Dare to Be Brave – The Hidden Secret to Living Richly

Dare to Be Brave: The Hidden Secret to Living Richly

E110: Dare to Be Brave
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Wendy: [00:00:00] Purge is really about the commitment to begin, no matter how messy you show up without the guarantee of success.

Kate: And I think so often we’re our worst critic and we’re so hard on ourselves and what if like you just started talking so much kinder to yourself and that’s what that was.

Rob: We often say we gotta find the right community.

You may have had the right community for the moment, and now as you grow and move into a different place, there may be a different community.

Eric: That’s the right community. Courage doesn’t always roar. Sometimes courage is the little voice at the end of the day that says, I’ll try again tomorrow.

Hey nation, welcome back to the Living Richly podcast. Today we’re talking about something that could be the game changer between playing it safe or taking a big leap of faith. So whether you are here looking for some help to make a bold move or maybe just that nudge you need to get outta your comfort zone, then this episode’s got you.

So grab your coffee, [00:01:00] settle in, and let’s get into it. Guys, let’s talk about courage today. ’cause I think it is one of the most important virtues for living richly and. Let me start by just saying fear is a thing. Yeah. Big thing. What? When you think about it, when I was reflecting on this episode, I’m thinking how often fear shows up in my life or in the conversations that I have, we, the conversations we have with friends, with clients, fear is like a serious blocker to potential and, living a great life.

So true. So, I’m curious as we start off was there ever a moment where fear nearly stopped you, but you went ahead anyway?

Kate: Yeah, like all the time. But if I’m gonna, I really, when I was like, when reading the question, I’m like, yeah, it shows up all the time. Yeah. I think like most recently, and the biggest one was get to mindset.

Yeah. To take a leap of faith to start my own business as I’m also starting joining another business was like, literally the. Fear, alarm bells are screaming, what are you doing? Like [00:02:00] it’s so for me that was a huge leap of faith because that was a passion for me. Yeah. And that’s something I really wanted to do.

And all I could think about was, what is everyone gonna think? And like the the scripts running through my head were, just so strong, so glad I did it. And I think I pushed through because, it was so connected to me and my purpose and my values.

Eric: Oh, I love how you connected it to purpose and values.

Yeah. What about you guys? I.

Wendy: I think for me, le leaving my job in the HR space just it was, I wanna say. My comfort zone because I was so just ingrained in it. And I had opportunities to stay in that space after the layoff, but that was where I choose to take the severance package and move into fitness and coaching full time and same thing, right?

It was at a time where I. Just bought a new home and, there’s so many reasons telling me no what are you doing? But I went ahead and continued to do it anyways. Yeah.

Rob: Yeah. That’s [00:03:00] so good. It really is. It’s that fear of the unknown, right? Yeah. And said the, false expectations appearing real.

Yeah. And I think similar to you. Say that

Eric: again. Fear, we’ve used that before. Fear as an acronym,

Rob: False expectations appearing real. We’re treating

Eric: something that has not yet happened as though it has. Yeah. And as a result, we often play the safe game. Yeah,

Rob: absolutely. And, what’s amazing is as you lean into living richly and what does it mean to live your best life, the shift happens where we can create any story we want about the future.

All: So we can

Rob: create a negative one. Or we can create a positive one. Totally. Neither has happened. And so it’s just in how you approach it, but certainly what to you, what you said Kate about Yeah, it happens all the time. This is the reality. Even as I’ve progressed and moved along the journey of living richly, there are still.

Days, maybe weekly. Yep. Certainly monthly. There are times when I’m having to come up against fear again. Yeah. And make a [00:04:00] decision on how I’m gonna approach. For me, probably a big one was similar to you leaving the church world where you, I wrestled with that for four or five years where I knew I was done.

Yeah. But I kept going at it because I had no, the idea of staying in what I knew. Was more comfortable than venturing out into something that was the unknown.

Eric: Of course. Yeah. I think it’s Susan Adler that said courage is not the absence of fear. It’s fear walking. Yeah. And it’s been one of my favorite quotes or meditations on the power of bravery.

And for me, courage is one of my. Four core values, personal core values. So this one is really close to home for me and I can certainly relate to leaving the church. Of course. Two, there’s been so many moments, it was really hard to choose here. Yeah, because there’s been so many moments where I was standing on the precipice of either playing it safe or making a bold move.

But the two that came to mind was launching my first coaching business. I did that in the midst of my first marriage falling apart and my life was a [00:05:00] complete disaster. And everyone was telling me, Deshaun, just go get a job. Like you’ve got kids to support and everything else. And, I knew I had to do this.

And more recently, since last year, re-envisioning our existing business and taking that. To a whole other level and facing off with fear and insecurity probably every single day. And yet knowing it’s the right thing to do. I think when we stare fear in the face and find the courage to move forward, and sometimes I think that’s gonna be in big, bold moves and other times it’s like micro moments of courage.

Yeah. Where we’re just taking an inch of a step forward. Every time we do that, we train ourselves to do hard things and we build the case for the fact. I can do whatever I set my mind to. I think that courage breeds faith and conviction, and that is worth absolute goals. Oh, I love that. I love in living our best lives.

Let’s, talk about how you guys define courage. Again, words really matter and we all tend to have our understanding of what something means. But how would [00:06:00] you define courage? And is it something you’re born with? Can it be developed? Let’s just explore that for a few minutes.

Kate: Yeah courage is about showing, for me anyways, it’s about showing up authentically, like showing up and moving through it.

And that’s, that for me is, as simple as it gets. Like fear is always going to be there. It’s how you move through the fear. That to me is, really the courage part. And I like, I don’t think we’re. Born with it. Do I think some people are more courageous than others? Yes. I think it’s learned. I think the more you practice showing up courageously, the easier it gets.

And I think it’s a trained skill that we learn over time. It’s the same thing as like tying your. Shoe did, and kids tie shoelaces anymore. I don’t even know. It’s like it’s

All (2): pulling the Velcro straps

Kate: together. That’s what it’s, I feel like now they just slip in and they’re, I know they have it.

