Ep133 – He’s Not Clueless

E133_ He’s Not Clueless – You’re Just Not Listening

Kate: [00:00:00] What is the perceived like risk of being vulnerable? What are men scared of in that space?

Eric: Men feel very deeply actually, but they just don’t know how to articulate it. And, uh, as well, they, they struggle there. So we’re def definitely behind the eight ball on

Rob: that. And I know that she doesn’t give a rip.

Wendy: Yeah,

Rob: right. But she knows that it matters to me, and if it matters to me, then it matters to her.

Wendy: But it’s not a burden because I wanna share, you know, what you are feeling as well.

Kate: Welcome to the Living Rich Lee podcast. So glad you’re joining us today. Today we’re talking about what. Every man, I can’t say it wishes his woman understood. And today, this is kind of a a two-parter. So this is the second part where we were diving in to the female perspective, and now we’re gonna be diving into Rob, you and Eric, and we wanna hear all about your point of view and we wanna get in your brains today.

Yeah, it’s really good. Tell us all [00:01:00]

Eric: the.

Rob: I just realized it syns the way we sequence these. Yeah. We get the last word. Oh,

Eric: that’s smart. That’s smart. Lemme just start out by saying a few things. That last conversation was, was the bomb. That was really, really good. But, um, uh, we’re here obviously to try to bring men’s perspective, but there’s no illusion for the two of us that we speak for all men.

We, we speak from our experience. Yeah. And that’s where we’re gonna be sharing from today. Yeah. Uh, secondly, not everything we share about is about our current relationships. Right. Yeah. It’s what we’ve learned over time. So I wanna make that clear. Okay. And, and third, I have to say, sitting here, uh, I, I felt a little bit in the other show, but the pressure really wasn’t on us.

’cause we, it was really about understanding where you, you ladies are coming from. Um, I, I do feel some anxiety, uh, about having this conversation right now. And as I said on the last show, I think, you know, Dr. Sherry might be very busy Yeah. For the next several weeks.

Kate: Well, and I think part of it is we’re debunking today.

Yeah. You know, uh, this sort of like myth that men don’t have [00:02:00] feelings, men don’t feel they shut down, they go quiet. And so we’re gonna dive into talking and I would say unpacking all of that. But why do you think that myth still exists today? And do you think do. In any way is it damaging to men?

Eric: I think the men are clueless.

Uh, stereotype is very damaging. Mm-hmm. And is actually inaccurate. Is it, um, is it true that men struggle to show emotion and to better name what they’re feeling? A hundred percent. I think the, the social conditioning, uh, the societal expectations, uh, drilled into us since we’re a little, you know, don’t cry, don’t feel like we, it’s so hard.

Men have a lot to overcome on that front to. So we’ve overdeveloped on sometimes the logic side why it feels sometimes like we’re vulcans and can approach things without this deep feeling around it. Um, men feel very deeply actually, but they just don’t know how to articulate it. And as well, they, they struggle there.

So we’re def definitely behind the eight ball on [00:03:00] that. But I’d like to say just because we see it or feel it differently, different is not deficient. Different isn’t weird, different isn’t clueless. Different is just. Different. And when we, we use and, and propagate the men are clueless kind of thing around this stuff.

All we do is reinforce the stereotype, creating an even greater hurdle for men to overcome and in many ways, providing them something to hide behind. Mm.

Rob: But we, we, but all of media, they can certainly Hollywood, you see that myth. Uh, being in hand, right? It’s, it, it’s always there. The, the clueless guy usually, you know, kind of just the, the simple stupid guy.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then the gorgeous woman that he’s with, and it’s all of, we see it all through Hollywood, is this myth that guys don’t get emotions. They don’t, that’s the whole running joke. So I think the reason why so many people believe it is because of course they get their truth from social media and from and from movies and TV shows.

You mean TikTok is not the bomb, right? I get it. But that’s it. [00:04:00] It is often perpetuated there.

Eric: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Kate: I agree. And I think for men, and you correct me if I’m wrong, but I think respect. Oh, we will. I know I had somehow, I had no

Rob: doubt the

Kate: whole point.

Rob: We have permission to correct you and

All: Rob made, made it clear we get the final word

Kate: and that’s a wrap.

All: And I’m calling Dr. Sherry,

Kate: but I, I think respect is a big word for men. It’s, and I, I’d love to understand your lens, like what does that look like in a relationship? How does that show up for you? What does it even mean for you?

Eric: You wanna go first?

Rob: Well, my answer was gonna be, I think what everything Eric just said is right on.

Eric: Well, let, let’s, let’s be clear, like, so, uh, I think this gets misunderstood. Respect for men is, uh, like fuel. Mm-hmm. It is like oxygen. Yeah. And it’s. Absence makes us shrink, uh, in a big way. But respect isn’t, uh, about us being like these, needing to be treated like these fragile kings and need our egos to be bowed to.

It’s not [00:05:00] that kind of respect. I think sometimes when, uh, when women maybe hear the word respect, maybe they think it’s this extreme thing. Um, I wrote this down. I’m gonna read some of it because I, I wanna get it right. But I was really, it’s it’s way simpler and way deeper for me anyway, respects look.

Respect, looks like being seen as competent, capable, and good-hearted. Even when I’m struggling, being trusted, not micromanaged, second guessed or prejudged being spoken to like a partner, not a project that’s not in our current relationship, but in past relationships. Mm-hmm. I was a project to be fixed. Um, being appreciated for the things I do quietly and not just the big.

Heroic stuff that, that to me is, uh, what it means to be respected. I, I don’t what you

Rob: We’re fine. Yeah. And, you know, and, and to our listeners, we often, as we prepare for these episodes, we, we do write out some notes and we get things written and, and so that’s why I’m joking when I say. When Eric asked if I wanted to go first, I literally had seen what he wrote and thought.

Yeah, I totally, I, I really, [00:06:00] pretty much what Eric says, I don’t think he’s writing just for himself, thinking most men would say that. Yeah. If I was to add to it, I think respect is understanding the intention behind the action. Mm-hmm. Uh, and that, uh, I may get it wrong. I may not do the, I may not do it exactly the way it should be done, whatever the case is.

Uh, but recognize that when I’m doing something, my intention is to, uh, to do good and to, to show Wendy that I love her or care. Um, and, and to. Respect for me is when you celebrate the intention more than the action.

