Beyond the Buzzwords: What It Really Means to Do the Work

Beyond the Buzzwords: What It Really Means to Do the Work

 

Eric: [00:00:00] You can’t do therapy wrong, just the fact that you are showing up, having the courage and the right just to show up and look at some of that stuff and talk about it and begin to deal with it at whatever pace makes sense for you. That is probably one of the most courageous acts.

Matthew: People think that they’re supposed to say new things every time.

Therapy is a lot of frigging repetition.

Kate: Uh, I talk a lot about therapy and the power of therapy on the show ’cause I so believe in doing the work. I mean, I

Gundel: think so much of the work that we do is about relational wounds. Hmm. You know, things that need to be. Also healed through relationship.

Eric: Hi everyone and welcome to the Living Richly podcast. We’re so glad that you’ve joined us today. Today we’re gonna be talking about what it means. To do the work beyond all the hype and all the buzzwords, and we are really fortunate to have in Studio today, two great [00:01:00] guests, Matthew Rippy, young Gundel Lake.

Great to have you both here. Hello.

Matthew: Hi. Thanks for having us.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely. Of course. Matt, you’re, uh, Matthew, you’re a returning guest. You’re, uh, you’ve been on the show now. I think this is your third time. Woo-hoo. Uh, make it to five. You get a special robe just like Saturday Night Live. Okay.

Matthew: That’s a Do I wanna be Alec Baldwin?

Uh, I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know.

Eric: Do do, yeah. Do we need to talk about that today? Uh, your explore your Alec Baldwin fascination. I don’t see the

Matthew: couch. Don’t see the couch. That

Eric: couch isn’t here. Uh, but we are gonna be talking about a great subject matter. You’re a psychy, of course. A psychologist.

Have your own practice here, uh, here in Ottawa with a team, uh, Gundel. You’re a social worker, right? Uh, and you’ve been involved in this line of work also for a long time. I think you guys just said before the show between the two of you. Uh, you have, what is it, 50 years? Uh, of experience in, in therapy. Not on the couch, but on on the other side of the, on the on.

Right. That’s right. Uh, so this is gonna be a great, great conversation. Yeah. Let’s start by, how do you define doing the work? What does that mean to you? Um, [00:02:00] when you work with your patients, your clients?

Gundel: I mean, I think it means a lot of things. Um, you know, but. Part of it is about building an awareness. You know, I think taking things that are often implicit and making them more explicit, um, but all the while trying to embody that, you know, it’s not just about thinking, it’s not just about learning things and sort of having the buzzwords and you know, the concepts, but it’s about actually applying that and.

You know, trying to live in that dimension. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Love. So well said. I

Kate: love that. Love that. So well said.

Matthew: Yeah. I think for me, a lot of the work, uh. Like the basis of a lot of the work ends up being getting to know yourself because I think a lot of people come to therapy and they’re like, okay, I think I have X problem.

How do you fix X problem? And each problem presents itself in a variety of ways, right? I. And so if, if you wanna know the generic things, [00:03:00] like there is the worldwide interwebs, I would encourage you. Is that a thing? It is a thing apparently it is an information super high net. Oh, do you remember that? In the nineties?

I, yeah, the nineties called, they want the jargon back. I know. Say that. Right. But like, I mean there’s all kinds of good re you can go to a. Bookstore or a library and you can read generic things. But the way I think therapy is different is that it is really about getting to know oneself and how the problem even expresses itself in you.

And that’s, you know, ’cause there are things that, like, there are things that are gonna get me that aren’t gonna get you at all.

Kate: Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew: And so the work a lot, I think people are afraid sometimes to like. Look behind the curtain. Yeah. ’cause they don’t know what they’re gonna see and they’re worried about it.

100,

Kate: 100%. Yeah. You talked about the magic land of the interweb, um, and Google. And I wonder like, you know, if you could debunk some of the myths that you think people, when they’re like, I have to do the [00:04:00] work. What are some of those common myths you think people hold?

Gundel: I think one of them is that CBT is gonna fix everything.

All: Oh my God.

Gundel: You know, the, I mean, I think CBT absolutely has a place, you know, it’s helpful in a lot of circumstances and it is an evidence-based, um, approach. Mm-hmm. But it, it’s one approach among many. Right. You know, and it’s not sufficient to. Resolve every issue that every human has. Right.

Kate: Can you tell us what CBT is maybe for our listeners on a

Gundel: bit?

Yeah. So CBT is cognitive behavioral therapy, and essentially I think that refers to the idea that our thinking really affects our behavior. So if we change our thinking, then we change our behavior, but that leaves out so many other parts of the human experience. You know, we aren’t just our thinking brain.

Right? Yeah.

Eric: Yeah, the feeling brain often gets in the way of the thinking. [00:05:00] Yes. Not for me, not for me. CBT has been a, a powerful, uh, methodology that’s been very helpful in my life, along with, with some others. Uh, I, and I was surprised to learn that it was actually inspired, um, by the ancient stoics, uh, that much of CBT was actually influenced by that, but they also missed out on, they were trying to emphasize, I think, the need to have a more disciplined approach in our thinking and not letting every wild thought that enters our mind kind of dick.

Tate how we live our lives, but it’s missing out often on that emotional component. Right. Uh, what about you? Some other misconceptions that, uh, we might debunk right at the beginning of the show?

Matthew: Uh, that you can stop having feelings. Like that’s the thing. People come in and they’re like, I wanna do the CBT so that I always feel happy and I’m like, oh.

Okay,

Eric: you’re in the wrong place, right? Like,

Matthew: feelings aren’t bad, right? Like, you know, I mean, I think people, again, are afraid of a lot of things. Um, and [00:06:00] like that the idea that if I have a thought or if I have a feeling or if something runs through my head, that might mean I’m a bad person and like, that’s not okay.

And so I gotta, I got like, shut all that down. Yeah. And like her feelings, they’re like more information. Yeah. Like they’re, they’re very helpful.

