Emotional Freedom Starts with an Open Heart with Kelly Flanagan

Emotional Freedom Starts with an Open Heart with Kelly Flanagan

Ep 108 : Kelly Flannagan – Closed Heart
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Kelly: [00:00:00] What most of us want is more connection with our people and then ironically, when we feel like that connection might be tenuous, we close our hearts and disconnect. Oh,

Rob: it is always my default when I’m feeling something and I allow that to flow through and then I say, Oh, that’s interesting. I wonder what that is.

Kelly: If we try to teach kindness with a closed heart, we’ll end up bullying our kids to try to get them to be kind, ironically. Yes. Right. Right. But with an open heart, we’d never run the risk of doing that.

Eric: It’s so in many ways, learning to keep your heart open is probably one of the most valuable skills you can develop, uh, whether you’re an entrepreneur or not to live richly.

Hey nation, and welcome back to the Living Richly podcast. We’re so excited that you’re here and we are pumped about this next show. Uh, we are, have a returning guest. Triple guest. Triple guest, first and only guest that has come back three times on our show, so we assume he still likes us, but you’re going to love him.

Uh, [00:01:00] Kelly Flanagan, uh, great to have you on the show. Oh,

Kelly: thank you. It’s so good to be, I didn’t, yeah, it’s the hat trick. It is a hat trick. You know, on Saturday Night Live, they give guests a special robe when they come on five times. So that’s what I’m aiming for. All right. We need to make it worth that.

We’re on it.

Eric: Uh, producer, can you take a note? So you take a note. We’re going to get you a robe. Uh, but last time you were on the show, Kelly, we’re really looking forward to today’s conversation, but I wanted to take a moment just to honor what happened in that conversation because you’re likely not to know, uh, working on parent guilt has been probably one of my biggest hurdles in recent years.

And, um, something happened in that conversation, something got loosened in me, um, and I can say I’m living mostly parent guilt free, more parent guilt free than ever. That’s all you can ask for. Yeah. I’m so glad to hear that. Yeah. So, uh, again, you’ve, uh, every conversation has been so rich and I know today we’re going to be focusing in on.

Keeping our hearts open. [00:02:00] And this is, uh, uh, tell us a little bit about this subject and how that, uh, kind of became a thing for you.

Kelly: Well, um, I trace it back to, uh, the beginning of COVID. I had, um, at the time completely independently of COVID, um, ended up dissolving my business partnership with my best friend and sadly the part of the, the friendship as well.

Um, COVID hit, you know, I was in the middle of trying to transition, uh, Our therapy practice at the time where we employed four full time therapists, uh, to telehealth in the midst of that sort of chaos, um, super stressed, a couple episodes of back spasms. I finally get healthy enough to get on my bike, um, ticked off at my wife one day for something she says, and I just know I’m not, like, in the right mindset to me riding a bike, and like, Five minutes into an incautious ride, I have to hit the brakes to avoid a car, I go over the handlebars, I shatter my collarbone in [00:03:00] three places, um, it doesn’t heal, um, I’ve got a non union fracture, so I’ve got like a couple extra joints in my collarbone, um, So I’m outta shape at the end of 2020, um, physically, and I’m going and I am thinking about New Year’s resolutions, and I’m literally thinking about like, you know, what I’m gonna do for my, um, physical body.

And, uh, I’m listening to a book called The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer. Oh, so that, so good. So you, you’ve, you’re familiar. Yeah. Um, and it’s the first time I’ve ever listened to it. And, uh, he says, no matter, don’t let anything in your life be important enough that you’re willing to close your heart over it.

Don’t let anything in your life be important enough that you’re willing to close your heart of it And I thought an awful lot of what has happened this year has been painful not because it happened But because I closed my heart to it and and so I made my New Year’s resolution going into 2021 That moment to moment.

I will notice my heart closing and I will try to open it back up Wow [00:04:00] And, you know, I’ve had a lot of New Year’s resolutions over the years, um, haven’t we all, you know, like, well, we’re, you know, here we are recording at the end of January. It’s like most of them are starting to fade. Yeah. Yeah. But this one has really become, I’d call it my, like my core life.

practice my core spiritual discipline, um, moment to moment. I’m still trying to be attentive to my heart closing and opening it back up. And, uh, and what I realized in the midst of trying to do that is that, that while the untethered soul is fantastic and, um, you know, one of the things though that Mickey Singer says, and it again, again, is just when you notice your heart closing, just relax and release it and open back up.

Right. And uh, it doesn’t give a lot of instructions about how to do that. I even know one guy who was like, He wanted instructions so much he went all the way down to Florida to meet Michael Singer and met him face to face and said, how do I open back up? And Michael Singer just said, well, you just do it, you know, uh, yeah, I need a little more.

I need a little more, right. In terms of [00:05:00] more than that. It’s sort of like he’s a math savant who like just gets it so easily doesn’t quite know how to teach it. So, um, the last four years for me has been in the process of me learning to do that, starting to codify the practice for doing it. And that is now what I’m starting to work with people on.

Rob: And you were hinting at this, uh, even the last conversation we had, the last episode that we recorded. You talked about it, you even used a phrase that the, the moment your heart closes, that’s the X on the treasure map. Move. Share a little bit more about that because that, you’ve been, you teased that out and then left us hanging with that for

Eric: all this time.

You were dropping like mic drop moments time after time, so we’re still processing that second conversation, but that was something you definitely teased us with that we are curious about.

Kelly: I didn’t, you know, that’s, first of all, that feels amazing to be remembered in that way, and second of all, um, you know, I hadn’t realized that I was using that analogy that, that early on, [00:06:00] but, um, but yeah, like, the, the idea is that, you know, for those of us who are driven to, um, to become better.

Let’s just call it that to grow, to be transformed, to sort of arrive at a place where we’re showing up as, as we long to show up. There’s so many places we can look to, to do that work. And sometimes it can feel overwhelming. I mean, you can literally spend all day every day, right? Listening to different teachers telling you where to focus your energies in that regard.