So remember

Eric: how tough it was when we were kids learning to tie your shoes? They got it easy now. Oh my

Kate: God. The bunny ears. Anyway I do think we learn it over time. I think [00:07:00] it’s the same as tiny. Hundred percent.

Wendy: Yeah. Yeah. It’s like a muscle, right? Yeah. Like you have to continue to practice to train it.

And I think that the more we practice it, it can start to define the quality of our minds. Because. Courage is really about the commitment to begin, no matter how messy you show up without the guarantee of success.

Eric: Yeah. Yeah. Love that.

Wendy: Yeah,

Eric: love that. I have, I’ve only done this twice on the show.

This will be the second time I wanna read a short excerpt. This is pages, it’s only. It’s only about a seven page document, so settle in. Yeah, it’s gonna be about 20 minutes on. Guess your popcorn, this’ll be quick. But when I was defining my, when I define my core values, then the second stage would encourage everyone to do is what does that mean to you?

And this is what it means to me. For me, courage is about facing life, head on, not running from the tough stuff or burying my head in the sand. Courage is about facing and embracing my fear, my anxiety, and my uncertainty, and taking action anyway. It means holding fast in the storm and staying steady no matter what.

Life throws my way. Courage is [00:08:00] staying in the game, even when it seems like I’m losing or I just don’t feel like playing anymore. I. Most of all, courage is about leaning on the people closest to me, drawing strength from my community. In many ways, it’s about barring some of their courage to see me through inviting them to encourage me to put their courage into me.

It’s always my choice to make, and no one can make it for me, and yet I know I’m not in this alone. My courage will always be greatly enhanced and amplified when expressed in vibrant communion with my tribe. If there’s anything, my successes and scars have taught me over the years is that there’s always more strength and resilience to tap into.

If I’ll just dig deep enough. One author, put it this way, courage doesn’t always roar. Sometimes courage is the little voice at the end of the day that says, I’ll try again tomorrow.

Kate: Oh, I love that. That’s great. That’s great.

Rob: Yeah. So powerful. And, I’m gonna encourage him, we’ll try to remember to make a note of this as I’d like to share, put in the show notes, that exact excerpt.

[00:09:00] Yeah. So maybe we’ll just make sure, Hey, Steve, you’re here, right? Yeah. Alright. Maybe maybe we’ll ask Steve to just make a note to remind us of that so that we don’t forget afterwards. I think that would be, I think it would be great

Eric: to have that. So what’s great you we’re all on. We feel like on fire.

We’re on fire today. Yeah. So is our producer. Steve’s on fire. He’s always on.

Rob: Yeah. Yeah. A little too much energy. No, I love it. It’s great. So I love all of that. That’s such, again, it’s so powerful and I’ve you’ve shared that with me before. I think it’s such an incredible way of defining courage.

I, lean into what Kate, what you said earlier about courage is really about showing up authentically. When I ask, when I, where I might. Disagree or push back on is it something we’re born with or is it something we develop? The answer is yes. I think it is a bit of both.

And the only reason I say that is if the definition is about showing up authentically. You look at any 3-year-old, 4-year-old, five-year old and they do exactly that. They have no clue [00:10:00] that what they’re doing looks silly to they’re, they haven’t right yet. They haven’t yet embraced shame.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. And so in that context, they are absolutely showing up as themselves. Then we learn to embrace shame. And shame brings fear. Yeah. Which then holds us back from being courageous and then we need to develop it. So a lot of what we’re talking about when it comes to courage is going back to that inner child who is willing to just live life.

Fearlessly. Yeah. Yeah.

Eric: And get back to that. Yeah. Remember when your, first toddler started walking and it was so exciting. Yeah. And then a week in you go, I wish they’d go back to crawling. Because they’re fearless. Like they they, have no limitations or barriers.

And it could be. It’s pretty, pretty crazy concern. It’s so

Kate: funny with my oldest, he walked at nine months and I like, wanted him to walk so badly. And then my second I was like, no, we’re not. Take your time. Take your time. We’re not. And he was 15 months until he walked. Yeah. I was like, just take your time.

Because of that [00:11:00] fear. Yes.

Eric: Let’s talk about a maybe situation or a time in your life or an evolution where your understanding of courage changed or, morphed or evolved.

Rob: Yeah. I, for me, 30 years of believing that courage or that the idea that we needed to sacrifice self and that. Courage was, the more you were willing to give up of yourself, the more you were willing to be less.

That was courageous at all. Look at them willing to sacrifice anything. And from the church world, yeah, we talk about missionaries who would go into these tribes and these places in the world and they would. Sacrifice all of the comforts of home and all of this in order to go and reach an unreached people kind of thing.

And that was courageous. Where that has shifted dramatically to me now is courageous behavior, is embracing self. And again, as we’ve talked about, showing up authentically first and then being able to connect to other people. It starts internal [00:12:00] in how we love and own. Who we are Yeah. Is the most courageous act we can have.

Yeah. Love that.

Wendy: Yeah. I, and I have to, agree with that because Yes, when we think about courage or being courageous a lot of times people think it’s the big, bold moves and or taking like huge risks and, for me, it was a different shift where it was more about learning to ask for help and being okay with being vulnerable and realizing that I didn’t have to soldier alone or walk the journey alone.

And it was Okay. So therapy is a great example, right? Yeah. Learning to be vulnerable and, embracing that it’s okay to allow people in. And it’s okay to ask for support because that eventually helps you build up your courageous immunity to. Continue, like down that path of life. 100%. Yeah. It’s the

Kate: same for me.

It’s that. It’s that like courage isn’t always about putting your armor on. It’s not like you’re going into war all the time. It’s sometimes [00:13:00] about taking all the armor off. Yeah. And actually showing up in a vulnerable way. Yeah. That is equally courageous. Yeah. I think sometimes we think is courage is, Big, bold thing. And sometimes it can just be that really subtle, vulnerable moment. Yeah. It’s equally courageous.

Eric: Yeah. We’re gonna be exploring actually, different types of courage on today’s show, and I love that you’ve introduced that. I think for me, definitely it was I think like you guys more of an evolution than a moment.