Kate: That’s a great way to put it. I’m always, when I’m in therapy, Sherry is like always, she’s, she’s always like, yeah, that, that’s like a, that’s, that’s an okay reaction or feeling or whatever.

She’s like, I would feel the same way. And every time she says it, I’m like, thank you. It’s like she validates, she’s like, she’s like, you’re supposed to feel, and it’s funny how sometimes it’s like. Like I, from personal experience, how like guilty I can feel or like I have that exact thought man, where it’s like I’m a horrible person.

’cause I thought this and it’s, you’re not a horrible person. It’s a feeling. You’re working through it and we all feel at the end of the day,

Matthew: well, and we all have the capacity for all of it.

Kate: Yeah. Like that’s the

Matthew: thing. I think we get into this like, oh, am I a [00:07:00] good person? Am I a bad person? You’re a person.

We’re all good and bad. Like, yes.

Gundel: Let me do

Matthew: you a solid. Yeah. Put that away. Yeah,

Eric: exactly. Exactly.

Gundel: And we need. That full range of feelings. You know, we often talk about negative feelings and And the positive feelings. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And you can’t just cut off the ones that are uncomfortable and that you don’t like anger, sadness.

Yeah. Guilt even are every bit as essential to human experience as happiness and contentment and. You know, all the ones that feel better. Right. To feel right.

Eric: Right. Well, and you’ve talked about on the show, I think a lot of, and you know how passionate I am about specifically helping men. Yeah. Uh, because men really struggle when it comes to emotional expression.

And even having any kind of, uh, emotional acuity being able to name what they’re going through, that I think, what is it, rage and chill are the two feelings that. And you’ve described it as, uh, it’s like living in black and [00:08:00] white as opposed to living in full color. Is it harder for men to do the work, uh, this particular kind of work?

Have you seen that? Or is that also a myth?

Matthew: I mean, I think socialization is kind of where I go to this, that like, it’s not technically harder, but. Having more emotional expression isn’t usually reinforced. Like, I mean, I was, I have to say, I was listening to the news on the way in this morning and listening to a tearful hockey player who lost the, the game.

And he, you know, as he is giving the press conference, I mean, I didn’t see the video, but it sounded like he was crying. And I was like, well, good for you. Maybe, maybe the next generation has some hope. Yeah. But um. But yeah, we just like, I think men don’t, the men that I see in my office, they’re not used to exploring their feelings.

And I mean, I don’t think this is just men. I think a lot of men and women focus on what they should feel and, or like they’ll come in, they’re like, [00:09:00] I don’t know what I should feel about this. And I’m like, it ain’t should buddy. Like what do you actually feel? Let’s go with that. And then the digging, like, I mean, they can do it in a safe space.

Yeah,

Eric: a hundred percent.

Kate: So. I’m curious what you talk, you know, you’re, you have this passion for helping men, obviously. Well, I think it takes a very special individual to go into your line of work. So I’m curious to know from both of you, like, what was that, like? What, what drove you to take this career path in your life?

Was it a, was it a moment? Was it, was it like a random decision on a Saturday?

Price is

Eric: right. I got the short straw.

Kate: I’m

Gundel: curious. Yeah. It was a bit random for me actually. Yeah. Yeah. I, um, you know, I, I was in school for history and, you know, I sort of fell into, uh, gender studies. I, I really felt like that way of thinking about the [00:10:00] world really aligned with who I was. Hmm. Um. You know, but what do you do with a degree in history in women’s studies?

A lot of

All (2): things. Yeah. That’s

Gundel: fair. Fair. I didn’t wanna that. I mean, yes. And also, you know, coming out of school I really, you know, had a question about that, but that sort of led me into doing social service work. Um, you know, and, and from there, it. You know, I didn’t, at that point in my life, I didn’t know what social work was, but I decided, okay, I’m gonna pursue this.

I wanna explore this. And, you know, I think even the same thing happened for me with, um, you know, pursuing psychotherapy as, as part of my social work practice. I didn’t really understand what it was. You know, I thought, you know, early on in life that that meant I had to have all the answers for people.

That that was kind of the job of a therapist and Right.

All: Kill me. [00:11:00]

All (2): Don’t have all the answers. I don’t even barely have one answer. So I don’t know what I was thinking. Well, and now I don’t even need them.

Eric: Right, right.

All (2): Yeah. Yeah. And can you

Eric: explain the difference for our listeners? ’cause I have to admit, I’m a bit foggy on the difference between, for example, like a therapist, a psychologist, and a social worker.

I think there’s a lot of similarities, but for our listeners, uh, who might be going, I don’t know what the difference is,

Gundel: right?

Eric: Yeah.

Gundel: Yeah. I think for me, like social work is a very broad. Profession, you can do lots of things as a social worker, um, some of which have, you know, aren’t about therapy at all. As a social worker in Ontario, I’m allowed to practice psychotherapy as a controlled act.

And so, you know, I, I sort of see psychotherapy as like a, you know, sort of subset of social work. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah.

Matthew: Yeah. And so, and psychotherapy, as you said, is a controlled act, so that means that there’s [00:12:00] legislation behind it. Okay. Who’s allowed to provide it? There’s only like six different people that can provide it.

Okay. Um, and it’s like regulated provincially. Yeah. But so I would say like a big difference between a psychologist and a social worker Yeah. Is in our training where we focus is different. So psychologists focus on pathology, diagnosis, illness, um, and in the individual. Where I feel like social worker is more like, let’s look at the social structures that make people sick.

Okay. Instead of locating the illness in a person. Got it. Gotcha. Okay. It’s kind of located in people and then there’s also this whole glut of psychotherapists, um, that are, so they have, uh, advanced training in how to provide therapy. Um, but they would. They might have a psychology background. They used to have social work backgrounds before they got their own college, but it’s like, it’s another yeah.