And in my experience, what I’ve learned over the last four or five years is that, so when you look at your life, It’s like a map, and there’s thousands of rabbit holes you can go down in order to work on your personal growth. Yes. But there’s one X, and it’s that moment where your heart closes. And everything, everything that you need for your personal growth, And you’re becoming as present in that moment if you can get out the [00:07:00] shovel and start digging for the treasure that is in that, you know, sort of buried beneath that.

Eric: Wow, love that. I just had the image of all of a sudden my personal growth journey, uh, being like a new installment of the Pirates of the Caribbean.

Kelly: See if we can get Johnny Depp to play, play you in the movie.

Eric: But that’s beautiful. We, uh, uh, we’ve talked previously, you know, that we use the four elements when it, uh, we’re referring to sort of being your best self, uh, right?

Like my, uh, water representing the mind. And so your mindset and, uh, uh, disciplined thinking. And, uh, of course, uh, earth represents your physical body. Uh, wind represents your spirit and spirituality. And today we’re really focusing in on the fire element, uh, which is the heart. And, uh, today’s show is not just aimed at our male audience.

We have a lot of male listeners. We have a lot of, a ton of female listeners, but I, I think men have a harder time. When you talk about like closing, I think we live most of our lives pretty, like closed up pretty tight.

Kelly: 100 percent we do. [00:08:00] Um, yeah. So, uh, when I, when I speak of the heart, I’ve, you know, in this way, probably, you know, it’s, it’s clear that I’m not referring to the, uh, you know, that organ in our chest that eats, you know, pumps the blood through if, in fact, if there was a physical comparison, it might be the epiglottis and the throat.

Which is that flap that closes so that food goes down the right pipe and air goes down the right pipe. Right? And it seems that when we encounter experiences in our lives that we don’t want to experience, the heart closes sort of like that epiglottis and says, send it to the stomach, digest it, get it out.

I don’t want to deal with it. Right? And in reality. We are here to respirate, breathe in, and breathe out every experience that comes our way. So what is going on in the experiences where we close our epiglottis, where we close our heart, and how can we learn to open it back up in those situations? There’s a lot of situations we want to experience.

Like, people [00:09:00] say to me, Okay, well, what’s it like when your heart’s open then? I’m like, Oh, that’s easy. You know, like, tell me about something that you really want in life and when you got it and what it felt like. It has your heart naturally opening to what you want. It’s when things aren’t going the way that we want that we really need to be intentional about practicing it.

Rob: All right, Michael Singer, with your, right, uh, so you talk about the importance of recognizing when your heart is closing. How do you recognize when your heart is beginning to close? What are the signs and the symptoms, if you will, uh, for, for me to say, Oh, I am in a place where my heart is beginning to close.

What would be ways that I could tell that that’s happening?

Kelly: Well, that’s what I love about the four elements that you talk about and the ways that you, you talk about them interacting. They’re not like separate systems that are completely unrelated to each other. So In my experience, um, you do want to notice your heart closing as soon as possible, because the sooner you notice it, the easier it is to [00:10:00] open it back up.

We’ve all experienced that, right? Where our heart closes maybe to our wives or whatever. If it’s all the way closed, it could take days, weeks, months to get that heart back open. But if you can catch it before it closes, you actually have a choice. You’ve restored your sense of freedom. And the earliest warning sign that your heart is closing is actually felt in your body.

Um, it’s actually felt somewhere between your, your waist and your temples, um, as an activation of the nervous system. Um, I’ve never heard anybody say my heart closed and my toes cramped. It doesn’t happen. Right? It’s a, it’s a clenching in the gut. It’s a tightening in the chest. It’s a stress up here in the shoulders and the temples and the jaw.

Um, and if we can get really good at noticing those first tremors of that. Now we’ve restored all sorts of sort of degrees of emotional freedom to make a choice about that. Um, and, uh, I think, I would, I would, I would guess we get maybe 80 percent more warning if we can get really good at tuning into our [00:11:00] body.

I love that. I know,

Rob: I know for me one of those. symptoms that I notice is just, is the breathing and, and how my breathing starts to get shortened and, and, uh, you know, and, and that’s usually a sign that, okay, there’s something going on, anxiety or whatever, but there’s something going on that is cause, that is affecting the heart, uh, the, the, the emotions, uh, in that moment with my breath.

Eric: Um, help me and help our, perhaps specifically our male listeners who again, often struggle with, uh, breathing. Uh, with their emotional gear. Um, a lot of the men we speak to, uh, again, we don’t need to get into it all, but they’ve been raised in such a way that it’s like it’s shameful to access that stuff and being a man means you don’t access that stuff.

That’s, that’s for the other, that’s for the other gender, right? Um, what are some examples of things that could happen In day to day life that would cause you to close that you’re hard to close.

Kelly: Give me some examples. Yeah [00:12:00] um, so this is such a great question and One of the things i’m hoping to do with this kind of conversation is to move feelings out of the category of touchy feely sorts of an unnecessary sorts of experiences And into the bodily realm, you know that feelings are things that are happening in your body Um, and so you can either choose to ignore them and let them run you, or you can choose to work with them and, and, and sort of take charge of them.

So hopefully that’s an encouragement to guys. This is just body work. Most of it.

Eric: Yeah.

Kelly: Love that. And, uh, yeah, so it’s a great question. Like what in your life can cause it can trigger that closing. So what’s interesting is that when your heart’s closing and your nervous system is activating, You’re literally having a flight or flight fight or flight response, right?

Right. Um, so That fight or flight response theoretically is reserved for situations in which you are in mortal danger, right? Yeah, and then [00:13:00] your wife tells you why did you leave the toilet seat up again?

Rob: Oh no, oh no, I’m in mortal danger at this point.