Eric: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And we talked about on the last show, right, where, uh, I think you used the language, Wendy, you know, women are, are lean more towards the emotional side of things.

Men lean more towards action and deeds and getting shit done and, and, um, we are wired. So deeply. I think we all are, I think everyone struggles with performance mentality to some degree, but for men, our very identity is based in it. Mm-hmm. It’s what we’re told. The measure of a man [00:07:00] is how he performs.

Yeah. Uh, performs in business, performs at home, performs in the bedroom even like, there’s this whole notion that if you are not rocking it, you’re a complete failure. Uh, and so when a woman speaks to a man in a way that makes him feel like she believes in him, uh, and that she supports him not exclusively one way, but supports him and sees the effort, and recognizes the effort, um, that is like oxygen to a man.

Kate: So I’m curious ’cause I, I understand that, but what, what’s the flip then? Like, what happens when you’re not getting that level of respect? How like. Walk me because I get this piece. Yeah. But how does it show up for you when you’re maybe that, that it feels disrespectful or there’s that lack of respect?

Eric: I, I think for me, like if I, I sense that that is not happening Yeah.

Or that my efforts aren’t being recognized, uh, again, that that’s my work to do. I, so it’s, uh. I tell people all the time, you are your own primary caregiver. That is your, it’s ultimately every person’s [00:08:00] responsibility to make sure their needs are taken care of. Mm-hmm. Right? Doesn’t mean I’m, I can meet all my own needs, but it’s my responsibility to ask for what I need.

And so I know that my work continues to be, to work on my performance mentality and understand that my worth isn’t completely tied to what I achieve. And, uh, just as. Re the, the last few months have been, um, difficult personally for me because in, in I’m whole other layer of this has just been exposed for me and we’ve talked about it.

Mm-hmm. Talked about it and, um, uh, so I know that’s my work to do, but what, when I, when I sense that my efforts aren’t being. Recognized or that my effort’s not being seen, uh, or that I’m failing the grade, that’s where, um, for me mm-hmm. I start to shrink back. I start to shut down. I start to distance. Uh, because the fear is if, if I’m already failing, uh, uh, anything else I do is probably gonna make this worse.

Mm-hmm. And I think when you talked about, uh, seeing the intent and Right. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I think that is, it was spot [00:09:00] on because. Even in the shrinking, um, or the, the distancing or the going quiet that has, that is most of the time, at least for me, not actually distancing, this is me protecting you from more of my shit anymore of my mistakes.

And so I’d rather go this way. You’re right, than perhaps. Overstep and make things think that matters even

Kate: next. And what, and what’s interesting is that pull away, right? For the other person, like we will flip it a little bit for the, the female perspective is when you pull away, it’s this like,

All: yeah.

Kate: It’s like, oh, he is disconnecting, why is he disconnecting?

What did I do? I did something wrong. He’s not interested. Like, and that’s where the female brain goes on. So it’s interesting. And we

Wendy: can take it very personally. Very personally. Yeah.

Right.

Kate: Where it becomes

Wendy: then more like of a physical or like, oh, you know, is he, he’s not attracted to me anymore.

Kate: Now. I’m so glad you said that.

’cause that’s a huge part of it. Sometimes you’re like, he he is not interested in me anymore. He is. He’s not physically attracted to me. Mm-hmm. Who is he physically attracted? And our [00:10:00] brains wander. But

Rob: I do think, and I, to go back to that, there’s a distinction between men who have done the healthy work and, and those who haven’t.

Because those who haven’t, when they’re not respected, uh, you made the comment last, uh, uh, uh, episode about how men will then, if they’re not getting that acknowledgement, they are, they’ll, they’ll do it at work, right? Mm-hmm. They, they need the, they need that to feel like, okay, I’m good at something. So they’ll dive in more, uh, intentionally work, or worse, they’ll

Eric: seek it

Rob: in other relationship, or they’ll seek it in other relationships they’ll see and, and may not even be set.

Often not sexual. It’s, they’re looking for that respect, that sense of acknowledgement of who they are, uh, in that moment again, when they’re unhealthy. When they’re healthy, they recognize that that can’t come from someone else anyway.

Eric: Yeah.

Rob: And that they need to do that internal work for themselves. Yeah.

Kate: Yeah. So what are some other examples? And if you’re feeling like. You’re not providing, you’re not performing. ’cause clearly this is something that men, you know, are feeling that they [00:11:00] need to deliver on what happens. You know, you gave a great example there, but what else happens for you when you feel like you’re falling short?

Eric: Well, again, it’s that, uh, like

Kate: how does it show up?

Eric: It it, well, it shows up in, uh, for me, it shows up in, uh, uh, judging myself very harsh. I, I have give pretty still to this day. Um, my inner critic is still pretty strong. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I thought I had fired. I mean, he just keeps showing up for work every day.

Um, uh, so that’s continues to be a challenge for me. I’ve made lots of progress, but recently I made a comment in a conversation with Sherry and she knows me. Pretty well. I’ve been working together with her, I’ve been working with her since 2016, so almost 10 years. Um, and I made the statement that, um, I really thought I was further down the road on this and she paused ’cause she knows how hard I can be on myself.

She goes, oh, that sounded pretty critical. And I said, actually, I don’t think it’s critical. I think it’s, I’m just observing. I’m just recognizing that there’s still a lot of work to be done. Um. So what happens is if [00:12:00] I feel like I’m failing and it, it’s interesting, we talked about it on the show, it’s like earlier on the last episode mm-hmm.

That it, sometimes it feels like men don’t care. They do care. They just don’t necessarily care about the same things the same way. Yeah. Fair. Yeah. Yeah. Um, when it comes to this piece here, like. If we feel like we’re failing the people that matter most to us, um, that is like epic. Yeah. Like it’s, it’s, it’s like that knocks the wind out of us completely.

Right? So if, if we feel like we’re failing or we feel like we’re not making the grade, and you’re in a relationship where there’s not good communication, um, and you’re feeling disrespected, you’re not appreciated, your effort’s not being seen. Uh, again, I, I, I. I’m very careful, like that word respect is loaded for so many people.

Mm-hmm. It’s not the fragile king who needs to be like, yeah, no, no. It’s just that notion of see me like being seen, being heard, being recognized for the effort that’s being put in. If we don’t feel that at home and we feel like. Every like that we’re making a ton of missteps or a lot of [00:13:00] missteps or regular missteps, we are gonna double down.

