Transforming Lives – Beyond Resolutions to Real Change

Transforming Lives – Beyond Resolutions to Real Change

Wendy Dodds:

You don’t need to feel pain in order to make a change. Right.

Wendy Dodds:

You need

Wendy Dodds:

to feel uncomfortable, but that doesn’t mean it has to be all or nothing.

Rob Dale:

When you change the language Yep. You change the behavior. You change the belief, you change the behavior.

Eric Deschamps:

Most of transformation happens in the day to day microevolutions Little bit by little bit, one day at a time, I think that’s where the magic is.

Kate Beere:

If you’re so unhappy where you are, if you move a little bit closer to where you wanna be, How much worse can it be?

Wendy Dodds:

Welcome to the Living Rich Sleep podcast. We are so happy to have you join us today. And speaking of today, change We’re gonna be talking about making meaningful changes in our lives. Aside from the fact that we’ve switched up the setup. Right?

Wendy Dodds:

This is

Rob Dale:

pretty meaningful. This is weird.

Eric Deschamps:

For for so long, we were I’m used to that side of the table. This side of the studio just feels so weird.

Wendy Dodds:

It feels really weird. Yes. It was a very meaningful change, and I think change. Gotten used to it, but we’re not sure.

Wendy Dodds:

We’re not quite sure. We’re not quite sure

Eric Deschamps:

about it.

Wendy Dodds:

In all seriousness, talking about making meaningful changes in our lives, And I think we should just start with this. So, Eric, I’m I’m gonna just throw this out to you right away. Yeah. Let’s talk a little bit about what The most common misconceptions are when we think about transforming our lives, when people think about that, and some of those obstacles and hurdles that we try to overcome.

Eric Deschamps:

Oh, I love that. Especially as we’re kinda like in resolution land. Right? Yes. That time of year where people are thinking, making those change. For me, I think there’s 2 of them that that really stand out in in terms of, myths that we need to debunk. And 1 is the if it’s gonna be, it’s up to me myth, change. And the other is the one size fits all myth. Right? That first one, if it’s gonna be it’s up to me, I understand that any change that we make in our lives has to be we have to make the decision.

Eric Deschamps:

We have to make the choice. But I think we undervalue the the the importance of community change. And, us, people supporting us in making those changes, and I think that’s why often change feels so out of touch or so out of reach It’s because we’re trying to sustain it, in our own steam under our own steam. The other one is this notion of it worked for me. Surely, it’s gonna work for you. Right? The one size fits all. And, actually we we are in the coaching industry. I mean, Rob, you and I, this is what we do for a living.

Eric Deschamps:

And, in if you read self help books, if you read anything about self improvement, often it’s being served up as a formula. Right? Do a, b, c, 123, and you’ll get the results that I got. And I think

Rob Dale:

You should’ve sung there.

Wendy Dodds:

Oh. I didn’t commit it, change. 1, 2, 3.

Wendy Dodds:

Right? Steve, are you there? Are

Wendy Dodds:

you gonna join us? Hey.

Eric Deschamps:

Change. But I think there’s so much that’s presented as formula Yeah. To be, imitated or duplicated as opposed to Principles perhaps to be then, adapted and and and and and made our own. But, yeah, I think that one size fits all, and if it’s up to me, or if it’s gonna be, it’s up to me. Those those things are just

Rob Dale:

And and and just to jump in a bit on that second one as well because, we see this certainly in our old, world the old life of our church world when we were pastors

Eric Deschamps:

keep bringing that up.

Rob Dale:

I do. I wish you’d changed that. No. I embrace that. I embrace My past because of what I’ve learned through. But one

Eric Deschamps:

of the things that would

Rob Dale:

would happen, often in that world was, for example, there was a, you know, particular trip. I’m not gonna actually I was about to name it, I thought, no. I better not because I know that it hasn’t ended well there. But there was a term No. Everyone wants to know. Yeah. Well, they can Google. Third bottle, that, that came on the scene that that really was absolutely huge and had this pull emphasis around purpose, purpose driven, right, it was this method and this model.

Rob Dale:

And everybody, every church was trying to mimic change every element of it. If we’re gonna grow into a megachurch, a super church, we have to follow this structure, this plan. We gotta do all make. And people were changing the craziest things in these small town community country church. We’re changing them to this big city model, and, of course, it didn’t work. It fell flat

Wendy Dodds:

because

Rob Dale:

they were trying to mimic somebody else’s plan.

Eric Deschamps:

Well, it’s the, I’ve often used the phrase, don’t duplicate, innovate. This isn’t about I

Wendy Dodds:

love that.

Eric Deschamps:

Looking at somebody else’s journey. I think we can all learn from each other and learn. There’s I I glean from any book that I read, any video that I watch, I’m gonna glean something that’s of value. But it’s not about copy paste into my life, and it’s gonna look the same.

Wendy Dodds:

Right.

Eric Deschamps:

I think we have to we have to take those concepts. We have to take those lessons and then adapt them for ourselves.

Kate Beere:

Yeah. I agree. I think an another good myth is that change. Meaningful change has to be massive. Right?

Wendy Dodds:

Oh, yes.

Kate Beere:

In scope. There’s so much change that we can do that has deep meaning that can Be a small change, something we you know, I’m meditating more. That’s a small, very meaningful change for me.

Eric Deschamps:

Right.

Kate Beere:

Me getting divorced, Massive change.

Eric Deschamps:

Right? You don’t wanna be doing that every day.

Kate Beere:

No. But I think sometimes we when we think about change, we think of it as this big think, and it it doesn’t always have

Wendy Dodds:

to be.

Wendy Dodds:

And sometimes I think we tie it into our self worth where we don’t recognize that the small changes Changes are sometimes the most powerful ones that compounded over over time Right. Can end up then transitioning into massive changes.

Eric Deschamps:

I heard it said before that we often overestimate what we can accomplish in one day and underestimate what we can accomplish in a year. Yeah. I was just talking with a a leader yesterday who, has been really working hard, working through some really tough stuff, and unable able to see the progress, unable to celebrate

Wendy Dodds:

the

Eric Deschamps:

wins, and it took a conversation where I said, like, think of how far you’ve come in the last several months and These small changes that you’ve made and how far it’s led you, I think when we approach it I agree with you a 100%. When we approach, meaningful change as sweeping changes in our lives,

Wendy Dodds:

change.