It, I used to be like, I think many of you, the idea of courage was the, were these. Epic acts of bravery, right? And again, a story that always stood out for me as a young kid, right into, as long as I was in the church world, still a story that I love today is the story of David and Goliath, right?

This little 14-year-old kid, shepherd boy with a sling who takes out this like 10 foot. Tall seasoned warrior from the other side called Goliath and takes him out with one stone. What a story, but you set yourself up for pretty high standard, if that’s your definition of bravery, right?

It’s hard

Rob: to find 10 feet giant. The 10 foot giants

Eric: are hard to find, right? We’d have to go to the [00:14:00] world of wwe, FI think right? Or WWE now, whatever it’s called. But it’s, more understanding that it’s, I’m more about those micro moments of, courage now. And I do think those then prepare you for the bigger moments where you’re.

Are gonna have to like, launch a business or, leave a career or leave a, religious construct that you’ve been in your whole life. Like those are moments that you build up to but I don’t know if you have the courage to face those if you haven’t been doing the little stuff day to day. Even David killed a lion in a bear before he ever faced off with Goliath, and that’s what gave him the courage.

Again, I still read the story. I go, killing a lion and a bear is still a big deal. It’s, I wouldn’t exactly put that in a oh, just a little thing. He didn’t think

Rob: there was a lamb before that. Maybe not. They don’t even, maybe they don’t mention it. Maybe he was a serial

Eric: killer. I wonder if he was, bury those animals in the dad’s backyard.

Maybe. Kittens

Rob: so

All: much

All (2): got dark. Really? He started off the squirrels. He moved on to cats and then he was bearing bears and lions. [00:15:00] His dad’s back, and then humans, and then you, oh, you’re

Kate: watching

All (2): two Netflix. Oh my God. I gotta get on Netflix. I tell you it’s, really messing with me. God, we just do not send hate bail.

Eric: I love David. Still love David. He’s serial killer at all. He’s a great mythical figure, Bible figure, whatever you wanna call ’em. Okay. Let’s let’s shift gears before the entire religious community shuts us down. And, start exploring different types of courage. I’ll start with the most obvious one, which is often what we I think most people see as courage, which is physical courage.

This is about facing here. Fear. Head on. Think of I just rewatched a great documentary on nine 11 and all the first responders everyone was trying to run was we’re trying to get outta the building. So they’re running in. Yeah. And firefighters, that’s their thing. Think of the firefighters right now in la running into the fire as opposed to away from it. But tell me about a time perhaps where physical courage showed up for you.

Kate: Yeah. I’m gonna use [00:16:00] the example of bungee jumping and because for me that was like, it was a really difficult mo. I’ve jumped out of a plane. Yeah. And I had not nearly the same amount of fear then bungee jumping.

Wow. And I bungee jumped first. So jumping out of a plane, if you’ve never done it the first time, you’re anchored to someone else, right? Like you’re attached to someone else. Yeah. You a doingand. Yeah. Thank you. That’s. Together. Also together you take together

All (3): Your, bungee cordy, this anyway, you’re together you’re, hooked together.

Kate: But they’re like, they’re the ones in control, like they put, push you, they walk you over. They’re not like pushing you out of the plane, but they’re ready and you’re gone. Like you can’t really do anything. Plus when you jump on a plane, it was cloudy. I can’t see the ground. But when I was bungee jumping, I did the one in Wakefield, not far from Ottawa.

Like it’s over a quarry. Like you literally have to step off of this ledge and. Every sense in your body is you’re going to die. Don’t do it. Do not

All: do this. [00:17:00]

Kate: So like I, it was a battle for me to figure out can I actually, and you might say that’s a bit of a mental piece too, but physically my body, it’s like there was like a wall in front of me and I couldn’t step off ’cause it was just me and I had to take.

That.

Wendy: Oh,

Kate: that leap. And I still, I can feel the tingles in my feet and I scream the whole way down.

Eric: But,

I wonder now if not that you might wanna do it again, but doing it a second time, no. Now you wouldn’t wanna do it again. But I remember years ago I was part of this leadership exercise and part of it one day was repelling down a 90 foot cliff.

Now I’d never repelled before. So they’re teaching all of us, like getting us into our harnesses. And they’re, and as they’re getting us ready to do this they’re, explaining to us how powerful the gear is, how important. Important. The gear is that literally you could suspend a minivan off the same rig that I’m going to be relying on to go down the mountain.

So they’re, of course, they’re doing this to, build confidence. But you’re still, I remember backing up to the edge of a cliff.

All: It’s the worst. So imagine

Eric: you’re backing up to the edge of a cliff. Your body’s going, [00:18:00] what the fuck are you doing? Yeah. Like your fear, your Amy great. Everything’s fine.

Whatcha doing? And I remember I went to step. You’re supposed to then just fall into that position where you sit into the right off the edge. And I didn’t, I fell on my ass and then had to push myself with my feet and went down. And I, once I got my stride, I was like, okay. By the end of the day I was having so much fun.

Now, so what was fearful at the beginning, once I learned to trust the gear, at the end of the day, they said, Eric we’ve been watching you, you’re doing pretty good. Do you want to try it? Ozzy style? And I said. What is that? He says we put the harness on you backwards, and instead of going repelling down with your butt towards the ground, like you’re backed you literally run down the face of the mountain facing the ground.

So you’re, literally running just like that down the face of the cliff. I have never had so much fun in my life, but it’s what again, what starts as something fearful when you learn to trust the gear. Yeah. All of a sudden I think you can do things that are a lot more,

Kate: so I. I will [00:19:00] say that the second I was done, all I wanted to do was do it again.

All (2): Yeah.

Kate: Now like it was before kids, so where it’s 20 years later, I’m old now, like I’m just, I don’t wanna do it again, but I will say the moment right after, yeah. Once you pushed through. The fear for me was like, high adrenaline, I’m in, let’s go, let’s do this. It was that. Do this again. Yeah. Love for sure.

This. Yeah.

All: I both of you.

