👉 Design the life you’ve always dreamed of. Take the 15-Day Life Vision Challenge today! https://liverichly.me/15daychallenge 👉 Join our private Facebook Group now for exclusive content! https://liverichly.me/livingrichlynation Dive into “Advice to My Younger Self: Masculinity Redefined” on the Living Richly Podcast. In this episode, Rob and Eric, returning guests psychologist Matthew Rippeyoung, and grief specialist Don Lachance explore the transformative advice they would impart to their younger selves about navigating the complexities of masculinity. This candid discussion includes personal anecdotes and professional insights that shed light on how young men can redefine masculinity for a more fulfilling and authentic life.

The panellists share strategies for overcoming societal expectations, embracing vulnerability, and fostering resilience. Whether seeking guidance on personal growth or understanding masculinity’s modern landscape, this episode offers valuable perspectives. Tune in to reshape your approach to manhood and discover how to live your best life through Mindful Masculinity.

Show Notes for Episode 97

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Episode 97 Transcript

Advice to my Younger Self – Masculinity Redefined

Rob Dale:
Fitting in is not belonging. Fitting in is I have to be someone else Yeah. Change it. In order to fit. Right? Belonging is I am who I am and you accept me as I am and that’s how

Matthew Rippeyoung:
we connect. Like, if you allow yourself to actually think about what your feelings are, think about and experience your experiences, it gives

Don Lachance:
you more data so you can make better decisions. Maybe we’re assuming something that actually isn’t true because we’re all examples where certain nuggets of information we’re very open to at a young age.

Don Lachance:
We’ve been living off the rail for such a long time that it’s difficult for us to think that there’s a better way forward for us. It’s too late. No. It’s not.

Rob Dale:
Welcome back, everybody, to the Living Richly podcast. We’re so glad that you’re tuning in. Once again, we’re so grateful for your ongoing support of the show. And today, we are really excited to welcome back 2 former guests, Matthew Rippe Young. You are with us on episode 78. Mhmm. Number 78 for anybody who wants to go back and listen, and we had such a great conversation with you then. You’re a psychologist.

Rob Dale:
You have your own practice. Right? I mean, helping people for a very long time, And we’re we’re glad to welcome back Don LaChanze, old, old friend of ours. And by old, I mean Old. Old friend. Old. Old. He’s also old.

Eric Deschamps:
He fits both categories.

Rob Dale:
Older. He fits both categories, but you were with us. Talk you’re a grief specialist. One of the many things that you do among that is grief specialist, and you spoke to us about that in episodes, 6566. So for anyone again who wants to go find that, but, gentlemen, great

Don Lachance:
to have you here. And and we should probably announce now the pool that, we have around how long it’s gonna take for this episode to go completely off the rails.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
I think that’s right. Exactly.

Don Lachance:
Yeah. That’s why I was trying to extend out the sort of introduction. You had 24 seconds?

Rob Dale:
I said you’re trying

Don Lachance:
to just I just trying

Rob Dale:
to keep it on the rails at least during the intro. It’s over. And it’s over already. Okay. But no. I’m excited about this conversation because we reached out to the 2 of you not long ago. You know that we’ve been having these conversations around mindful, masculinity, and it’s been interesting to watch the reaction to those conversations, both positively, and we’ve gotten some, negative blowback as well. But we thought we’d come together and have a conversation around advice to our younger selves.

Rob Dale:
If we could go back in time knowing what we know now, let’s face it. Men today are in a bit of a quandary when it comes to what does it mean to be male now in today’s society. And I think that’s a good quandary. It’s making us rethink all kinds of things. But for young men today, it can be very, very confusing. And so kind of in that context, what advice we would have.

Don Lachance:
And and and we talked about we’re joking right before we began to record about how, you know, how young because, you know, how what at what age were we ready? And I’m curious. I’m gonna ask you guys this. Yep. I’d I’d what stage in your life were you ready to start to receive and to learn? And when we when did you become open, to the realization that, you know, I can learn, I can get advice from other people? Do you remember when that kind of moment happened or or at the stage of life you were in when you started to receive that?

Jason Spears:
Yesterday.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
Like, any

Jason Spears:
any No.

Don Lachance:
I’m still not sure I am.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Spears:
Yeah. Yeah. Do I get to pick and choose? Like, leap in and how I feel about things? Yeah. It, like started early on for me because, just such a decrepit existence prior to that, like, you know, wanting to wanting to learn, wanting to know more.

Don Lachance:
When you started into recovery, would it be in that kind of age bracket, or was it before that that you were already ready to receive from others?

Jason Spears:
I think I’ve always been ready to receive. Like, I I I do, and and I think it it just really kinda speaks to the deep empath traits in me. Right.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
You

Jason Spears:
know, and and wanting to be able to provide and and help and, elements like that. So, yeah, I I’ve always been willing to take information in.

Rob Dale:
Well, that’s up for me because I honestly, when I was asking the question and prepping for the show, I’m like, okay. If I was to go back and speak to my younger self, I’m like, at what age would I have to go back in time to where I’d be willing to listen? Because I I think of how long I I would like you, I think was open, but not on certain fronts. Right? But what about for you?

Trefor Munn Venn:
I don’t think I’ve ever been cursed with the affliction of, like, I need to know everything or I need to be the authority on everything. Mhmm. So I would, like I’d go back to teenage years. Yeah. Right. It was, like, oh, like, I don’t have to do all the things. Like, there are other people. Yeah.

Trefor Munn Venn:
And so it’s been very helpful.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
Yeah.

Don Lachance:
Yeah. And and same. I I would certainly go back and say, certainly, you know, 12, 13, 14 is really when I started to recognize and recognize that and begin to be open to, again, not in every area

Matthew Rippeyoung:
Yeah.