Eric Deschamps:

There are gonna be seasons where that’s true, and we need to make big sweeping changes. But I think most of transformation happens in the day to day microevolutions Little bit by little bit, one day at a time, I think that’s where the magic is.

Rob Dale:

For for me, one of the big myths around change is that failure is not an option. Right? Failure is not only an option. It it it’s it’s it’s almost a guarantee.

Eric Deschamps:

And and one of the best teachers.

Rob Dale:

And one of the best teachers. And, you know, and so we are either we are afraid to make a change because what if I fail

Eric Deschamps:

Right.

Rob Dale:

Or when we do fail after making change, we give up.

Wendy Dodds:

Yep. Yep.

Rob Dale:

And in both those cases, of course, we’re missing the gem of what really is about change, about doing these meaningful changes.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. Love

Wendy Dodds:

that. The, tied into yours do. And coming from the gym world, would be no pain, no gain. I think that is the biggest bullshit line, and I will never use that when I’m coaching people because I feel like, you know, you don’t need to feel pain in order to make a change. You need to feel uncomfortable, but that doesn’t mean it has to be all or nothing.

Wendy Dodds:

Change.

Eric Deschamps:

I love I love that because this again, no pain, no gain. Talk about a statement that is ingrained in the North American mindset. Let’s face it. Often, pain is a powerful motivator. Some of the most meaningful changes in my life, it took pain Yeah. To get me started. Right. What what’s the saying? Unless until the pain of staying the same Yes.

Eric Deschamps:

Is greater than the pain try to change, we often aren’t motivated enough.

Wendy Dodds:

Right.

Eric Deschamps:

But if if Yeah. The whole journey has to be painful, I I don’t think that’s true. I think pain can motivate, but then we need to switch to a different fuel, try to keep us going away. 100%.

Wendy Dodds:

Yeah. Which kinda ties into if we think about meaningful change because that could mean different things for a lot of people, change. How is that different? And I think we’ve all probably had this question before. How is that different than making, say, a New Year’s resolution? How

Eric Deschamps:

do how many here actually make anybody here do resolutions?

Rob Dale:

I don’t. No. Not anymore.

Kate Beere:

I have anymore. I have.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. I oh, yeah.

Wendy Dodds:

I mean,

Eric Deschamps:

I’ve done them in the past.

Wendy Dodds:

I’ve done them many times in the past.

Eric Deschamps:

So the question is how how is that different for me making meaningful change?

Wendy Dodds:

Yeah. So Yeah. How is you know, because right away, people might think meaningful change, especially this time of year, change. How is that different than making, say, a New Year’s resolution?

Eric Deschamps:

That’s a great question. I, I’ll just jump in because this came right into my mind as you said it, I think most resolutions are made out of regret.

Kate Beere:

Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:

I think people reach the end of the year. They’re looking at their lives. They’re not where they wanna be. Perhaps, they had set made a decision or set an intention to do certain things this year, and they didn’t get to them. They they didn’t make those changes. They didn’t take get into action around, or perhaps they started and got off track. And so I think the vast majority of resolutions or at least a big majority of resolutions are made from a place of guilt, may, shame, regret, and those are not. Those are they do have those those emotions carry energy, but it’s not very good energy.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. It’s not made from a place of, this is who I am. This is what really matters to me. Here’s what I wanna get out of this 100. I think resolutions are very flippant at the surface level. They’re they’re they’re they’re a wish and a hope, as opposed to a commitment.

Kate Beere:

Yeah. And meaningful change is try to what you said, it’s your vision. What do you really want out of life? And that can happen anytime.

Eric Deschamps:

Right.

Kate Beere:

Right? It is not happening to your point at the end of the year, it’s like, oh, I I, you know, I didn’t lose the £20 I wanted to. So, okay, come Jan 1st, I’m gonna go, and we all do that. Or, you know, I’m not I’m not I’m gonna drink less, or I’m gonna go to bed earlier. I’m gonna do this. But when you do it out of that place of, like, achieve failure, like, I didn’t do it, so now I’m gonna go.

Eric Deschamps:

Right. Yep.

Kate Beere:

It’s not really tied to like, if you have deep vision around wanting to do something, change Then you’ll you’ll likely make meaningful change that is lasts over time. Yeah. It doesn’t flee after 3 weeks where you’re like, I can’t do this.

Wendy Dodds:

Right? The lasting piece is huge. Yeah. Because for a lot of people in our society, we expect things to happen right away. And if the change that we’re trying to impact I mean, I’ve been trying to change this whole seating plan.

Wendy Dodds:

It took this long to change

Rob Dale:

just the seating arrangement for Christ’s sake.

Wendy Dodds:

Change. Of times we think and we don’t think about meaningful change as lasting change, so what you just said, Kate. And a lot of people I find think of change. I’m gonna make this change, but if it doesn’t show up in 24 hours like my Amazon order will Yeah. Then then the change isn’t working, Or they’re not in tune with their internal GPS knowing that part of that meaningful change, there’s gonna be some road closures. There’s gonna be, you know, a shift in the weather, navigational direction. Do. And so a lot of people just give up Yeah.

Wendy Dodds:

And stop Yeah. Yeah. Trying to implement that change because it’s not working to how they perceived it was supposed to be in their head.

Eric Deschamps:

Well, I think a lot of change when we talk about may people are it it it comes down to the difference between what is transformation.

Wendy Dodds:

Right.

Eric Deschamps:

When something transforms, form, it doesn’t go back to its original form. Think think of, you know, what what’s previous to a butterfly that’s Caterpillar? It’s a caterpillar. Wow.

Wendy Dodds:

It’s a raccoon,

Eric Deschamps:

actually. Raccoon. So when a raccoon spins out, cocoon when the raccoon enters the cocoon

Wendy Dodds:

I think the raccoon,

Eric Deschamps:

cocoon go all together. Yeah. When when the caterpillar spins the web and makes the cocoon, once it transforms, goes on undergoes that transformation. There is no going back. Right. There is no going back. I think a lot of changes that people make and resolutions are temporary behavior modifications. I’m gonna drink glass.

Eric Deschamps:

I’m gonna go to the gym more. I’m gonna lose some weight. Right. I’m gonna invest more in my kids. Whatever. Like, I’m gonna learn a new skill. Yeah. But it’s it’s we haven’t gone deep enough.