Kelly: Yeah, yeah, you, you, your body starts to act like it’s being confronted by a tiger on the street.

Eric: Right? But like, come on, let’s face it, sometimes it feels like you are.

Kelly: Like in that, in that particular situation. Yeah. And we want to slow down around that feeling and explore that a little bit, right? Um. And, uh, and so what you begin to notice is that is how much of our sense of feeling at risk and vulnerable and threatened has to do with threats to our sense of belonging and to the stability of our relationships and how we end up translating our fear of mortal death to it.

Relationship Jeopardy and, uh, and so now, and this is why when I work with couples, we talk about almost nothing except that X on the map. I don’t need to work with you on anything except that moment where you felt like your relationship was in jeopardy [00:14:00] just because she told you to put the seat down or just because, how about like, why did you take this route?

Why did you take this route? Oh! Ha ha ha ha ha ha! Like, I remember an afternoon where I had closed my therapy practice, I was coaching from home. I was so proud of, like, how I’d showed up for the family that afternoon, I’d volunteered to pick up my son from a soccer practice where my wife was gonna do it, and I volunteered to go get him, and I sit down at the kitchen counter while she’s cooking dinner and I say, Hey, can I ask you a question about my book launch coming up?

And she looks at me and she says, Do you ever quit working and like, boom, heart closes, right? Because I just put in a bunch of deposits into the relational bank account and you were supposed to approve of me and that’s the game we’re playing here, right? And you’re not playing by the rules and I’m suddenly feeling like if I don’t have that, I don’t know where I stand with you, right?

So there, anything can trigger it. We use the [00:15:00] body to start to teach us what our triggers are. If, if having,

Eric: keeping our heart open is the right thing to do, and I, uh, again, from an emotional perspective, we often talk about when you’re emotionally sort of, uh, shut down, uh, it’s like living life in black and white instead of living color, right?

Like, you’re missing out on so much, so, uh, like, on the concept of we need to have our hearts open, you’ve got us 100%. We’re on, we’re on board. Yeah,

Kelly: yeah.

Eric: So we know it’s the right thing to do. Thank you. Why is it so hard?

Kelly: Yeah, um, and I appreciate you naming that, that like when your heart’s closed, you’re living inside a very small world.

You’re sort of living in self protective mode. What most of us want is more connection with our people and that ironically when we feel like that connection might be tenuous, we close our hearts and disconnect basically and we’re now we’re in charge of that that disconnection. So I think I think we’ve already started to identify a little bit.

of that. Um, we have a nervous system, [00:16:00] right, that has evolved to keep us safe. We were taught and we learned early on that to be open and to be vulnerable means life gets painful, right? Um, I was just today writing about a scene where I’m like nine years old and my parents have friends For dinner and they’re after dinner and they’re on the front porch and I’m out with the neighborhood kids playing Playing hide and seek and I run up to the guy whose car is in the driveway because I’m looking for a clever hiding spot And I just say sort of innocently like hey, can I hide in the back of your car?

And there’s innocent and exuberant the way a kid is and he looks at me like it’s the most terrible quiz like no, you know, all like, oh, that doesn’t feel good. And so what we learn is sort of the pains of life start to add up is that I don’t want to feel that anymore. Right, you know, I have to touch the stove once and I’m not going to [00:17:00] touch it again.

And so essentially what we’re doing is when we close our hearts is we’re setting ourselves up to be protected from those painful experiences. Um, and, and so, which is also why when our heart closes, we can begin to. You know, people say, I can’t remember a lot from my past. It’s like, you don’t have to remember it with your head.

You’re feeling it in your body in the moment your heart closes. The reason you’re closing to this moment is you know how much it will hurt and you don’t want to go through it again. Right. Um, and so we, that, that is why it is so hard to stay open. We’re actually, by keeping our hearts open, we’re, we’re saying, I’m willing to go through something hard.

And everything else has conditioned us not to do that.

Eric: Right, right. It’s the classic, it sounds like the classic, right? The very walls we built to protect ourselves become the prison that we We live in, right? We shut ourselves down to, uh, to your point, uh, avoid harm, further harm or pain, uh, but then we’re trapped.

We really are [00:18:00] trapped, it seems.

Kelly: Well, and I know for you guys, the, the, um, the true self versus false self, or the soul versus ego, um, concept has been really helpful. So, in a way, what you could say is when you feel your heart close, You’re getting the bodily sensation of your ego jumping into active duty for you.

And at that, at that point, you’re, you like, like people, people have asked me for years, like, well, how do I know when my ego is activated? You can feel it in your body and now you get to work with it. And, and the act of opening your heart is the act of inviting your ego to stand down so that your true self can come out and play again.

It’s interesting. Love that.

Rob: You know, um, we have, uh, of course, we all have our superscripts. We all have scripts, these, these limiting beliefs. We have our superscripts, uh, that maybe we’ve held on to for, uh, for many years. Uh, I’ve shared my story a number of times, uh, it just happens. It’s very reflective day for me.

Today’s the anniversary of my daughter’s passing, uh, and, uh, and what I went through when she [00:19:00] died. She was seven months old when she passed away. But I remember one, and for many years, my superscript was everyone close. to me leaves. And so to your point about the heart closing for, I think up until maybe, I mean, this was, you know, uh, 20 plus years ago, 25 plus years ago.

It really has only been in the last two, three years that I have recognized that script and begun to reverse the power of it, to rewrite the script and say, well, actually one, that’s not true. I have all kinds of people in my life whom I love and who love me, who are committed to me longterm. I’m here, buddy.

I’m still here. Great. And, and I have people I love.

See what I have to put up with? I

Eric: think my heart just closed a little bit there.

Rob: What, what, what, what would you say to that, Kelly? And recognizing that oftentimes the heart closing, we see it, whether it’s, and of course I know the fallacy in this, but we [00:20:00] see it as almost a protective mode. Because it’s easier or safer to just close than to feel.