Likely the first place that happens is we, we just double down at work. Um, and we wonder why guys often do that and spend longer times at more time at the ’cause, at least at the work side. Most guys can feel like they move the needle, right. Uh, and then at home they feel like I’m not moving the needle or I’m moving it in the wrong direction.

Right? I’m making mistakes. Mm-hmm. So I think that’s part of the

Rob: challenge. Yeah. I think, I think it is. And, uh, for me, I go quiet for sure. I’m, I’m more of that dis I will distance and, and, and, uh, often shut down, uh, because, well, what’s the point? I think the flip side of that, and perhaps the easiest way to answer how does it show up when I’m not, is the opposite of how it shows up.

When I am. And when I am, I’m more connected, I become more engaged. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think, uh, I know that, and again, in our relationship, because Wendy does do this well, uh, in fact it’s interesting because I’m not used to having a partner who shows and demonstrates. That respect, often I will get uncomfortable when [00:14:00] she is talking to me.

Mm-hmm hmm. And sharing and being like really just celebrating me. It’s weird to me. And so then I kind of, I I’m, I have to process that. Hmm. But I will say, even though I get kind of, well, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But. I still internally you feel bigger, you feel, you feel stronger. Mm. You feel connected. You, you.

Right. And so there’s a lot more humor. I think there’s a lot more laughter in a relationship when men feel, uh, that they’re being respected because they can let go. Mm-hmm. And they can just be kind of silly and honest. And all of those things. Yeah. So I think there’s, how it shows up is it can be pretty powerful.

Eric: Yeah. And I think for guys, and, and this may be true, again, I, I, I’m only speaking of my experience, but I think it’s, it’s true of the many guys that I’ve spoken to when we feel like we’re falling short, shame hits really fast. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because. Um, again, our, the, the definition of our worth is often wrapped up in our performance, our ability to deliver.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, and to get shit done. So if we feel like that, that’s not landing. [00:15:00] Um, and most men, uh, I think suffer in silence a lot of the time because admitting struggle. Uh, so, so I’m struggling and I’m failing for guys is synonymous.

Kate: Yeah.

Eric: So, um, because struggle’s not okay. Um, I had a client, uh, just this week and he’s been on the leadership side, really challenged as of late.

I mean, he’s having to lead the organiz, this large organization. He’s a significant leader, upper echelons, and they’re doing a major reorg, which means. A lot of good people that are gonna get laid off and he’s in charge of those decisions and a lot of people that he likes, and he’s feeling the pressure and he was sharing that with me and, um, was a, it was so hard for him.

And here’s a guy that we have had trusted conversations for two, three years, and I know he feel, he knows it’s a safe space, but even in that space, he was struggling and he, I could see the shame land on him that he, he was talking about this other leader who, you know, they. For them, it’s no big deal. They just let people [00:16:00] go and it’s not a problem.

And here’s, I’m feeling this, like I’m feeling for them. I’m feeling for their family. He said, and you could feel the weight just on him. And I looked at him, I said, you get that? That’s not a sign of weakness. That’s a sign of your genius.

Rob: Mm-hmm.

Eric: Because you care so deeply. That’s why you’re such a power leader.

Powerful leader, but or effective leader. But the the thing is, for him, struggle equals failure. And I think for guys, um, we, we equate the two.

Kate: Well, it’s interesting ’cause I think I, I talked on our first date actually about alpha, beta and men. And I read this book and it’s a horribly written book and I can’t read the name of it night.

I’m not a big reader, as you guys know, but I did. Well, we won’t

Rob: promote a

Kate: horribly, I know, but the, the concept in it was just so blatant. It’s a bit like, like men are from Mars, women are from Venus, but the concept is like there’s alpha and beta energy. So al like an alpha male is an alpha male picture of beta male.

At the other spectrum, like if you were gonna like super emotional, not like athletic, not per whatever, [00:17:00] like the typical as you would stereotype mm-hmm. But there’s, you know, a lot of women are still seeking an alpha male. They often want to feel mm-hmm. Protected and safe and, and that’s typically what we call an alpha male.

It’s alpha male. I’m gonna protect you like I did. You move for those? You can’t, I just flex.

Rob: You’re flexing. You’re flexing. That was an impressive flex.

Kate: Thanks. I’m channeling my inner. I’m kidding. Um, but anyway, so we, we, we seek out alpha. Yeah. But what’s interesting, the way the book talked about it was that you women often seek out male like alpha energy for in specific moments, but they also need a lot of.

Beta moments, like those moments where we wanna feel heard. Mm-hmm. And we want compassion. We don’t want like alpha energy in the room, like, you know, the testosterone driven energy. We crave both. And what’s interesting is every woman has a different think of alpha on the left. Beta on the right. You’re somewhere in that scale is what works for you and what you need in a [00:18:00] relationship.

And it’s a really great visual to think of beta on a scale to alpha and where do you sit and what you need. And it can and it and it can change based on where you’re at. But I think my whole point there was that I think a lot of women, I think subconsciously a lot, and we don’t talk about it, we are still seeking.

Provider. We are still seek and not, like, I’m not saying we’re the expecta, like, you know me, I’m fiercely independent and I’m gonna make my own money. Like I’m, I’m great, but there is something in me that still wants to be safe and, and I think safe and protected.

Rob: Yeah. And I, and I think guys want to be both.

Kate: Yeah.

Rob: Right. I like, I I this notion that guys don’t want to be the care, like be, be able to connect emotionally. Uh, I, I don’t know a lot of guys that, that I, there are some. But I don’t know a lot of guys that would just be, I just want to be the alpha male. They, I think they genuinely want the boast both.

Uh, I will say, I started at the beginning about the myth of Hollywood. One of the things we do see in Hollywood now is that the [00:19:00] strong kind of male character, they now have an emotional side. Mm-hmm. Because. More. Mm-hmm. Men and women are, are communicating that that is the desire is to find that, I think for guys sometimes in a relationship we talked about last week about mind reading.

Yeah. It, it’s difficult in the moment to know, am I showing up here now as provider protector or as, as, as connector, whatever language word we’d use there. How do I show up in this moment to best serve the person I care about?

Kate: Yeah.

Eric: Yeah. And, and I would say on the, you know, the, the dealing with emotion, again, men are very emotional beings.

And I think that’s what people really need to understand is that men feel a lot of emotions. Um, they feel the full range. They just don’t know how to name them. Yeah,

All: yeah.