Level. And I would say like psychotherapists are, they’re not trained so much in pathology, but in wellness, I.

Eric: Gotcha. Yeah. Love that. Love that. We could almost, [00:13:00] uh, this almost sounds like, um, a bad joke. Like a, a psych, you know, psychologist, a social worker, a gratitude coach, and a business coach walking a bar.

That’s how that one can go. Um, I’m curious, uh, I think you’ve told a story before, but for the sake of our listeners today, how did, what drew you into this line? What was that moment where you decided to. Throw yourself into this line of work?

Matthew: Well, I’ve always, I’ve always liked being a helper. Uh, and certainly in my, the family I grew up in with a disabled other brother and a mom who struggled, um, you know, helping was always natural.

And so when it was time to go to school, I, I. Went to school for psychology, but I really loved English and so most of my classes in university were either psychology, sociology, or English classes after first year. And I realized what I really loved was stories. Like I love stories. And so when it was time to decide what to do next, ’cause what can you do with a BA in sight?

All (2): I have a lot of feelings about that, a lot

Eric: apparently. [00:14:00]

Matthew: And so graduate school was next, and so I was. Thinking about whether or not to go on and become an English professor or become a therapist, and I was like, well. I do actually wanna do something practical, something that, I mean, I think, you know, research on 14th century flags in England does contribute something like I not to take away from it.

Um, for any flag fans out there,

Eric: we don’t want you unsubscribing from the show.

Matthew: But, you know, I think literature is really important culturally, but, um, I wanted to be able to make a difference and I’m not someone who is gonna. Change the universe. I’m happy to change people one at a time. Mm. And so, uh, so when I figured out that it was the stories and I wanted to be practical, then it was kind of a beeline to Okay.

Off we go.

Eric: Yeah. And lots of, lots of people have been helped as a result. Yeah. Of both of your choices, right? I think so, yeah. Yeah. Amazing, actually. Amazing.

Kate: Um, I’m curious, I [00:15:00] talk, my girlfriends and I talk all the time about our therapy journeys. I love that we’re all in therapy. It’s actually fantastic. Um, and I talk a lot about therapy and the power of therapy on the show ’cause I so believe in doing the work.

But I will say in talking with my girlfriends, we all have a very different. Experience with therapy. So I’m curious, you know, is there, you know, like CBT, is there this universal approach that works with everyone? Does it become a very like customized experience for everyone who goes into therapy? What’s kind of your lens on that?

Matthew: Well, when you were talking about CBT before, yeah. The thing that comes up for me is that with most of the theories or approaches, there are true believers. Who are like, this will fix everything. You have a nosebleed CBT, right? But like you can interchange that with CBT, with emotion focus therapy, with eye movement desensitization and reprocessing internal family systems.

The true believers think that their [00:16:00] way does everything. And so what we know from the research like that was done in I think the fifties or the sixties is the most important thing in therapy is fit.

Eric: Right, right.

Matthew: So like they, you know, they did research with, uh, trained professionals and they had a bunch of housewives and they taught the housewives active listening skills and like skills to demonstrate empathy.

And there was no difference in the outcomes across the groups. And what was really came through is it’s the fit. So if, I mean, this is why I do a lot of little videos. ’cause uh, before people come to the office, I want them to know that they wanna see me, right? Because. If we’re not gonna be a good fit.

That’s like a really, like that’s an expensive waste of money. Yeah. To come. And then also, there are lots of people who are pleasers and so they come and they’re like, oh, it’s not a good fit, but I’m just gonna stay for six months. Run. Like, don’t run, get out. Your therapist feelings will not be hurt. They will get it.

Kate: Yeah. You need to, I always love that acquitted to like, you gotta try [00:17:00] on, yeah. Like, I’m going to an event and I gotta get a dress. I’m trying on five dresses before I find the, and when I find the one that works and that I love. That’s the one that’s exactly, we talked about that one. Therapy is a dress.

Yeah.

Eric: Well I think it’s no different than, uh, we quoted this, uh, well several shows ago now, it seems like another lifetime ago now, but there was research done on what’s the best diet, the most effective diet out there, and the other was. What’s the best, um, exercise regimen Right. To get into shape and all the research came back and they said none of it.

It’s the one you stick with. Yeah. Uh, really what it comes down to is you find what works for you and, but I think everybody gets really passionate about their methodology. Yeah. And often tries to become a little bit, um, um, um, I don’t know, uh, too, too rigid around that as to, yeah. Understanding that different things will work for different people and just ’cause your journey was this someone else’s journey may be very different.

Right. Yeah.

Gundel: And I think the other piece about fit is, you know, what’s so essential to therapy working [00:18:00] is the development of the relationship. Yeah. You know, over time. So I think again, like. Debunking a another myth, you know, it’s really hard often, unless it’s like a very specific small problem to like see results in one or two sessions.

Because I mean, I think so much of the work that we do is about relational wounds. Hmm. You know, things that. Need to be also healed through relationship and it that takes time. You know,

Kate: we’re in such a, like immediate, I want immediate

Matthew: six sessions are left.

Kate: Yes. Like I can only imagine that people are like, I don’t understand seven steps.

Right. Not fixed, I’m not fixed either. I would imagine is people want something, right? It’s the pill, it’s the quick fix. It’s like, and it’s the, I mean, doing the work is. Doing the work. It’s an investment in yourself. Yeah.

Matthew: And. Another myth to debunk that just came up. People think that they’re supposed to say new [00:19:00] things every time.

Therapy is a lot of frigging repetition and like that’s it’s, you’re not behind, you’re not making a mistake. It’s not that you didn’t get it right the first time.

Gundel: Not regressing.

Matthew: No, not regressing. And to speak to the long term relationships. You know, there’s some people, I mean, I’ve seen. Consistently for years and years.

But there are people that’ll come and they’ll come and work for a little bit, like maybe a couple years, and then they’ll go away, and then they’ll come back three years later and they’ll be like, oh, I thought I dealt with this. And it’s like, well, you did like newsflash, you did it. You did the work. But however you continue to evolve because also newsflash, we don’t stop growing at 25.