Kelly: I mean, I think you’re right on. So, um, So, what we talk about is we talk about recognizing that your heart is closing so you can give yourself some chance to work with it before you start, you know, reacting with it. Um, it’s essential to get your nervous system calm before you start to engage other people.

A lot of times we, when, when that heart closes, we jump into trying to connect with people in order to get it open and in order to get ourselves calm. And I think we all know how that goes. We’re not at our best in that moment. So, um, so we try to reverse that. We try to calm ourselves before we connect ourselves, but then, then we start to get into the, to the inner work that you’re getting at there, um, that a lot of times we think That when our heart closes and our defenses shoot up with people, we’re trying to keep new pain from getting in.

Well, as a lot of times, we’re just really trying to keep old pain from coming up. Getting old, yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah. [00:21:00] And, and so to do the inner work to start to tune in to what that pain is, I’ll often say, okay, it’s time to shift the conversation from the conversation between you and other people to the conversation with your pain point.

It’s time to start to get more familiar with the pain point that you walk around protecting all the time and, and The nice thing about that is it usually is only a handful of pain points. It’s not this complex inner sort of landscape. It’s one or two things you’re not wanting to feel over and over again that you’re protecting.

Eric: Right. Right. Yeah, you, uh, on the last show, you blew our minds. Uh, I had talked about going through, you know, living most of my adult life with a really harsh inner critic. Um, and, and really, uh, cruel actually, uh, to myself for, for so long. And part of my journey, I remember saying to you on the show, well, you know, I finally came to the place where I fired him.

Right. Yeah. Uh, to which you responded and said, well, he said like, and, and you talked about how the inner critic in many ways is that wounded version of yourself, [00:22:00] younger version of yourself, and how, uh, when we try to, Get rid of the inner critic or maybe the ego. I don’t know if these things are related.

Um, and I’m curious to see what you think about it. But you said it’s like you’re re rejecting yourself all over again. And that was a, that was a mic drop moment for me. It really, uh, I’ve even gone back and clients have said, yeah, I’ve fired my inner critic. I said, well, I’ve got a different perspective for you now.

All: Uh,

Eric: I’ve kind of changed my mind on that. You want to work. with that and not reject it, but is that is when you talked about the ego state a moment ago, like that, when you feel it in the body, that’s ego stepping in at full attention to try to protect you. Are we talking about the same thing here?

Kelly: We are.

So, um, I’m, I’m, I’m happy to announce that tomorrow afternoon I will be inducted into my high school’s athletic hall of fame. Whoa. Yes. So

Eric: this is different than the soccer prize you talked about last time.

Kelly: This is different than that. Yeah, this is a different sport entirely. State, state qualifying golf team.

Yeah. Um, [00:23:00] so several, several months ago, I got an email along with the other guys on the team that we were getting inducted into this thing. And, uh, I, um, So, a little bit of backstory. My senior year, I was integral to our golf team. Um, I, uh, you know, was top four player, scores counted all the time. Uh, co MVP, we went to state, placed seventh.

My junior year, we placed fourth in state. Um, but I was the seventh man, I never played a single match. Well, they send out this announcement that we’re in the Hall of Fame. And, uh, and I’m included on it, along with the six guys who played. Uh, and, unbeknownst to me, this began to trigger. Some deep insecurity that I wasn’t really paying attention to.

I just knew that for the rest of the day in my coaching appointments It was really hard to feel like I knew what I was talking about. I walk upstairs I’m still unsure of what’s going on. I walk upstairs at the end of my day. I had [00:24:00] texted my wife the news She says oh, so your senior team is getting inducted into the Hall of Fame, huh?

I was like, no, it’s the junior team She’s like I didn’t think you even played on that one And, and I could feel my heart close even more. I got snappy back. Right. And then for the rest of the night into the next morning, I noticed that like, I have these, this rapid fire sort of shame driven spiral of thoughts about how I should reply to the emails and how I should show up to this group and not reply.

It feels really regressive, right? And in the past, I might have said, Dude, shame spiral, man. Limiting beliefs, get rid of it. You know, overcome it. Instead, I woke up early the next morning, created some space, and I had this awareness that I don’t have to remember what it was like to be 17 years old because I’m actually living in my 17 year old mind and body right now.

What it was like to feel like I didn’t quite belong to that group, I was sort of a [00:25:00] tag along, I was the little brother annoying the older brothers, um, to sort of live in that state. I was like, man, I don’t have, I get, I can actually. Interact with my 17 year old self right now because he’s here in the form of my nervous system and my thoughts And there was this great and my reaction was like I said, I just said to him I had the conversation right then there It’s like dude, you lived like this all the time.

Didn’t you? Yeah, that must have been Torture. Nobody else knew that you were walking around afraid like this all the time, that you would never belong, that you’d never find your people. Yeah, it was pretty hard. And so this tremendous sense of tenderness actually started to come in for that sort of shame filled part of me.

And uh, and I, I said, I did a little bit of crying. Let, let that, let, let that part of me feel the sadness he’d been carrying around for, I 30 plus years now. Yeah. And uh, And then we moved on and I didn’t feel it anymore. [00:26:00] Wow.

Rob: So then how are you, uh, in that conversation? Now you’re saying this is happening tomorrow.

Yeah. And so talk about how you’re showing up tomorrow.

Kelly: Yeah. It’s a great, so, um, I’m in the shower last night and, uh, I catch myself. Rehearsing some things. I’m gonna say when I meet the guys. Yes, right and And so it’s like in that moment another another temptation is to banish those younger parts of us that carry our shame, right?

But more and more I sort of think of those younger parts of us as like the rings of a tree, you know and each year Represents one of the rings of us and a tree doesn’t become a tree by getting rid of its rings or fixing its bad rings, you know, or anything like that. It just, it just has its rings and they make up the whole and so I was like, okay, here’s ring number 17 here in the shower.