Eric: Uh, necessarily. Um, they’re, they’re confused about what to do with them. Because again, programmed from, from basically little kids to, to not feel and just rub some dirt on it and yeah.

Pick [00:20:00] yourself up and keep going. And, and so now all of a sudden we reach adulthood and we understand, yeah, well that doesn’t really work. But we haven’t had a lot of training. We haven’t had a lot of practice. And I would say to the guys listening to say, that’s not an excuse. Hmm. Um. Right. It’s a skill.

That you can learn. It’s like going to the gym. Mm-hmm. It’s doing the reps. Um, but I will say that there’s a lot of fear and hesitation there. Uh, ’cause I can see it. Every single dude that I talk to about the foundry and I talk about men who have been successful in business and in life, but somehow feel there’s part of their gears not working, life’s not showing up the way they want.

When I start to talk about this stuff, they all resonate. Like they all resonate. But then I can also see. This like, oh yeah, there’s this sense of, oh yeah. And then there’s, oh, you could see almost the anxiety in it because it’s like, I don’t know how to do that, or I don’t know how to do that. Well tie that with the, our worth is tied to performance.

Yeah. And the fear that is associated with [00:21:00] going there is, is a thing. It’s a real thing for us. ’cause we’re almost like, if I can’t do it right. Mm-hmm. Or I’m gonna get it wrong.

Kate: Yeah.

Eric: Um, that’s a, that’s a big mental Yeah. That guys have to overcome.

Kate: Okay.

Eric: So, but they can’t overcome it

Kate: to helper kind of female listeners, I think a little bit.

Can you guys share maybe an example of when you, like a gesture of appreciation came your way? Something that you were like, oh, that really meant. The world to me. ’cause I think it’ll help our, like female listeners understand what hit home. Yeah. At least a few examples.

Rob: I mean, for me, I, I don’t even know if it’s a single gesture.

It happens, happens often. Uh, is, um, how Wendy will take interest when I’m geeking out on something. I wanna show her something, oh, I think this is really cool. Or look at this, look at what cha can do, or, you know, or, or check out this, watch this trailer of this show that looks really cool. And I know that she doesn’t give a rip.

Kate: Yeah.

Rob: Right. But she knows that it matters to me, and if it matters to me, then it [00:22:00] matters to her. Mm. And she’ll take that time, or I’ll talk about, uh, you know, the, uh, you know, half my house is wired with Google Home and look, I can see half your house. Yeah, dude, the toilet seat was talking to me

Eric: before the show started.

Rob: Right. And, and I’ll show her. Look, I could change. I, I’m setting up a vacation schedule for all. I hope you don’t have a camera in the bathroom. No, no, no. But, but I do have, when we go away on holidays, I have different lights come on at different times that looks. The house pipe. Toilet goes up. Toilet goes down.

Right. So she doesn’t mock me like some people do. Well, she does mock me. I don’t, but she also takes interest in it. Oh. How does that work? All lots. I love that. And I know she doesn’t care and we’re playing a game. Yeah. Uh, but it matters to me and so it matters to her. Games

Kate: are fun,

Rob: they’re

Kate: games are fun.

Eric: Yeah, I think, I think just the recognition of effort, that gesture sometimes, I mean, you do and you do this all the time, um, uh, and not all the time, but you do it frequently enough that like, I [00:23:00] feel like my efforts are being recognized. Um, and that you’re grateful for them. I think it’s, they don’t have to be grand gestures often, it’s just that.

You know, the touch on the side of the arm and that look that just says thank you. Right. Um, and, uh, the, the, you feel seen, you feel seen, you feel like you’re making mm-hmm. You’re, you’re, you’re showing up and maybe not showing up perfectly, but that you’re showing up. Those things go a long way.

Kate: Well, and I think that comes back to under the communication in your relationship and you’re your love languages, right?

So I think what, like words of affirmation, if those matter for you communicating to your partner what. Matters and how you want to receive. Right. And you need to be able to know what that is. Yeah. Because if I bought you like, I don’t know, some Google thing that puts the toilet seat down, I don’t think you’d be really

Eric: happy.

I geek out for a moment, but it wouldn’t have the

Kate: I was gonna say is, does Eric geek out on

Eric: stuff? Like

Kate: Oh yeah. It’s just very different.

Eric: Stuff there. I geek out mostly on sci-fi Yeah. And fantasy stuff.

Kate: Yeah. Like when there’s a new sci-fi and he is like, he is [00:24:00] so gi it’s like, I’m

Eric: like a little kid.

Kate: Yeah.

Eric: I am.

Rob: A new Star Wars movie comes out. Oh my gosh. And Eric’s gonna tell you where it fits in the cannon of Star Wars. Oh my God. And why this light saber is this color. And,

Kate: and he explains everything. And I’m like, I, you lost. Me as a star.

Rob: You lost

Eric: me 20 minutes ago. Yeah, you lost

Kate: me

Eric: at Star. That goes, that goes back.

I was, I was, uh, 1977, so I was six years old, uh, when my parents took us to see Star Wars when it first came out in 1977. And, uh, my dad had a big station wagon at the time. Um, and. We pull into the drive-in theater that’s no longer there in Gloucester, in East End City. Um, and I, I still remember we were in our pajamas, my brother and I, who was two years older than me, I still remember playing on the swings.

Right. ’cause it was, you know how you’d,

Rob: yeah.

Eric: You would be waiting for the sun to come down enough to start the movie. So we’d played, and then dad had set us up on the roof with a, uh, of the station wagon with a, a sleeping bag and pillows. So we were lying there watching the movie. Oh,

Kate: so fun.

Eric: Um, and [00:25:00] since then I’ve been completely hooked.

Oh yeah. So, yeah. So I totally geek out on, on sci-fi. For that reason. Yeah, you do. Yeah. Yeah.

Kate: It’s fantastic. I love it. Um, okay. I’m gonna flip it a little bit instead of like geeking out and talking a lot, oftentimes. I shouldn’t say often at times. Thank you Sherry. Um, men go quiet and it is a bit of a mystery to us women sometimes understanding what’s behind the quiet and I can imagine is different for, you know, I don’t wanna lump all men into one category, but what is that for you?

When you go quiet, what is happening?

Eric: So I would say that, um, for me, um, I can only speak for myself, but I, I think some men will resonate with this. Silence is not distancing for us. Silence is our attempt. We don’t go silent or withdraw because we don’t care. It’s actually the very opposite of that. We often go silent ’cause we’re trying to understand what’s going on for us.