Eric Deschamps:

What we’re looking at is the behavior

Wendy Dodds:

Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:

That we want to either stop doing or start doing more up, change. Don’t get down to the why level of why this matters.

Rob Dale:

They’re external. They’re ex and so, you know, as we look at the law of things

Eric Deschamps:

You could’ve just I could’ve just said doubt, I said the same thing, but I like to I like to say things with more words.

Wendy Dodds:

With raccoons.

Wendy Dodds:

With raccoon words.

Rob Dale:

When the raccoon transforms into the mayor. No. There it’s it it is it is ex they’re external. So One, we know this is that most New Year’s resolutions don’t you don’t achieve them or they don’t

Eric Deschamps:

Blue Monday.

Rob Dale:

Blue Monday. Right? Within 3 weeks, you Most

Wendy Dodds:

people have

Rob Dale:

abandoned them. I’ve abandoned them. They failed on them. And even if they do achieve them, there’s an emptiness.

Kate Beere:

Yeah.

Rob Dale:

Because it didn’t change the real Yeah. Question. It didn’t affect or which is internal.

Wendy Dodds:

Right.

Rob Dale:

And so you have an external activity. Oh, I’ve accomplished this. If we don’t transform from the inside Yeah. None of that matters. And so it really is like, How much of what we talk about in every one of these episodes, it comes back to starting point is looking internally.

Eric Deschamps:

Right. Well, think of, what’s one of the most common ones is getting it fit or losing some weight. Right? How many folks are making that decision not because it’s tied to something very meaningful to them, but rather are setting that because of society’s expectations And definitions of what it means to look healthy. Yep. Right? So, again, it’s an external, it’s it’s from the outside in as opposed to the inside out, and I don’t think I don’t think you can achieve transformation from the outside in. I truly believe it’s an inside job, and I think Meaningful change, but for me is synonymous with transformation Yeah. Is that something internally has shifted for me In my thoughts, in my beliefs, in my mental models, in my understanding of how the world works, and because my belief has shifted, I am now wearing a new set of lenses Mhmm. And so I approach life differently.

Eric Deschamps:

That that change is gonna last.

Kate Beere:

Well and your commitment level to that is very different. Your commitment level to a a New Year’s resolution is not high Right. Because you’re it’s not coming from that place of actually wanting change.

Wendy Dodds:

Yeah.

Kate Beere:

It’s feeling like I need to change. Here’s something I

Eric Deschamps:

have to I’m supposed to

Kate Beere:

change. Supposed to change. Yep. So you’re not attached to it. So you’re not committed. You you can commit for 3 weeks. Right? And then it it dwindles. When you’re truly committed to change, it’s a different story.

Kate Beere:

It’s a different outcome.

Eric Deschamps:

Yep. Yep.

Wendy Dodds:

Which then can kinda tie into One of the biggest things people struggle with is consistency. Yeah. So people

Eric Deschamps:

know I consistently struggle with

Wendy Dodds:

that. People know that they want To I’d like to change this or I want to change this. So why do we as humans always gravitate to that thought in our head, but it’s so hard. Right? Don’t know where to begin. Yeah. So why why is change so hard, and How do we overcome that resistance?

Wendy Dodds:

Mhmm.

Eric Deschamps:

I I

Wendy Dodds:

have a

Kate Beere:

I have a it’s not a theory. It’s just I think we’ve been so programmed as a society That change is hard. That’s all we hear is that change is hard. It’s so hard. It’s difficult. Right? And so it’s so and and we were talking upstairs, and Eric’s like, well, change is hard. And I’m like, change can be hard. Yeah.

Kate Beere:

It’s not always hard. It can be uncomfortable. Yeah. It can be scary. It can be exciting, it can be like, switch that to the positive. I think we have a very sort of negative connotation That’s just formed out of what we’ve been told that it’s hard. Yeah. And I’m not saying it’s not hard because change can be hard, but it’s not only hard.

Eric Deschamps:

Right. Well, I think you when you talk about just how you approach it, right, like, I think, like, just as you said that, like, the what I the thought I got in my my mind was that Oftentimes, when we’re thinking about making a change, we’re focused on what we’re gonna miss out on, what we’re gonna lose. Yes. Right? So I wanna lose weight. I’m gonna miss out on eating the

Wendy Dodds:

way that

Eric Deschamps:

I want.

Wendy Dodds:

Even when something we really, really want. Yeah. That doesn’t seem to be as front and foremost as, but I’m missing out on this.

Eric Deschamps:

Gonna miss out. Because what we’re we’re Yeah. We’re literally walking away from what we know Yeah. It’s the it’s the the age old, battle between the devil I know, the devil I don’t. Right? We we we we fear the unknown. We, we avoid the unknown, and so we will often gravitate and and hold on to things that are unhealthy for us Yep. Because we’re afraid of what it would look like to not have that in

Rob Dale:

your life. It’s interesting. So the the most successful program, and this is documented. There’s proof around this. The most successful program for people who wanna quit smoking is not a program, but a book. And it’s a book called, How to Quit Smoking by Alan Carr. How to stop smoking. Sorry.

Rob Dale:

Not How to Quit Smoking. How to Stop Smoking by Alan Carr. And he’s basically easy.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. I know people that have done it, like, 1,000,000 of times.

Rob Dale:

Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And and his whole premise of the book, and he actually says this at the very first chapter of the book, 1st paragraph of the book. I want you to keep smoking while you read the book. And, and he then goes into and it’s all it’s it’s neurolinguistic program, NLP, in his mindset where he basically says, I’m I’m going to what I want to do is I want you to get yourself I want you to change the thinking around who you are. You’re not someone trying to quit smoking because that’s we don’t like to give up.

Rob Dale:

Yeah. He says you’re a nonsmoker. Right. You’re changing your belief. Yes. Right? Because and then he uses and he uses one of the examples in the book is this so after a really good meal, what does a smoker do? Smoke. Has a cigarette. Yep.

Rob Dale:

Right? What does a nonsmoker do?

Eric Deschamps:

Have dessert

Kate Beere:

Or nothing?

Eric Deschamps:

Or nothing. A

Rob Dale:

1000000 things they could talk. Right? Tell. Right. What doesn’t come into their mind is, oh

Eric Deschamps:

I need a cigarette.

Rob Dale:

I like, so I smoked many, many years ago. Yeah. But I don’t finish a meal Now and think, oh, boy, would I ever like to have a smoke?