Rehearsing how to keep himself safe and protected, you know, in this, in this situation tomorrow. [00:27:00] And in that moment, my reaction isn’t, I gotta fix you before tomorrow so I can show up. It’s, we’re doing this together tomorrow.

All: We

Kelly: are. Uh, you and I, we’re gonna walk through this together tomorrow. We’ll sort this out.

Um, it’s gonna be interesting. Let’s do it, let’s do it together. Um, so that’s sort of the approach that I, I take these days.

Eric: I, I love that. And every ring makes you stronger. Right. Every every makes you more resilient. Uh, um, that’s just so powerful. I love this concept of X marks the spot. If I can use that language.

Yeah, of course. Because I think a lot of folks on a personal development journey sometimes don’t know where to begin. Um, and this, and I think sometimes in our personal growth journey, um, we can be growing while avoiding, we can be evolving while not dealing with the stuff that’s actually. The most important stuff.

And, and I get that sometimes it’s like David and Goliath, you know, you don’t start with the giant, you start with the bear, you start with the lion, but which to me are still a [00:28:00] pretty big deal. Killing a lion, killing a bear is no small deal, but he worked himself up to that. And so sometimes we are working in other areas of our lives that feel less threatening.

Where we feel perhaps a little bit less vulnerable and we build, we, we gain the skills and we build the tools to then, um, go after those bigger, uh, areas of hurt and pain. Uh, but I love how that brings focus to like, you’re, you’re actually, your greatest opportunity for growth is where X, the X on the treasure map.

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for pointing that out. So your heart closes and most of us when we’re in that sort of growth oriented mindset, we see that as a setback, right? And so then we go, well, I got to go strengthen myself over here so that closing thing doesn’t happen anymore. So we actually go away from the moment rather than going, no, no, no, no, this is, this is it.

Like this is where all the work is. And when I see people make that transition to like their heart closes and they go, okay, Now we’re going to sort some things out here. Now we’re going to learn how to [00:29:00] love ourselves more. Now we’re going to learn how to be more vulnerable and more open to our life and more free with how we show up.

Like that’s, that’s the game changer. Yeah. When you don’t go away from it, for sure.

Eric: Wow. You, you’ve already mentioned a couple of things like, um, creating space, uh, especially maybe not trying to fix things in the moment because often in doing that, we make things worse, uh, because we’re emotional, we’re fragile in those moments and we’re not thinking at our, at our best, right?

Um, what are some other strategies that you’re finding very useful, uh, to work through it, whether it be in the moment or after the moment when you’ve created some space, what are some tool strategies that our listeners could use? To get better at keeping their heart open when it’s closing.

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, that’s a great question So I think in, in this, um, sort of follows on from what you just said about the temptation to, to try to grow around these moments rather than grow through these moments.

Um, [00:30:00] so classic example of that is my heart’s closing or I’m stressed or I’m anxious. So I’m going to do some relaxation breathing. Or I’m going to do some mindfulness meditation so that I feel peaceful. And again, it’s the same principle. I’m trying to get rid of the experience. I’m resisting the experience.

This is why so many people have such a hard time with these sorts of practices. Is, uh, they’re not designed, actually, to help us resist something. They’re designed to help us accept an experience. Right. So, an exercise that I’ll walk people through, I call it the Margin for Terror exercise.

Eric: Margin for Terror!

Kelly: Yes. Margin, instead of margin for error, margin for tenor.

Eric: I love that.

Kelly: And the idea is that, uh, I’ll help them locate the place where they’re feeling the stress of that closing the most in their body. Um, we’ll come, we’ll make our first step toward it instead of away from it by putting our hand right over it, sort of pressing firmly down on it.

Second step toward it is to visualize what that looks [00:31:00] like in there. What color is it? What size is it? What’s different? shape is it? Does it move or is it static? Is it hot or warm, light or heavy? And they really flesh out, like let themselves imagine what that, that feeling looks like in there. And then we start a breathing exercise where we first at first just breathe normally, and then we’ll breathe into the space around that feeling.

They’ll actually visualize that space expanding as they breathe in. And then they’ll release the breath and the space will disappear. And we’ll do that a number of times. And then I’ll say, on the next in breath, I want you to breathe in. And when you breathe out, just let a little bit of space remain around that feeling.

Right? And we’ll do that for a while. And then I’ll say, when you feel like you’ve got enough spaciousness around that feeling, That you can coexist with it and you don’t need to get rid of it, let me know. And now we’re ready to start engaging with it.

All: Yeah.

Kelly: Um, so, so the, it’s not so much a calming exercise as a, uh, sort of coming alongside exercise.

Learn how to be with the feeling so you can [00:32:00] start to work with it.

Rob: I almost suggested, hey, let’s do this exercise. And I’m like, no, I’ll be a mess the rest of the day. Um, we’ll do it after. Yeah, we’ll do it after. But I do, what I’m hearing in that, and again, I, I’m actually hearing some of your language from Lovable, uh, in how you’re, where you’re going with this.

And, and I, so right away the thought went through my mind around kind of the, the evolution of, Kelly’s thinking of, of, as you’ve moved along from these, the obviously, or the, um, most earliest, I’m assuming would be the blog, uh, and then which translated into the book. And now you’ve had a number of books and you’re coming into now where you’re writing this one, uh, Do they, is there that evolution that’s been flowing in this thinking?

Kelly: Yeah, definitely. I think, um, you know, for me, if my, if my creative expression isn’t sort of a reflection of where [00:33:00] I’m at in the journey, you know, it’s probably not going to resonate with anybody else. So, yeah, I think the blog at first was, it began as like a, A celebration of the fact that I wasn’t feeling as ashamed and didn’t need to keep myself as sort of hidden from everybody Um that evolved into sort of an elaborated sense of how the personal journey works from worthiness through belonging and into purpose Then as I say at the beginning of true companions, I felt my shame diminishing dramatically, but my loneliness wasn’t and so true companions in a way was like What is this loneliness thing?