Mm-hmm. It’s, uh, almost like a regulation thing. Like we’re just trying to figure it out. [00:26:00] Remember, we’re not as good at deciphering the feelings that are going on inside of us. The only feelings we’re allowed to have, uh, according to society, is I can be chill and I can rage. Mm, anything else is suspect. Uh, and I might get called a pussy weak.

I might get called all kinds of names and don’t get me started on the pussy thing. I think it’s the, the worst analogy for weakness. It’s the most, the strongest anyway. Um. It gives birth, right? Anyway. Um, so that’s a whole misnomer, but we’re only allowed to feel a very limited range of emotions publicly, but we still have this storm of emotion happening internally.

So when we withdraw, go quiet, at least when I do. It is because I’m overwhelmed in that moment. Mm-hmm. And I would say I’ve done a fair amount of work. Um, uh, I, I regularly will use things like a feelings wheel to get present to what is going on under the hood. But even with all that work, there’re just times where if it’s been a hard week and I’m tired and I’m stressed and all of a sudden it’s like I don’t have the [00:27:00] same access to those tools.

So when I withdraw, it’s because I’m trying to protect you from saying the wrong thing. Doing the wrong thing until I kind of can figure it out. Mm-hmm. Figure out the way forward. So it’s, it’s, I get that it can send a signal and I know I’ve had to, even recently, I’ve talked about this to say to you. I know, babe.

I haven’t been showing up the same way. I’ve been kind of distant. Here’s what’s going on for me right now. Uh, ’cause I know that’s the signal when you’re, ’cause when I show up, I show up. You, I’m hard to miss. Um, I’m a big personality and lots of energy and when that’s not part of the equation, I can be very Well

Kate: because you’re disco for you.

Well because you’re chatty and very connected. Yeah. And so when you’re not chatty and connected

Eric: Yeah.

Kate: Yeah, my head will spiral on what is going on. Mm-hmm. Why, like, and we touched on this a bit earlier, but why are you so distant?

Eric: Yeah.

Kate: What did I do? Yeah. Because it’s all about me,

Eric: right? So I would say like, yeah,

Kate: that’s my story.

Eric: Yeah. I think if there’s one thing I [00:28:00] would uh, say to like, if I was to say something to women, I’m careful to say that, but um, about understanding your man is that don’t. Just don’t equate distance or silence with distance. It’s, yeah, it, it’s great. This isn’t, um. For, for us, it’s not that it’s wiring, it’s how we self-regulate is we need to pull back, evaluate.

Mm-hmm. Remember, we will, we will try to reason our way forward more than we feel our way forward. So if, if, if we’re overwhelmed with feelings, then our reasoning is compromised and now we’re dis like, we’re. It’s like we’re walking on the ground. Yeah. But it’s like jello and so it doesn’t feel solid under our feet.

And we don’t wanna say something outta turn. We don’t want to do the wrong thing. We don’t wanna hurt you. Yeah. We don’t wanna put additional pressure on you. And we also don’t wanna take a step that then is the wrong one. And now. Add to what we’re feeling. We just failed, remember? Yeah. Yeah. I just,

Rob: well, and I, and I think there’s also, it’s complicated.

Eric: It’s

Rob: complicated. Men are

Eric: complicated.

Rob: Yeah. We’re [00:29:00] more complicated than we had thought. We were really simple. Um,

Eric: maybe I’m just complicated,

Rob: maybe. Oh no, because I rob, Rob.

Eric: Fuck you.

Rob: Thank you. I, ’cause I resonate with that and I, I would agree. Uh, I, I, I don’t think you’re just speaking for yourself. I think most men do that silence is the processing that’s happening and they’re trying to figure out what’s going on.

Um, and, and I know that’s the case for me. In other situations, the silence is me moving into protector mode. Mm. And, uh, so if I am, uh, and, and for a lot of men, if. Let’s say something is going wrong at work and they’re concerned or they’re frustrated or whatever, they come home and they’re processing all of that and they don’t want to burden their, their significant other Yeah.

With what’s going on, because then they don’t want them worrying, well, are you gonna lose your job? Or is what’s gonna happen? And that’s what you’re interesting. And so it’s, it’s actually a caring mechanism, a a because you care about, uh, your significant [00:30:00] other. Mm. That you’re then often not. Sharing what’s going on.

Again, not because you’re pulling back, but because you’re protecting now, that’s where communication needs to come in to be able, able to say that’s not a healthy

Wendy: way. Yeah. And we’ve had conversations where like, we pick up on it, right? Like women are like radar sometimes or,

Rob: and we’re like, just leave us alone.

Wendy: Right? But there have been times where you’ve had stuff going on and you’re, you’re quiet and I’m taking it as you know. You know, I know we’re fine, but like, what’s wrong? Like, you know, you’re quiet and I’ve got all of this stuff going on. You know, that I’m dealing with. And right away you’re like, well, I don’t wanna burden you with.

Eric: Mm-hmm.

Wendy: And in my mind I’m like, but it’s not a burden because I wanna share, you know, what you are feeling as well.

Eric: But that’s, and I love hearing that, ’cause I think it’s so important for us to remember that. But in the moment, again, I, I was talking to a guy, um, uh, a leader that I just met recently. Uh, we were talking about the [00:31:00] foundry and it’s interesting as soon as I introduced that subject, um, one-to-one, how guys go from tough bravado to they just open right up.

Guys are actually, the vast majority of men are just looking for a place that feels safe. Um, and it’s not that they don’t necessarily feel safe at home, it’s the burden piece. Uh, I’m supposed to be the protector provider. Um, I also get there are, there’s an immature version of men that are looking for another mom to take care of them.

Yes. And silence is brooding, pouting. Mm-hmm. Passive aggressive. Yeah. There’s that side of it. Uh, but a more advanced version of is what we’re talking, or not advanced, but a different version of it is where you’re trying to process. But this guy, as we’re talking, you know, he said, yeah, I, I just finally started.

Therapy this year. He says, I, I just felt the need to do it. So I was celebrating that all day long. I said, I think it’s great. I think it takes great courage. People think that’s weak, but it’s the opposite of that because a weak person won’t seek out help. A strong person seeks out help. Right. That takes fucking courage to do what you did.

