figuring out what matters to you. And so you lose yourself. Uh, so not enough self differentiation. You’re gonna be very unhappy because you’re just gonna be pulled along by the, wherever the crowd’s going, you will go. Right? And, and that’s a miserable way to live.

Uh, too much independence. However, without community, and you’re gonna be a very lonely person, uh, you’re gonna live your life in a lot of isolation. And so it’s, it’s understanding that these two forces that at the surface may seem like opposing forces are not. They live in creative tension designed to help us answer the question, who are the people that I need to be aligned with?

Uh, right, that are going like-minded individuals that are on a similar journey, not the same journey. No, no one’s ever at the same point, at the same time, but on a similar. That I can align myself with while I’m working on being my best, authentic self, being true to myself within community. I think when you take those two concepts together, uh, it, it, uh, it, it presents a really healthy view, uh, on, on how to do this work.

Sequence matters. Sequence matters, sequence matters. And, and even in this sequence matters. The, the idea of, uh, this is why it’s important to know your values. It’s important. Uh, it’s, we, one of the common things we hear sometimes, you know, from some groups today is they’ll, they’ll talk about, oh, you’re just, you’re part of the sheeples.

Right? Right. Uh, and, and I always find it interesting because whatever group you’re a part of, you are probably, if you’re not careful, if you haven’t defined your own values, well you’re just sheep with that group. Uh, whatever that might be. Right. And I can tell you, your people do not understand sheep. No.

Well, yes. Right. , yes. The partner can certainly, uh, have no idea what’s happening. This is a protective mechanism to grow, to sustain, to survive. Care to survive. , yeah. People are going, it’s just mindless. I’m like, Nope. That’s not what’s happening. Right. What I, what I, and the reason why I talk about this notion of sequence matters, I think of some of the groups.

The, the, the communities that I have been connected to, um, you know, the Jeep community, uh, if you get too caught up in the Jeep Community, Jeep, good. Everything else bad. Well, isn’t that how it goes? Eh? Maybe I’m gonna have to post my forerunner again like I did in the last show. No , right? Like it’s, and the one before that, like, and the one before that.

Before and the one before that. He really loves his Corolla. . Yeah. That’s a, it’s a nice Corolla. Uh, the notion though is, but we can do that in any sub, uh, group begins to, if you’re not careful and if you haven’t first established your identity and what matters to you, you can get sucked into this notion of now protect the community at the expense of it becomes the, the community in that context becomes an echo chamber.

Yes. Closed to outside influence, protectionist of its views. Um, and guarding against any outside influence, which is a closed. A, a position of both the mind and the heart and the spirit, right? It’s this notion of how do I, again, align myself with people that are like-minded, but keep an open mind. Keep an open spirit, keep an open heart.

Uh, what is what, what is important to me? And how many times do people compromise their own values, their own thoughts on things, again, in order to fit in? So when we talk about community, we’re not talking about that. We’re not talking about p. Now, peer pressure can be good. Yes. Right? Yes, absolutely.

Positive peer pressure, right? Like when you’re aligned with the right people, they can help influence you in all kinds of great ways. But that is a deliberate choice on your part. I want, like, as much as you two yahoos, you know, sometimes drive me nuts. I’m kidding. Yahoos. Yahoos, you got called Yahoos , right?

Yeah, I kind of dated myself who was over 50. Hell . Oh, I know the curmudgeon. But Right. Like, and, and this may be lost on some of our viewers, but like we’ve mentioned it before, like these, the three of us are the best of friends. Uh, at least I consider them. I’m not sure how they feel about me after that Yahoo comment.

But, uh, even more so my two best friends in the whole wide world, were also business partners together. And we’ve had to, we’ve had to work through being friends. We’ve had to work through, uh, right. Being in business together, we’ve, we’ve worked through some difficult things. Um, and yet, like, it’s been an amazing journey because the, the three of us are like-minded, right?

We’re on a similar journey, a similar path, but the three of us are still individuals. Uh, we still have our own thoughts. We still have our own views on things. We still have our own perspective, and that’s not to say we’ve got it all figured. . But anytime you’re in a community that becomes closed like that, you need to be careful, uh, because you’re, that’s not what we mean.

The purpose of communities to expand your worldview, not limit it, not to create an echo chamber if there are topics that are off limits. Oh yeah. Wow. That’s a great way to put it. You’re, you’re onto something different than, than a healthy growing community. Right? Like I, to me, that’s the real marker. If some things are not allowed to be talked about or discussed openly, uh, that’s when I think you flags should be going up to kind of go, what is this really?

Because usually what you’ve found is more of an agenda than a community. Oh, that’s good. That’s really good. The, uh, community is so essential. Right? We can track back through history. We can track back through pre-history. Which is the same thing in my mind, right? Yeah. The, uh, but the, uh, you know, we go back as far as we can find any signs of life and the life is together.

It’s together. Right. And I, I think I said in another episode, like every philosophy, every religion, every bit of science tells us everything is connected. It’s connected. Connection is fundamental. Community is fundamental in every bit of. Design, accident dynamic, whatever you want to call it, that sense of connectedness is essential.

And when we’re not connected, we’re out of alignment with the universe we’re wired for. And it’s not gonna go well. It’s not gonna, the universe is gonna win every time, and yet everyone, yet that connection is based on individuals coming together. Right. All right. Uh, so, uh, and take, take the first nation’s practice of the talking circle, uh, that very, uh, uh, practice is about people sitting down together with great respect for one another and sharing different perspectives, different views.