And oh, my goodness, it’s just part and parcel with being human, right? We’re not going to get rid of it,

All: right?

Kelly: Um, we’re going to need to learn what to do with it in relationship. And, uh, and then that, uh, sort of translated into. Okay, so now that I’m now that now that I. I feel like I’ve got a sense of this shame and loneliness thing.

How do [00:34:00] we actually work with it in the moments that matter most in our lives? And, and so now you come to this, this practice of openheartedness.

Eric: Yeah, I absolutely love that. Now, uh, I know that you work with entrepreneurs, you coach entrepreneurs, and that’s our business as well. We work with, uh, business leaders, entrepreneurs at all stages.

Um, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs, one of the things they have in common is, uh, uh, show me the money. What’s the result, what’s the outcome, and how can I get to it as fast as possible? So if X marks the spot where the treasure

Kelly: is, what’s the treasure? Mmm, so good. Um, well, the treasure is retaining half of their wealth to begin with, um, because they’re not gonna get divorced.

Hahaha!

Rob: I

Kelly: mean Let’s speak the language of the entrepreneur to begin with.

Rob: Okay, best answer ever.

Kelly: It’s, uh, it’s true though. It is so true. Right, it is true. And the, the, the [00:35:00] second, the deeper dimension to what the entrepreneur cares most about is, and people don’t realize this, entrepreneurs don’t. Really primarily care about money.

They they want the freedom that money is going to bring them right right the financial freedom that brings Personal freedom to how they spend their time and the reality is every moment your heart is closed. You’re not free Wow, every moment your heart is closed. You’re not free freedom Is only experienced with an open heart.

And, and so if an entrepreneur is going around and they’ve worked so hard, right, to produce even financial freedom, they’ve gotten, they’ve gotten out of the rat race, they’ve got, they’ve got passive revenue, and then, uh, 80 percent of the time when they’re with their people, their heart is closed. Um, it was all for not, it was all for not.

And so we want to, to restore to them the capacity to feel internally free, even when they’re financially free.

Rob: It’s, and that resonates so much. We hear it all the time where you have these entrepreneurs that have, [00:36:00] that, that are successful. They’ve had incredibly successful companies. They’ve done incredible things.

feel so empty. They feel like, is this, it’s the whole reason why we really launched living richly was to really respond to that with many of our clients.

Eric: Yeah. Cause we had here, we had, uh, business owners and entrepreneurs coming at, uh, coming to us to say, help me fix my business, help me. Fix my team, help me fix my leadership, uh, and then within two or three conversations, you know, my marriage is falling apart, my teenage kid is strung out on drugs, and, uh, I think I’m burnt out or in full on depression, and they’re opening up about all these These challenges, uh, but these are people that the vast majority of human beings would look at and say you’re highly successful, highly favored, you’re doing really well, you’ve got most of what we would describe as the, uh, the trappings of success, uh, you’ve got all that stuff, but you’re dying inside.

Kelly: That’s it. Well, and we know, regardless [00:37:00] of sort of what level you’re playing at income or revenue wise, we know that for most human beings, there comes a moment where they hit that number that they thought would generate a sense of personal satisfaction and peace, and it doesn’t do it. Right. And, and that’s how we create midlife crises, is we double down on our method for finding satisfaction.

The reality is, in the second half of life for everybody, satisfaction is found in deep connection. with the people we value the most. Um, and so once again, if your heart is closed and, uh, and, and then you show up to that moment, you’re not connected. You’re going to feel empty. You’re going to feel like, uh, like, like your life is unfulfilled.

And so we want to help, um, we want to help everyone get to the point where when they realize that connection is really what they’re here for. They actually have the capacity to do it rather than reflexively closing over and over again.

Eric: So in many ways, learning to keep your heart open is probably one of the most valuable skills you can develop, uh, whether you’re an [00:38:00] entrepreneur or not, to live richly.

To live a rich life, to live a fulfilling life, a meaningful life. Um, we, it’s, it’s interesting. We just did a show on staying open, but it was more about curiosity and being open to the, how the world can surprise you and yet how a closed mindset or a closed, like I’m convinced I’ve got it all, or I know it all.

Well, you can’t you can’t evolve in that state.

Kelly: Well, yeah, and you’re right on it like that the I think of the three Hallmarks of an open heart has the capacity to collaborate be curious and be compassionate And so curiosity is right there curiosity is The natural way of relating to the unknown when our heart is open, uh, when our hearts close, the way we relate to the unknown is to protect and try to control.

Right, right. But when it’s open, we, we can be vulnerable and be curious. Yep. Yeah, I love that.

Rob: We do a lot of work around, uh, developing and building a core values, uh, and encouraging people to have their own [00:39:00] personal conversation. Um, uh, values and defining what those are, your purpose statement, uh, your manifesto, if you will, for your life.

Um, I, I, I’m interested if, if you see a correlation between how people define their values and, uh, how often the def of what they pull out as being their main values, uh, can be traced back to some of those X spots. Uh, is there a correlation? ’cause I, here’s what I’m thinking is, I know for me. One of my core values is community, which was, is very much a part.

When I look at my story in my life was a, was something that was lacking. I shared about my daughter, Katie, how that’s a moment where I lost and closed. Uh, but oftentimes, and then the script was everyone leaves, which is the opposite of community, right? So is there a correlation or am I reading into that too much?

Kelly: No, I think you’re right on it. And so I love talking to you guys, challenges my thinking. [00:40:00] Oh, great. Uh, yeah, no, I think, so what I’ve never thought about that, but one of the questions that just came to mind is, uh, the question would be, um, how, how is this value a solution to some part of your pain? And, and, and, and what that means is that the value won’t change.