Wendy: I’ve never bungee jump, never jumped out of a plane. And I don’t know if I could that’s where even just hearing you talk about it, those, the physical, when we’re talking about physical fear. Yeah. Already I feel like, oh, my stomach’s like I don’t. So it’s amazing how the body responds to even just hearing people.

Talk about it. 100. Yeah. Yeah. Like ITI

Kate: tingle, but it’s a memory for me for sure. Yeah, You just, you’re just tingling.

Rob: She’s, yeah. The, tingles, the tle, she got the tingles, she got the TI

Wendy: think that the physical, for me, I related to my accident seven years ago and just being able to tie the.[00:20:00]

Physical fear of, even though I don’t remember anything that happened, the physical fear of all of the scripts in my head, or how am I gonna come outta this on the other side? And part of that is the self-talk in our heads on. And I think that played a huge role in why I recovered as quickly as I did.

Yeah. It’s amazing how often, because

Rob: You, referenced this as well when we talk physical courage, how much of physical courage is still mental? Oh, yeah. How big together For sure. It really is around the mind body

Eric: connection is

Rob: in some, yeah. It’s huge. And, you talked earlier about firefighters and first responders and how they, run to Yeah.

When we run away from That’s mental for them. Yeah. It’s trained behavior that they have done over and over again so that it, just happens without thought.

All: Yeah.

Rob: They just, it triggers and they go. Yeah. And that’s a, so I think a lot of our. Physical courage has to start with training [00:21:00] the brain.

Eric: Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. I still remember I was in my early twenties when I launched my first church. This is back another lifetime ago. Didn’t even have a fully formed frontal lobe. I had no. Training for this, but we were an inner city church in a bad part of town. I remember facing off with things like death threats from drug dealers.

And I remember death threats from one particular pimp because we were helping a girl get off the street, get off drugs, and he was threatening my life. We used to have I had to have bouncers at the church that watched out for me. ’cause people literally tried on more than one occasion, physically attack me in the building.

Young 20 something, right? It’s crazy helping people with severe addiction issues, severe mental health issues, who could go off the handle at any moment in time. So facing off with that, like I, it’s funny I walk downtown now with folks sometimes and they’ll see a, someone who’s homeless or whatever, most people cross the street, go the other way, and I walk by and I say hello and engage with them.

Again [00:22:00] it’s condition now it’s conditioning, right? When you, yeah. I, always say to just look in the eyes, you’ll know whether you should go the other side of the street or whether, you can engage. That’s training. It’s training.

Kate: And that’s interesting ’cause my conditioning as a woman is don’t go near, don’t make iTech and cross the street.

And that’s my condition. Yeah, of course. Yeah, of

Rob: course. Yeah. And I, think it ties in you and I with the same background, me with bikers and Yeah. The idea of some of the stuff and the experiences I’ve had. I remember the first time walking into an outlaw. Clubhouse. Yep.

Whereas I, it got to the point

All (2): hey everybody.

Rob: Hey, whatcha doing over there? Hey you guys look like you’re in a really right. But no, but it, and it is for most people it is a scary thing or going to a bike event where you’ve got, again, a whole.

Bunch of club members standing around and literally walking in where you’ve got their prospects and the hang arounds, they see you as an outsider, they get right in your face and you have to show strength [00:23:00] back. Yeah. So there were so many experiences like that and, to your point, it’s a condition that, a conditioning that as you get more comfortable with it, I don’t even bat an eye when it comes to that today.

Eric: Love that. Love that. And I think again before we shift to the next one we talk often, even when we talk about the four elements of earth being, body, fire, being heart water being mind, and wind being spirit, that for a lot of folks, their journey begins often with the earth element where they push themselves.

Take. Like someone who starts to get into shape, starts to push themselves. It’s amazing when you push yourself physically beyond the fear and the false limitations that you’ve accepted about what your body can do, that all of a sudden your mind goes, oh, I wonder what else I can do. Yes. So again, it’s those, that micro revolution.

Let’s talk about moral courage. This is about standing up for what’s right even when it’s not popular. Yeah. This is like staying true to your values. If even if doing that might even means that you stand alone, how does that show up for you?

Rob: For me, I [00:24:00] know it was. Interesting. When, I saw that question I went right back to the very first place that I was a, just a young pastor.

Literally right outta bible college. We’ve just had the opportunity in the last few weeks. We were in that area for a hockey tournament. Wow. And it was, and so I actually, we drove by and I showed her the first church that I ever worked in. Did you have getting little bit of down in front of, on the burst, the flame burst?

In the parking lot I felt eat and but I, it’s like

All (2): a

Rob: vampire, right? Totally. Like a vampire hitting the sunlight. Like poof. Yeah. Yeah. But I remember coming outta bible college, outta seminary and I was just, I was ready to change the world. I was excited. I had all the cause and purpose. And then I go into this first place, part-time position.

And this church is a complete division, like literally where people who support the pastor at front of the church, bunch of. Of empty spaces. And then the people who want the pastor gone like complete division. [00:25:00] And I had a board member, my very first board meeting, a board member turned and pointed a finger right at me and said, you better get behind us, or we’re coming after you next.

Wow. Wow. And I remember talking to my district, he was like, what do I do what I do? And he made this statement he said, if you, he said, unless there’s a moral issue. With the pastor you will never go wrong if you show loyalty and stand with the people that you are working with. Wow. And I, remember doing that recognizing I may lose my job, but it may be by my whole ministry.

My whole career might be over before it started. But I remember making that stand and saying, no matter what you say to me, I am going to stand with the pastor. ’cause what you’re doing is wrong. And that has kept. To me, the loyalty piece to stand with the people that I believe are right has, that was a phenomenal lesson.

Although it was horrible at the time to go through that, and

Eric: I, couldn’t help. As you were talking about that thinking of love God, love your neighbor. Wow. That was like, yeah, no, it was, we’re coming after you next. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was literally,

Rob: that was

Eric: the phrase, wow. [00:26:00] Forgot like death threats in church.

Kate: Yeah. For, oh no, go ahead. You wanna go? You can arm wrestle. Go. Should we arm wrestle?