Don Lachance:
But in many areas ready to receive that. And it’s interesting because we have the notion, oh, young people, they’re not they’re they think they know it all. They’re not willing to listen. And, actually, we’re gonna kinda maybe debunk that a bit and say, we do have the opportunity to go back to the younger people that might be listening or those that are listening that have younger people, and they go, I’m never gonna share an episode with my kids because they wouldn’t even be open to it. Well, maybe they would. Yeah. Maybe they would. Maybe maybe we’re assuming something that actually isn’t true because we’re all examples where certain nuggets of information we’re very open to at a young age.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. I think for me, what, what cracked me open even more and made me more desperate and open to receiving input was pain. Right? The when I started to realize that much of what I’d grown up with in terms of constructs, beliefs, everything else, when that wasn’t working, the the less that worked, the more more open I became to seek out new answers and and and better ways of doing things. I’m curious, gentlemen, like, from your perspective, what do you think are some of the more common most common, most difficult challenges that young men face today when it comes to the understanding of what it means, to be male in today’s society?

Trefor Munn Venn:
One thing that really leaps out for me is, like, when you talk about how far back do you need to go, if we’re talking to young men, it’s already too late. Like, we need to be talking to boys. Right. The

Rob Dale:
Oh, good point.

Trefor Munn Venn:
Well, no. This is the thing, though. It’s like because at 12, 13, 14, there there’s this whole mess of boys that are being told, like, you have too much, you take up too much space. You know, like, with all the ways in which we need to make space for everybody, little boys getting told that they’re really privileged. Like, at 13, when you’re a zitty and you don’t wanna get called to the board because you’ve got a boner in your gym pants, Like, you do not feel privileged. Right. And so it doesn’t relate. And so then all these boys are, like, right.

Trefor Munn Venn:
They’re ready to be plucked by the Jordan Petersons, by the Andrew Tates, who are, like, no. Being a man is great, and here’s how to do it. And they get all these shitty messages. Right. And so that then by the time that they’re men, they’re fucking up their relationships and, you know, there’s a ton of people that pay the price for that stuff.

Don Lachance:
So I think they go through the pain that you’re talking about because they didn’t learn and be open at that early age.

Trefor Munn Venn:
Well, and they weren’t hearing more nuanced messages.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
Right.

Trefor Munn Venn:
And so we really need to be talking to boys Mhmm. And helping boys take up the right amount of space, take up their space, not more, not less. Right.

Rob Dale:
No. I love that.

Jason Spears:
I I think that’s such a powerful distinction, to make. You know, when you think about that, when I look at my history and I I wanted to live as a man at the age of 7. Yeah.

Don Lachance:
Great.

Jason Spears:
You know? When when you think about that really and Wow. You know, the the distinction there, like, talking to boys, I don’t know of a boy who would wanna be treated like a boy. Mhmm. Yeah. You know? Like, that’s the big struggle for so many because of that conditioning. Like, I I look at my situation with my dad who was a phys ed instructor in the army. I was being brought up by my grandfather who was a World War 2 vet, or an Ottawa Rough Rider. Well, they were called the big four back then, but, you know, a famous lacrosse player.

Rob Dale:
You are old. Yeah.

Jason Spears:
I know. I know. I know. And I’m feeling just now that I can be a boy.

Trefor Munn Venn:
Mhmm. Wow. Wow.

Jason Spears:
You know?

Rob Dale:
What a statement.

Jason Spears:
Well, be because of just the willingness to get out there, and and it’s just such a better equipping for us because boys, who are they comparing themselves to? And in this day and age with technology the way it is, if we don’t think that the boys are looking for identity Yeah. And it’s just facilitated by the loud voices like the Petersons, like the Andrew Ditts.

Don Lachance:
And in in our day where a lot of that because the social media wasn’t around, like, I can remember at 10 years old is when I was 10 when Star Wars came out. And all this You’re

Rob Dale:
old too.

Don Lachance:
Yeah. I all of a sudden, it was Han Solo. Han Solo was

Rob Dale:
That’s right. You said that.

Don Lachance:
And I remember that I would walk around with that bravado of of, well, what would Han Solo do? And that’s how I would act. Right? And and you you just

Rob Dale:
you’re Who didn’t want Chewbacca as a best friend? Like, let’s Right.

Don Lachance:
Well, you know, that was great. Yeah.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Dale:
That was the one like, have you ever seen there was a commercial about, Chewbacca in a studio, total aside. And the the the producer keeps saying, okay. Now give me sad, and he makes the same sound.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
I’ll give

Rob Dale:
you angry. Same sound. Now give me happy. Same sound that explains it. And this producer keeps saying, you nailed it. You nailed it. It’s it’s hilarious. I have to try to find that too.

Rob Dale:
Sorry. Total assault. Rail. Off the rails.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
Off the

Rob Dale:
rails. You were saying something very, very

Don Lachance:
No. I was done. You had jumped in and agree you were you were jumping in and agreeing with me. I was. And then he made the sound. Go ahead. You know that’s gonna be a That’s gonna be a

Rob Dale:
good one.

Trefor Munn Venn:
We’ve got willing participants. Alright.

Rob Dale:
But let’s let’s talk about, so some of programming. I loved how you brought it to we need to start sooner. Right? We need to start when they’re young because that conditioning is a thing. That programming, I think you call it faulty programming. Right? Like, it’s it’s we’ve been wired and conditioned to show up a certain way, and what we realize is that that was an incomplete picture, sometimes completely incorrect, other times just incomplete. We didn’t have the whole what are some of the what you what do you feel are some of the more damaging messages that are messing with men in general, but specifically with young men who are just trying to discover who they are at that stage of life?

Trefor Munn Venn:
No. Like, I really think it goes back to, like, a lack of diversity. There’s one way to be a man. Right. And here’s the box and here’s where you fit and this is what you’re supposed to do. And if you step outside the box, you’re gonna get a black eye.

Rob Dale:
Right.

Trefor Munn Venn:
Like and so it’s very circumscribed, around, you know, what you can and can’t do. And, you know, boys, not only do they not get, like, rewarded for emotional expression, but they often get punished. So it’s not that women are just naturally better at it. It’s that they get a ton more practice. And so I think that, you know Oh,

Rob Dale:
that’s really good. Yeah.