Right. I loved, uh, in, in preparation for this, I came across the African concept of Ubuntu. Yeah. Which is this notion of, I am. Because we are, I love that, that our wellbeing is actually inseparable from the wellbeing of others. And yet they are distinct, they are not. You don’t lose yourself, uh, any community where you feel you can’t be authentic, where you can’t be your true self that you have to put on, uh, uh, some sort of front or, or some pseudo self in order to fit in, um, is not a healthy community.

Um, and you have to ask yourself. Maybe that’s not being put on you. Maybe that’s something you’re just sensing or maybe very much in order to fit in, you’ve gotta fit. So that, that’s typically not the kind of community we’re talking about. I think authentic community, to me, one of it’s, uh, there’s many hallmarks of it, but one is unconditional acceptance.

Uh, you, you get to be. You get to be you, you get to be your authentic you and be accepted and loved as you are, uh, without this pretense, without having to play games, um, without having to jump through hoops. You don’t have to perform for it. Look a certain way, sound a certain way. No. You get to just show up as you and, and you are loved and accepted and supported.

Uh, just like you’re doing that for others, right? And we’re not doing that perfectly ever. But that is the central theme of it, is you get to be you in the context of community. I want us to talk about, uh, how we find that community. How do we find our people? Uh, I want to talk about maybe for a few minutes, uh, how we protect, uh, our community.

How do we protect, uh, you know, that, that tribe, uh, when you talk about what you just, what you were just sharing there right away, one of our, uh, kind of our. Kind of guiding principles, uh, that we protect, as you mentioned, uh, this friendship, this, my best friends and my business partners around that notion is, uh, we, we have a saying that says we can be uncomfortable but not unsafe.

Right. That the, the relationship is solid. The relationship is safe. Even if we have to have uncomfortable conversations with one another, uh, we are, we have that framework to do that. And, and so a community where you can be uncomfortable but you’re not unsafe, is, is one of those characteristics, as you said, that we, we really need to look for in a, in a community.

Um, it is, it was fascinating for me when I, when I first, uh, not even when I first, a number of years after I left the church. , uh, of course one of the, you know, certainly in the, in the denomination that we are part of, and, uh, there is that, that notion of, uh, the, that, uh, the earth was, you know, that the universe was created by God.

Most people, uh, you know, for the, generally speaking in our denomination, believe in a younger earth, kind of seven day creation, six day creation, seven day, yeah. That’s the, the basic ju to creation. That’s the sort of construct, right? And that’s certainly out of the, the, the mindset. And so for me, for a lot of those, uh, late teen, early 20, 30 forties, I dismissed the notion of even evolution or, or the notion of, you know, just all of this.

I felt a little bit like I didn’t know much about it. And so I, one of the books that I pick up, I asked some friends, I said, okay, give me a book that will help me to understand kind of the beginnings of humankind. That is an easy read, that is, you know, fairly, you know, that I can read in a simplistic way.

And the book Sapiens was recommended. Uh, and, and that was a fascinating read for me. Yeah. Uh, it was, it’s been years since I’ve read it, so I, I, I’d have to go, I actually, I’m gonna make a note to go back and read that one again. Uh, but in Sapiens he talks about, the author talks about the idea that, uh, the reason why Homo sapiens, that now first of all, there were all kinds of different groups, uh, neph, Neanderthals.

There are all kinds of different groups that the reason why we survived was because the Homo Sapien were the first two established communities and were able to understand that each person in the community brought value. , right? Uh, they were different, but each was needed in order for the community to survive and to grow.

Uh, and it’s why you see it all through humankind. Uh, we often would, would build out and develop communities wherever we were because of how important it was and, and how important it is. Uh, so let’s talk about then, uh, we, we understand now we’re talking about the importance of it. We’ve been mentioning it all through.

We do talk at times about, we recognize that, you know, if you don’t have a community, maybe this is your community right now. , uh, and, and we’re certainly not, you know, changing that language. We, if you are listening today, uh, and you’re like, I am really all alone on this journey, this is your com. We want you to feel like this is your community.

Uh, as we though begin to say, okay, I’m ready to find other people that I can interact with that aren’t chat bots, uh, like the two of you, uh, just created by chat, G P t, uh, . Uh, how do we do that? Uh, so what are some of the things that we should be thinking about or talking about? How, how does one begin to find their tribe?

So, how’s that for a big question? That’s a big question and it’s, and it’s like, it’s a question I want to answer, um, but the answer isn’t as directed. I wish I had a more direct. answer to it, but I Three steps to find it. Your community. Yeah. Yeah. Here we go. Three. Easy set. The first one is you have to find you.

Yeah. Uh, the right, like, it, it’s, um, The, and that’s, that’s the critical piece because otherwise any community you find you, you’re not until it’s actually you finding them. Your alignment is not gonna be strong. You’re probably performing, it’s probably more unsafe than uncomfortable. Well, how do you orient yourself?

Like how do you orient yourself within that community without a clear sense or at least a clearer sense of who you are? Yeah, because I think clarity, again, is something we work on our whole life, getting greater clarity as we go. Uh, but to your point, it, it comes back to, uh, when you, when you invest in yourself first.

So perhaps there’s, uh, there’s some solo time required before you truly build a community. If you’re in transition right now and looking for, then the, the best work you can do, the best, best work you can do is to invest in. Getting clear on who you are, because once you do, you’ll bring a better version of you to every relationship or any community that you connect with.