And then he told me, he says, well, I’ve been going [00:32:00] since, uh oh anyway, for months. He goes, I’ve been going, but I, I, my wife doesn’t even know. Yeah. And again, part of that is not wanting. Now do I think that’s healthy? No. Ultimately, I think it’d be better if his wife knew he was getting help, right. Uh, and right, because it’s like, I can imagine once she finds out, that’s gonna be difficult.

Why didn’t you tell me when I don’t know what the dynamic of their relationship is. But there’s something there where he feels, I, I don’t want to burden her. I don’t want her to know I’m doing this on my own. That’s where guys go to is we want to figure it out and solve it.

Kate: Yeah.

Eric: For ourselves.

Kate: Yeah. And I, I will say, I do think there are women who are like, keep it to yourself.

I don’t wanna know. Right. I think those women exist too. That true. I think around this table, that’s not how we are.

Eric: Yeah.

Kate: I wanna know everything. Yeah. I actually, I actually wanna know far too much Eric’s, how,

Rob: how your session go with Sherry.

Kate: What did

Rob: you talk about?

Eric: Did you talk about me? No, she Did you talk about me?

Kate: What? What’d you say? Did you say No, that never happened? No.

Eric: I, we

Kate: always,

Eric: I told her I was a bitch, didn’t you? [00:33:00] So we all, for our listeners, like, so we all work with Sherry. She’s our, uh, she’s our coach. She’s our like therapist. Yeah. Um, and we all. We each see her.

Wendy: Yeah. We don’t see her together.

Eric: We don’t see her together.

But I just, sometimes we joke around about what it must like be like to be her, to hear all these stories that incur to connected from different perspectives. Right. It’s fascinating about, it must

Rob: be like hearing the same story from different perspectives. Yeah. Right, right. And not. Being able to say, oh,

Eric: that’s interesting.

Anything That’s interesting because, so yeah, I heard that from, yeah. Sits back in your

Wendy: chair.

Kate: Uhhuh. Well, all rat is in.

Eric: Exactly.

Kate: Uh, exactly. Okay. We talked about silence.

Eric: Mm.

Kate: And how that can get misconstrued. What about some, some other feelings that go back to your feelings wheel that women maybe miss or they misread from their partner?

Eric: Wow. Wow. That’s a great question. Other. Emotions that we feel and express or feel,

Kate: you feel like you’ve expressed that we, we miss it [00:34:00] somehow. We misread it. We’re clueless. We’re clueless. We don’t, we don’t, or we’re misinterpreting it.

Rob: When I, it’s interesting now, and maybe this is how the question is meant.

When I, when I saw this question in advance, I immediately went to what are the things that I do that demonstrate. Feelings that are maybe missed. Yeah. Okay. That you don’t, you don’t see the feeling in the action.

Kate: Yeah.

Rob: And, and, and I don’t think this is the case. I think Wendy will recognize this. Um, certainly most of the time.

Maybe not all the time. I don’t know. I don’t keep a scorecard or track it. Uh, yes, you do, to be perfectly. I don’t, but, uh, you know, she does.

All: Yeah, she does. She, she just, oh, I whispered across the table. She went. I do. Oh, I know, I’ve seen, sorry. I’ve seen the scorecard. I called you. I’m failing that

Wendy: be a healthy marriage.

Rob: Um, who does that? But I, I’ll do things like, uh, give her the last bite of, of something You don’t, A meal. Not always. [00:35:00] I will, uh, you know, there’s, there’s one cold Coke zero in the fridge. Oh, she’s getting the Coke zero. But that’s, I’m not gonna, I’m not even gonna mess with that. I know. No,

well

Eric: that’s, that’s probably survival

right

Rob: there.

But I think it’s the small gestures. So much of, there are so many little things that we do. Yeah. That, that guys will do. So I had a stressful day the other day, and I knew she was stressed. I knew there was a lot on her plate and she was dealing with all this stuff, and, um, I wasn’t feeling good. I was, uh, struggling with it a little bit, but I, but I ha I had moved some client meetings because I wasn’t feeling good.

Yeah. And I knew I just couldn’t sit in front of my computer. So one minute I thought, you know what, I know what she’ll love is if. The, we’re we’re recording this, uh, early before Christmas, but I thought I’ll put up the Christmas tree so she’ll have the tree up and she can start to decorate and everyth like that.

I know that all over. It’s a small gesture. Yeah. Yeah. But it, again, there was a lot of feeling and emotion of behind doing that small gesture. She does pick up. She knew that’s what I was doing. Yeah. By making that and, you [00:36:00] know, and articulated that I that be communicated that, but I think it’s those small gestures that a lot of times women think, well, you’re just doing something and I’m No, no.

There’s a lot of feeling being behind, behind those, behind, behind

Eric: that. I think that’s so well said. Men show feelings, uh, a lot of feelings through their actions, through practical things like send that funny text, clean the kitchen, take the garbage out. We may not mow the

Rob: lawn.

Eric: Mow the lawn,

Rob: Steve.

Alright. I think we’re giving him too much anyway. He’s getting carried away back there.

Eric: Uh, but I think it’s important to recognize that those actions are emotions translated into doing. Yeah. Again, we don’t have the same emotional range unless a guy has, is working on that. Um, and I, I do believe a hundred percent, uh, I think men do hide behind while we’re just not good at feelings.

You’re right. We’re not. ’cause we’re, again, the programming, it’s not modeled well. It’s often made fun of. [00:37:00] Uh, for a man to admit vulnerability or be vulnerable is very, very, it’s difficult for most people. I don’t care what side of the equation you’re on. Yeah. Uh, but for men, that’s even more charged. Um. So, uh, but one of the ways we know how to express it is those little things, but because they’re practical, because they’re

Kate: mm-hmm.

Eric: Um, they’re just day-to-day things. I think the emotion in that’s behind, that’s driving them is it just gets missed. It just, it can get missed.

Kate: Yeah. And I’ll, I will own, I think sometimes as women, we, we don’t. Give you the space sometimes to do that. Like, I’ll give a practical example of I just, I wanted to vacuum ’cause Loki’s over and my allergies are on fire, and so I sang in a vacuum, but I wasn’t.

I wasn’t feeling well, I think, I can’t remember what the context was. Anyways, Eric had said I’ll vacuum, but he was doing something else. And I like just stubborn Kate, I’m just gonna vacuum. So I start to go do, and he’s like, can you just let me vacuum kids it? [00:38:00] And I’m like, it’s fine. Like I’ve totally got it.