Yeah. Like throughout life things hit us differently or you know, people go through things and they come to therapy and then they have kids and then their kids are like the age that they were when they went through something and they’re like,

All: oh

Kate: yeah, I was so little. So it hits you different. I always say in my [00:20:00] therapy journey, at one point I got therapy out.

Like I, I was like, I just, I’m done. I’m good for a bit. And I was good for actually, like, I’m gonna say five or six years and then all of a sudden something happened and then I’m like, I really need therapy. And you go back and it’s, it’s actually really refreshing to hear you say it’s okay to come back and talk about the same stuff.

’cause I think being on the other side of the table sometimes it’s like we’re

Eric: doing it wrong.

Kate: I. Well, you and I in particular, I’m like, I think I’m doing therapy wrong.

Matthew: I think I’m failing. I’m failing at therapy. I’m failing at therapy. The only people that can do therapy wrong are over here. Like, no, but for real, legit.

Right, because like, I mean, that’s it, but

Kate: I like legitimately will go into therapy and I am like, I, I will look at Sherry and I’m like, I feel like she’s looking at me going like, oh, not this again.

Eric: See your eyes. Well, I’m having a bit of a like, uh, a mind blown because I’ve often told my story of my journey, uh, my healing journey over the years and.

Started reaching out when I was younger, like a young leader, [00:21:00] always pushed to the front of the room, lots of pressure. And by like mid twenties I was like, something’s not right. Like I’m, I’m all smiles on the outside, but feel like pretty miserable on the inside. And so late twenties, I started reaching out for help and I, I tell the story over and over again that I always did just enough work.

Um. To get back in the game, it was almost like, put me back in, coach. I’m okay. It was kind of thing, but I, I wouldn’t stick with it. Uh, and I, I I, it’s just funny in that just what you guys, what you just said, kinda like, oh, well maybe that was just the journey that I was ready for and that it was in layers.

Uh, but I’ve often looked at it as, um, I did something wrong ’cause I didn’t stick with it. And if I had stuck with it, maybe I would’ve been better sooner, if that makes sense. Right. But what I’m hearing is it’s quite common for people to approach it that way.

Matthew: Oh yeah, yeah. No, like, I mean, I think this is, this is where like the social structure business I think comes in because we perpetuate these bags of lies around the [00:22:00] way that things are supposed to be.

And that therapy is linear, or change is linear. Or you know, if you’re not seeing the results while you’re doing it wrong. And like the way I often explain it to people is like all of us, all humans, we each have our little bag of shit. And in our bag of shit, there’s probably three or four things and you know, me too, me included.

And when I’m doing well, the bag of shit is closed. When I’m not doing well, oh,

Eric: hi. It

Matthew: starts

Eric: to

Matthew: smell right. And like my personal issues come up and they need to be reconciled and then they go back in the bag, but like they don’t. Evaporate, right? They’re always gonna, it’s like with a broken bone, once you break a bone, that bone’s always gonna be a little bit more vulnerable than other bones.

You didn’t break. It doesn’t mean you’re broken. It’s just like that’s, I don’t know. It’s the way life is.

Eric: Yeah, and I think most growth, I. Whether we’re talking like we’re in therapy or any kind of personal growth and development that we’re doing outside of that. Yeah. ’cause there’s all kinds of ways that we can, we can heal.

And [00:23:00] I’m really grateful that although there’s lots of information out there now, it can feel a bit overwhelming. At least we’re talking about it in a way that we didn’t 10 years ago, 15 years ago, uh, you couldn’t talk about not being okay. Uh, a while ago the stigma was so bad. Now it’s almost a. It’s almost like uncool to not be sick

Matthew: like I would think Tony Soprano for that.

Tony Soprano did a lot for our business. Yeah, yeah, he did. He did. He sent a lot of people to therapy. Um, I just spent

Kate: way back in my head there. Yeah. I can see the room. I can see the, I can see him sitting. Yeah. The chair. Yeah. Yeah.

Eric: But, but I think most growth is, is like incremental. It’s like micro evolutions.

And, uh, I refer to, so this podcast, uh, in many ways, uh, was birthed out of my personal journey, uh, back, uh, early 2022. I describe it as like my second grade awakening. Uh, and the way I describe it to folks is nothing magical happened. I was going through some shit and I was getting some support, and then it feels like all the work I’ve been doing for a really [00:24:00] long time.

It kind of landed and all of a sudden my perspective shifted, not all of a sudden, but over a period of very, uh, like short few months. But I don’t think I could have got there if I hadn’t put the time in all those years before making sometimes like, didn’t, like one step forward, two steps back it felt like.

So I guess it’s like that, um,

Matthew: well, we call it consolidation. Mm-hmm. Like that’s what happened. Right. It’s that like all the learnings kind of coalesced together. Yeah. And then, oh. You know, I can see the other side of this cup now,

Eric: right? I couldn’t see it before. Yeah. Yeah. I love

Gundel: it. And I think too, if you think about it a little bit like, like exercise, right?

You do a hard workout, you get all these like little muscle tears. Mm-hmm. And then you need to rest. Mm-hmm. And, and that’s what helps sort of build growth over time. And so I think the idea of giving yourself permission to take it slowly and to pace it, you know, actually helps us absorb and. And consolidate.

You know [00:25:00] what it is that’s happening not on conscious levels.

Matthew: Well, and if you don’t. Like if, if you decide, okay, I’m gonna blow the doors off, I’m just gonna go straight through, you’re not actually doing any work. ’cause we all have this like, window of affect tolerance. We call it. Affect is like feeling.

And in order to process things, you have to stay in your window. We all have a, a varying size of window. Some have a pinhole.

All: Yeah.