And we’ll be able to know if that community or that friendship or that relationship. Cuz how many people, we talk about community, we’re talking about broader community, but how many folks that are looking for the perfect one, right? They’re looking for their ma right? They’re looking for their soulmate.

Well, h how do you f how do you know, uh, I mean that’s a, that’s a whole other conversation, but how do you know without that clear sense of self? Like, if you don’t have that, uh, that, that defined, then almost anything will do. Right, right, right. Is it ironic that there’s turkeys walking past ? I’m a little community of turkeys hungry for a Turkey.

Oh, you mean outside this room? Outside. Outside this room that I, I. Boy, somebody’s trying to solve this issue of community. I’m like, look, a Turkey, I look at Turkey . The, so this issue of community, I think you’re right. You have to double down on you, uh, to, to say, where am I in this? Who am I? Because if you’re just swapping out a, an inauthentic version of who you are for a different inauthentic version of who you are, you’re still not gonna get what you want, the, uh, and what you need and what you so richly like positively deserve.

Right? And this is where I’d go back to Kelly Flanigan, um, where he said, you know, first you need to anchor into your worth, that sense of self, right? Can’t lose it. Uh, can’t stain it, but you can bury it. You need to uncover it. It’s a little excavation. Where was I? When did I lose me? Wow, what mattered, right?

Those pieces start to emerge. And then he makes this beautiful statement. He says, then your people will arrive, your people will start to show up. And I, and I think that’s part of what we have to also recognize is. As we commit more deeply to connecting with the authentic, true version of self, that scary, courageous moment to start to do that, but that also very gentle, compassionate action that we can take with ourselves.

You’re gonna lose some people. Yeah. And you’re gonna gain some people. Right? And accepting that both of those are true is really important because sometimes the people we lose sometimes these are people who have been enabling behavior that’s not serving us, that we’re really strongly connected to. And that’s a tough thing to break sometimes.

These are people who’ve been in our lives a long time, and it’s not a, it’s not a condemnation. It doesn’t mean they’re bad people, it doesn’t mean, uh, forget about the judgment around it. It’s the alignment starts to shift, and usually it’ll happen as a. , it just kind of falls off. There’s other parts where there’s a break that’s required and that is an act of courage as well.

And, and I, I really think it’s that piece of getting really clear, really connecting to self. And then those people start to show up. And it’s not that you don’t have to get it a hundred percent. You’ve got it and you’re complete and now your people show up. No, like I, I think we can be messily working our way toward it and our people will start to show up and they can actually help us in that work.

Right. And that’s the power of a community is they, they help us reveal who we are. They help us find, you know, that real genuine se sense of both self and community. And it’s interesting that, uh, you know, when you talk about people that are in our lives, uh, I heard years ago, someone say that a lot of folks come into our lives for a reason.

Or a season, right? Not every relationship comes into our life forever. And when we think of the power of community, even folks that come into our lives that are like sandpaper, right? They grade us the wrong way. They pit like they, they trigger us. They like, uh, even those folks are in our lives for a reason.

And, uh, if we don’t deal with what’s surfacing internally, like I, I think they’re the folks that show up for a reason and perhaps a se, hopefully just a season. Uh, but if we don’t deal with what they’re triggering in us, that’s okay. Uh, there’s no failure here. There’s just, what is it? Winning and learning, right?

There’s only winning and learning in all of this. Uh, but the universe will just recast another person in a similar role, right? And you’ll get to try again. . Oh, that’s wonderful. Don’t, and again, and again, end that again. Don’t, you don’t have to worry about that. You don’t have to worry about that. It’ll just keep showing up, up your mind.

Uh, it’ll just keep showing up. Uh, but it’s this notion again of, of, of getting clear when you’re, the, the more clear you about yourself and, uh, being very present to the reality that in this journey of self-discovery, Your relationships may shift, your relationships may morph, and that you may find yourself for a season.

I’ve been, I’ve redefined myself, uh, in, in my almost 52 years, more times in a care to count. And there’s been seasons of great loneliness where, uh, I remember, uh, I, I talked about it in my, in episode number three, uh, three, I think it was where I tell my story that when I left the church world, a world that I inve had invested so much.

Um, and the moment I left, uh, the world went dead quiet. And, uh, the silence was deafening. It’s real loss, real loss. And if you’re in a, if you’re facing that now or about to face, what I’d say to you is, is listen. Um, alone is not the goal. , right? And loneliness is not forever, but you may have been given this opportunity currently to work on some stuff free of all those expectations, free of all that pressure, uh, that sometimes there’s a withdrawing and there’s a, a period of isolation.

We talk about the importance of both self differentiation and community, but there’s also community and solitude. Those are two, right? Cuz I think self differentiation, that work is actually done in solitude. It’s very hard to do that work in community because you might be influenced, again, unduly by people that just have certain influence over you.

Uh uh, but, but the goal is not to be alone and loneliness is not going to be forever, but it may be for a season. As you get more clear on who you are than your community, again, your people will show up. Yeah. You don’t wanna fight the season. Uh, acknowledge and recognize that season, and you don’t have to love it, but, but be real about it.

And then, and then it really is double down on, on, on your journey, your piece, because the other thing that happens, the more we connect with who we really are, the more clearly we see other people. And so it helps us actually identify, is this my community or not my community? Where before we’ve got so many lenses, lens after lens, after lens after lens, and we think we’re seeing clearly, we say with such conviction.

