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You’ll hear us talk about how the elements connect and affect one another. 

Episode 14: Wind – An Empowered Spirit

How much of our behavior is to withdraw and disconnect when we feel uncomfortable, when what we seek most is in connection?      

Rob Dale, Eric Deschamps, Trefor Munn-Venn

Hi, and welcome to the Living Richly Podcast. My name is Rob Dale and I’m here with my incredibly wonderful friends, Eric Deschamps and Trefor Munn-Venn. He wants something. All my radar just went up, . Right. Uh, that’s just a make up for, uh, what I said about your last episode. Very demeaning. Yes. And what I will say about you next episode.

Yes. Welcome, and it’s so great to have you on the journey with us. Uh, in fact, I’m so grateful that you’re here. Uh, it just means I’m not alone with these two , uh, as we continue our conversations around living, uh, the most richest fullest, best version of ourselves and experiencing what that means in the Living Richly Podcast.

Uh, and, uh, we have been talking about. The core elements. Four elements. Four elements, sorry. Yes. But you could call them core elements. They’re core element. Our core, but there are four elements. Thanks for Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The four elements. Uh, I will go back and watch, uh, a previous episode. We’ll put it in the show links where we explain what those, uh, four elements are so that I get the wording right.

Uh, and encourage you to do as, as well as we, uh, give a just a little bit of a description of each of the elements and why. We are including this idea of, uh, the four elements in our, uh, talk about living richly, right? Uh, the four elements being water, which represents the mind. Uh, we’ve got fire, which represents the heart.

Today we’re gonna talk about wind, which represents spirit. Uh, and then in the next episode we’ll talk about Earth, which represents the body. Uh, so. Of all of, well, I, I was about to use a, we would talk often about scripts, we talk about, you know, element, you know, these things. I was about to say, of all of the elements, this is probably the one that’s most difficult for people to, uh, to kind of process or digest that might be more difficult for us.

Well, or Yeah, exactly. That might be more of a script that I’m telling, because for some people this is an easy entry. Uh, right point is, is the spirit. Uh, but let’s talk a little bit. Spirituality, uh, as we’ve done with the other, uh, the, the, the two that we’ve, we’ve discussed already as we’ll be doing with, with all four of these, uh, elements.

Maybe just a little bit around what do we mean when we talk about spirituality? What is spirituality? What is it not? Uh, and then we can ask the question of why, why is that matter? Why is it a part of the living richly? So, so two X preachers, what is spirituality? What is spirituality? What is spirituality?

Uh, well again, and we, we, if I can just, uh, add to the introduction that, uh, why we believe the four elements are such a powerful model is that they go back thousands of years. Yeah. Um, and, and so, uh, people throughout history have turned to them as a kind of a foundational, uh, Uh, piece. And, and for us, as we were discovering and asking the question about what it meant to live our richest life, um, this became sort of a model that we used to say, well, I wonder what my mind at its best would look like.

My heart at its best, my spirit fully alive, uh, my body at its best. Um, beginning to paint that picture of a preferr. Future for ourselves, right? That we start moving towards and, and today we just happen to be on, uh, the wind element, which is, uh, spirit, uh, and soul. Um, what is spirituality? I think all I can speak to is I think what it is, uh, to me, and I think that’s all any of us can do.

We, we are very conscious of the fact that this is a, again, a topic that, uh, can be uncomfortable for some, only because perhaps they haven’t explored it much or they have very, very strong. Feelings and opinions about what that’s meant to be and, and in some cases even what it should be for, for other people.

Uh, and that’s certainly an environment that, that, uh, that all three of us can speak to, I think, uh, in, in one way, uh, or another. But, uh, um, I’d love to hear like what, uh, you, you opened up the show you often. I love how you, uh, answer your own question, answer your own question. Dammit. Uh, , that was a good redirect, Eric, by the way, right?