Eric Deschamps:

Right.

Kate Beere:

Yeah.

Rob Dale:

I’m a nonsmoker. I don’t think about that. And he says when you change the mindset and so but that whole premise of he he he says, Way too often, the reason why people fail to, stop smoking is because they you even they use language. I need to quit smoking. I need to give up something. Yeah. Instead, when you change the language Yep. You change the behavior.

Rob Dale:

You change the belief, you change the behavior.

Eric Deschamps:

Right. But but all of that, try. I love that. And but so much of that requires you to get clear on what you actually want. Again, as opposed to, responding to some external pressure or expectation or societal standard again, we we’ve been talking about they. You know? Who are the they that set these standards that we all feel completely enslaved to, and and now add the world of social media too. We’ve talked about it often on the show. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:

It is it is a world that is focused on externals. Try, there’s not a lot of value placed on the internals of this world. It’s how you look. It’s how thin you are. It’s how fat you are. Sorry. Not fat.

Wendy Dodds:

How how fit you are.

Eric Deschamps:

Fat fit. You know, for some people.

Rob Dale:

Alright. You looked right at me.

Wendy Dodds:

I doubt it. How try.

Eric Deschamps:

Are you are you getting Stu Stuntman Stu flashbacks right now? Is that

Rob Dale:

what you

Eric Deschamps:

say? Stuntman

Wendy Dodds:

Stu. Change. That was good.

Wendy Dodds:

That was a glare.

Eric Deschamps:

Right. But it’s true. Like, we we we’re so programmed now to to be like, it’s always been there. Those societal expectations have been there. These are not new to the world of social media, but it seems like social media has just amplified the I think of our kids and the pressure that Well, They’re being raised.

Kate Beere:

Add an AI on top of that, and they’re like, nothing’s real. Like, nothing is real online anymore. There is no actual The they

Wendy Dodds:

is the free apps. Ugh.

Kate Beere:

Right. Yeah.

Wendy Dodds:

We change. Yeah. Often Right. Which are great for certain things. Yep. But then when it starts to seep enter your mind and control your daily actions and decisions that you’re making and how you’re navigating your life, then that’s when it can become a thing.

Rob Dale:

They are tools. Choose, they are not they are neither good or bad. That’s right. Yeah. They are what we use them for. One of the things that I think of when when I talk, this whole notion of of making changes is I I go back to some of our original, business coach training, Glicker’s formula for change.

Eric Deschamps:

Right.

Rob Dale:

Yeah. Right? And when she talks about this notion of the in order to overcome the resistance to change

Wendy Dodds:

and

Rob Dale:

I love what you said about change isn’t always bad. Mhmm. So true. When these when the equation is in place, it could be incredibly positive. I get to see this change.

Kate Beere:

Yeah.

Rob Dale:

But he says there’s gotta be 3 components in order to overcome the resistance to change. There’s gotta be Some, understanding of what your desired future is.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah.

Rob Dale:

Right? There’s gotta be a dissatisfaction with your current reality. Yep. And then there needs to be clear concrete concrete steps in order to achieve it.

Wendy Dodds:

Yeah.

Rob Dale:

And if those 3 pieces are there, you will overcome that resistance to change. Right.

Eric Deschamps:

There’s a there’s an energy now behind what you’re trying to do because you’ve not just said I’m listen. I think a lot of folks’ resolutions, as I said earlier, I think they come from dissatisfaction. I’m not happy with where I am. I’m not happy with the lack of progress I made this year. I’m not happy that I’m I didn’t I didn’t achieve this goal. Yep. And I’m feeling all this pressure, so I’m gonna I’m I am dissatisfaction is a powerful force.

Wendy Dodds:

Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. As a matter of fact, if there’s if there’s not enough dissatisfaction, accord according to Leiker, you’re not gonna move from where you are. There’s no motivation. Right?

Rob Dale:

Right.

Eric Deschamps:

But they they they where it gets really powerful with that equation is you’re also painting a vision of what’s possible,

Kate Beere:

of

Eric Deschamps:

where you want to be, and you’re identifying the steps you

Wendy Dodds:

need to take,

Eric Deschamps:

and you’re getting into action on it as opposed to just saying, well, I’m unhappy weighing an extra £20, and I I gotta make a resolution to lose that in the New Year. Well, good luck with that unless you dig deeper. Yeah.

Kate Beere:

Yes. Yep.

Wendy Dodds:

Agreed. If we kinda think about significant changes in our life

Rob Dale:

Mhmm.

Wendy Dodds:

Now this question, of course, wouldn’t apply to me because

Wendy Dodds:

when you would

Wendy Dodds:

just change it. Significant changes. What do you mean? But either from what do you mean? Either from within ourselves or, People around us, how did you, face those significant changes, but how did you navigate around that? So many.

Eric Deschamps:

That’s a big question.

Wendy Dodds:

Yeah. And maybe not big long stories, but even just small things that maybe have happened. So I’ll just, like, answer my own question.

Rob Dale:

So try How would you So

Eric Deschamps:

how would you navigate that, Wendy, and make it significant changes?

Wendy Dodds:

So for me, I would say one of the big ones would be my wellness journey. Mhmm. And learning how to to navigate through that. And and the big fear around that for me was Not knowing where to start. Knowing I no. I I was gonna say needed to do something, but I don’t wanna use that language. I was in the place where I wanted to do something, but the fear of not sure where to start, don’t know who to go to Wow. Feeling like I was at rock bottom, change.

Wendy Dodds:

And, you know, using, like, weight loss as an example

Wendy Dodds:

Yeah.

Wendy Dodds:

In an industry where there’s just so much noise over, you know, do this diet or try this Or eat like this or don’t do this and try this gym and this workout. I was just so overwhelmed that, you know, that fear, was very much holding me back from change. So fear and laziness was holding me back from actually wanting to do that. Yeah. So in order for me to navigate that, it was really about kinda going back to My values is to what was important to me and then being able to identify what was gonna make me feel good, what was gonna fit into my schedule, And what was I going to be able to be consistent with by not fixing 20 different things at once, but the top 2 things

Eric Deschamps:

Right. You started you started somewhere, and I think that’s I think we overthink. Oftentimes, we overthink what’s the best way to do this, what’s the most They did a study in the book, the the art of, Art of Everyday Surdoneness? No. No. No. I’m gonna forget the

Wendy Dodds:

of living?