It’s amazing. And yet, very often part of what we’re doing as we get to see ourselves more clearly is letting some of those go. And, and so we have to recognize there is loss. In this process, sometimes it’s good loss. It’s like, I don’t have to do that anymore. I don’t need to be that. I never needed to be that, but I’m, I’m done with that now.

And sometimes some of those are hard though because they have served us, right? All behavior is purposeful. We’re getting a benefit. We, we wouldn’t keep doing something unless we were benefiting in some way from the behavior. Yeah. Uh, uh, uh, but we just have to look at how much is it benefiting us versus how much is it hurting us, you know?

And, and again, sequence matters. We’ve said that a number of times. We, we recognize that. And, and, and the, uh, the, the self-work, the, the, the work that is done, uh, at least starts in isolation. Uh, uh, the values, for example. Uh, I think that, that, that becomes, we talk about this in the business world, that, uh, the, your values in a business are meant to be management tools, right?

They manage, they help you make decisions in the same way, once you’ve defined and you really establish what your values are, uh, for you as a, as a individually. , they help you define the community. They, they’re able to be used to say, is this my community? Well, what do my values say about this community? Uh, yeah, no, that’s not the right community.

And you’re able to start to use the personal work to find that community. To find that tribe. And it’s that. Yeah, cuz it’s like that compass. Right? And, and, and I know we keep talking about community in the broader sense, which is, which is great, but there’s also just. Is this the kind of person that I want to align myself with?

Because community is often built one person at a time. You’re not, it’s not just about joining a social club or joining some kind of, although that is certainly, if someone is looking to build community, that is a great step to take is try different activities that are of interest to you. Uh, and, and you, you may strike up some relationships with like-minded people, right?

Uh, but even within that setting, you still need to have that compass just because they, like Jeeps for example. They may not be your. They, they might not like you, might not share enough in common. There’s, there’s, uh, for me it’s this notion we have a lot of, like, I, there’d be a lot of folks in my life that I put in the acquaintances category.

Yeah. Right. But when I talk about friends, these are people I’m much more deeply connected to and want. To spend meaningful time with because of, of, uh, both what I feel I’m able to give and receive. It’s a, it’s, it’s reciprocal. It’s, it’s, it’s mutually engaging and life giving. Um, uh, so, so you’re right.

Like it’s without the compass, I think we waffle around trying to find in and outta relationships. Uh, cuz we, because we’re so deeply looking, again, I go back to self-acceptance. We’re so deeply looking for someone to say you’re okay. That we’ll often waffle into just about any relationship or friendship or whatever the case may be.

Any community that shows any sign of acceptance. Um, and we, we, without real judgment, without real wisdom, just jump right in. Uh, I think of relationships that I’ve been. In the past where I jumped in because they showed interest. And that’s, I was so deeply that met all the criteria that, that met all the criteria, the one criteria.

They, they seem to like me, therefore Okay. Um, and in hindsight, like they weren’t my people, like they Right. Uh, but now having a compass, right? Yeah. You’re, you’re able to select and, and make more meaningful choices around who moves from acquaintance to friend and, and in and, and even, and then to that deeper relationship.

And we’re, uh, in a future episode, I, I, I know we want to talk about even living richly as a couple for Well, no, you do. That significant relationship. I do for sure. Yeah. It, it, it is something that, uh, that matters to me. It does matter. And it, it matter to you too. It should. It should. It should. It’s a must and a half to No, no.

I’m feeling pressure. I don’t wanna be your friend anymore. But I wanna talk about, because the, one of the things you said, I went, oh, maybe again. Yeah, it was . We need another spreadsheet. , you, you, you, you made this statement that, uh, as you begin to, you may lose some people, but as you more, you lean into yourself, into the, you know, to your genuine self, your people will show up.

Um, and that is true. Let, let, let me though. Let, I’m glad we agree. Thank you. Yeah. Let, let me go a little bit further. So what’s your problem? Because I think there are some things you can deliberately do to invite that community to show up. Agreed. Okay. I don’t think it’s a matter of, right. Well if you, the more you lean into it, you know, eventually they’ll just show up.

So just wait around until they show up. And, and I, is that how I said it? Yes, it’s exactly what you said and what you meant. And it’s why I had a trouble with what you had to say. Uh, anytime you need me to interpret your, me your, your thanks brother, what you’re saying. I’m happy to do that for you. . I’m gifted that way.

One of the reasons why we encourage people at the end of every episode to share out upon the, the episode share out, add some thoughts. Uh, that is one of the ways that you can begin to find your community is the more you talk about the journey you’re on, the more you are vulnerable with, uh, the journey.

Oh, well, that’s a big word. Yeah. Uh, you know why we told our stories? He used the V word, we told our stories right at the beginning of, you know, in episode three, four, and five. We tell those stories we want, we don’t have to vulner, we don’t back to that . Uh, we do, uh, as, as all these new, uh, ones and two people come and start to discover the episode, the podcast, we want them to go back.

Because we, that is when, and we’ve seen it. The more we share this, the more the community shows up. Yeah. It’s true, true. And, and I would say that’s one of the very specific practical things that, that, that someone listening who’s saying, I, I don’t have this community. I don’t have this tribe. They may be closer than you realize that they’re waiting for you to say something.

They’re waiting for you to, and vulnerability. I mean, that’s a huge, and I’m a big fan of vulnerability, authenticity. Those are, are, those are values that I hold very dear and respond to really well when someone shows. Uh, appropriate vulnerability. Yes. I think, I think, uh, like is, if one is, uh, searching for that community, we’re not suggesting you need to just put it all out there.