Yeah. Well done. Well, it’s a, it’s a great, the, the host gets to kind of ask the questions and then, and just sit back and sit back and just, just take it in. So how about we just turn the hot seat around and, and, uh, you know, it is, it is interesting because when we think of the four elements, when I, as I, you know, quickly outline them, and then you’ve given a bit more descriptive around them, uh, Very few people when we talk about the mind, I think everybody understands and get, we, there might be some debate or when, you know, if you listen to that episode, we talk about the power of the mind to be able to, whether it’s to heal or to all of the other things that we talk about.

Uh, you can debate some of that stuff, but I think everybody generally, you know, mindset Yeah. Mindset’s important. We get that and that’s important. Uh, heart we understand as well. We need. You know, uh, uh, embrace our emotions or understand our emotions and relationships are important. I think people can understand that.

And certainly when we get into body, you may have different approaches to how you approach nutrition and health, health and all of that, but I think everybody recognizes, yeah, I mean, if the option is be a healthy person or be an unhealthy person, the, you know, it’s probably better to be a healthy person, right?

This one is the interest, and I think that why, why spirit can be a loaded one is, is you, you kind of alluded to it. It’s either a real black and white kind of, it is clear your dogma holds your right and every other spiritual idea is wrong. Uh, or it’s, you know, uh, everybody just needs to get along with whatever.

Uh, or I never really thought of it, but even when you say, well, but now that I’m asking you about it, what do you think you have? You have an opinion even when you haven’t thought about. Mm-hmm. it, and it might be, while it’s irrelevant, that might be your opinion, but you still, you know, so I think there’s a wide range of, of ideas and certainly of all of the elements, This is the one that I would’ve struggled with and kind of went, eh, I don’t wanna deal with this one.

I don’t like this one. Because of my past and because of, you know, us coming out of the world. But certainly for me, there was a lot of of struggle that when I, when I left the church world, uh, and I really actually for for many years, identified myself as athe. Uh, at best agnostic. Uh, I, I, I, now I’m free because I don’t really worry about any of those terminology at all.

Like, right. Uh, I know that I’m connected. I know that there is some kind of a, uh, a spiritual, there, there is some element, whatever that is. The force is probably my favorite way to use it. Always. One, I’m Jedi just because I’m a heat who, who hasn’t, uh, you know, but the notion of, of the, the, the idea that all energy.

Energy is all around us. It’s through us. It’s, we are connected. Uh, I believe we’re connected to all of the, uh, living elements of our planet. Uh, how that plays out, uh, can be different. And, and for me, it changes on a pretty regular basis as to how I express this. I’ve been using, the language I’ve been using the most in the last couple of months is the, the language of the universe.

And I know that, uh, you know, Wendy and I, a number of the things that have happened in our relationship over the last couple of months, we are constantly talking about, boy, the universe just made, you know, aligned that. Right. Uh, and some of them would be, and I won’t get into them now, but just some really kind of just so weird and unique things landing us.

Tickets at something. Oh, the universe just made that happen. That the one empty seat was right beside, you know, all this kind of stuff that, uh, so the universe conspires with us is something we’ve said already in the pod on this podcast in the past. That’s really for me, uh, how I’m expressing spirituality.

But I would, I would certainly say, and this is where we talk about living richly, is a. This is the one that I’m still probably heavy, heaviest, he most, most focused on, on my journey right now. Mm-hmm. is what does, uh, spirituality mean? Yeah. It’s a, it’s a, again, a big topic and I think it, uh, uh, it means so many different things to so many different people, right?

Everything from. Perhaps organized, uh, an organized faith construct or organized religion of some sort, uh, to, uh, uh, it could be for some it’s being out in nature. Uh, I heard one, uh, or read it, one author referred to even when you live your gr your, your Highest Purpose, that that is, uh, uh, an element or an expression of being spiritual.

Mm-hmm. , which I. Just so, so resonate with, uh, like you, there’s been, uh, one that’s been a bit loaded for me. I came out of the same context. Well, all three of us came out of an organized religion type background, church background, uh, two of us as, uh, former preachers. Uh, but all three of us, as I said in a former episode, shepherds, uh, in one way or another.