Matthew: Right. But that’s where you have to do the work. Right. Because if you’re trying, if, if it’s too intense. You’re just retraumatizing yourself. You’re all your circuitry, floods.

You don’t learn anything. You don’t get anything except maybe diarrhea. And then if it’s, so, you heard it here first, folks, if, if you’re getting diarrhea

Eric: after your therapy session,

Matthew: you might wanna slow down.

Kate: It’s not, it’s not a good fit. It’s not a good fit.

Matthew: Not a good fit. No. And talk to your therapist about like, that was too much.

Right. Like, because the pacing to your point [00:26:00] is important. ’cause if you’re not, you know, if you’re, I mean, you gotta push a little, but if you push too much, it doesn’t work. And if you don’t push enough, you’re just kind of,

Kate: yeah. So I did something. I don’t, I don’t, it has a name and I don’t know, but it’s, there’s a lot of tapping and you go back your childhood.

Yeah. Go back and kind of relive, and I like, you’re reliving a lot of things that happened and it’s very like raw. And that’s when I got thep out and I was like, shocker. I was like, I’m like, why do I have to relive this to like move through it? And so that was a moment for me where I was like, you talk about, I’m like, that wasn’t, that wasn’t working for me.

It wasn’t a good fit for me that that. Type of therapy was definitely something for me that I was like, I’m at, I couldn’t, like, I was literally running out the door. I’m like, bye. Yeah.

Matthew: Well, right. And that’s a good conversation to be having. Yes. Right about, oh, like, or you know, I lose two days after every session.

Yeah. Like toast.

Kate: Yeah. Like emotionally just, it’s like you re, you really do feel like you’re reliving some childhood [00:27:00] trauma and it’s very heavy. Very heavy.

Gundel: And I think that’s a great point. Another myth like. Therapy is not about reliving the things Yes. You might have to revisit. Yeah. But we always wanna help you try and stay anchored in the present, you know, kind of oriented in time and space so that there’s the distance.

Mm. You know, and I, I think it’s a really good sign if you feel like you’re in it too much. Like we were saying, that’s an important conversation to have with the therapist, right? Yeah. Because. You know, we can’t always gauge that. Yeah. You know, maybe it happens when you’re home and you’re not in session with us.

Yeah. Um, but part of our job is to be trying to watch for that and assess for that, you know, so there’s lots happening in us while we’re with, you know, anyone. Mm-hmm. Um, that isn’t necessarily explicit, but I think it’s important to sort of understand that that’s also part of doing the work

Kate: Well, and it’s, it’s the vulnerability to be able to say that.

Yes. Like I. [00:28:00] One of my things. But anyways, being vulnerable, even with my therapist is hard for me. When you talk about the fit and finding the person that you can truly feel vulnerable with, takes a lot of, well, for me, I’ll speak. For me, it takes me a lot of time. Yes. To be able to have like to even go back in and say, that didn’t work for me.

I’d be like. Again, I’m failing at this.

Eric: Like both. I wanna make sure

All: you’re okay.

Eric: You both, I mean, I’m very present and engaged in this conversation right now, but that truth bomb, uh, of like, I wasn’t doing it wrong just ’cause I took time and I wouldn’t stick. There’s a bit, bit of a, it’s kind of fucking with me right now in a good way.

Um, ’cause again, we talk about, uh, you said your bag of shit, right? Like I, I use the language that I think most of us, there’s probably three or four. Lies, um, that are running our lives. Mm-hmm. Right? Uh, that we’ve come to believe about ourselves primarily or how the world works. And for me, it came, it was a, uh, about discovering, really getting present what those lies were, why they came to be, and how I might begin to frame it [00:29:00] differently.

And, uh, I remember the, the, one of the signs I, I, I was so proud of myself about a year ago, I looked. Back on some old journal notes. I, I love to write. Um, that’s how I reflect, get stuff outta here, outta my head and get it on the paper where I can look at it. Um, and early on in my work, my mentor, uh, Jim Harrington had asked me, I had such a deep sense of self-loathing.

We’ve talked about this before. Like it was so bad. I, I was the guy that was smiling and encouraging everybody else, but most of the time felt I didn’t deserve a second chance, didn’t deserve grace. I, that’s how I felt about myself. And he encouraged me to write down three things, three positive things about no 10.

I said, I want you to write down 10 things about yourself that you love. And I couldn’t get past three. I honestly couldn’t. And I struggled with the three well, in time, uh, over time it probably took me a period of about two years. I ended up with 20

Matthew: oh.

Eric: Um, and the 20 were, um. A lot of them were aimed now that I better understood the lies that I believed.

They were almost like anchoring statements to say the [00:30:00] opposite thing, right? Uh, to kind of challenge that lie. And it was about a year ago, I revisited those notes and what was interesting is I didn’t need those anchoring statements anymore. Because fundamentally I didn’t believe any of the bullshit that had made them necessary in the first place I had.

Right? And so that was a, that was a moment where I was kind of celebrating growth. But I, I think again, like I, if, if anyone is listening to this show, like if you get nothing else out of it, you can’t do therapy wrong. Just the fact that you are showing up. Having the courage and the right just to show up and look at some of that stuff and talk about it and begin to deal with it at whatever pace makes sense for you.

That is probably one of the most courageous acts a human being could ever, can ever do.

Kate: So on that, for the people listening who are like. I’m busy, right?

Eric: They’re out there. We did, we did. We did an entire show on that. That we, we, we use the, I’m busy badge, like it’s some kind of badge of honor. Can we stop describing ourselves that way?

Kate: How can people weave [00:31:00] it into their life so it doesn’t, you know, feel like one more thing they ha they have to do in their day? Is there a way, like, you recommend people, is it one session a week? Is there a way that they can start. Like what is the best way for the busy people?

Matthew: I think you do have to think about, um, what resources do I have to shore up the base?