No, no. Because that’s taking a pretty big risk where you could get hurt unnecessarily, but appropriate vulnerability where you do start talking about what matters to you. You, but again, you can’t do that if you haven’t done the work. If you haven’t figured out what’s important to you, how can you talk about it?

But when you start talking about it, then the, the folks that are like-minded, Uh, who may to your point be closer than you realize? Start to go what? Pardon? And they tune into that frequency cuz they’re also tuned into that frequency. You put out a post on Facebook for example, and you say, Hey, I’ve been working on my personal values.

Really discovering who I’m, that’s all you say. You might have others go, oh my god, me too. Right. That’s so inter, you know, I’d love to have that conversation with you and to learn more about what you’re doing and how you’re discovering this. That’s really what I’m talking about. So I’m so glad you clarified that.

But yeah, you’re absolutely, I don’t, I’m not suggesting that even the level of vulnerability we were in our, in our individual episodes, I’m not suggesting you do that to the, to the wider unless you’re starting a podcast. And, uh, I’m not suggesting you necessarily do that in episode 3 45. Uh, uh. That’s so good though.

It’s so good because the, uh, certainly my point, and, and Kelly Flanagan’s point wouldn’t be, this is a passive exercise. Right. Just, just focus on you. But there is a, there’s a point where you have to, you have to bring it into the world, right? We say the lips or the fingertips, you’re either gonna write it down or you gotta say it.

Yeah. Right. At some point you start to bring the inside to the outside, and we want to bring the authentic inside to the outside. And as we do that, people go, me too. , right? They see it in a way that they, you know, there there’s a pickup that happens that is so distinct because we start to realize that there’s this strong connection and, but there is a, there is that vulnerability and that’s where it’s, you know, I, I, I think baby steps are really good there.

Uh, we practice. I think community where vulnerability is not allowed is also a problem. Right. Or where it’s forced. Mm-hmm. is also a problem, also a problem. Uh, because that’s for forcing you into position where you’re not being your authentic self. Right. Right. Where you’re compromising or forcing yourself into behavior.

If I don’t, if I don’t open up and share my whole life with this group, then I won’t be accepted. Well, that’s unhealthy pressure that, that is forcing you to wear a mask and be someone that you’re not, or at least not ready to be in that moment. Yeah. Uh, so anytime that goes on, and I think in relationships, we’re gonna, even in friendships, friends are, we’re, we’re gonna make mistakes and we’re gonna pressure each other unnecessarily in.

Right. But the. Theme, there should be one of acceptance and love and be you and, and show up as you are. Uh, so I think seeking out like-minded individuals, right? Uh, um, and, and here’s, here’s one. We’ve been talking a lot about the amount of, uh, uh, I was thinking about community. We, and, and a lot of what’s defines communities days or online communities.

And tho although those can be very false and, and, uh, you’ll hear me say it again. I think, I think the best thing you could do for your life is to. You know, spending as much time as maybe you are thumbing through, uh, someone else’s feed on social media and start engaging more with your own life. That alone will, will, will be, even if you invested half an hour of the time that you may be currently investing, just reading about people’s highlights, uh, on, on the various social media platforms out there and devoting that 30 minutes, uh, to getting clear on who you are, man, it’s gonna change, but you can use technology to your, to your advantage.

Um, uh, I remember when I first started experiencing my transformation last spring, I had developed an unhealthy connection with social media myself. I spend way too much time. I was in a period where I was alone. Um, and, uh, going, it was a difficult time that led to an awakening. Uh, and when the awakening started, I’m like, you know what?

I’m on here every day. I’m gonna start using this in a way that’s actually more meaningful. So I started posting, yeah, intentions and affirmations in my story. And I, you know, that I did it for 92 days straight, is that right? And it 92 days and it redefined. I used what was, uh, an unhealthy habit. I repurposed it, uh, and it became, uh, something very meaningful.

So if you’re already on social, start following accounts that are resonating with the kind of person you wanna be, uh, right. Start following, uh, channels where the, the content is gonna be inspirational, uh, informational for you in terms of the journey that you’re on, and start repurposing some of that digital zombie time into meaningful content receiving time that may inspire.

And in that you may discover some people, uh, right, like-minded people that are also following those types of communities that you might start forming the beauty of around with the, the beauty of doing that, I know, uh, I did that with Instagram where I, I kind of unfollowed probably 150 200 accounts. I know you unfollowed me.

And, uh, and, and, and I began to follow some other, no comment. Yeah. . Well, maybe, uh, as I began to, oh, that was just an accident. I think that was, I don’t know what Instagram was doing that John followed me on all the platforms. See, and then as I, as I began to follow some of these, uh, uh, these accounts that maybe were mindset things or, or were really speaking, the algorithm kicks in and all of a sudden, uh, Instagram’s suggesting more of that and more of that and more.

And so suddenly now when I go through my Instagram feed, uh, every third post is something mindset related or something about relationship or, or anything like, but it’s incredible how that begins to change. And all of a sudden what began was a draining, uh, platform became, uh, an uplifting platform for me.

I think you can level up, uh, there’s, there’s a lot of pro empty hollow. We, we talked about rituals in the last episode. There’s a lot of, we, we, and we talked about the fact we’re all practicing something. Yeah. Right. It’s, it’s what are we practicing? And we talked about turning down the volume on those empty hollow practices that do nothing for us except pastime and distract us perhaps right from our, our, you know, some of the pain or some of the questions that we’re just not, uh, wanting to deal with, uh, turning down the volume on those hollow practices and turning up the volume.