Um, and I remember when I left the church, that’s after, uh, I, for over two years had been. Uh, uh, uh, starting to not in many ways, uh, the, the, the construct was falling apart from me. Yeah. I no longer believed in much of what I was saying. And again, I, I won’t, that story’s found in the story where I talk, I, I, I share my story, but, um, uh, I think it’s episode number three.

Um, I, I was standing there not knowing what a. Could do. I, I felt very stuck and I remember the relief I felt, uh, during that two year period where I was unsure of myself, wasn’t really believing what I was saying from the front of the room anymore on so many, uh, occasions, the relief I felt when I left, because now I didn’t feel like I was living a lie anymore.

At least I didn’t feel like I needed to. Project, some kind of front that I no longer, long, no longer bought into. Um, and for me it was just a lot of the fear and the guilt and the shame that was built into at least my interpretation or experience of that world. Um, and I remember I would refer to myself, uh, it took, it took probably a couple years after I left cuz I went from having a, at least, even if I.

Held onto it loosely and was struggling with most of it. Uh, it still provided some kind of explanation, uh, for, for the whole, uh, uh, aspect of spirituality. It provided some answers, even though if I, I wasn’t uncomf, uh, very comfortable with them. Uh, and I remember how uncomfortable it was to be without a construct now.

Um, right. So you go from being so sure to now not having anything, and that was a little. Uh, that was quite, uh, disconcerting for a while. And there was also this notion of guilt, uh, that uh, somehow I had let God down because, uh, leaving that world, it’s one thing to leave the business world and go into ministry, for example, as a minister.

Um, people celebrate that, but if you leave as a minister to go into the business world, they see you as a abandoning your call or abandoning God, baxley. Um, and certainly there was a lot of that going on, so there was tr tremendous. Associated with anything spiritual. And uh, so for the longest time when people would ask me where I stand, I’d say, well, I’m, I’m, I’m a spiritual person, but not religious.

That was just me saying, I’m not religious anymore, but I don’t know what I am now. . Right. So that was my default answer. Um, and I, I do recall, uh, coming to a place in those, uh, formative years after I left the church for new formative years, I would call them post church. Where, uh, I had lived so long needing to have the answers.

And I think that’s, uh, in many ways, and, and I hope no one takes offense to this, but I think organized religion provides, uh, uh, for, for many, uh, a set of answers to really tough questions. And, uh, a certainty, uh, in a world that can be very, very uncertain. Um, and, and so I felt very much the, the guilt that I felt, or the challenge that I felt was, uh, that I hadn’t replaced the construct.

So I, I hadn’t answered these ques. I had all these questions now and I was without answers and. I, again, I felt guilt about that. I felt fearful about that, uncertain, and I remember the moment, uh, it was a, a, certainly a, a, a transition, but a period of time where I became comfortable saying, I don’t need to answer those questions, right?

Mm-hmm. that I, I actually, I think, and that was the major shift for me, is that I think spirituality, the part of the beauty of it, the mystery. Is that it can’t be truly defined or nailed down, that it is something greater than what the senses can pick up on. Uh, and so becoming comfortable, I remember becoming comfortable with, uh, I’m just on an adventure and I can, truth can be found pretty much anywhere if you’re paying attention.

If you’re looking it, it really can. And it was interesting, um, and I will say this, you know, you, you made, made a comment a second ago about not wanting to offend. I know of a number of people who are incredibly spiritual. People who express it through an organized, uh, religious, uh, that’s fantastic. Right?

There are absolutely, uh, in, in any, even in the, in the, you know, the, the, the, uh, denomination that we came out of, there are some incredibly, truly spiritual people, uh, who are just absolute lights, uh, um, who still are in that expression. And so, yeah. Uh, I certainly don’t want to paint a brush of any, not at all.

Uh, group that’s like that. You, it wasn’t working for me anymore. It wasn’t working and it wasn’t working for me. Yeah. Um, Trav, you act were, were probably, it was in a conversation. You don’t even will likely remember this now. Thank you. Yes, you did Remember where you really, that first. Kind of broke the, the first kind of piece, the barrier for me to think differently when it came to, uh, spirituality.