Eric: Yeah, arm wrestle right here on the show. We’ve never done this First time live. I’m gonna let on the Living Richly podcast in this corner.

Kate: I’m, gonna let Tingly go.

All (2): New nickname over to Tingley.

Wendy: I was gonna say, I, I don’t have specific exam, although I’m sure I could think of one, but. I think in the course of my HR career, there were so many times from an HR capacity because my, my, my role was around employee relations and being that middle person between supporting the business and supporting the employee.

So, many times where I really had to stand Yeah. Firm in whether it’s letting somebody go or on the opposite side, supporting the employee and helping the business understand why despite yeah. Not being a popular person sometimes in that role. [00:27:00] And then, as a parent I think there’s so many times as parents where we make decisions and our kids don’t like us.

And, you see it more and more these days where. Parenting has shifted because for a lot of parents, they’re just too exhausted to get into the or to just explain, just, it’s just easier to say yes. And I know many times I’ve made decisions with my girls and I’m not the popular parent and I am and it’s standing firm and having the courage to know that at some point they will understand why I said or did, what I did. Set the boundaries. Yeah. Set the boundaries. Yeah

All (3): Yeah. One love that.

Kate: I love that too. The parent one always gets me, always. I for me the example, like there’s a lot, like I had a hard time picking one ’cause it does show up. I went back to when I, early in my [00:28:00] career, early thirties, no kids.

I worked in an industry that was predominantly males. As it was 20 years ago. All around the table the boardroom table was men and then there was me and I was. 30 and young and whenever a little hothead I will,

All: I was, we all in twenties come on

Kate: a little. Yeah. But I had someone who was technically my peer, but he had been there he is near retirement, so I can, I get his perspective a little more now, but he, frankly couldn’t.

Didn’t know what to do with me. Now I look back at it with different lens. He just didn’t know what to do with me. But instead, he was condescending, he was rude. He would keep me outta meetings. It just got super, super unprofessional. It was never anything other than that, but to the point where I couldn’t work with this individual.

The condescending nature, like I had never been spoken to that way, and I remember just like you’re young, like what am I, my morals are telling me this is really wrong, so what do I do? So I did what I would normally [00:29:00] do and I went direct to the person, which was hard enough to do when he’s senior and he’s male and I’m junior.

So I did that, didn’t do anything. Then I go to my boss and my boss is we’ll deal with him. And I’m like I’ve tried that. My boss did nothing. Another male. Sorry, I’m not, but it, that’s just how it was back then. Then I went to HR Women. True. And then HR stepped in. So Wendy, similar to your story where HR had to help navigate this scenario, it just shouldn’t have been a scenario.

Yeah. But morally I was so torn on do I speak up and stand up for myself? Because he hasn’t harassed me. Isn’t sexually harassed, is it, oh, am I making this? Am I overreacting? Is this. Morally it was wrong. And it, nobody should be talked to in that tone in a workplace. Yeah. And so I in the end we worked it out.

He retired and

Eric: yeah,

Kate: I didn’t

Eric: I think you bring up a great point. I think there’s, we often don’t speak up because we’re afraid of. The cost a hundred percent. But we’re, often not [00:30:00] considering is the price of silence, of saying nothing, doing nothing. This one I’m, really familiar with and struggled again to find a specific example.

’cause for as long as I can remember, as a young teenager. Standing up for what I believed in. Yeah. And that was of course mixed in with my upbringing and the, world that I was in at the time. But I think it was part of who I am, just in my wiring, that if I believed strongly in something, I would stand up for it.

I struggled to do that in my personal life, in my closest relationships, but when it came to standing up for issues or for other people, that’s. I’ve found myself many moments standing alone trying to defend or champion something, and I look back now like you, and a lot of that was misguided and I would probably have handled it very, differently, but I always did the best I could with what I had at the time.

But what it helped me with is is develop discomfort with standing alone. I’m okay. Yeah. Standing alone. And I think if we’re not able to do that, if we don’t develop [00:31:00] that muscle, yeah. Then we are handicapped in some ways. We’re limited because we always are depending on the. Approval and and encouragement of others and them giving us the rubber stamp.

And sometimes no one is seeing the way forward, but you, and we are the experts at our own lives and often worrying for others to give us the marching orders. It’s no, nobody else knows you like you. And you gotta get comfortable. And I think this is such an important one for leaders. Think of the leaders that we work with, Rob, and how often they compromise the future of their business because they’re afraid to stand alone in leadership.

And now we’re, we encourage collaborative leadership, we encourage high performing teams, but even in the highest performing teams, in the best cultures, leaders sometimes have to say, guys, I get that you’re saying this, but this is what I’m seeing and we need to go this way and here’s why. The willingness to do that.

That’s moral courage.

Rob: Yeah. And I a hundred percent agree, and I think that the balance there, when you get comfortable and willing to stand [00:32:00] alone, when you’re willing to be able to do that, you are then able to now receive the guidance and the feedback from your trusted circle. You still.

After you get that guidance and feedback, say, I to you what you just said, I hear what you’re saying. I still, this is the direction I need to go and this is what I need to do, but you do it. Where I think is the, mistake that some make is they think that’s, I’m willing to go alone means I’m not willing to listen to anyone else.

And that’s such a, that’s not what we’re saying here. No, not at all. It’s not at all. It’s, I’m so open to hearing from the right sources, the trusted sources. And I’m willing to go alone.

Eric: But finding trusted sources that are actually willing to risk with you is quite rare. The vast majority of our closest relationships be it family being friends, will seek to protect us and keep us safe.

So you start talking about making a bold move. I’ve often said to people careful who you share your dream with. [00:33:00] When it’s in that embryonic stage, because if you go to family and friends, they are well-meaning they love you, they want to keep you safe. They will probably shit all over your dream and, get you to pick the safe option.

And that’s not malicious, but theirs fear is showing up for them and the only way they know how to deal with it is to dial you back. So make sure that in that trusted circle, you’ve got some people that are willing to say, yeah man, let’s go right and, give you some input, give you some feedback, but are willing to throw gasoline on that fire and not water.