Well, you can take a hollow practice and re transform it. Re you can transform it. It’s, it’s redirected, right? So if you’re, if you are spending tons of time on social, make it meaningful. Right. If that’s important to you. Um, but you may find your community there. I think getting involved in group activities that are meaningful to you or things that you’ve identified are meaningful to you, you may find your people, some of your people there as well.

I think also being open and approachable as a, as an individual is a key to finding your community. I think when, again, the more closed we are, uh, the, the right, it’s just very difficult to find your people if when they’re responding, uh, or sensing something, they’re tuning into a frequency and it’s, they’re, they’re, they’re, they’re ending up in your path and you’re closed.

Uh, You may miss the opportunity. Yeah. Right. You may miss it. The, uh, you know, again, it’s, it’s around the more you engage and it’s okay to test it out. You, you were, when you began to, you got right into the kayaking and the paddle boarding and, and what it, when things that you did is you joined some groups and then you would.

I remember you sharing about the, when you went out the one night where you just were like, well, I’m, I don’t wanna be alone to, I just, you know, I’m, I’m feeling lonely. I’m just gonna go out and just go paddle boarding with people. And, you know, you connected with some people and then some of those people became acquaintances, if not friends that you would go out with on a, you know, from time to time.

I don’t know if any of them became close friends, they just became, they were mute a, a connection around an activity. But you allowed yourself, you stayed open to that. And I think that it’s such, it’s, they’re so simple, but we sometimes be, I, I I, I, I’m talk about it many, many times. We’ve talked about the gym that I’m a part of.

It’s one of the communities, uh, we’re doing right. Uh, one of the things we do every uh, uh, uh, spring is a, uh, challenge called the Transformation Challenge. And, uh, the, the. The, uh, location I’m in has actually the, has the largest attendance for this thing in all of Canada this year. Uh, and at the whole group there’s 130 of us or whatever, are divided into two groups.

Team black, team Orange, go Team Black, uh, and, uh, and it’s, it’s two months. I wonder what team he’s part of. Yeah. Two month challenge, uh, around, and you’re doing classes together, you’re doing all of this kind of stuff. One of the most powerful, just connecting. And we’re commute. We have our own private group where we chatting and we’re all of this stuff.

Doing this stuff is what allows you to be open to finding those connections and to hearing that it’s just not, not every group you join, for example, the gym or even me, means that these people are gonna become part of your inner circle. No, when we’re talking about community, community is such a broad topic.

It can be everything from, uh, just being connected to people who share an interest, and that’s something you enjoy doing, and you do it with other people and you have a good time, uh, to your inner circle. These would be the closest people to you that are the most influential to your significant other, uh, you know, whoever that may be.

Like. Community has such, so many layers and depth. I think the, the, the closer you get, I think the, the more you start moving into, when we’re talking about the journey of transformation and becoming your best self, you gotta make sure that inner circle is, is aligned, right? You gotta make sure that, again, not perfectly.

But on a similar path, um, uh, because it’s gonna be very hard to stick to it if in your inner circle they don’t support this journey at all. Life is hard. Life has lots of hard bits. Right? Right. Like, and it’s, and so this is where community’s so important is it’s, you know, there’s times where we just need to survive.

And, and I think we all go through phases where like, my goal here is survival. I just want to keep surviving. But, but we’re, we’re worthy of more than survival. Right. Survival’s not, not the game. It’s not the goal game. It’s not the goal. The, uh, so how do we thrive and we thrive in community, and so we need to find that community.

So like, okay, what do you mean? I, I think a good community will encourage us, right? They’ll support us. Uh, they will be a model for us. I know there’s times where I, I see what you guys are doing. I. I think I could do that. I get to try that. And he hasn’t bought a Jeep though though yet. He hasn’t bought a Jeep yet.

No, no. That’s what I’m modeling for you. The, uh, buying proper vehicles, but the, uh, uh right. We could, we can do that. And I think done really, really well. Though this requires some, some good judgment is a good community will help us see ourselves more clearly. Mm-hmm. . Now why I said we need good judgment around that is there are so many communities that are trying to tell us who we are and what we ought to be already.

And that’s not good. But when we’ve got people who really care about us, who really see us and who are willing to say, hey, I know you can do more. I know you can play at a higher game. I know you’ve got more under the hood here. I, um, or I see what you did. I see what you’re working on. They, they can actually help us refine our view of ourselves, but we have to be very careful about who that is.

That is true inner circle. That is true partnership relationship piece there. Uh, because we’re, we’re not about to hand over the reins to say, how does the world see me? Right? Because there are so many agendas out there, and I think we need to be very careful about that as well. But those are so powerful that when it happens well in a good, healthy community, um, my goodness, that’s transformational.

And, and that. , you know, uh, magnifies everything we’re doing personally as well. It moves us so, so profoundly. So, so let me throw out, um, something for the two of you to comment on. Let’s talk about men. and community. We, we are three men on this podcast and, uh, that we’re ob obviously approached the world with as much an open mind as as possible, but we have a lens.

Mm-hmm. , uh, we have a male lens that’s just cuz that’s who we are. Uh, and we’re not apologetic about that. It’s, it’s who we are. Men in relationships is tricky. Men in friendship is tricky. Men in community is very, very tricky. Um, I think, uh, most men don’t have the kind of inner circle that we’re talking about here.