Mm-hmm. was that conversation in Nashville. And here we are in Nashville. I know. Thanks. Which conversation for fucking it up. Here we are in Nashville at that point. Uh, six, uh, ex preachers. Uh, Trav, you had served on the board, certainly, you know, doing your stuff as well. Six or seven? Six. There was six I think.

Yeah. Uh, but there’s seven of us there. Seven of us there, and a farmer, seven of us . Uh, and we ended up starting into a conversation. Somebody talked about, you know, God healing them on something and I, I almost got angry at that thinking, ah, Don’t gimme that bullshit anymore. Like, God, you know what? And we started the, and you got talking and I think really introduced that notion of energy and, and began to, uh, open up the idea that you could be a spiritual person, uh, without holding to the fundamental.

Kind of dogma of, of certainly of my, my youth. Yeah. The, I mean, spirituality is, uh, it’s complicated, clearly, right? And, and I, I think it’s, uh, probably if you’re watching and if you’ve been listening to, uh, several of these podcasts, you might even pick up on our discomfort . It’s not flying around on. Right, right.

I, I think it’s because it’s such. Well, it’s, it’s a, it’s a, I think a, a challenging subject for the three of us. And I think all three of us are still very much in process on it, but we’ve committed to share our journey with you. Yeah. And we believe this is a really important aspect of it. You know, you use that phrase, uh, uh, uh, spiritual but not religious.

Hmm. So it, it’s, it’s literally a category S B N R. Right. Uh, and, and in fa in belief categories in the United States. It’s, uh, it now accounts for 25% of the population identifies as spiritual but not religious. Yeah. It’s up 20, it’s up eight points in the last five years, and it’s a single fastest growing belief category.

Wow. Uh, it is. And so, . So it’s interesting. It tells us, okay, there, there is, uh, there are some people who are moving away from conventional views of religion, um, but are still looking, they’re seeking, still searching, still seeking. Yeah, still seeking. So the, the question seeking what, and I think spirituality is our search for connection with the All right, with the universe, right.

Th that larger piece, something bigger than ourselves. Right, right. And we used the language earlier about the universe conspiring with us. You used the word conspire and it tells you it has intent. Right, right. So that there is some kind of intelligence or design something behind all of this. Right. Uh, playing out and, and, and it’s fascinating because you take every religion, philosophy and quantum mechanics and it tells you everything is connect.

everything’s connected. Yeah. When we’re not connected, we’re literally out of alignment with the universe. Right? Right. No matter what lens you wanna look at it, we’re, we’re out of alignment. We’re, we’re missing a piece here. And this is where, and it’s interesting cuz how much of our behavior is to withdraw and disconnect when we feel uncomfortable.

Right. When what we seek most is in connection. Both, I think relationally with other people, but then also I, I in the, in the spiritual. The, you know, we, we talk about, um, you know, we, well we’re talking about the elements. The part of the reason I find the elements so compelling, and you’ve talked about how others respond to it as well, is because humanity has been doing it since day one.

Right? Right. And it was interesting cuz it. You know, you used the phrase, sorry, say throughout history. It’s like, yeah, and the weird thing in history is history’s the only, is only the last 10,000 years and then they have pre-history, which makes no sense to me. , I’m like, I’m pretty sure it’s all history, but I, I think they’re distinguishing between written history Yes.

And unwritten history, which is something like 200,000 years and throughout that entire time, people have been using the elements to find ways to connect with the all with the universe, right? The creator, they’re, they’re whatever. And we have seen, uh, so many different versions of religions and models and approaches pop up in the course of it.

So today there’s about 3000 on the planet, give or take, in terms of defined religions or categories of beliefs, I guess sb n r would be one of them. . And what what’s interesting is the notion of, um, exclusionary beliefs are relatively recent in that longer 200,000 year period for, for eons. People were comfortable saying, yeah, there’s lots, that one’s not mine, but these, these are mine and I’m okay with it.

And then over time it’s become a little bit like there is only one way. Right? And it’s this way or that. And so that’s, that’s a relatively, historically, a relatively recent phenomena around it. But I think there’s a piece where we’ve been looking for that sense of connection always, and that’s a clue.