Eric Deschamps:

Brad Stuhlberg. The art of war?

Wendy Dodds:

No. I’ll put

Eric Deschamps:

it in the show notes. It’s just escaping me right now.

Wendy Dodds:

All just don’t want

Rob Dale:

to go whenever you Right.

Eric Deschamps:

The, practice of groundedness. Thank you is the name of it. The practice of groundedness. Not even in it.

Rob Dale:

Art’s not even in it.

Eric Deschamps:

Those 3 letters are in the word practice. Thank you very much. But, I was close. Anyway, he talks about how they did a study on they were talking about the best diets, right, or the most famous diets, whether it be I don’t know. There’s so many of them now. Was it paleo? Was it this? Or keto? Whatever. And they also did a study on the best training regimen, what’s the best training regimen by far? Do you know that they were not able to prove that anyone was better than another? Do you know the ones that were the best? The ones people stuck with.

Wendy Dodds:

Yes.

Rob Dale:

Yep.

Eric Deschamps:

So and and I recently heard on a podcast, and this guy’s big on meditation, but and and he was talking in the context of meditation, But he says that, most of us that most success is about, is about centering and focusing on 3 or 4 key fundamentals and staying with them. I think we get caught up in the new fads. We get caught up in the the next and best thing.

Wendy Dodds:

Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:

And it’s a distraction. It’s a smokescreen. I think it was one of the generals involved in Desert Storm. Again, I gotta my memory’s not helping me today, but he said change that, a me thank you. He said a I’m not gonna quote him perfectly here, but he said a mediocre strategy well executed would be the fancy strategy you do nothing on change every day of the

Rob Dale:

So Michael Easter, who wrote the book comfort crisis yeah. Comfort crisis, which is, again, this whole notion of even the fact that we are uncomfortable with being uncomfortable. Change. His follow-up book was a book is a book, that just came out, a month ago or so called the scarcity brain. And he’d and, again, he I won’t get into the whole details of it, but one of the chapters is around information and how we have now we have so much information, of course, and we know this. Right? We have more information than we could eve ever digest in a lifetime in 10 lifetimes. Yeah. But he says the problem here, and this is where the scarcity brain is, because there are the scarcity of your brain, basically, is this idea that we actually thrive best when we have less.

Wendy Dodds:

Mhmm.

Rob Dale:

Right? And so but in the case of information, because we have so much information, like he said, she said, we we’re at a place now where, you could go online. Like, you you you are oh, I I need to fold my laundry. I know. You can go online and get 15 ways to fold your laundry. Yeah. Yeah. Like stuff that we you know, how to chew your food for best digestion. Right? Like like, there’s and he uses a bunch of examples

Eric Deschamps:

of that. Thing really?

Rob Dale:

Well, there Yeah.

Kate Beere:

Change it thing.

Rob Dale:

And it is a thing.

Kate Beere:

And It is a thing.

Eric Deschamps:

So clearly.

Rob Dale:

But it’s this notion now that we are unable to just

Wendy Dodds:

do the most we

Rob Dale:

have complicated the most placated the

Eric Deschamps:

simplest of tasks Yep.

Rob Dale:

To the point that we now have a generation of people who don’t know how to act and do or think about anything

Wendy Dodds:

Mhmm.

Rob Dale:

Without first I gotta find out what what is the best way to do this. Right? Right. Because everything has been and so you go back to the notion of with diet, with what’s the best diet. And, again, which the one you stick to. The fundamentals are the fundamentals. That’s the part that hasn’t changed no matter what diet or workout regime or anything like that.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah.

Rob Dale:

At the end of the day, More calories out than calories in is the approach.

Eric Deschamps:

I think this we’re we’re we’re stuck in a microwave’s, society, right, where we think that, again, it’s this instant, instant change or the overnight delivery. You used the Amazon example earlier. And and when things aren’t then shifting for us fast enough, we think the solution is to change our approach. We we are not We’re we’re too impatient with the the slowly by slowly, little by little, daily by daily, those micro revolutions. We’re looking for those, those. And I think switching to another methodology is like a placebo. It makes us feel that, oh, now I’m gonna do this about this. And and it gives us the illusion that we’re in control, troll, but all we’re doing is delaying, in many case.

Eric Deschamps:

Now, of course, if we’re trying something and it’s ultimately really not working and we’ve given it a good go, then, of course, it makes sense to change your strategy. Right? Like Yes. You you don’t keep you don’t keep vlogging a dead horse. But No. I think we often, Out of, an a a level of impatience Yeah. And this this false notion of change should happen overnight, or quickly, we we keep taking all these detours, and we never arrive at our destination.

Wendy Dodds:

So then how do we overcome that? Yeah. So if fear is the big thing, how do we then learn how to overcome that.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah.

Wendy Dodds:

So, like, maybe one tip from everyone.

Kate Beere:

I think I think it’s you gotta I always I always talk about this, but it’s micro just it’s moving slowly. It’s you know, if it if it is scary if it is scary to you, I think you also have to ask yourself, like, What is so scary? Right? Because if you’re so unhappy where you are, we’re talking about meaningful change. If you’re so unhappy where you are, If you move a little bit closer to where you wanna be, how much worse can it be? Like, you know? So take that 1 step and try and move. So I think it’s I I just believe in the power of those little micro. You know? If you can just move a little bit closer change. And then a little bit closer and then a little bit closer, it might not feel so overwhelming. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:

So scary.

Wendy Dodds:

I

Eric Deschamps:

love that because we’re often again, we’re we’re focused on what it’s gonna cost me to make this change. Yeah. And we often are present to well, what’s the cost of not making it? Yeah. Yeah. But we think that the cost is only Associated with making the shift, when in reality, we’re paying a price right now.

Kate Beere:

Where you are.

Eric Deschamps:

Right? So if you’re if you’re in a if you’re in a dead end job going nowhere and you’re afraid of taking the leap, because it might mean, I don’t know, a drop in salary for a while. It might mean take I mean, you’ve yeah. You you don’t like, but you’re pay what you’re paying a price right now, what we our focus is so much on what I’m gonna miss out on if I take this leap.

Kate Beere:

Totally.

Eric Deschamps:

We forget about the terrible cost we’re paying daily Yeah. To stay in our current situations. We gotta get present.