Yeah. You know, the where, what the old Jewish proverb that says, uh, uh, as iron sharpens iron, so two friends will sharpen one another, right? Uh, there’s this notion of support, love, acceptance and challenge, but done not trying to force you to be something that you’re not actually calling forth the most genuine version of you forward, um, right.

Calling you out in your bullshit if need be. And yeah. Challenging you, having those difficult conversations. But within that culture of acceptance, I think most, let me make this statement and I’d love to hear your thoughts on it. Um, most men have what I call pseudo community. What we get together, we have some beers, we talk about the game and work, and the kids, maybe the fam.

The family, it doesn’t often go much beyond that. I think a lot of men are very, very lonely. I think, I think women do this better than we do. What do you think? Yeah, I do think women do it better. And I, I, a lot of that goes back to the, even the episode we talked about feelings. Uh, I think, uh, we, we struggle with our ability to, uh, communicate, uh, uh, express our feelings.

Um, just look through, uh, the media often shapes, uh, a lot of the way people think. Uh, look at every, you know, all of the, uh, in movies and, uh, all of these, the superhero, right? The, uh, the action, the action hero, the, the man is always distant, you know, cut off, uh, not affected by, by emotionally. Emotionally, right.

Cut off, right? Uh, all of these things. And so from a, from the time we are, uh, little boys, We are trained and taught, uh, to, to basically dis, you know, to not show, uh, not be vulnerable, not to express, uh, these emotions, these, these softer emotions, uh, with, with, uh, other men. Yeah. Don’t get me started on soft skills.

What a Right, exactly. What a bad term for some of the most important skills you’ll ever learn, right? What a lazy term. What a lazy term. Soft skills. Somebody was lazy that day. Emotion. Yeah. Right. Uh, exactly. Even the language around this. And so, so we’re conditioned and I think the, so the first step to finding that is to recognize.

Uh, that, that we’re conditioned that way, that that is the belief that so many hold to you. See again, like a number of examples that we can see that in. Uh, I do think it’s there. It was interesting having a conversation with a, a, a friend of mine, uh, and he was telling me about, uh, his Wednesday, uh, evening group, uh, that he be began.

It began, it’s just, uh, it started out with one or two of his neighbors. They’d get together. Uh, guys would get together on Wednesday evenings and they would have a cigar, uh, and some whiskey together and they would just again, talk about whatever. And that’s now grown into, there’s about seven or eight of them on from the street that that’s Wednesday night.

You don’t miss Wednesday night. And it’s, and he said the conversations they have and the, the, the depth of, of what they talk about and their emotions, and this is their place. And I was like, wow. Amazing. That’s a’s a Wednesday night ritual. It’s a Wednesday night ritual. It’s moving beyond the surface conversations that can be so shallow and so empty.

That we hide behind? I think again, uh, uh, when we’re able to find our people where we can be vulnerable, we can be real. Where it’s okay to say, actually, no, I’m not doing okay. Uh, we talked to a previous episode, how most of the time, uh, when, when people, when we use, Hey, how you doing? , uh, what’s the response?

I’m fine. Uh, right. And it’s not even, we’re not even thinking we’re not fine. Uh, but it’s like, hello, hello. How are you? I’m fine. Like it’s, it’s at the level of just, I’m fine. I’m busy. Minute . We’ll talk about that one. Yeah. , uh, right. But we’re not actually, and I get, you’re not just going to, uh, you know, someone you barely know ask.

Yeah. You’re doing, we’re not suggesting you’re gonna stop them and share your whole life story. No. But you need people where you can say, actually, I’m not doing well right now. Uh, right. I’m struggling at work. Or, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m really struggl. Uh, perhaps in my relationship with my significant other, or I’m having this real challenge with one of my kids and where you can be real and then get support, advice, wisdom again, not, I, I know some folks are, are, are eager to give advice.

They love to give advice and, and that can be challenging, but this notion of having a safe, soft place to land. And I think for, for, for, for men, that’s, that’s difficult to find. It always great to hear where it’s being expressed, but I don’t think it’s the norm. No, it isn’t. It isn’t. No, I think fear. Is central in, in the struggle that a lot of guys have to, to reach out or to connect.

Um, and I think sadness is probably an epidemic among men. I mean, that’s, that’s my view on it. I, I, I don’t know, maybe it’s the internet’s there, it’ll find some stat that will prove that. Right. But the, uh, disaster track , I think, um, we’re not well equipped growing up to be given the tools to connect in authentic ways.

Uh, we’re not particularly well-equipped growing up to navigate and manage and understand our feelings and the purpose of those. We’re not, um, prepared or very good at being, bringing the level of vulnerability that’s required to say I’m not okay. And for that to be. . Right. And so to not be okay goes back to, I think this deep issue of self-worth, uh, that I think for men is also extraordinarily difficult.

A and so it’s these compounding layers that, that play out, that, that stop us from being a, being willing to take that vulnerable step to say, I’m not, I’m not okay. Or, or, dude, I need a hand. I, I don’t know where, I don’t know where to turn. I don’t know what to do. And, and I think that’s, you know, that’s something that, for me, being willing to do that is, is important.

Cuz I know there’s been times where I felt like I didn’t know where to turn and I didn’t know who to do, who to do that with. But it’s, uh, it’s so, so critical. There are groups popping up, right? I think that the need is becoming, uh, more and more, uh, you know, public and visible. And I think that’s important.