Trefor Munn Venn:
Like, if we let boys practice more, they then get to have more. They get to explore more parts of themselves and recognize that we’re not all the same. It isn’t a cookie cutter. There isn’t one image Yeah. We all should be trying to get towards.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. Love that. Love that. What do you think, Don?

Jason Spears:
Well, it it’s, for me, it it’s kinda we already start pushing them into gender specific activities. And, you know, if I I was to go back and talk to my younger self, I’d I’d be going back quite a distance, but I’d be saying, just be a good person.

Rob Dale:
Right.

Jason Spears:
Like, you know, never mind the role that, like, you think you have to take on or one that I believe you should be fitting into this mold, and these are the things you should be experience experiencing. Just learn how to be a caring, giving, kind, accepting person

Rob Dale:
Yeah.

Jason Spears:
And and drop. You know, I I think we’re we’re experiencing a lot of that now with a lot of the gender struggles and and the wars that are taking place on that front. Like, it’s creating a lot more division than it is anything else from an accepting perspective.

Rob Dale:
Right.

Jason Spears:
You know? So it for for me, it’s all about just I I often talk about living on the edge of of the division coin that the world is experiencing right now, and it’s a lonely existence, and and I live by a simple motto. They will know us by our love for one another. And it’s insignificant or yeah. I don’t care about what people’s choices are. I want a safe place for everybody re regardless of of of what path you wanna walk down or where you feel you’re being pushed, and there’s just so much noise out there and and people wanting to form and and have people fit in.

Rob Dale:
Yeah.

Don Lachance:
Yeah. You’re so right. I I you know, one of the when we, began this series around masculinity, we we and we talk about this certainly when we first introduce it and we probably mention it again in every one of the episodes is we were very deliberate with calling it mindful masculinity. Yeah. We were not, you know, because I I think the toxic masculinity thing is again, that’s all that causes is people to get their backs up and defensive, and it closes off conversation. The pendulum does swing sometimes far too, you know, to the other side when we start having these it’s this or that. And and we see that. Right? And we put those

Rob Dale:
But even how if I can jump in, even how we define toxic masculinity, though, it has been an interesting thing that we’ve explored to say we often lump into toxic masculinity, the extreme versions, of it. Violence, aggression, right, misogyny, all of it. We we put it all in that, lump that into toxic masculinity. But equally toxic is the inability to feel, being emotionally shut down. Yeah. Right? Living in this this this this trap of your own mind and, again, having to feeling like you have to fit into this cookie cutter image of what it means to be a man. And if you don’t, then somehow you’re deficient. Right? Like, that is equally toxic.

Rob Dale:
It it doesn’t have the same repercussions as some of the more extreme versions, but it’s still toxic in terms of, it’s not healthy or it’s really not healthy.

Don Lachance:
Again, going back to mindful, what does it mean to truly be to choose and to and to learn and to embrace that? And that’s what I love about the fact that we’ve got a psychologist and a grief, specialist, here today because these are the areas where so much of what it is to be a man gets experienced. Like so talk a little bit about grief and childhood. We I’m sure most of your work is well, I’m gonna make an assumption here and you can correct my assumption. My assumption is most of your work in in with grief is with adults who are trying to understand and process grief. But what’s it like for for kids, and what would be the message? Even for the parents listening, what what can we teach our children, our our young boys, about how to experience grief, and how to how to express that?

Jason Spears:
It’s interesting because you keep using the word grieve. Yeah. And, really, it’s it’s it’s layers deeper than that. It’s loss. And what we experience on that

Don Lachance:
front give your definition of grief again? Just I know you did, and you wanna correct.

Jason Spears:
Grief really is we want to attribute what we experience in regards to grief to the death of a loved one

Matthew Rippeyoung:
Mhmm.

Jason Spears:
Or the end of a a cherished relationship. Whereas the same emotional turmoil surfaces in us that’s normal and natural when we experience any loss. And they you know, and the examples I gave, I believe, were, like, loss of innocence, loss of value, loss of worth, you know.

Rob Dale:
Loss of a job, even the

Jason Spears:
other losing. Loss of a job, the end of a relationship. Like, there’s loss surrounding all of that. You know, one of the first examples I use with people, like, in initial conversations is asking them if they’ve ever moved. Like and, wow, you you go to your parents when they tell you you’re moving. And, like, I know the experience from watching your episode, like, what was unfolding on that front, Matthew. And we we go to them with this angst and, you know, here are the ex here here are the explanations we get. Well, you your dad or your mom’s got a better job.

Jason Spears:
You’ll be okay, you’ll make new friends. They don’t they don’t acknowledge, they don’t validate any of the pain that we bring to them

Rob Dale:
Mhmm.

Jason Spears:
In in regards to that, and our worlds are falling apart. Yeah. Like, you know, we’re we’re all we’re thinking about is, like, my friends, like, you know, how how I love that park, like, that was my favorite tree to climb and swing in. Like, it all those small things that are really the big things. And the older I get, the more I realize that the small things are really the big things.

Rob Dale:
Oh, I see. Isn’t it that interesting? Because, like, you know, I’ve got all my kids are all adults now. My youngest is, almost 19, started his 2nd year in university.

Trefor Munn Venn:
Time for you to be in.

Rob Dale:
It’s all be what?

Matthew Rippeyoung:
Never mind. Never mind.

Trefor Munn Venn:
I missed that completely.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
I never even know what you said.

Don Lachance:
Watch the episode.

Rob Dale:
Watch the episode. I’ll watch it back. My second daughter just got married, this summer. Right? So I’ve got adult adult children now. But I remember, like, when they’re a bit younger and they’re giving you grief over stuff and they’re telling you how how stressed they are and or and in the back of your mind as an adult, you go, you have no idea. Right? Because we’re thinking, yeah, we’ve got to go to work. We gotta put a roof over your head, make sure you’re taking care of all this other stuff, and you’re stressed out because you got homework and volleyball practice. Right? But we forget that for them at that age, those things that may appear small to us, are actually quite large.