Because if you are really too busy and you’re not. Gonna have the things around you that you need to go into therapy, digging into your stuff is gonna be really destabilizing. Mm-hmm. So it, like, for me, it’s, it is around like, is it the right time for you? Maybe this isn’t the right time for you. Um, but if you would like it to be the right time for you, then you’re gonna have to like carve out some space.

Eric: Space. Mm.

Matthew: Yeah. I love

Eric: that.

Gundel: And I think the, the thinking about doing it is also a step. Yeah. You know, it’s, I mean, it, it may not feel like that big a thing, but Yeah. To even recognize, huh, like, maybe it would be [00:32:00] of benefit somehow, you know, for me to explore this process there, there’s already something happening inside and I think, you know, maybe you can’t take this step, you know, in the next two weeks or in the next six months.

Um. But I, I think that very active questioning can actually be quite powerful.

Eric: What are some things one might do, like outside of traditional therapy, like working with a therapist? We both work with the same one. Uh, uh, Sherry Kane outta the US and she’s been with, I’ve been working with Sherry for years and years and years.

She’s also the, uh, mindset coach for the Philadelphia Eagles who won the Super Bowl ah, uh, this year. And I give her all the credit. I said, ’cause he was working with those players. Great job, Sherry. Right? Great job. Wow. Um. And it’s part of my regular rhythm. I, I sit down with her every four to six weeks whether I think I need it or not.

Uh, for me it’s a good space just to kind of talk out some of the recent things that have happened and ’cause residue builds up. Right. And you don’t even realize it sometimes just ’cause of life events. But outside of traditional [00:33:00] therapy, what are some things folks might do? Maybe they’re not ready, maybe they don’t have the space, but they know they’re ready for something.

What are some things you would encourage outside of therapy? For people to, to take some steps towards becoming more whole.

Matthew: I, I mean, you know, you talked about how much you like to write. Mm. So the difference, like, so. Up here, we can have anywhere from five to nine thoughts at once and be convinced that we are working our business out when it is just tumble, tumble, tumble, tumble, tumble.

It’s a mess up there. It’s a mess, yeah. Up there. But so whether you’re talking to someone or whether you’re writing, you’re starting to frame your story. Stories have to make sense. Stories have a beginning, a middle, and an end. And it’s often in the talking where we start to say things and we’re like, oh.

Well, maybe it wasn’t quite like that. And we start to do the editing. And it’s the same with writing. Yeah. Mm. Right. That it, it helps you organize. It’s like, I, you know, I think of it like organizing a closet. Right? Right. Like you gotta [00:34:00] take all the shit out.

All: Yeah.

Matthew: Yeah. And then you have to find a place for it.

And so writing is something, you know, you can put notes on your phone like, or, you know,

Eric: you can dictate into your phone even. Like, you could just speak it into your phone and record it that way too now. Right,

Matthew: right. And so sometimes some of the more digital ways. Are helpful ’cause you can search. Yeah. And you can go back and see like, oh wait, when, when else was I talking about feeling like a loser?

Oh,

Eric: a

Matthew: lot. Ah, 35 hits

Eric: in the last week. Yeah. We, we call it, I use the language until it passes through the lips or the fingertips. You don’t have clarity, right. It’s just a jumbled mess. But there’s that act. To explaining it to someone else or writing it down, the, the brain automatically has to apply a number of filters to it, uh, to make it make sense or be more cohesive.

Even though sometimes I reread some of my old stuff, I go, that wasn’t very cohesive, but, uh, it was my attempt to make sense of what was happening, um, at the time. What would you add to that, like non-conventional ways to keep growing?

Gundel: [00:35:00] Well, I, I guess one thing I wanna, I would encourage folks not to do is like, rely.

Kind of solely on social media, like sound bites and, and Oh, there’s a lot of that, you know, little clips. Yeah, because I, I think the things that are often missed in those, you know, kind of one second. Mm-hmm. Noticing is the nuance and so you know it, that might initiate something. Yeah. But try not to take.

You know, those things as absolute truth if you identify with something, I think it’s important to explore it further somehow, you know, do some, do some more in depth reading or, you know, have a conversation with someone about that. But don’t just take that as, as kind of a truth, you know, about your experience.

I think for me, the. Like, something that’s really important to keep in mind is that this work takes time. Mm-hmm. It, it unfolds, you know, as we let our ourselves unfurl. Right. And so, yeah. You [00:36:00] know, the, that idea of like organizing through writing or through conversations with people, um, you know, it could be like a peer.

A peer group. Mm-hmm. You know that you’re working things through. It doesn’t have to be a professional setting. No. Right.

Kate: Yeah. So we talk a lot about community on the show. Yes. Living Richly Nation, our community, and how important the people are that surround you. So how. Important is that community in someone sort of, maybe I won’t call it success ’cause that’s me going success on their personal journey.

Growth. You’re doing right. You’re

All: doing right. I’m gonna do it right.

Eric: No high performers at this table,

Kate: but how, how big or how big of a role does the community, someone’s community, the people that surround them, play in their ability to shift and grow and change

Gundel: as a social worker? I think it’s like number one because they, you know, we are.

Relational beings, we depend on people. Mm-hmm. You know, so much of what happens in our inside [00:37:00] is connected to what is happening in relationship, not only with people, but with the environment and with social structures. And so I, I think I. You know, in as much as we’re encouraged to be busy all the time, we’re encouraged to be very individualistic.

I think those things in and of themselves actually contribute to some of the pain, you know, and distress that people experience. So when we say, Hey, like, I’m gonna invest in connecting with my community, or developing a community, that’s a pretty radical act actually.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely. I’ve, I’ve heard it said that, um, most of us, our deepest wounds were.

Relationship. Yes. Yeah. And our deepest healing will happen in relationship. Yes, yes. Matter of fact, my mentor Jim, uh, has often said that we turn to therapy. Thank God for folks that do like you, that do what you do. Um, right. Like I’ve benefited so much from folks that have devoted themselves to this career path and this, this, this service path, [00:38:00] uh, to help help other human beings who are struggling.