Kate Beere:

Yeah.

Rob Dale:

I love that. I I think another one in this again, I I have to think this through a bit more. I’m gonna say it, and I still have to think it through so you can jump in if you think Crazy on it, but

Eric Deschamps:

Oh, you bet

Wendy Dodds:

we will.

Rob Dale:

Is is asking the question, why does it matter? Right. So why why do you need to do this? Why is this important to you? Mhmm. And and change. And I what the thought that came to my mind was, again, I amazed how many times, you know, not just in this episode, but in the last few that I’ve been referring back to some of those Early coaching documents we use, but the 3 whys.

Eric Deschamps:

Why. Yeah.

Rob Dale:

White. And and we would use this when we’re trying to help, business owners try to figure out kind of, their marketing messages, why does that matter? Why is that important? But even to do that with ourselves, well, I wanna lose £20. Why? Why is why is that important to you?

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. Right.

Rob Dale:

Well, because I’ll feel better. Well, why is that important to you? And to ask those the the the whole purpose of the why the three why question is to ask yourself the why question until it finally hits an emotional reaction.

Eric Deschamps:

Right. Right. You’re you’re getting at now something that really matters.

Rob Dale:

Right? And so I think one of the first steps is to is to do that exercise with whatever change you’re trying to make is is get to the core of why it matters, and it might take 3. It might take 20 whys Yeah. Before you get to that place.

Kate Beere:

Love that.

Eric Deschamps:

I think that’s so good. Keegan and Leahy, and we’ll put this they’re they’re in their the work, They’ve been featured at Harvard. The the this book has been around for a long time. It’s foundational in the work of transformation called Immunity to Change, and they talk about this model That oftentimes, we set these goals. Like, I wanna go to the gym. I wanna lose 20 pounds. We keep coming back to that only because the most common New Year’s resolutions that people make this time of year.

Wendy Dodds:

Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:

And they said, but yeah. And yet we are not going to the gym, and we’re we keep eating a bunch of junk food and whatever else, and we We we we we’re not sure why what’s going on. They say that our our, our brain creates an immunity to anything that’s foreign to it. So if we’re used to change A certain behavior, if we value certain things, anything that comes into competition with our existing values Yeah. There will be an immune response Right. To try to flush it out. For example, why am I perhaps still eating junk food and and eating the the wrong kind of foods? Well, perhaps, there’s a competing value underneath the surface of friendship and spending time with family, and there’s a fear that if I start eating differently, that might get violated. Right? Or that might get impeded upon.

Eric Deschamps:

Right? Right. So the the social connection value is actually competing with the which is existing in you Yeah. Is actually resisting, creating this immune response to your stated desire for change. And so getting present, I love. Like, getting present, you gotta go a bit deeper than just, well, this is what I I wanna do. Why is this important? What do I hope the outcome will be? What would it look like if I achieve this? What would it look like if I didn’t? Like, beginning to have those deeper conversations. But, again, this requires, some of the what we talked about in, in other episodes, slowing the fuck down Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:

And thinking it through before just making, you know, false empty promises to yourself that you’re probably not gonna follow-up on. Mhmm.

Wendy Dodds:

A lot

Wendy Dodds:

of people will ask me, like, why? I know I wanna change on whatever it is they wanna change. Yep. But I just can’t get motivated. Well, motivation isn’t something that you’re born with. It’s something that is cultivated over time. And some of the books said we’ve referenced in another great one is the slight edge by Jeff Olson. And I remember when one of my mentors, she gifted this to me maybe 8 years ago. And it was such an eye opening book because it really talks about the compounded effect of those small changes.

Wendy Dodds:

So when people say, change. Well, I’m just not motivated. Well, you don’t just wake up and decide to be motivated. Right. Your your motivation really kind of Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:

Check. Is there a motivation pill we can take? I mean,

Wendy Dodds:

there’s a pill for everything. But it’s cultivated through that consistency. It’s almost like a farmer who plants his seeds. Well, he’s not expecting next week for all the corn to be, you know, harvested that comes over time. He’s tilling it, he’s cultivating it, all of that kind of stuff so that then the seeds so it’s the same thing with with motivation. So when people always say, well, I don’t know how to change. Start by, like you said, Kate, like, those small steps, and and over time, your motivation is gonna start to grow and develop and deepen.

Wendy Dodds:

I love that.

Kate Beere:

Yeah. Each step, we’ll fuel the next step. Right. Like, it’s almost like you’re giving yourself you’re fueling yourself as you start to grow. Yes.

Eric Deschamps:

You’re training yourself.

Kate Beere:

You’re training yourself.

Eric Deschamps:

22 words that I came out acronyms that, I developed in the last several months just in just trying to understand how change happens in our lives and how true transformation takes place are the words lag and the word act, and I’ll give this to you really, really quickly. Lag is a term we talk about Internet lag. Internet lag is the the time it takes or the delay between when the signal is sent and when it’s received. Right? So if there’s a lot of latency, which lag is, the the the slang word for, the short form 4, in the network, it means there’s a lot of delays between know that, actually. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a lag. You you talk to any gamer who does online gaming, you talk about lag.

Eric Deschamps:

Lag is the bane of every gamer because lag can mean the difference between winning or losing. Right? But LAG stands for learning. It stands for adoption and growth. And so for me, the way there’s always lag between when we learn something new or we make a decision, we there’s a learning can be learning a new concept. We learn a new concept that’s interesting. But how many things that we learn, read, come across, hear, actually make it into our practice? So very few.

Kate Beere:

Right.

Eric Deschamps:

Right? Like, just learning is not enough. Beyond learning something new or becoming aware of something, then there’s this notion of I have to adopt it as my own. Right? That’s what the a stands for, adoption. And I’m gonna adopt that as my own, as something I want to implement, something I want to take in. The g is the tough part. Growth in practice. You don’t even grow right away even after you adopt it. You may learn it.

Eric Deschamps:

You may adopt it. But now I’ve gotta grow. And how do I grow? By practicing it. Mhmm. Another similar word is the word act. Right? ACT stands for awareness. It starts by becoming aware I want to make a change or aware of something that I want to shift in my life. But then I have commit to it, awareness I love what Jim said when he was on the show.