Rob Dale:
And I don’t think we we do a good job. I don’t think I did a good job of raising my kids to know how to process, grief or process loss in any kind of way.

Jason Spears:
But when you when you think about

Rob Dale:
it, great because I wasn’t equipped. Not evil.

Jason Spears:
No. But, like, you know, you it’s funny you use that term, like, you know, like, we forgot and forget the forgetting. Like, we just didn’t have it. Yeah. We we didn’t know. We take in, like, all our really deep rooted beliefs from the people we loved and trusted the most, our parents. Look at Bibi here. What kind of truth did I get Yeah.

Jason Spears:
From a parent? So holy smokes, you move through a life with that. You you we do more deconstructing than we do constructing on most fronts.

Rob Dale:
Matthew, I’m curious. I mean, you’re a psychologist. You help people for a living. You’ve been doing this a very, very long time. Again, your story is still your episode, both of you guys, is some of my favorite episodes, best guests we’ve had on, just because of the conversation was so rich. From your perspective, as you work with people and in your own journey, what misconceptions about masculinity specifically have been beyond the like, when you talk about that box that they have to live in, what are the what are the labels that go into that box that are really holding people back and causing, unnecessary pain and turmoil.

Trefor Munn Venn:
I think one of the big messages is that, you know, boys and men have to figure it out on their own Mhmm. That we’re not supposed to figure it out in relationships.

Rob Dale:
Right.

Trefor Munn Venn:
And, you know, I mean, yes, it’s good to be introspective, but really in a vacuum, you don’t get to know things. And it really is how we bump up against each other that we can start to figure out, you know, what some of the feelings are, some of the thoughts. And, like, you know, I remember in university I studied a lot actually about gender in university, which was handy. And, like, I’d had this socialization class and it was this real eye opener that everything is made up. Like, everything is fucking made up. And so if it’s all made up, we can remake it. You can make it the way that you want to.

Rob Dale:
Love that.

Trefor Munn Venn:
And so as a young man, it was a very freeing set of messages to be getting on the regular. Yeah. But it like, I really it’s just it’s this idea that men are supposed to be solid. We’re supposed to, you know, know the things like the 7 year old who wants to be an adult. Right. Like, you know, I hear 13 14 year olds in my office, you know, talk about, like, they expect to be self sufficient somehow at 18. I’m like, have you seen the like, it wasn’t true when I was at 18. Like, what? Like, I but but they’re like, well, no.

Trefor Munn Venn:
I can’t. You know? And they have, like, wealthy parents and, like, oh, I can’t take money from my parents. I’m like, why wouldn’t you? Like, how are you gonna get started if you don’t have help? Right. And it’s this idea that we’re not supposed to ask for help. Yes. You know? If it comes, that’s maybe we accept it, but, actually, you know, I don’t wanna look like I need it.

Rob Dale:
Right.

Trefor Munn Venn:
And we’re needy.

Rob Dale:
Right.

Trefor Munn Venn:
Like, just as kids, we’re needy. As men, we’re needy. Like, needy is not a problem. Yeah. The problem is denying it.

Rob Dale:
Right. I love that. We we end up I think I I I had a I was in a conversation recently. And I said, I was actually on another podcast where I was being interviewed. And, I said, I think we spend most of our twenties, thirties, late thirties, early forties building this construct. Right? This false self that we think the world expects of us. In context of this show, this would be men, young men feeling I need to show up a certain way that’s socially acceptable. And, you know, 70% of the population, according to recent studies, their sole purpose for existence is fitting in.

Rob Dale:
That’s all they really right? So that pressure to we talk about peer pressure in high school. Fuck high school. It it continues on, far beyond high school. It’s very significant in high school, but it never really ends unless you break the cycle. But I said, I think we spend most of those formative years, twenties, thirties, forties, building this construct only to, at some point, start taking it apart. And then who am I really? Right? And I think the the message I certainly I would love to go back to my younger self, and and share that message. I we were talking about, you know, the the context that I grew up in. You were part of that.

Rob Dale:
You saw me grow up in that very rigid religious environment and feel that the only thing that I could do was do what I ended up doing for 15 years only to know, like, wake up one day and go, this isn’t me.

Don Lachance:
This isn’t me. Like, this

Rob Dale:
this isn’t me. But, again, the conditioning, the programming we receive from others is so significant. Right?

Don Lachance:
Let’s, let’s really spend some time in this advice to our younger selves. And maybe what would be helpful is you and I can just let’s come up with some topics, some some areas. So I’m gonna start. I got one right off the top of the okay. So when it comes to love and relationship, what advice would you give to your younger self?

Trefor Munn Venn:
I mean, really, for me, I probably all my answers are gonna go back to the same thing. But, like, have the frigging feels. Like, it’s okay to feel thing. It doesn’t make you weak. It doesn’t make you like, being vulnerable isn’t your neck isn’t on a cutting board.

Rob Dale:
Right.

Trefor Munn Venn:
Like, if you allow yourself to actually think about what your feelings are, think about and experience your experiences, it gives you more data so you can make better decisions. Like, this idea that, you know, we’re supposed to be a certain way or, like, there are rules. Like, do you remember what was it? Was it Swingers? Did anybody see the movie Swingers in the nineties?

Don Lachance:
I know it, but

Rob Dale:
It sounds familiar.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
But it was for another episode.

Trefor Munn Venn:
I did. But it I think Jon Favreau did it, but it was it was about dating in the nineties. And, you know, there’s the rule that, like, okay, so you have a first date, so you have to wait 2 days before you can call. And this was, you know, before cell phones and texting and whatever.

Rob Dale:
Yep.