Right. To say that this has been happening throughout time, that we’re always, we’ve always been seeking, tells us there’s, there is something I think, uh, within us that is trying to get back to source. Right. And I think that’s where spirituality, you know, you, you said it, it’s gonna be slightly different for, for each of us.

So some would say it’s not a religion if it’s a different for everyone, I’m. . There’s also a version where you can think of it this way, which is one source, but how we’re going to connect with it will be subjective to, I’m not you. You’re not me. He’s not right. Right. Like all of that. And we’re gonna have our own way of plugging into that.

Right. It, it doesn’t pollute the source. It doesn’t change, it just means we don’t actually know. That’s why it’s called faith, right? That there is, there is a leap around that. To be able to start to look at. When we talk about things like the conversation in Nashville around healing, for example, um, the, the nature of the universe is matter and energy, right?

And depending on how fast it’s moving, yeah. Uh, it’s one or the other, right? So it can be both and, and everything flows with that, right? Every bit of light. , everything from the table to this microphone to our clothes. Like these are, these are atoms that are in motion in clo close proximity to one another.

Uh, all, all moving always. So there’s energy everywhere. Of course, all healing is some kind of energy. Yeah, right. All pain is basically energy that’s been blocked, and so it’s creating discomfort around it. We, we can get more and more nuanced and more and more descriptive in terms of what’s playing out there.

But I think there is an inherent piece in each of us that is looking for a connection to, to source. Yeah. Mm-hmm. to, to that sense of all. And I think if we try to deny that, uh, we’re gonna run into trouble in the same way that if you try and deny. Any, any of those senses or any of those elements, you’re gonna run into issues.

It’s not going to work. It’s about saying, how do I listen here more? How do I connect here more? How do I discover more? You know, the notion of acknowledging that there is more to be known, to be putting ourselves in context. to look at the sky at night, you know, or the a sunset or the water, and to be dwarfed by the magnitude of what’s around us.

Mm-hmm. , and to feel both absolutely insignificant in one moment and absolutely essential in the next. Right. Right. The paradox that goes with that is a spiritual moment. Right, right. And I think these kinds of things are critical for. Finding our feet in this universe as a soul or a spirit packed in meat.

Uh, right. And say there’s always that. Are we spiritual beings on a human journey or human beings on a spiritual journey? Journey. Journey? And I think the answer is yes. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Oh, fans. And, and we, we need to tend to both, right? A and so this is where we’ll see sometimes people say, no, we must deny the body and the physical and all of.

Like, Hmm. No, I think we need to honor all of it and, and we need to, to recognize how do we bring these pieces into alignment. You know, it’s a, uh, we talked, um, we, in, in certainly last number of episodes about the notion of how these four elements are connected. Hmm. Uh, and while you may lean in on one or or two of them, eventually you’re gonna have to look at all four of them, uh, to really get that full sense of, of living richly.

I know that’s the case for me, is the more I leaned into, uh, the. Hmm. Uh, you know, things like the conversation in Nashville about when somebody says, well, God healed, the studies show that people of faith, um, tend to, uh, that the idea that people are healed or that people get better quicker. Uh, if you have faith that’s more likely to happen.

We know this with peop uh, people who, uh, battle cancer is attitude mindset. makes a huge difference. Difference, right? So whether that’s tied into spirituality or not, but whether it’s a outside, external deity helping cause that for some or not, we do know that that energy that is produced through faith, uh, causes those things to happen.

That, that it’s difficult to argue against the, the science of Well, it’s, I think there’s the, the, the, uh, you know, uh, it’s, it’s quote Jesus’ quoted as saying, Uh, you can’t see wind, but you can see its effects. You can see where it goes. And I think, um, again, regardless of what one believes spiritually about that, the notion of spirit is that you can often, uh, it’s hard to explain its origin.

It’s hard to define its direction where it’s coming from, but you can see its effects. I know for one, I’ve had too many experiences throughout my. Uh, to be able to believe that this is all there is what I can see with my eyes here, with my ears, feel with my hands. Uh, there, there, I still remember 10 years old.