All: Um,

Kelly: but it will open up the possibility of pursuing that value with greater clarity and with more of an open heart so that it can actually address some of that, that pain. Whereas if we stay a little too heady about it, we could stay like in protection mode while pursuing the community that’s trying to solve our pain of loneliness.

And then we multiply the problem rather than solving it.

Eric: A hundred percent. It’s like we’re, we’re, we’re seeking. Uh, we’re we’re valuing something that’s been missing something that we desperately want. Uh, but often in the language of core [00:41:00] values, we say when you talk about a core value, it’s something that’s present in your life.

Yes. Uh, it’s something that expresses your, your, your true nature. And so if it’s aspirational, it’s okay to aspire to something, but when it’s aspirational, it’s not core, right? And so it’s, it’s a, I think you’re reaching. You’re reaching for something, maybe you’re, you’re, you’re, uh, not able to quite fully embrace because of brokenness in your life that you haven’t addressed.

Close heartedness, if I can use that language.

Kelly: Absolutely. So, I remember my wife and I, when we were pregnant with our first many years ago, um, we took a parenting class and one of the things we were prompted to do is to develop our, our values for our, our family and our kids. And both of us agreed, thankfully, that our core value is that we wanted to raise children who were kind.

Kind children, you know, and if I knowing what I know now, if I was talking to those that young, almost still a newlywed couple, I’d be like, any chance the two of you were bullied when you were growing [00:42:00] up? That that’s the first value that jumps to you? And we’d be like, Oh, yeah. I didn’t even, didn’t even think of that.

You know, um, we want to raise children who don’t hurt other people in the way we were hurt. Um, and if we can, if we can live with the consciousness of that, now we are going to teach that value with a totally different level of tenderness and care and openness than if we just said, you know, I mean, if, if we, if we try to teach kindness with a closed heart, we’ll end up bullying our kids to try to get them to be kind, ironically.

Right. Right. But with an open heart, we’d never run the risk of doing that.

Eric: Okay, let me ask you a question here. There’s, um, I, I know in my journey, uh, I was a young leader, like, and way over my head. I, I didn’t have the tools. Um, I had the, what was necessary in that world to be successful, I could, I could preach, I could sing, I could, uh, connect with people, um, made people feel safe, but I, I didn’t even [00:43:00] have a fully formed frontal lobe when I was the senior leader of a church that I planted and, and led for 15 years, and, um, By my mid twenties, I’m already saying, Okay, uh, this isn’t working.

Like, there’s some gear that is There’s just some broken shit here that I can’t I don’t know what to do with. And it took me becoming vulnerable and reaching out for help. But that’s a scary thing, because I’ll tell ya, for every person that received me with grace and compassion, um, there were negative experiences that made me regret.

Trying to open my heart in those moments, uh, so, so what would you say to someone who, uh, wants to open their heart, but they feel too vulnerable and too scared to do it?

Kelly: Yeah, I mean, uh, the, my first answer would be, um, give yourself the grace to go at the pace that you need to go at. Love [00:44:00] that. Opening your heart isn’t a sprint, right?

It’s a, it’s a marathon. It’s a lifelong walk. Um, and, uh, Start, start with the people who you feel safest with, um, start in small increments, you know, like it’s a, start with the barista at Starbucks who, you know, acts like you’re a moron for wanting half sweet cold foam, you know, is that a thing, half sweet cold foam, is that, that’s a thing?

I’m told it’s a thing. It’s sweet to me. I don’t know. Um, and, uh, and so, you know, start there. She, uh, she acts in a way that triggers some rejection pain in you. And so you go about mentally starting to close your heart and then mentally rejecting her. Right? Um, start, start on those, just begin to notice the ebb and flow.

And, uh, and then give yourself permission to work your way up to greater degrees of difficulty. [00:45:00]

Eric: Yeah. It’s like going to the gym. If you haven’t been for a while or you’ve never been, you’re not going to walk up to the bench and say, yeah, I’m gonna, I’m gonna bench 250 pounds. Like you don’t start there.

You start small, you start with getting your mobility, you start with some. Uh, lighter weights and you work your way up to the heavier stuff.

Kelly: Is that what I’m? You’re constantly using your body as feedback about how fast you can go. You know? So like, um, keep in mind it would be, um, you will never be successful opening your heart while your nervous system is still triggered.

Your, your lower brain is telling you you’re in danger. And so to open your heart when you’re in danger is foolish. Right. And so don’t think about opening your heart till you can get your body calm. Um, and then you start to have some sort of degrees of freedom with how much you’re going to open your heart.

But try to do it before that and you’re just going to be fighting, fighting your nature.

Eric: I love that. My teenage son recently helped me understand this. Uh, so he struggles with anxiety and Uh, he’s working his way through it very [00:46:00] courageously, and he’s in therapy, and he’s getting the support that he needs.

Uh, but one day, he was having a rough time, and, uh, he said something to me, and I tried to provide some guidance, some counsel. Not try to fix it, just provide him some encouragement, like Uh, that might be useful in the moment. And he stopped me. He said, dad, that’s really good advice. I can’t take that in right now.

And we had, we had a follow up conversation to that. Cause they think he, in some ways, and I, as soon as he said, I said, I totally get it, whatever you need, just let me know. Um, and then we had a follow up conversation about a week later and he says, listen, I want you to know like I, that advice was really valuable.

He says, but in, in when I’m, I’m in that moment, dad, I can’t, I just can’t. Like my I’m spiraling and I need to learn how to calm like so such great advice to hear you Well,

Rob: and and go ahead Kelly

Kelly: I was gonna say one of my favorite quotes that I’m sure isn’t new but I came across it last year my favorite quotes of The year is the the right answer at the wrong [00:47:00] time is still the wrong answer Which is what he was sort of telling you at that point And yeah, the an open heart at the wrong time isn’t gonna open, you know, it’s uh, you’re fighting too much biology

Rob: Yeah, as yours as you were sharing and even as yours Telling that story, I, my mind went back to Untethered Soul and the idea of how he talks about how you analyze and allow emotion to feelings to flow through you, right?