And, and it’s to recognize that we, we don’t have to be. Strong, whatever that is, in everything we can, we can be strong and weak at the same moment, right? Like, we’re complicated. Like we, we, we get this real binary or overly simplified caricature of what, what it means to be an adult male as opposed to a nuanced, rich, sophisticated, complex one, which is what we actually are.

And so everything gets boiled down to these, um, overly simplistic pictures of, of what it’s supposed to be, what it should be, and, and then the wheels fall off. . So, but I gotta tell you a story cuz I got invited to a group recently, a men’s mental health group. And, uh, there was this great exchange, you’ll love it.

The, um, this guy invited me. Oh, I thought you were unfall when you picked up. I thought you were following. I’m not gonna follow. Uh, and I just said like, I wanted to understand a little bit more and I just said, listen, I’m real. I, I’m really open to this, but I’m also careful with my time and commitments.

Can you give me a little bit more context? Uh, really appreciate it. And this guy said, oh, you’re most welcome. So this group was founded by a dead friend of mine recently after living through an awful hardship abroad. The idea is to have a comfortable, safe space for men to seek advice, vent, and ultimately have a voice.

And I thought that’s pretty good. And I said, thanks ma’am. And then I said, A dead friend or a dear friend and he’s like, oh no. Oh my God. Dear friend, l o l, he’s fine. He’s alive and well just going through a difficult time , I said, and one hell of an anecdote. He’s like, no kidding, . That’s awesome. That’s so good.

It was so good. But it was, and, and I’ve seen these guys just in the last week or so, put it out there. And, and keep reinforcing. Hey, if you need somebody to talk to you, reach out. I know it’s uncomfortable. I’m like, man, that’s beautiful. That’s beautiful. Even if you’re not, maybe the therapist they need or the skills, they’ve got to know you’re not alone.

You’re not alone. And that it’s okay. . Yeah. It’s okay to be hurting, to not have it all figured out, uh, for others to know that, and that it’s, you’re not diminished, you’re enriched. Well, well, and that just echoes or reinforces this notion that to truly connect with others, it starts with truly connecting with yourself.

Right? Uh, one, one of my core values is connection. Yeah. And it, uh, it’s, when I say, uh, I, I’ve mentioned before that your value should be evolving. I, I think your, your understanding of them evolves, right? Mm-hmm. , mm-hmm. . And for me, in, in recent months, uh, uh, or actually I guess, uh, late last year, um, reflecting on this notion, this value of connection, what does that mean to me?

It started as an external piece. I said, well, it means that I see you, I see others for who they are, and not some construct that I’ve made up in my mind, I see you for who you are. I hear you. I hear what you’re saying, and not what I want you to say. I hear what you’re saying. I listen deeply and I value and accept you as you are in this moment right now.

Not as some future self . And then the penny dropped . I know where this is headed me and not some con I listened what’s going on in here, uh, and not some made up message that’s been forced upon me and I value and accept me for who I am in this moment. And, and then recently I went and saw the avatar, uh, sequel.

Yeah. And the, you know, when the Navi. I see you and in the first, uh, movie, uh, the first avatar house, uh, Sully, uh, who’s the soldier turned right? Um, uh, wearing the avatar, being trying to get to know the Navi and he doesn’t get what they mean and his, the movie’s about his journey into understanding what I see you and I think in community, that is the notion.

You’re, you’re seen, you are heard, you are valued and accepted, but how can you offer that? Truly to someone else until you can offer it to yourself. So good. Uh, listen, where are I believe close to, if not over an hour, uh, for this, uh, episode? Oh, this is the Lord of the Rings Edition. Oh yeah. This is the Lord of the Rings.

Directors cut , the Directors Cup. Uh, there’s so much that we are going to talk about this for, continue to talk about when it comes to community, because we recognize it is essential to, uh, the journey, uh, in the right sequence. And, uh, we want to continue to explore that and talk about that. Uh, do wanna encourage you to check out our website, uh, to be able to go to living richly.me/act actt.

Uh, we’ll have links to, we’ve mentioned a number of books, uh, during the episode today. We’ll have links to all of those, uh, books if you want to take a look at them yourself, as well as some other resources that are there. So we encourage you to check out the website and just look around. There’s lots of information that we find on the website.

Uh, and in the spirit of community, share it out. If you’re enjoying these conversations and benefiting from them, your community may be closer than you think. And by re-sharing these episodes on your social media feeds and offering a few comments, your own sort of, uh, comments on them, uh, people that are in your network are very close to you, may, uh, may just start appearing.

So we encourage you to share them out. It’s that act of vulnerability. Put it out there. Right? It’s, uh, feel free to subscribe if you haven’t already. If you found this useful, if the, if something has struck a nerve for you, uh, subscribe, stay with us. Um, again, the, uh, refer, uh, the, uh, giving, giving it a rating, offering your thoughts is also huge for us.

It makes a big difference. So if, if you’ve heard it and you thought, you know what, other people should hear this too. This is useful. One of the best ways you can, we can raise it through the profiles on the podcast platforms. Uh, give it, give it a whatever star review you like. Uh, but that activity is actually really it.

A four, make it a five. Please make it a five. Five would be generous. But we want to, we, you know, we want to, we want to behave our way into that, that’s for sure. Often we behave our way out of it, sometimes not wrong. Thank you , for spending the time with us, uh, uh, today and, uh, throughout, uh, each of these episodes.

We look forward to continuing the conversation next time. Uh, and we will see you then.