Trefor Munn Venn:
But, like, all you know, there are these rules or in the nineties too, there was the I think the book was called The Rules about, you know, how women could get men to propose marriage to them. And there’s, like, all the it’s, like, garbage. Like, I mean, I love trash TV. But all this garbage that there are these ways, it takes out the idea that what are my personal experiences. Like, how do I feel about this

Rob Dale:
Yeah.

Trefor Munn Venn:
As opposed to like, I mean, I think people should, you know, kinda figure out who you are first, not what am I supposed to be, what’s the goal here, because that gets you away from yourself. And so if you figure out, okay, well, who and how am I? Then you can figure out where do I fit.

Rob Dale:
Right.

Trefor Munn Venn:
What really works for me? And spend more time there as opposed to jamming your feet into, like, a size 3 shoe.

Rob Dale:
Right? Oh, I love that analogy.

Don Lachance:
You know, from I know for me, to answer the question is, I I think if if I was to go back to my younger self, relationships aren’t about you just giving.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
Mhmm.

Don Lachance:
And can you know, so basically surrendering your own wants and needs for the sake of someone else or a relationship isn’t about you disappearing into somebody else, would probably be something I would, I would say to my younger self.

Rob Dale:
That’s that’s part part of something. It’s part of the conditioning. Right? Like, that that men aren’t supposed to be needy. That men are not supposed to that we’re supposed to figure it all out. Right?

Trefor Munn Venn:
When we provide.

Rob Dale:
Right. Exactly. We’re supposed to be the helper and hold everything together. And, when things get tough, you know, just rub some dirt on it. Right? Like, just out hustle it, outmuscle it. And I think, again, in our earlier years when we’re younger, we’re well, 1, we we we don’t even know what we’re dealing with yet, so we don’t know how to. So we just up the the effort. Right? We we do out hustle and outmuscle it to a degree, but we’re not dealing.

Rob Dale:
We’re all we’re doing is Yeah. Yeah. I’m good. I’m good. Right?

Don Lachance:
Steve’s gonna love that on the audio.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
It’s gonna be exciting. Steve. We’re gonna Hey. Hey.

Don Lachance:
Don, what would you what would you tell your younger self when it comes to relationships?

Jason Spears:
I I agree with with Matthew in regards to, experiencing the fields.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
Mhmm.

Jason Spears:
Take that trip from your head to your heart, 13 inches in the average human body.

Rob Dale:
Longest journey ever.

Jason Spears:
Yeah. The longest journey ever. And getting getting people to, at least, acknowledge what they are feeling.

Rob Dale:
Mhmm.

Jason Spears:
Not try and master it, but to simply acknowledge. Because from acknowledgment, the pathway then leads to acceptance. And that’s where responsibility kinda comes into the fold, and we get to make better decisions. We get to open up a little more. It it it’s interesting. I almost wore a tap out hoodie here. Yeah. Like, I’m a big UFC fan.

Jason Spears:
Right? And, I I I was thinking about that. What does tapping out mean? And I think a lot of people will look at it as

Rob Dale:
That’s most men’s emotional strategy. Right. Well Just I’m out.

Jason Spears:
No. I I I I think it isn’t. They fight that. Some of them go out. Right. Like, they fight that. They won’t tap out. And I think a a better strategy and a better application of the tap out is to do that because that provides you with the pathway to fight again.

Jason Spears:
That provides you with a pathway to move forward and and

Don Lachance:
out before they tap out.

Jason Spears:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know? And what’s that drive from? I’ve gotta be the toughest. Like Right. You know, I grew up in a tavern. Like, that’s my education was in a tavern, and, like, that’s a whole other organism. Right? Like, that’s a whole other world.

Jason Spears:
And you watch what unfolds within those 4 walls, and you can’t show weakness. Mhmm. Like, you can’t show any of that. No emotion. You’re called to do things that, like, go against every bit of you. And so you can imagine the struggle. BB here, the deepest empath I know. And, like Yeah.

Jason Spears:
I I I experienced it once more in in a young brother-in-law who would get into fights, and he’d bring the kids home that he beat up, wash them up, give them an apple, and send them home.

Rob Dale:
That’s so

Jason Spears:
But but think of it fucked up.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
Like Well, it it is.

Rob Dale:
But I just don’t beat them up.

Trefor Munn Venn:
It is. Here’s the apple.

Don Lachance:
Yeah. But

Jason Spears:
but we’re not there. Right? Because we’re we’re trying to

Don Lachance:
be They haven’t earned the apple.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
They haven’t earned the apple. Yeah. We’re trying

Jason Spears:
to be that. But you see here, even attaching the word, they haven’t earned it. Yeah. Like, we feel we’ve always gotta earn something, that it’s not ours, that it’s not there for the taking. And the more we feel, the broader the scope is of options we get.

Trefor Munn Venn:
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Spears:
So What about you?

Rob Dale:
I wish I would have heard the message about loving myself a lot sooner, because it would it would take me a long time. I lived with the and and I’ve talked about it openly in the show. And, you know, I when I tell people deep self loathing, like, I use those words very, very deliberately. This wasn’t just I I don’t feel good about myself. Like, I honestly believed that I was different. Here I was pushed to the front of the room from a young age to lead part of it because of my just my energy and, right, I was always an energetic kid that wanted to help people, so I get pushed to the front of the room. And, then before I know it, I’m 23 years old. I’m running a church plant, like, planting a brand new church, and I’m the leader.

Rob Dale:
I don’t even know who I am yet. I don’t even have a fully formed brain. And here I am at the front of the room expected to do all this

Don Lachance:
Counseling, parent

Rob Dale:
Counsel. Counsel. People are coming to me counseling, and I’m like, what the fuck? I didn’t go to school for it. Right? I went to Bible College. So, you know, people come to me for help, and I’m and yet you felt this need. Right? And so I I always felt like I was flawed. Like, I I that I was an imposter. I didn’t, belong there.

Rob Dale:
And then if anybody found out, like, they they would, like, they would what what the hell is he doing at the front of the room kinda thing. Right?