Uh, but if we knew how to do community better. A lot of what we look for in therapy we would find in community. Do you guys agree, disagree? What are your thoughts on that?

Matthew: Can I get an amen up in here? Like, no, but it, I mean, it’s true like to go back both to the community and to the vulnerability part.

Yeah. Like I think a lot of times we hear about, oh, who you surround yourself with is gonna have an impact on you. Yeah. As though like, you need to pick like elite leaders or you know, achievers or whatever. Yeah. It doesn’t matter who’s around you if you’re not vulnerable with them. Right. And you don’t, I mean, you know, you don’t have to peel off your skin for everyone you meet.

Yes. When the guy comes to deliver your mail, you don’t be by the way, but like I know I have. Three people Yeah. Who know everything about me. Yeah. Love that. Like everything. And I probably have half a dozen other people Yeah. That know almost everything. Yeah. About me. That’s amazing. And so, you know, I [00:39:00] mean, I still go to therapy.

Yeah. Like, you know, I mean, at this point in my life, I’m in an active phase of being in therapy now, but the things that I get out of being able to really be myself with other humans mm-hmm. Like that. Is what does the work for, you know, little Matthew who mm-hmm. Was really hurt. Mm. Being able to have people see me.

Mm-hmm. And that’s the thing about long-term therapy is that it is a relationship. Yeah. While you might not know all the details of our lives mm-hmm. We get to know each other and you get to be seen. You get to be heard. And af, you know, once we collect a few years of information, it’s not hard for us to be like, oh.

Yeah, that sounds like that time. Mm-hmm. When you know, you were at whatever and this happened, and people go like, how did you remember that? And I’m like, well, because it’s important to you. Like it’s important to your story. Mm. And so it connects people back to themselves. But you can’t do that [00:40:00] in speed dating.

Eric: Right. And, and, uh, again, part of my passion of creating a space, that’s what the Foundry’s all about, is creating a community for men, uh, 40 ish plus that have experienced enough life that they’re probably and highly successful. I’m, I work primarily with business owners and leaders. That’s my job. That’s my, my businesses around that.

So, but creating a space for them. To have a safe space to actually talk that I’m not fine actually in some areas of my life. Uh, ’cause men, I think men find it really, really hard. I think most guys have bros, uh, around them. And the conversation never goes really beyond. Babes blood, sports and business. And there’s one more booze.

Booze, right, that most of the conversations are just very superficial. And so we have what is a pseudo community of BROS that we hang out with, but do we have those people in our lives that can be a safe space where I can. Talk about what I’m going [00:41:00] through and, and seek advice and get, and maybe get called on my bullshit, right?

But in a, in a out of love and accountability, that’s really, really missing. And I think for, again, for guys, my, again, my passion is coming through here that I’m really, uh, uh, inspired to do something on that front because I see it so many times. People come to us for business coaching and leadership coaching, and within one or two sessions, I have highly successful individuals who are talking to me about.

Uh, you know, their marriage breaking down at home or how they feel depressed and how they’ve lost their way and they feel that they’re, you know, I didn’t sign up for all this and are feeling all kinds of of things. And so while we’re not therapists, we certainly hear, oftentimes we act like, uh, you don’t claim to be one, but they look to us to be a place where they can sometimes be the, the first and only place where they can be truly themselves, not pretend, and not be judged.

All (3): Right.

Eric: Right. And so

Matthew: it’s all about showing up. Mm, yeah. Right. Like, because you can have, you don’t have to wait till you’re in your forties. Right. To get this, like I, you know, before I lived in [00:42:00] Ottawa, I lived in a small town in Nova Scotia, and I did have a group of these dudes who like, you know, I mean, we did fun things too.

Yeah. But we were able to talk about. Our struggles. I think part of it, the group formed around somebody’s wife was dying. Mm-hmm. And had really little kids. I’m gonna

All: cry

Matthew: like, but there was no escaping. And I remember when I first met this guy, it was at a Boxing Day party at one of our mutual friend’s house.

And his wife who was dying, came up to me and she said, oh, you’re Matthew. You have to be my husband’s friend. He’s going to need you.

Kate: Hmm. Wow.

Matthew: And so there were five or six of us that really. Coalesced around this guy who had two little kids and we were all dads and, but it’s like, you know, somebody goes first and then the rest of us were able to show up and that’s like again, vulnerability.

That’s really what it’s about outside of therapy.

Eric: Hmm. Powerful.

Kate: That’s super powerful.

Eric: Yeah.

Kate: So for [00:43:00] someone right now, as someone who’s listening who’s like, they’re feeling kind of stuck, maybe they’ve been thinking about therapy for a while. What’s their first step? I. What do they do? How do they take action?

If they’re listening right now and they’re like, okay, I’m hearing it. I get it. I’m feeling empowered. Where do they start? Ask a friend,

Gundel: you know, because I, I think friends often know us, you know, in a particular way. Yeah. And can be a really, um, get a referral is where Exactly, yes. Like, do you work with someone that I, I think might.

You think might be a good fit for me? Yeah. You know, and just collect names. Yeah. And yeah, ask around with people that you trust. Um,

Eric: I love, I love that. ’cause like, again, we, we referred to it earlier on the show like that, that courageous act of finally moving, be beyond contemplation to I’m gonna take action and reach out.

It often takes more than one try to find the right fit. [00:44:00] And if the first experience, it took so much like courage and guts to show up to that first session, whether it was in person or on Zoom or whatever. Uh, and it doesn’t work out the, the tent, like I think. Yeah. A lot of folks then just, oh, it’s not for me.

Right. Yeah. But you have to ke like getting a referral might help with that. And I would add like keep trying. Keep trying. Yes. You’re probably not gonna get it right on the first time.

Kate: Yeah. And I like, I know, I’m thinking like when one of one, one of my kids needed, a therapist needed therapy. And what’s the first thing I do?