Eric Deschamps:

Awareness does not transform. It merely informs. Change. I have to make the commitment, then start taking the steps, and then I enter the t stage training. Yep. I start training in that new thing, and it’s gonna be over time as I I grow in practice or I train and I train, that that is gonna begin now to make its way into my new way of seeing the world and experiencing the world. But, again, we we are so impatient. We we want to go from learning and awareness to, look.

Eric Deschamps:

I’ve done it. Right? And it’s just not the way.

Wendy Dodds:

But I think those 2, words that you’ve used like an act is such a it’s just practical advice that people can start to use.

Eric Deschamps:

I’ve already copyrighted it.

Wendy Dodds:

Right. All that noise

Wendy Dodds:

as actionable steps because the next question people have are, so how do I do this? I’m stuck, you know, in whatever change I’m trying to make. So How do I, kinda figure out what steps to take? So if if if we were to talk about that.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. So the first thing I say about stuck is we’re never stuck as we think we are. Stuck in many cases is an illusion. Right? It’s and I’m not saying listen. I’ve been in seasons in my life where I felt terribly stuck, but what I realized is where where I was stuck is in my head. Right. What was going on between these 2 ears of mine was the real problem. It wasn’t actually the external forces of the external resistance or anything else.

Eric Deschamps:

It was resistance between the brain. So I I think, part of getting unstuck, whether it’s you’re trying to make a change and it’s not working or you’re stuck in a relationship or you’re stuck in a dead end career, whatever the case may be, you’re you’re just not as ever stuck as you think you are. There’s always a way forward.

Kate Beere:

Well and you’re always gonna get stuck. Try. Part of change is getting stuck. Like, it’s just as you start things start to shift around you, something at some point is not gonna go exactly to plan. Right.

Wendy Dodds:

Right. Whether you

Kate Beere:

get you get stuck you’re stuck in the mud or you just went off course. Like Yeah. Whatever that is, it’s never just gonna go the way you want it need to. Yeah. So And

Wendy Dodds:

being okay with that.

Kate Beere:

Being okay with and being okay with being stuck.

Wendy Dodds:

Yeah.

Kate Beere:

Okay. I’m stuck in the mud for 4 hours. Okay. Like, you’re stuck. Like, if that happened to you when you were driving, you’d be like, oh, this text, but you wouldn’t then never get back in your car and drive again.

Rob Dale:

Yeah. Right.

Kate Beere:

Right? But we have this mindset that when we get stuck, it’s over. Right? Oh, that’s say, now I’m stuck. I’m done.

Eric Deschamps:

The change is mistake. I should never have started this journey

Wendy Dodds:

the 1st place.

Kate Beere:

You know, I’m feeling this.

Rob Dale:

And I think should is you one of the first things you need to do when you feel stuck is to identify what you mean by stuck.

Kate Beere:

Yeah. And so to put your hands around it.

Rob Dale:

Yeah. Put some words around it. Like, we say this so often. When we name something, we often take away the power it has.

Eric Deschamps:

Right. And Name it to to name it

Rob Dale:

to tame it. So this notion of, well, what do when I say I’m stuck, what do I really mean? What is that look like practically? What does it truly look like? And and we’ve again, another theme that has really come out over the last number of episodes is the journaling, the writing it down, getting your thoughts out. And that’s certainly when you’re stuck, one of the first things you should do is open up a new pad Yeah.

Wendy Dodds:

Try With

Rob Dale:

a pay with a pen and start writing down in that notebook, what am I stuck about? What does this look like? How does this what is and how does this feel? Just get it all out, so now you can look at it and say, okay. Now it’s something I can deal with. Right? I can solve this or I could begin to build a plan to solve it Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:

Because I’ve identified. Yeah. Stuck is not an emotion

Wendy Dodds:

as well. I I

Eric Deschamps:

wanna like, let’s get clear. Jump. Like, when we talk about feeling words, a feeling stuck is actually not an emotion. Like I said, in many cases, it’s an illusion. So getting clear. I think beyond even, I I think writing things down, great place to start. Sometimes you may need to go beyond that. Who do you talk to? Who are the people that you can, change.

Eric Deschamps:

Who are your your wise counselors? Right? Yeah. Again, careful who you talk to when you’re stuck. Because if you surround yourself or have people in your life That are very negative or have a

Rob Dale:

victim mindset.

Eric Deschamps:

Minded people. With stuck minded people. You don’t you’re you’re not gonna get stuck, hang around with people that are have a victim mentality or pessimists or even I would say to borrow Ben Bergeron’s model, the overly optimistic people that gloss over the real shit that’s showing up.

Rob Dale:

You’ll get over it.

Eric Deschamps:

Right. Right. Because, again, the pessimist is telling themselves stories, the victim is telling themselves stories. The optimist is telling themselves stories.

Wendy Dodds:

Yep.

Eric Deschamps:

It’s the realist who’s able to look at look at the situation head on

Wendy Dodds:

Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:

And say, okay. So here’s the opportunity. Here’s the challenge. What’s the way forward? But doing that on your own, let’s face it. We’re not wired do this alone, we are wired for community. And and so meaningful change, trying to do that on your own, trying to get unstuck in that process on your own, It’s gonna be really tough. It took me I I, I was thinking about, like, heroes based on another episode we were doing and about significant people in my life, and I don’t really have heroes. There’s been people that have influenced over time.

Eric Deschamps:

I think I told you this earlier. If I was to list 2 people, it would be Jim Harrington and Sherry Keene

Kate Beere:

Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:

Right, who have changed my life and helped me transform in ways I never thought possible, but they’re not heroic in in the way that perhaps society would portray what a hero looks like.

Wendy Dodds:

Change.

Eric Deschamps:

But it’s having the right people in your life that can help you challenge the illusions you’re creating and the stories you’re telling yourself

Wendy Dodds:

Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:

Do. And help you find the way there’s always a way forward.

Wendy Dodds:

But I

Wendy Dodds:

like that you mentioned the community piece because I just had this conversation with my daughter last week. If something is not working, take a look at your environment, and it might be, being open to other people that are going to be more, Not necessarily so supportive, yes, but more open to helping you with whatever it is that you’re trying to change. It might not be the circle that you’re in right now. And I know when people start to ask or think about, well, how do I measure that progress? So I’m on this journey of change with whatever it is. How do I measure that progress? Part of having that right community might be being really open and vulnerable to feedback and having those conversations with whoever that person is around, you know, give me feedback on how either I’m doing so far or here’s what I’ve done so far, and and be super open to that. I think that’s such a great way to be able to measure your progress if you’re open to getting that feedback. And it might not be feedback that we wanna hear. Yeah.