And he like, oh my God. And it’s like. And I can see it where he’s trying to help and I am even like, like not meaning to. Yeah. But I just, I get in my own way sometimes of even allowing that space.

Eric: Yeah. And, and fast forward that, I mean, it didn’t develop into that for us, but

Kate: no,

Eric: fast forward where that’s happening all the time.

Yeah. Where the man is trying to show up and, and. Even if it appears inept, even if he’s folding the towels the wrong way, even if he’s not putting the diaper on the way you would do it. Yeah. Again, if there’s a way you want it done, I think communicating that is tremendously helpful. We won’t necessarily, like if we, it’s not something we’re used to doing.

We don’t know what preferences you have by default. So, uh, but, but even if the effort is made and it doesn’t quite meet. The, the great. It’s recognizing that behind that there’s the

Wendy: intention. Yeah.

Eric: The intention is to try, I, I may not be able to demonstrate the emotion of it the way you would, but this is me trying to [00:39:00] throw that your way.

This is how, this is what I know. I’m a doer. Yeah. So this is what I know. Yeah.

Kate: So when that results in like. An argument, let’s say, how, like how do you resolve that sort of argument where one person wants space and one person wants to talk?

Eric: Mm. That’s

Kate: because oftentimes, like, it’s not that way in our relation, but a lot of times women wanna talk it out and men don’t, they want a bit of space.

Eric: Mm-hmm. I’d say like, name the difference instead of fighting it. Like, yeah. If, uh, just like we were talking about at the last episode, how you and I. Uh, we don’t do it all the time, but there we have used the Brene Brown, you know, yeah. I’m at 10% or I’m at 20% or whatever. Uh, or hey, I’m at 80%, so I’ve got you.

Right. Uh, that’s communicating sort of in the moment what we need from each other. Um, I think it’s the same with something that name the difference. Yeah. So the other person may be ready to talk it out and one, uh, you know, the other part of the couple is saying, I, I need some space. Like, um, you and I have.

A standing [00:40:00] agreement that we can put a pin in it. And by putting a pin in it is not it. What we’re saying is this is not the right moment. Uh, one of us needs time or space. Yeah. Or I’m tired or I’m not clear on what I think right now, but putting a pin in it isn’t parking the conversation forever. It’s, can we revisit this tomorrow?

Can we visit this later? Um, I, I think that I’m a verbal processor by nature, so, uh, I remember Jim, my. My mentor that I’ve mentioned several times who’s been on the show, I remember him saying to me years ago, he saying, you know Eric, it’s like, you don’t really need me on the call. I said, what do you mean, Jim?

He says, you just talk it out and you figure it out as you’re talking out. And he’s like, I feel like I don’t do a lot, and you just find your way. And I’m like, oh, you do so much. He goes, you actually kind of find your way forward. So I process that way. Now that works for me in some cases. Those thoughts are unfiltered.

They’re not mature. They’re like, top of mind. What I’m feeling, thinking, or, and if anybody, and if you were to, I, I, I’m [00:41:00] recognizing like if, if there are times, if I’m doing that, that’s a lot for you to process because you don’t know what. Part of that is true, or whether that’s me just trying to think it through verbally.

So understand your partner. Yeah. Like their communication style, what they need. But the easiest thing is simply to ask the question. Right? Yeah. And I, I’ll take what, what do you need right now? I’ll take,

Wendy: I’ll take more words and over communication. Yeah. Yeah. And you’re like that too, like, and you’ll often say like, I’m just talking through things out.

I’m just, you know. Um. Processing or I’m just, I’m just talking at what’s in my head right now and it might not make sense. But you do that sometimes too.

Rob: Yeah. Well, I, I’ll do both. ’cause I often will take some time where I’m thinking about, I need that space to think. And then, yes, you’re right. I will often, you are my trusted person to talk out now how I’m feeling.

Sometimes I talk it out and it’s good. I don’t need to do anything else with it. Um, I think what, and, and so there is a, a mix of both. Asking in the moment, what [00:42:00] do you need from me?

All: Yeah.

Rob: Is good. Um, it, the best, first kind of best practice is to set that understanding of how you’re going to handle those moments when you’re not in those moments.

And I think that’s something that many couples miss. And even for guys, if we understand the ground rules, if we understand how the game is played, what are the rules for this sport, or whatever the case is. We can function within them. And so when we sit down and say, okay, when there are situations, when this come up, we’re gonna, we’re gonna use the, the, the I’m, I’m an eight, I’m a 10, I’m a two or whatever.

We’re gonna use that model or we’re going to agree. I think one of the, we use guiding principles with, with Rhapsody, we teach our clients to do use that. I think one of the, the, at the top of that list, that should be on every couple’s list of best. Practices around this is, I’m going to believe you have the best intentions for me at heart.

Yeah.

Eric: Assume good intent.

Rob: Okay. Assume good intent. Yeah. So if I go silent, she, I would ask Wendy [00:43:00] to assume that. Yeah, I love that. I’m not, that’s not a negative on or a reflection on you. It’s me. For whatever I’m working through, but assume good attempt.

Eric: It’s just like that meme right there. Two, a couple lying in bed.

Yeah. Wonder you And the one guy’s got, like, they have got their backs to each other and the, you know, uh, the woman’s thinking, he’s thinking of another woman. He’s thinking and going through all this stuff in her head and, and like his, he’s thinking about like what he’s gonna have for breakfast.

All: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eric: Or something like that, right? Yeah. It’s great. Like

Kate: literally

Eric: Yeah. Literally all

All: kinds

Eric: of, yeah.

All: Yeah.

Kate: So. W There’s also, I would argue, sort of out there in the, in the world on the interweb as we, in the, in the world verse inter web. Inter inter interweb.

Eric: Yeah.

Kate: What’s it actually called? Internet. Wow. It’s been a long day of recording though.

But that

Eric: information, super highway.

Kate: Oh, ooh. There’s

Eric: that, there’s a term that hasn’t been used

Kate: in a while. Now you’re geeking out

Eric: 1990s

Kate: called

Rob: Say they. They dialed up. They dialed up. They dialed up. They,

Eric: do

Rob: you

Eric: remember the modem? [00:44:00]

Kate: You instantly,

Eric: and you go to pick up the call and somebody’s on the, the computer.