Yeah. Wholeheartedly. It’s, I think it’s so important. Whole

Rob: other

Eric: topic.

Rob: Whole other topic.

Eric: Yeah. Whole done on that one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Your circle really matters. Show me your friends. Show me your fut. I’ll show you your future. You introduced this moment ago before we got into the different types.

You start talking about emotional courage. The willingness. To be vulnerable, the willingness to ask for help. I think guys really, struggle on this front. But it is a form of courage that is so, important. Can you talk about a moment in your life where [00:34:00] that really showed up and was really meaningful for you?

Kate: Yeah. I. I wanted to share a different lens. ’cause probably the most vulnerable it’s ever shown up is with myself,

All: right?

Kate: And that’s in COID. When the only time that, not just me alone, but everyone was forced to stop and pause. And I had the situation where I was actually alone. ’cause my kids would go back and forth.

So try spending seven days alone and you can’t go anywhere and you can’t see anyone. And it like. You talk about I understand now more in therapy when they say take time and pause. But that was a mega pause for me. And so I had to truly get vulnerable with myself. And it was an exploration of like, forgiving myself loving myself unconditionally.

Like the, work you do when you look in the mirror and you’re like, I love you and I love my body, and like that work is what healed so much. Of my, history, my wounds. And so for [00:35:00] me, being vulnerable with myself, and it might sound odd, but like I had never been like that with myself. So to have that was such a such a gift.

And I think so often we’re our worst critic and we’re so hard on our. Yeah. And what if like you just started talking so much kinder to yourself and that’s what that was for me. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

Eric: Vulnerability starts at home, right? Yeah. If you can’t, if you can’t get honest with yourself, how can you possibly get truly honest and vulnerable with other people?

Yeah. It does begin with that. I love that. Love

Rob: that. It’s, and it’s interesting ’cause if we go back to the opening of their show, we talked about courage being that showing up authentically. So emotional courage is showing up authentically with our emotions, right? Yeah. And when you think about that, you then have to first understand and know and be true and vulnerable with what they are.

Yeah. I think sometimes people take this and in a misguided way, they think it’s vulnerability is just sharing all my deep, dark secrets with the world. I think for a lot of people that [00:36:00] has to be, Hey, TikTok, here it comes. That’s it. And it, actually becomes attention seeking.

Becomes a very different reason and purpose for why we do that. I think when you do get to that point of being able to, Hey, this is I’m hurting and this is, here’s what’s going on in me, and now be able to share out of that, not looking for somebody to now meet that emotional need, but to hear.

What the emotional, what is going on is a very different type of vulnerability. Yeah. And to maybe not

Wendy: even fix it. I know for women, sometimes when we share our emotional vulnerability from a man’s perspective, I’m gonna fix it for you. But, and that’s just that’s what we do.

That’s what we do. What how can I fix it? How can I fix, how can I make it? Sometimes it’s I don’t need to be fixed. I just, I need you to just listen. Yeah. You need to be heard. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Love that. Yeah. I think on the emotional piece it’s when I separated from my girl’s father because I, [00:37:00] I made the decision, but I also suffered the repercussions of, I broke up the family.

I wasn’t, I was not the good parent anymore. I wasn’t the fun parent. And even when they chose to live with their dad full time, of course, I, accepted it because I wanted they’re old enough to make their own decisions. But I’ve learned, especially over the last six months to speak openly to them about how certain actions, decisions, behaviors that they exhibit.

Hurt me.

And that’s an uncomfortable conversation for them ever because now they can’t hide behind TikTok on their phones when I’m having a conversation with them. Yeah. And, but it’s become and, with help through therapy and lots of conversations we’ve had, I’ve been able to, even when my voice shakes and I’m crying and, but I’ve been able to share that emotional side on, having courage [00:38:00] to do that. Wow. Yeah. Super powerful.

Eric: That’s,

courage exemplified right there when you’re able to get that. Honest in that real, in an effort to deepen the connection Yes. And help someone understand what this is, what’s so for me, yeah. For me, that journey started a long time ago, although it would take me most of my adult life to figure it out.

As a young leader who was in way over his head and didn’t have the tools it didn’t take me long in my late twenties to go something’s not good here. Something’s not right. And so I began reaching out. And I remember many conversations, some that were tremendously helpful, some that backfired in my face and made me almost sorry that I had tried, right?

But I, knew there had to be a better way. And so a lot of moments of emotional courage showed up there in sharing my struggles and sharing my journey. Maybe it was fueled by desperation, but courage is fueled by different things, right? But I think the most significant event for me was in [00:39:00] 2011.

And I’ve told the story on the show. Jim, my mentor, had reached out to me months before, Hey, I haven’t heard from you in a long time. How are you doing? What? He didn’t know that it is. In that moment, my marriage had fallen apart. I was probably at the lowest I’ve ever been in my life, and I was so ashamed of being where I was.

I couldn’t even respond, and it took me four months. To work up the emotional courage to just respond to his email, say, I’m not good. I probably have never been worse. And I remember I just had a conversation this week with another leader who was struggling and I was referring to Jim and I made I’ve made this statement before.

Jim saved my life. He got me on a path and taught me the importance of staying open and working through those issues. I think men really struggle on this front. They’re really, and if I can say anything to any of the men listening you if you struggle to be to show up this way, it’s half your gear.

Is not even working. You’re not living a [00:40:00] rich life. You’re living a life that’s shut down. And like black and white instead of color. Yeah. Taking those little steps of courage to open up to your partner, to open up to your, friend about some of the things that you’re, your.

You’re afraid about or you’re hurting about. Yeah. Can make such a difference in, experiencing then someone who hears you and loves you and accepts you. And, it may backfire on you when you share it with certain people and that’s okay. ’cause in those moments, you’re still building courage.

You’re still working the muscle. It’s like there’s some days at the gym you feel like you’re on top of the world and there’s other days it feels like it’s on top of you. But you showed up, right? You showed up. You did the workout, you got, I think it’s very, similar to that. Let’s talk about another one.