I ask all my girlfriends, I’m like, who? Who’s your kids there? Like, would that work for me? And I can tell you more often than not, that’s the route I’ve gone. And it’s, it’s, some have worked out, some haven’t. That again, that’s that fit part, but like what an amazing safe space to start.

Gundel: Yeah.

Kate: Yeah. Love that.

Gundel: You know, I, I, yeah. Like advertise in particular ways. I would say like 95% of my private practice clients are through word of mouth. Right. Right. Yeah. I believe that. Yeah. Amazing.

Matthew: I think the other thing about this ask your [00:45:00] friends is it also requires you then to connect more deeply with somebody, right?

Right. And so that usually if we start with our good friends, we’re probably gonna get a good reception, right? They’re not probably gonna say, well, you’re fucked.

Eric: And if they do.

Matthew: Choose

Eric: better

Matthew: friends. Well, I mean, you can say that with love sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Depends on the nature of your relationship.

Like I know that there are things that if people just read our texts. Uh, they would question our connection. Yeah. Yeah. But it is deep and abiding. Yeah. We can see that.

Eric: We can see that. Yeah. Yeah. So I’m curious, um, uh, without revealing anything too personal, what does doing the work look like for you right now?

Um, not, uh, as the one helping someone else, but in your own journey? What, what are some things you might share that, um, uh, might inspire our listeners?

Matthew: I mean, I, for me, kind of one of the things that’s [00:46:00] always in my bag is I can, I can take that on too. Like, and it’s not more tasks, it’s emotional stuff. And so by the end of 2023, there was like a lot of really hard stuff happening in my family, and it just like I was getting pushed over the edge.

And so for me, the work is being able to go someplace and to not apologize and to not say, is it okay if I tell you this? Mm. Like, I think it took me about five years to get to that with you as a friend, that like, and even sometimes still I say like, I’m not gonna apologize. I just, I need this. Mm. But for me, being able to ask and not, um, not just like set up all the conditions so that I’m more likely to get my needs met, but to be like, I need you to carry this with me.

Mm-hmm. Like, I can’t carry this by myself anymore. Wow. And there are, you know, I don’t. Always have other player or the places I go already are not enough. Mm-hmm. Right.

Eric: Right. So that’s what it [00:47:00] is. I lo well, I love that. I mean, well a script I’ve shared on the show many times that I still, uh, am working on is, uh, being a burden.

Yeah. Uh, I’ve been the helper my whole life. Uh, even as a kid. And so when I feel I need to lean on the people, even the people closest to me, I feel often like I’m being an inconvenience or that I’m putting too much on them. And so that I, I tend to isolate. So I can really resonate with that. Like, not apologize and say, Hey, I need to lean on you right now.

Yeah. Uh, can you just be there for me and, and hear me out? And

Kate: just, and then, yeah, and the, I’m the apology at the be like, I’m really sorry. You’re like, no, I’m just, it’s okay to just ask for what you need, but it’s amazing how hard, and I know there’s a lot of people listening who feel exactly the same way.

Matthew: The things people apologize for in therapy that like kind of at home make me laugh. Oh my God. Like you hate,

Kate: like a whole show

Matthew: crying. Like, okay, I buy Kleenex in bulk. Come on. We keep [00:48:00] CleanEx

All (2): in business.

Matthew: Yes. Uh, repeating themselves. Yes. Uh, saying something difficult like, oh, I like, or even being like five minutes late, like.

Dude, it’s your time. I’m good. If you come here like you’re five minutes late, it’s a 50 minute hour. Yeah. You’re not late. Yeah. That’s great.

Eric: It’s time to wrap up the show, but this has been a phenomenal conversation. Uh, again, I think someone listening in who has had some hesitation or misunderstandings about what doing the work, uh, looks and sounds like.

Obviously we can’t cover. All of of that. So we’ll probably just have to have you guys back for a follow up, uh, discussion on this. Uh, final words of wisdom from each of you to our listeners on this subject. Um, what would you want to leave them with as that final word of advice?

Matthew: It’s all about fit, so. I mean, you know, it used to be find a therapist in the yellow pages back in the day.

We’re all online. Mm. So read what we say. Mm. [00:49:00] Or if there’s videos or if there’s social media. Look and see if we are your vibe, because if we are not your vibe, you don’t like that. Don’t. Mm-hmm. Don’t someone is your vibe. You will fit with somebody, I guarantee. Yeah. Love

Eric: that. Love that.

Gundel: Yeah. And for me, I would say, you know, and I’ll give full credit to a former colleague who used to say the work is about feeling better, not, not to feel better, but to feel better.

Mm. You know, it’s like the process of feeling and honing that and being with it and being able to tolerate it. And get comfortable with it is really what this work is about. Yeah.

Kate: I

Gundel: I’m gonna, I’m gonna borrow

Kate: that one. That’s

Eric: good. Thanks. So, so many truth bombs. I, I, I’m gonna have so much processing to do outta this con in a good way, uh, from this conversation.

So thank you to both of you. Uh, we’ll put in all of the show notes, uh, how to contact with you guy, like how to follow you online, how to. Find you if people are interested in, in, uh, reaching out to you. But thank you for taking [00:50:00] the time. Uh, and thank you for listening in Living Richly Nation. We hope this has been an insightful conversation for you doing the work.

Listen, it’s worth the effort. Uh, you can set a whole new tone for your life and take ownership of where your life’s going as opposed to just continue to kind of coast and perhaps, uh, live an unhappy life. It’s all about living richly. That’s why we’re here. Uh, it reminds you to visit our website, living richly.me, where you can find out all the information about the show, all the show notes, and links to both our Facebook group and the, uh, life Vision Challenge, which actually we launched a year ago at this time, which is pretty exciting.

Uh, uh, so you want to avail yourself to that. Uh, keep tuning in. We’re so thankful for your support. Like, follow, subscribe, and get the word out, uh, and we’ll see you next time. Until then, keep living your best life.