Wendy Dodds:

Because nobody wants to hear shitty feedback.

Wendy Dodds:

Yeah.

Wendy Dodds:

But it might be feedback that we need to start to make little tweaks on whatever change

Kate Beere:

It’s also, like, encouragement. Like, you were talking about one of your leaders. I was on with doctor Sherry, who’s now famous. But I was talking to her, and she’s like, Kate, have you, like because I’ve had a lot of change in the last, like, I’m gonna say 9 months. Yeah. And she’s like, have you have you stopped and, like, celebrated, Like, any of your wins. And I’m like, when you were saying that, it was reminding me because I could hear Sherry, and I’m like I’m like, oh, look. I haven’t done it.

Kate Beere:

And she’s like, okay. But you’ve done And I’m like, right. Okay. So, like, having that having that person, you know, and Sherry’s not in my day to day, obviously, but she just gives you that, which for me, it was a sounding board of, like, great. You have all this other stuff you wanna get to, but, like, do you know how much you’ve done? Yeah. Are you honoring yourself? Are you loving on yourself, she’s like, you’re so busy taking care and loving on everyone else. And I remember just being like, oh, I get to celebrate this. Yeah.

Kate Beere:

And I I don’t think I’ve ever celebrated myself. Like, afterwards, I remember just being like, oh, shit. Yeah. Bigger than this this.

Wendy Dodds:

But I love but I love that we have that reminder. But it’s nice when we get people to celebrate us, but I’m a firm believer that you’d need to celebrate yourself. 100%. Rely on other people to do that for you. As nice as it is when we’re recognized, celebrated Huge. If we’re not doing that for ourselves 100

Eric Deschamps:

change. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s I think we’re so obsessed and focused on what’s wrong that we stop celebrating what’s strong and building on that. Yeah. So celebrating the the growth, celebrating the small wins, celebrating how far you’ve come. Again, we we often I go back to the statement about we overestimate what we could do in a day, but we underestimate what we can do in a year.

Eric Deschamps:

If we look from day to day, we might not be able to see much progress.

Wendy Dodds:

No.

Eric Deschamps:

But but start thinking about where you were 3 months ago,

Wendy Dodds:

where you were 6 months ago,

Eric Deschamps:

where you were 6 months ago, where you were a year ago. And I can guarantee if you’re on a growth if you’re, got a growth mindset and you’re leaning into that journey Mhmm. There’ll be plenty of stuff to celebrate. And you talk about encouraging yourself. Right? The word encourage, I love it. It literally means in the original Greek to put your courage into someone else. But we we need to learn that skill for ourselves because I agree with you. We are our own primary caretaker.

Eric Deschamps:

Right? Caregiver. I am my own primary caregiver. If I look to someone else to do that for me, I I used to do that in my relationships, I used to do that in my life, we’re gonna be disappointed. But the art of encouraging yourself is the ability to look at the journey Yeah. And see the wins and say, I’m grateful for that. Look.

Rob Dale:

I’ve Right.

Eric Deschamps:

I I I can see that. I celebrate that. I mark it in time. And this is the power of reflective practice is Yeah. It is about celebrating. Yeah. It’s also about looking at increasing your awareness about other areas you wanna continue to grow in or the same area you wanna continue to evolve in. But we if we can’t celebrate, it’s that’s why it’s so hard.

Eric Deschamps:

I think one of the reasons it’s so hard. It just feels like we’re never making progress, and we’ve got to be able to see the progress.

Wendy Dodds:

Yep. Right. And I think putting pen to paper on those little wins is what we do. We forget so easily, we get so caught up in all the things we’re not doing that we forget all of that. Yeah. As we start to wrap things up on, You know, learning about how we can, implement change, work through change, all of that. We’ll go around, the table here, but what is one small thing, one small change that you guys would kinda come out and say that our listeners could implement today that could lead to a richer life tomorrow.

Kate Beere:

I gotta say I say this one a lot, but pause. I think just, like, pause, Get present, spend time with yourself. It’s reflection. We were we’re talking about that a lot. Maybe it’s because it’s near the end of the year. I don’t know. Yeah. It’s sort of like starting to reflect back, I think just spending time with yourself and figuring out you know, that can lead to change.

Kate Beere:

It can lead to no change. It could just it I think it just gets you present to where you are in your life. Yeah. And we’re so uncomfortable with it in general that I think spend time with yourself, get to know yourself, self you know, challenge yourself. What do you want? Where do you wanna be? And and I think that can help you shape the life you want.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. I love that. I I would add, Just do you. Give yourself permission to be yourself. Don’t make The resolution don’t let the resolutions you make or the commitments you make be because of some external pressure or expectation or it’s what society wants or your family wants or your friends want. Get clear on what you want and start leaning into that, that’s where change starts to come alive.

Rob Dale:

Yeah. I would right from the tattoo on my arm is show yourself some grace. You this notion of the compassion and the the kinda tying in a little bit with what you just said, I would say, you know, love yourself accept yourself, recognize that making those changes isn’t gonna change who you are. It’s not gonna change how you accept yourself if you don’t. You have to start there. So start with just simply showing grace to yourself.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. Love that.

Wendy Dodds:

And I’d probably finish off by just, Adding, check your morning routine. Mhmm. What are you doing every morning when you wake up? You know, as soon as we wake up, we’re already starting to think about all the things we need to do. Take that 5 to 10 minutes, for some of us, it might be a little shorter. For some of us, it might be a little bit longer. But to Kate’s point, pausing, journaling some of your thoughts, you know, all of those things are easy to do, but easier not to do. But before we start hopping on the Gram and going through all social media and all that, check your morning routine because how you start your day is how you run your day.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. Absolutely. I love that.

Wendy Dodds:

Conversation today, guys. Really good conversation.

Eric Deschamps:

Really great.

Wendy Dodds:

Thanks for joining us When you Today and choosing us to listen to don’t forget to like, share, and subscribe because we do value your feedback, and sharing is caring. You can check out our website At livingrichly.me, all of the show notes and the links for some of the books and everything that we talked about. And send us a message if there’s certain things that resonated with you. Change. We are so open to feedback, and we would absolutely love to hear from you. So until next time, continue living your best life.

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