And man, we could talk about this stuff all day long, but social courage, this is about stepping out into the social arena that’s either getting into a group, you’ve, you’re new to speaking up in a meeting or the willingness to, again, stand apart from the crowd. And it’s somewhat [00:41:00] similar to moral courage, but this is really tied to relationships.

How has that shown up for you?

Kate: Living richly for me. You guys are all such assholes. Alright. Okay. You heard it here folks? Yeah. You’re heard to

Eric: hear you’re heard it here first. I’m kidding.

Kate: No. But in, in all seriousness, living richly was for me, so far out my comfort zone. Like here we are talking about very personal things.

You talk about being vulnerable in a public forum. For me that’s different. It’s outside of my comfort zone. It’s not. I’m a very private. Person. Yeah. And so to have this forum knowing we’re helping people is, obviously what really drives me. But that was really uncomfortable for me. Yeah.

Just to know that we’re I think what makes it easy is it’s the three of you who are, anything but assholes for the record. It’s such a loving, warm. Steve, on the other hand. No, I’m kidding.

Eric: Whoa.

Kate: I’m on fire. I just, I have to, it was easy. So

Eric: many things you’re learning here [00:42:00] personally.

Yeah. Wow.

Kate: I’m getting, but to have such a warm, inviting space is what makes it so easy, but for me, that really is not, it’s very out of character, if I can put it that way. And it felt very raw. Like for me, it took courage to be able to sit around a table and talk the way we do. Yeah.

Wendy: Yeah, a hundred percent. Remember when we all recorded our. Personal episodes. Yeah, How uncomfortable. Yeah. And I remember both of you saying just how. Har Hard’s not the right word, but I guess Hard. Hard. Yeah. No, I’m just trying to think of another word that ties to the hard,

Eric: it was my idea.

It was my idea. It’s a dumb idea. We record the first one and we recorded a bunch of episodes and I said, guys, I’m not ready. I’m gonna do mine the next time. I, so it was my idea and I, and then about, then you bailed and

Rob: then when, you did it. Like it’s one of the first and only times I’ve seen Eric where the shaking Yeah.

As you told your story. And I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. It’s very hard to be vulnerable for I was hard. Yeah.

Wendy: And it’s, I was so exhausted and even though I had shared my story [00:43:00] publicly before, there was something very different about. Sharing it on the podcast. Oh, I don’t know why. Yeah. Way. Yeah. So anyways, yeah.

Just to your point. Yeah. I think I, know as I’ve when I talked about shifting my career and whatnot, there’s been the odd social comment over the years around who does she think she is or she got she, got so lucky. And I’ve said on another episode before fuck luck.

It’s. Really about, I’ve learned to be able to stand in my truth and I’m not gonna make everybody happy and that’s okay. As long as I know that I’m leading with a servant heart, to me that’s more important than, judgment. Yeah. Yeah. And I say that and it sounds easy, but it’s.

You had mentioned earlier, it’s trained behavior. Yeah

Eric: Yeah. For, again, this one is one that I’m, I’ve familiar with for, a long time. I remember when I took a stand for my faith as a young teenage teenager I had my own expression of faith that had come outta being raised in [00:44:00] it.

And I lost my whole friend group. Literally overnight years later, I would, when I left the church world, I lost my entire social network. Like you talk about going from. Having a lot of people around you to, to the silence was deafening. Yep. And so I, I’ve experienced that many times throughout my life.

And again, as I said earlier, it’s that, that meant a lot of loneliness. I’ve dealt with a lot of loneliness throughout my life. And I used to despise that about, my life. And now I’ve really learned to embrace it. It’s ’cause it’s developed a superpower in me that if I believe in something.

It’s clear to me that I have to do it. I have, I’ve built the muscle to stake. Yeah. Yeah. Whether you come with me or not, like I’m a collaborative guy. I want people to go with me. I, wanna take them along. But it’s no I’m going like, this is something I’ve gotta do. And if it means I have to walk alone or I have to walk with, I may lose some friends or lose some minute loose.

Seen that in [00:45:00] recent years. Like friendships change. When you make decisions to move, ahead. And I think again we, the power of community we talk about it all the time. Yeah. It’s important to surround yourself with the right people but understand that not everyone can follow you along every stage of the journey.

Yeah. Some are with you for a season, some are with you for a reason and a very, probably a really small few are with you for a lifetime. Yeah. And

Rob: even good communities change over time. And I think that’s the important it doesn’t mean that we often say we gotta find the right community.

You may have had the right community for the moment. And now as you grow and move into a different place, there may be a different community. Yeah. That’s the right community. Yeah. And I think that’s important. Community’s important. The same community is, we’re just not gonna travel in the same community our entire life.

Exactly. Yeah.

Eric: Exactly. Let’s shift gears. We could, there’s so many other forms of courage. We talk about spiritual courage, we talk about intellectual courage. We would need like a whole part two. But I want you to imagine you’re, you could go back in time, right? Where you have a [00:46:00] time machine. And you heard it here first. We have a time machine. So many firsts today. Yeah. We’re to have an episode. Just all the highlights of all the firsts and weird shit that showed up on today’s show. But we have a time machine. You can go back in time to, let’s say your early twenties. What advice would you give yourself when it comes to being brave and showing up courageously?

Rob: I, for me I, don’t even know if I would bring up courage. I would bring up again, the notion of just own, be true to you. Love yourself. Be authentic to yourself, embrace yourself. And if I could teach my younger self to do that courage will just happen. I don’t need to talk about courage with them.

If I can talk about, ’cause that’s been the biggest challenge for me, is learn to have your voice, all of that. Courage will come naturally. Yeah. I’m like,

Kate: it’s similar. I think I would instill confidence in myself. Yeah. And I think the confidence can lead to courage. I was like a crazy, like not twenties.

I’m like, [00:47:00] like such a shy kid, which seems odd now for people who meet me now. They’re like, you don’t seem shy at all. But I was like painfully shy. I would just go back and wanna instill just just say to myself like, you’re good. You’ve got this, you’re amazing. All those things I just didn’t hear.

And I think that would’ve resulted in greater courage when I was younger. Yeah.