Trefor Munn Venn:
Is it all that sin stuff? Like, that because often, like, I have other friends who had very active religious life as young people. And, like, one in particular, like, she is the sweetest, kindest person, and she’s like,

Don Lachance:
I’m the worst.

Rob Dale:
100%. Like, the the fear, guilt, and shame piece that comes from religious context is I was on another show, just last week, and, the lady asked me, you know, what drove you to do what you do today? So I said, well, so part of my background. And people are always like a little

Matthew Rippeyoung:
shout out to you. Yeah.

Rob Dale:
You were a what? I mean, you know what that’s like. Right? Like, you were a what? Well, I

Jason Spears:
watched him experience talk about

Don Lachance:
it openly. About it on the show. He’s like, I find

Rob Dale:
that these guys were 2 x past, and I don’t

Don Lachance:
know if

Rob Dale:
I won’t even get near them. Right? But it I I I came to this I was telling you a story about, like, it was such a struggle for me, and and then she starts talking about how she’s, from a Methodist background and not churchgoer, but grew up Methodist. Her husband grew Catholic. And she she labeled they have these conversations as as a couple, and she’ll say, oh, that’s my Methodist guilt showing up, or this is my Catholic guilt showing up. But fear, guilt, and shame. You talk about the sin thing. You talk about trying to live up to these impossible standards. And if you’ve got any insecurity, low self esteem of any kind, it’s just like gaslighting from fire.

Don Lachance:
One of the most famous hymns, in the church world, right, which again with in old English is such a worm as I. Right? Like, that’s the languages. And and and I Why

Trefor Munn Venn:
you don’t feel good?

Matthew Rippeyoung:
And I remember well, and I I

Don Lachance:
remember when I when I, you know, was right in the midst of that, you would preach things like you’re not worthless, but you’re unworthy. And Wow. Right? Right? That was the message. Wow. We’re outside of outside of God, outside of Christ, we’re unworthy. And so, of course, when that’s a driving message, to children, to to to young men in that world, then again, I know lots of wonderful people that have come out of that world that maybe even are still in that world, and we’re not here to to kinda just destroy or criticize any spiritual walk other than we would encourage anybody, whether they’re Christian, Buddhist, nonreligious, whatever, is be open and explore the what is out there, and I think that’s the message. But, yeah, for us, that was the upbringing. It’s the only way you have worth is do god’s will.

Jason Spears:
Here here’s here’s an ugly, uncomfortable statement. What are we taught as parents? Train them up in the way that they should go. So hand off all of the stuff we’re indoctrinating you with into your kids so that they don’t ask questions.

Rob Dale:
But this is just another of one of many examples of when we we think about again, Keegan and Leahy and their work, and they talk about, the three stages of adult brain development, the socialized brain, self authoring, self transforming. 70% of people, the socialized brain is that stage where basically at the age of about 24, 25, you now have a fully formed brain, and it grew or developed into that all on its own without any help from you. But adult brain development requires conscious effort. It doesn’t dissipation. And 70% of the population never evolved beyond it. And it’s, again, the all they’re doing is, living a life, a supposed life. Whatever messages are out there, they’re they’re using that to find self definition. Why? Because that’s the only way you can fit in.

Rob Dale:
And I love what Brene Brown says. She says, you know, we’re actually looking to belong. That’s what we’re looking for. We are wired for belonging as human beings. Right? Fitting in is not belonging. Fitting in is I have to be someone else Yeah. Change in. In order to fit.

Rob Dale:
Right? Belonging is I am who I am, and you accept me as I am, and that’s how we connect.

Trefor Munn Venn:
Right?

Rob Dale:
Mhmm. But I think a lot of men don’t even really even know who they are.

Trefor Munn Venn:
No. Well, and not encouraged to look.

Rob Dale:
Right.

Jason Spears:
Right. Like And and some of them completely adverse to accepting who they really are because they view themselves as not good people.

Rob Dale:
Like,

Jason Spears:
you know, they’re they’re a threat to society. They’re a threat to their family. Living with that, like, I I went through my first relationship.

Rob Dale:
Right. I I’m just curious. Like, if you like, you think of, like, again, traditional male sort of thing. Right? Like, the provider. So many men, that I know and work and work with from a coaching perspective, like leaders, often feel like they’re successful in the workplace, but not so successful with their kids, not so successful in their primary love relationship. Most of them don’t have a strong they may have a lot of bros, right in their network, but they don’t have true friends. And so because they’re feeling like, in many ways, feeling like they’re failing on those fronts, they just double down on their career. They double down and work even harder at the office and longer hours, and then it creates even more problems.

Rob Dale:
Is that part of the issue?

Jason Spears:
Well, you see, I I think that’s the biggest struggle. It’s the feeling. Like, the the the discomfort that surfaces with the actual feeling of inadequacy, of not really understanding my partner to the level I should. You know, it’s easier for me to stay at work, easier for me to hang out at the tavern with my buddies, like, who have, like, zero expectation on me. And it’s not that the expectation is bad, it’s my feeling of inadequacy to not be able to meet that expectation. So, you know, was one one of the terms that, like, we were looking at in regards to expectancy versus expecting. Right. And, you know, I I tried to teach my kids that.

Jason Spears:
Like, when we have an expectation, we’ve attached a result to it. Mhmm. And if we don’t experience that result, we live

Rob Dale:
Yeah.

Jason Spears:
With a degree of guilt, with a degree of shame. We live just, like, incomplete. Yeah. Whereas expectancy, we get to celebrate whatever shows up if we choose to. We can discard, we can sift, we can sort.

Trefor Munn Venn:
Right.

Jason Spears:
And so all of that, like, coming into play. It’s for me, and and it always comes back to the feels. Yeah. Like, if you aren’t giving yourself permission to feel, because if we look at, like, this toxic masculinity and Yep. And all of that, everything that they set their faces like flint against Right. Is because there’s this incredible discomfort on the emotional level. They’re prepped and they feel they’re prepped, and they do everything they can for the onslaught that’s coming towards them from the world, and I’m good, bro. Yeah.