You’re like, ah, get

Kate: off, get off. Um, but there is, you know, this, that it’s hard for men to be vulnerable, but what is it that, for you, like what is the perceived. Like risk of being vulnerable. What are men scared of in that space?

Rob: Hmm. I mean, I’m being judged. Yeah. Being misunderstood. Uh, I think those are right up at the top of the list of, of being wrong because if I’m being vulnerable in that moment, to your point, if I’m talking this out and I’m just being open and then I, I realize that’s not how I’m feeling.

Like now I’m wrong and now you think I’m wrong. And, and so I think there’s a lot. That goes on about processing, and if I need to be vulnerable and open, uh, I’m going to be again, either judged, attacked, or misunderstood.

Eric: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. So I think the, I think we’re terrified of, uh, being seen as weak.

Rob: Right.

Eric: Um, and I think there’s this. Thing about, we really don’t want to disappoint the people [00:45:00] that matter the most to us. So there’s a lot to overcome there. It feels like the, the stakes can feel really high and the margin for error feel very small. Um, and so the willingness to take that risk, um, you know, we work with clients all the time.

I got, you know, really strong personality type leaders who complain that their teams don’t. To speak up more or don’t engage more. And I’m like, well, part of it is because when they try Right. You may overpower them Yeah. Uh, too quickly or Yeah. You, you may come at them too strong and not give them enough space to build up the muscle.

Mm-hmm. And I think it’s, it’s the same where men are trying to make that effort, um, again, assuming good intent, even if we’re fumbling our way forward. Uh, it’s remembering that for us, that fear of failure, that fear of see being seen weak. Yeah. Um, and of not showing up the way we’re supposed to show up is so significant that our default will be to avoid as opposed to engage, um, again in early

Kate: stages.

Yeah, I mean, it makes total sense. Yeah. So what do you look for in, in your partner? To carve out that safe space, like [00:46:00] what creates, what do you need, right? Mm-hmm. In a, in your relationship to feel at peace, I guess to be vulnerable, like what do you need from your person?

Eric: Uh, I think I would say like all the things that, um, I think any relationship needs to feel safe, right?

Yeah. Like, uh, in the workplace we talk about emotional safety, uh, is, is being talked about more and more I think in relationships. Emotional safety is where you feel you, it’s okay to show up, not okay.

Kate: Yeah.

Eric: Um, guys, that, like, that’s tough for us to do ’cause we have to show up. Okay. There’s a pressure we always have to be on top of our shed.

Like we can’t, we can’t show weakness. Mm. Um. Right. ’cause it’s a, the society doesn’t look well in that now, thankfully, that’s beginning to shift. Mm-hmm. Um, but it’s still, it’s still a big one. So where, where, where one feels safe and okay to not be okay. And that there is space for that. It gives that.

Person, I think, space to explore. Oh, um, I just opened up or I [00:47:00] just demonstrated some vulnerability or I just showed up, not at a hundred percent and I didn’t get. Judged or criticized or mocked mm-hmm. Or made fun of, um, or seen as less than, right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, then that creates an environment, uh, where that, that dude might start flexing that muscle more often and start doing more reps, and all of a sudden the shoulders start to drop and the defensiveness goes down.

Mm-hmm. And the distance starts to, uh, get smaller and maybe he starts to open up and share things he’s never shared before. Um, right. So.

Rob: Yeah. And it, and I think it goes to what we talk, we asked that question last, uh, um, episode when kind of the reversed it and what do women need? And, and I loved your answer, Kate.

Mm-hmm. Because you, you, you kind of went the whole, I don’t know. Yeah. Sometimes. And that’s the answer. And I think, I think it would be the same for guys on this one is that it’s, it, it’s a difficult question to answer with a, here’s what I need because. What I need might [00:48:00] be different, uh, based on the circumstance.

Yeah. Okay. Uh, based on my energy level. Right. Uh, all of these other things. And so I, there’s a, probably in any couple men or women, uh, what we need is the space for understanding. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, that, that we may not even know. And and to figure it out together. And I think that’s such a beautiful thing that we talked about last, uh, episode.

And I think it falls in here, is that we need to figure it out together.

Eric: Fundamentally, isn’t it? The basic human need to I feel seen. I feel heard.

Rob: Yeah.

Eric: Right. And I think that’s 1000 very, the foundation of a safe, uh, emotional safety is. I can be who I am in in this moment and there is room for that. Yeah, there’s room for me to show up less than

Kate: I love that.

Okay, and wrapping up, I’m looking at time, if there’s one thing you could tell women that would help them hear men better. What would it be?

Rob: Whew. Do [00:49:00] you

Kate: do like some music there?

Rob: Well, I, I, I think it, it fits into what we just said. Give us, uh, the space to land. Mm. Uh, give us that space to figure it out. Um, uh, recognize that there is an underlying fear that we’re gonna fuck.

This up.

Kate: Yeah.

Rob: And so when women, when I know for Wendy, when she gives me that space when I’m trying to even communicate or I stumble or fumble around with what I’m feeling or saying that she just gives the space and just listens, doesn’t jump in, doesn’t cut me off. Just lets me figure it out. And then even after I say it, I might go, you know, no, that’s not it.

She doesn’t go, well, my God, what do you, what is it then? Right? Yeah. Like, it just, so give us the space to land.

Eric: Yeah. And, and I, I would echo, I would say, again, I said it. Earlier, but I would say assume good intent.

Rob: Yeah. Yeah.

Eric: Uh, when we withdraw, when we’re quiet, we’re not trying to distance, we’re not trying to shut you out.

Um, we’re actually trying not to screw it up. [00:50:00] Yeah. And when you can approach it from that perspective, everything changes because all of a sudden, even if we’re fumbling our way forward, what is seen as the effort being made as opposed to, uh, what we feel is we’re completely screwing up and in that environment.

Pressure goes down, curiosity goes up, uh, and all of a sudden, um, you know, great conversations can, can follow. So assume good intent.

Kate: I love both of those. Well, this was an awesome, great conversation. It’s great.

Eric: Mm.

Kate: Thanks everyone for joining us. If you like this episode, please like, share and subscribe. You can listen to us wherever you listen to your podcast.

You can also visit us@livingrichly.me, where you can join the Facebook Living Richly Nation Group. And if you’re a business leader or leading a team, you can check out Rapsody Strategies, who will help you along the way. So thanks again for joining us. Until next time, get out there and live your best [00:51:00] life.