That you have to allow that, that to flow through you before you could, now you can look at it. And I don’t know if he uses this language or it’s become my language, though. It is always my default when I’m feeling something and I allow that to flow through. And then I say, well, that’s interesting. I wonder what that is.

And again, I don’t know if that’s the exact language he uses or if I’ve just taken it from that, but that seems to be, uh, goes along with what you’re saying there about how you need to allow that to come through before you can now focus in on what it is.

Kelly: It’s interesting. Yeah, you’re exactly right. He talks about how emotions are [00:48:00] energy.

Energy has to move. If you block it, it’s just going to move in circles down there and you’re going to feel. terrible inside and, um, and I, I think it’s really powerful how we say, let’s take sadness for instance, we say, uh, we push it down, right? Um, is that just a saying or is it actually capturing something real about how emotions move through the body?

And I think it does, you know, I think sadness starts real low. And it moves up and when it gets to about our chest, that is when we block it. We close our heart. We go, I don’t want to feel sadness today. And a lot of what we experience of anxiety is the collision of these two energies, our sadness, trying to come up and our psyche, trying to push it back down.

And now we got a mess going on in our chest. Right. Um, I was at a breathing, uh, sort of breathwork event and. You could hear guys, their sadness was coming up and out, you know, it comes, that’s how, that’s the path, right? Yeah. You know, throat, back of the eyes, out the eyes, always comes out as tears. And one guy was like, man, I couldn’t get it out.

And, uh, the, the guide was, uh, smart enough [00:49:00] to say, how high did you get it? And he said, I got it like here, like a real huge lump in my throat, I could barely swallow. And the guide said, have you ever gotten it that high before? Yeah. And the gentleman said, no. And he’s like, good job. You got a faster chest.

Maybe next time you’ll get it higher. Right. And so, yeah, so our, our, our emotions, any emotion is supposed to be flowing up and out and, uh, and anything we do to block it is just, uh, creating more work for us later. Basically, a

Eric: hundred percent. I love this. I, I, I feel every time we get on these, into these conversations with you, the conversations could last for hours.

Um, right. Because they’re just so rich, uh, uh, no, our commitment to get you that robe. So we’re definitely having you back, uh, right. But, but final question for today. And, uh, you’ve given us so much to think about our listeners so much to think about, but what advice. Would you give to someone who feels like they’re all, they’re defaulting, their default is to shut down in those hard moments.

Oh

Kelly: man, I’d say [00:50:00] that’s, uh, uh, normal, um, that’s all of us, um, in fact, the way you define a hard moment, I would say, the way you define a hard moment is do you shut down to it. Um, so your hard moment might look different than mine. We might shut down to different things and in different situations, but like that’s by the definition is.

It’s hard to keep my heart open to this. It’s hard to experience it. It’s hard to participate with it. Um, and so, uh, so, yeah, um, that’s normal. And now, you know, where to do the work is in that hard moment.

Rob: So good. I, I, I know, uh, Eric’s about to land this plane. Um, so, uh, some of our listeners, I’m sure they, they’re hearing you continually mention about your, Writing a manuscript, uh, there’s a, there’s a book coming out.

Uh, when can we pre order? When’s it ready to, when’s it going to be ready for release? I want a signed copy. When, when, when, when can we anticipate, uh, the next Kelly Flanagan, uh, [00:51:00] uh, book, uh,

Kelly: to be released? Well, you guys have been kind enough to catch me early in the. The whole cycle. Um, so the tentative publication date is March 3rd, 2026.

So we got a ways to go. Um, and in the meantime, this, this little, uh, H up here is the symbol for my sub stack, uh, which is humaning with Dr. Kelly Flanagan. So if people are wanting to sort of. Stay up to date on when that book’s coming out. Uh, drkellyflanagan. substack. com is the place to go. And, uh, right now I’m actually on hiatus from posting.

So if you don’t love a ton of emails, you’re not going to get them from me. Um, I’m finishing the manuscript and then in March I’ll resume my once a, once a week on Wednesday morning, I get all your emails and I love them when I get them.

Eric: Absolutely. Well, we’re going to add all your resources to the show notes.

Links to your books, links to your sub stack. Uh, we’re big fans of yours, brother. And we count you not just as a guest. We feel like you’re a friend. Um, and the conversations are always [00:52:00] so rich and, uh, so grateful that you’re willing to take the time, uh, to not only. Invest in us, but invest in this movement and, and our listeners and their lives.

So thank you for being on the show. Thank you. Uh, just amazing to have you back here today.

Kelly: Yeah, man, it’s an honor to support what you guys are doing in the world. Maybe the fifth episode we could do in person.

Eric: Oh, that’s a commitment. We’re gonna, we’re gonna either fly outta the

Kelly: row, give ’em the rope, we gotta give him the robe.

We just can’t, we can’t sell that shit over. Well, if you make, I tell you what, if you make that happen, I’ll bring the robe. Ah, . How narcissistic is that? I’m gonna

All: bring

Kelly: my own

All: robe,

Kelly: right? Bring my own robe. I’ll bring a

Eric: crown too. Amazing. Thank you so much for being on the show, Kelly. And thank you, Nation, for tuning in to another episode of the Living Richly podcast.

Wow. What a conversation. Keeping your heart open, even when it’s closing. Um, is, is the source of growth. The X really, truly marks the spot. So, thanks for tuning in. We encourage you to visit our website, [00:53:00] livingrichly. me. You can find all kinds of resources there. Past episodes, we’ll have the show notes for today’s show.

You can find out about the 15 Day Life Vision Challenge. You can also find out about our exclusive Facebook community, uh, where hundreds and hundreds of people are gathered, uh, on a similar journey that you’re on. And you can, uh, join a great community. So, thanks for tuning in. And until next time, get out there and live your best life.

 

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