Jason Spears:
I can take it. Yet inside, here’s this little 7 year old just completely depleted of all worth, all value, struggling to who can help me on this front?

Rob Dale:
What does that provoke for you as Don shares that?

Trefor Munn Venn:
Well, it makes me think about kind of one of my soap boxes is process versus outcome. Mhmm. You know, you’re talking about the expectation being attached to, you know, we have to have this outcome. We don’t really control outcomes. Like, we sell a lot of lies around if you do the right things, then you get to have these things. We don’t control that shit.

Rob Dale:
Right.

Trefor Munn Venn:
What we can control is our process. And so our process tends to be better if we’re more in tune with who we actually are, if we’re more able to experience our feelings and the discomfort that we have from our feelings and use that as data. Like, we can use that as science, you know, to help us do things differently so that even if your process like, if your process is good, if you’re connected, if you’re doing things that recognize the humanity of others, you might still have a crappy outcome, but you’re gonna feel way better than if you compromised your process, if you did the things that I’m supposed to do. And then, you know, you get the thing that you didn’t even think about whether or not you wanted. Yeah. I mean, I make a lot of money off of people who, you know, have done all the things. And they get to their mid thirties and they’re like It’s not working. So, like, is this well but they’re like, is this it? Like, I did the thing.

Trefor Munn Venn:
I I went to school. I got married. I had kids. I bought the house, in the neighborhood that’s supposed to and there’s a park and everything. And, like, I just wanna peel my skin off every day. Like, why do I feel that way? And it’s always like, well, did you think about what you wanted? And they’re like, what? Yeah. I could have done that?

Matthew Rippeyoung:
There there was there was another pot.

Trefor Munn Venn:
There’s a

Jason Spears:
and and the automatic question the automatic question is, why do I feel that way? Yeah. And that’s where we search for the answers.

Rob Dale:
Why do I feel this way, but I’m not allowed to feel? Right? Or Yeah. Or feeling is not okay. Feeling’s bad. Listen. We’ve been, a number of these shows now, we’ve we’ve kinda, talked about these male archetypes that have shaped the male psyche literally for, like, a long time. Right? We talked about the lone wolf. We’ve talked about, the stoic. We’ve talked about the live action hero or the warrior, on some other shows.

Rob Dale:
But what what’s what’s frightening as we were diving into these conversations, one was some of the blowback. What I’m hearing today is from all of you, is, I wish it I knew it was okay to be vulnerable, to feel what I’m feeling and process that much earlier. The message is not that vulnerability is okay. What I’m hearing is vulnerability is vital. Yeah. It’s crucial, right, to to being healthy and and and resilient. You’ve got them fired up. I

Matthew Rippeyoung:
I know. But then, like, that’s that’s what makes you tough. Right. Like, if you’re

Trefor Munn Venn:
not vulnerable, you can be tough as fuck. Like Wow. Because you have all the feeling. Like, you’re, oh, yeah. I can I can ask for help, or I know how this goes? I’ve done this before as opposed to, okay. I’m just gonna get through it.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
Most quotable moment of the

Rob Dale:
show, vulnerability makes you tough as fuck. Now we heard, and and I I remember you even commented on this, when we were talking about it online, one of the first responses from a a listener to the show when we started that first conversation was that you guys are contributing to everything that men makes men weak. Vulnerability is for women. Right? Was the statement. Right? Like, you’re you’re basically, you’re doing it wrong, and and we’re trying to say no. Like, it’s the statistics are frightening. And I’m I may get these wrong because it’s been a while since I looked at them, so I may get them backwards. But as men reach their mid fifties, right, most of us have not done a good job for all kinds of reasons.

Rob Dale:
Many of the reasons that we’ve already been discussing at building out a healthy community. Usually, our primary relationship is our significant other. That’s it. And with divorce rates being what they are, there’s an awful lot of men in their mid fifties, sixties that are ending up alone. And the suicide rates, you wanna talk about a pandemic. Like, it’s crazy. And this is where I may get it wrong. It may be the other way around, but I think it’s 4 out of 5 suicides in the US, are are are men, in that age bracket, and, 3 out of 4 in Canada.

Rob Dale:
Might be the other way around, but either way

Jason Spears:
Does it matter?

Trefor Munn Venn:
It’s a frightening 75 or 80%. Right. Like like

Matthew Rippeyoung:
At that Not good.

Rob Dale:
It’s a pandemic. It’s a real problem. And and and I think a big reason is that men don’t open up. Men feel a need to figure it all out, and you reach a stage in life now you’re potentially alone or have a very small social network and every your your ability to outhustle and outmuscle it, you don’t have it anymore. You don’t have the energy to do it, and it’s a very sad place to end up in.

Jason Spears:
Well and and you’ve got a track record of that not working.

Rob Dale:
Right. And yet you double down

Jason Spears:
on it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let me Well,

Trefor Munn Venn:
but if you only have one tool, like

Jason Spears:
Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
To a to a hammer. Right? Everything’s in there.

Jason Spears:
Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. I I love that. Like, regardless of where you stop in the circle, the road to recovery is feeling. Right. Is is like getting to that place. Yeah.

Jason Spears:
You know? When I look at what I brought into my relationships, Holy fuck. Did anybody have a chance to experience any value from me? Like, you know, think about that. And and not just that, in in the defects that we come into relationships with, We’re looking for the balance in the partners we’re choosing that are going to really provide us what we think we need. Yeah. You know?

Rob Dale:
Yeah. It’s, a It’s it’s a it’s fucked up.

Jason Spears:
Yeah. It it it it is. It is. Yeah. It is.

Rob Dale:
I I talk about the fact that you you know, this supposed life that we feel we need to create. Right? Those constructs, the false self that we lead with so often, that’s what we’re leading with. And we meet another person who’s likely doing the same thing, and our relationship forms around

Don Lachance:
Too self hosted lives. Too safe. Oh, boy. That’s a good foundation.