Wendy: I think reminding myself that, and I tell my daughters this. All the time you can do, be, or have anything you want. Yeah. As long as you’re true to you.

Eric: Yeah. Love that.

Wendy: Yeah.

Eric: Yeah. I think if I went back I would say to my younger self you’re, stronger than you think.

You’re gonna go through a lot of trials and tribulations, but don’t lose heart. These are preparing you for your life’s work and never lose sight of it. Probably what I always said. What’s the most surprising thing you’ve learned about yourself as you’ve. As you’ve shown up bravely in different seasons of your life.

Wendy: I think it’s about the [00:48:00] confidence that I’ve gained versus always looking for the outcome. ’cause sometimes the outcome isn’t what we expect it to be or what we think it’s gonna be. And that can feel different than expected. But what can you take from that? And I know for me, that’s the confidence piece that I can apply to every little piece of my life.

Eric: I love that. I love that. It’s not about the outcome, it’s about what it produces. Yeah. The process produces in you. Yeah

Rob: Yeah,

Love it. What about you, Rob? I, think the thing that I’m learning more and more today is I’m a tough motherfucker. I would’ve just said the latter part, yeah, exactly. We’re swearing up a swear. It’s an adult show. Come on, it’s an adult. Exactly.

All (2): Even an adult

Rob: audience. No, when I tell my story and, for the longest time, I really didn’t give myself credit for when I look at the storms and the things that I have faced head on. We’re recording this episode.

It’s not gonna come out on this day, but we’re recording this episode on the anniversary of my [00:49:00] daughter’s death. I’ve this is a week of reflection for me. It’s, also the week that my mom the anniversary of my mom’s death. But I look at my dad being in prison when people hear the story of what I’ve gone through with a dad in prison who literally was breaking outta prison and coming after a family to all of the stuff that have gone through.

And that I’m standing, and not just standing, but that my outlook on life is one that is positive and life giving. And I’m, not I’ve moved away from being an optimist to a realist. Thanks, to Ben Bergeron. But still I am much more an optimistic. Outlook on life than pessimistic. And most people with even half of the trials or tribulations that I’ve gone through would be buried in that.

In the victim mindset. Yeah. And I think that’s the, I, it’s really only been in the last couple years I’ve started to say no bring it on. Yeah. I, can face anything. Yeah. I love that. Because nothing is what is. As difficult as what I’ve already faced in life.

Eric: Yeah, I love that. I’ve, said on the [00:50:00] show, and I’ve said to you many times the trials and tribulations I’ve been through, they’ve just, one thing I’ve learned about myself is you, I’m one tough son of a bitch, right?

Yeah. Every hardship, every challenge just makes me stronger, makes me more focused, makes me more determined. You might remember this phrase, it was common in church days, right? I’d rather. Wear out right and rust out. I’m determined to not do either, either of those things. I’m not I’m not gonna wear out.

I’m not gonna rust out. I’m gonna shine bright and stay strong and live richly every fucking step of the way. I think the more we face life head on, every time we stare down fear and we take the step, all we teach ourselves is, I can do this. And to your point now, it’s like the world that the Yeah.

There’s nothing we can’t do. The potential is limitless.

Kate: Yeah. And I think it’s. Recognizing that it’s hard. But still doing it,

Eric: right? Yeah. Like

Kate: we can see that it’s hard, but that, hard doesn’t feel as hard as it maybe once did.

Rob: Yeah. Yeah. Hard is not an excuse.

Kate: Yeah. Yes. Hard is

Rob: just a reality.

Said. [00:51:00] And it’s supposed

All (2): to be hard. Whoever said it, course life is hard. Whoever said it was supposed to

Eric: be easy. And I think I, I was thinking reflection for another show, so I’ll save that for another show. But I think comfort is one of the great. Pandemics of our day.

People are so comfortable. We want life to be easy. Yeah. And life isn’t. So we have this expectation that somehow that’s outta whack. And yet you study the life of anyone who’s ever done anything significant and they, were just, they hard everybody else. Except instead of saying, oh, poor me, and yeah, no, they just one step at a time, one day at a time, one decision at a time.

They made mistakes and they went forward and backwards and just like we all do. But the more we lean into showing up courageously, the stronger we show up, the greater the impact we can make. It’s supposed to be hard. It’s supposed to be. Alright, guys, final round for our listeners. Okay. This has been a good one, an amazing conversation.

One of my favorites in a long time. I love them all, but I really like this one. Probably ’cause this is one of my core values probably so it. [00:52:00] Really jazzes me up. But fi if you were to leave final advice to our audience to our listeners about the subject of daring to be brave,

Rob: living your best life and living courageously go hand in hand.

Yeah. You can’t have one without the other. So continue to embrace what it means to live your best life and you will discover all the courage that you need.

All: Love that.

Wendy: I would say. Scared is what you’re feeling. But brave is what you’re doing. Ooh. And try not to lose sight of like that.

Are you tingly? I’m

Eric: ting.

Wendy: No, I’m ting. I think I’m

Eric: tingly. God,

All (3): we’re all

Eric: tingly. Now. If that mic wasn’t fixed to the, I would drop it right now and just. That was powerful.

Kate: I would just embrace the uncertainty. It’s gonna, it’s gonna be there. It’s always gonna be there. Yeah. Go with the flow.

Eric: Yeah.

Kate: Just embrace it and see what happens.

Eric: A hundred percent. Yeah. I would go back to the quote I used earlier, that courage doesn’t always roar. Sometimes courage is the little voice at the end of the day that just says, I’ll try again tomorrow. Folks, thank you so [00:53:00] much for listening in. We hope this conversation’s been meaningful to you. We encourage you to visit our website, living richly.me.

That’s Living richly.me. You’re gonna find out all kinds of great information where we have all the previous episodes, show notes. We have information about the 15 day Life Vision Challenge, along with our private Facebook group, where you can join the nation and surround yourself with other people on a similar journey.

We are so grateful that you continue to support the show and the growth is just really humbling for us. We look forward to the next time you join us. Until then, make the rest of your life the best of your life.