Rob Dale:
Right? And what happens over time is more and more of your real you starts to show up, and oftentimes that’s problematic because that’s not actually what they fell in love with or were attracted to initially. Well, and then

Trefor Munn Venn:
it just reinforces, like, oh, I’m shitty. Because when I finally appeared

Jason Spears:
Yeah.

Trefor Munn Venn:
Right, they didn’t like it. So it reinforces these things, which is why probably, it’s better to lead with who you are. Right. Exactly. Like, because it’s not the bait and switch that happens later.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. A 100%.

Trefor Munn Venn:
That

Jason Spears:
But we don’t like who we are. Like Right.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
Yeah.

Rob Dale:
That’s You

Jason Spears:
know, let’s talk about that. Like Yeah. We don’t like who we are and and why.

Rob Dale:
What’s behind that?

Jason Spears:
There’s the journey that’s that’s uncomfortable. There’s the one that we’ve been so conditioned to dodge and not deal with. You know? All all of the all of the upfront stuff, like, how we show up, like, is is right there. You can you can deconstruct that. You can that can be whatever it is. But what drives that machine internally is such a guarded secret. Like, we keep that thing so safe Yeah. That it’s impossible for us to show up with Yeah.

Jason Spears:
Any form of authenticity.

Don Lachance:
Kelly, Kelly Flanagan, as we’ve had on

Trefor Munn Venn:
the show

Don Lachance:
a number of times.

Rob Dale:
Great

Don Lachance:
guy. Incredible. And in, when I read his book, he has, I don’t know if it’s his most recent book that’s out right now, but The Unhiding of Elijah Campbell. Phenomenal book. And and just that language is the language in the title is the journey that this Elijah Campbell comes to. And it’s the unhiding, the unboxing of that secret that the exactly what you’re talking about and that so as soon as you started talking about it, that’s what I thought about it. It’s time to unhide. Yeah.

Don Lachance:
It’s it’s it’s the language that, Kelly Flanagan would use around that concept.

Rob Dale:
I love

Don Lachance:
that. So it’s brilliant. Yeah.

Rob Dale:
Gentlemen, we’re we could talk, and we we’re just gonna have to have you guys back again because, one, I I think the conversation is so rich, and we could go on and on and on. But I’m conscious of our audience and our times, our limits. Lightning round. Advice to younger men. They’ve heard a lot of great things here here today, but if you were to kinda some some bullet points that you’d want to get lodged into the the the male psyche that is developing within them, what would that advice be? What would the wisdom be?

Trefor Munn Venn:
Take little risks so that instead of broing down, you show up. You can take these little risks with people and figure out who’s maybe safe and who might reinforce, oh, I see you.

Matthew Rippeyoung:
Mhmm.

Trefor Munn Venn:
If you take the little risks, you can take bigger risks. You get much more life experience. Mhmm. And so as kids, like, that like, we need to be talking to kids and boys. Yep. And, you know, men can catch up eventually. But if we’re waiting until the thirties Yeah. Right, it’s really late.

Rob Dale:
It’s a lot of work

Trefor Munn Venn:
to do. So bends the tree.

Jason Spears:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that term when you used it. It’s, for me, it’s Learn that there’s no shame in tapping out. There’s a better way forward. If you’re willing to simply feel your way forward, as opposed to try and construct and manipulate and move your way through with just an unauthentic self, and, like, maybe that’s a big word for a lot of people.

Trefor Munn Venn:
Yeah.

Jason Spears:
But it’s because we know. We really do know. We’re conditioned not to accept it. We’re conditioned not to deal with it, but we know when we’re off the rail.

Rob Dale:
Yeah.

Jason Spears:
And we’ve been living off the rail for such a long time that it’s difficult for us to think that there’s a better way forward for us. It’s too late.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. It’s not. It’s never too late.

Don Lachance:
Good. I think for me, it’s it’s a saying I’ve been using for 30 seconds now. As you’ve always said As I’ve always said, embrace vulnerability, and you’ll find strength.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. Love that. Love that. I think there’s folks listening to the show. I’m hoping this gets to, you know, in front of some, younger eyes, and and younger people. I think they’re feeling that, deep down there’s this, weight, this heaviness that this isn’t something’s not right. And I’d say that heaviness only gets worse over time.

Trefor Munn Venn:
Well, right, because we feel fear. We feel anxiety. We are we worry about things. But as boys and men, we’re taught, you know, stiff upper lip. Yeah. Be tough. Like, don’t listen to that. Just keep going.

Trefor Munn Venn:
And there’s a lot of wisdom actually in the fear and the anxiety and being able to wrestle with it, being able to sit with it. Yeah. It just it equips you so much better

Rob Dale:
Yeah.

Trefor Munn Venn:
So that you’re not having big problems later.

Rob Dale:
Right. Right. 100%. So the time to do the work is now. Yeah. Gentlemen, this has been an amazing conversation. I think we could probably talk all day long, about this. So definitely, we’ll be having you back.

Rob Dale:
I know you’re gonna be, involved at our hunt our 100th episode celebration. So having you, look forward to having you there. You can we’re gonna put all the stuff in the show notes where people can find you guys online, because we just think what you’re offering to the world is so valuable. Thanks again for tuning in, and I hope you have found this conversation helpful. There is a better way. You heard it here today. Whatever you’re going through, there is a better way. If you’ll open up, reach out for help.

Rob Dale:
You can discover the true you and live, your richest life. As always, we remind you to like, share, subscribe. Let’s get the message of living richly out there, to as many people as possible. Make sure to visit our website, living richly dot me, where you can find all the information about our 15 day life vision challenge, which is all about figuring out who you are, what you stand for, and also where you can find information about our Facebook group, the Living Rich the Nation. Such a positive, loving community, that’s is supportive of folks that are trying to do just exactly what we’re talking about here. Folks, once again, we couldn’t do this without you. Thank you for your ongoing support of the show. And until next time, get out there and live your best life.

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