I grew up, I was actually a very, uh, sick kid. Uh, very active kid. Uh, a borderline hyperactive kid. I know you can find that hard to believe. Uh, at the age of two years old, I was back in the hospital. Mm-hmm. , I was. Uh, uh, bronchitis. I had real lung issues at the age of two years old. I was back in the hospital for a period of about two or three months in an incubator cause I was struggling, uh, to, to breathe.

I, I remember a picture of my dad who’s now passed, but uh, uh, of me as a kid and he’s holding me over his shoulder and, My dad, who never really showed tons of, uh, emotion other than joy when he was happy, but it didn’t think, I always saw him cry twice. And one is in that picture. Um, and I, I remember asking my mom like, why is dad so sad in this picture?

She goes, well, he’s holding you. I said, well, why is he so sad? Because at that time they actually thought, Uh, because I was such in bad shape, the doctors actually were fearful that I had leukemia. Mm-hmm. . Uh, and so my parents were living in this period where they believed that, uh, I might have leukemia as just an infant.

Um, well it turned out not to be Lu Leukemia, thank God. But, um, uh, grew up with, uh, severe asthma, severe bronchitis, the slightest change in temperature. Back then, even walking out of this room into the outside where it’s cold could trigger, uh, an attack where my lips would turn blue, would struggle to breathe, often, have to be rushed to the hospital.

Mm-hmm. , uh, I lived on those ventilators, uh, to the point where actually they would, they found out years later these things were actually toxic. And here I was, uh, uh, taking a breathing from a ventilator, or, uh, sorry, the puffers, you know, the. Ventalin puffers. Uh, I, I might be doing that 10, 15 times a day, uh, because I was an active kid, didn’t want to be slowed down.

And so I was taking these constantly and um, and that was my experience. And I remember going to a church service back then and they had, um, uh, a speaker there. Uh, and, and I was only 10 years old. I was still young and, and, and I was religious cuz I was towing the party line. My family was religious so I was there cuz they were making me be there.

I remember not really paying attention to what was going on. I’m a 10 year old kid. I don’t want to be at church raped and, and yet the guy at the front calls out, somebody here just got healed of asthma and I jumped out of my chair. I wasn’t feeling asthmatic at the time. I wasn’t having an attack, but he says that I jumped outta my chair.

I went to the front. I said, and he said, well, what are you here for? I said, I’m, I’m, I, I think I’m the kid. I’m a person with asthma. And, uh, he prayed for me. That was it. Uh, do you know that I never had another asthma attack from that point forward? I never needed a vent. Uh, the Ventilant from that point forward, some people would say, well, Eric, you just grew out of it.

I said, don’t, you don’t understand. You don’t grow out of it. Instantly where one day you’re needing it and can’t survive without the medication. Uh, and you’re risking being brought to the hospital on a regular basis cuz you can’t breathe to all of a sudden being fine and never struggling with it again.

Uh, and that’s just one of many experiences that I’ve had that convinced me from an early age there is more to this thing. Than what we can see and explain. Now, I would grow up in a construct that then would give me language for that and give me definition for that. And over time, that construct no longer worked for me.

But this notion of being a, I describe myself, I guess even from an early age. I tell, uh, in a previous episode about even being a young kid sitting up at night praying for world peace and, uh, and, and. That I, I think I’ve always been, yeah, I think I’ve always been to some degree of force sensitive , uh, right on the way to becoming a Jedi, like this notion of always having this sensitivity, uh, to source, uh, to the universe connected to something.

Greater than myself. Um, and it’s been, again, the religion was a mixed bag. It, it was a, was a means to an end. But I, I look back now and I recognize that because of the time I spent in that world, my ability to access and connect to source is actually highly attuned, uh, to the point where even though I hadn’t been nurturing that for a very long time, and describe when people would ask me while I’m spiritual, but not religiou.

Basically what I was saying is I’m not really paying much attention to that. I’m open and I was certainly open to hearing all kinds of different things and fascinated by truth wherever I could find it. But was I being deliberate about nurturing that element? There’s no way. And it was, uh, again, earlier this year as I was doing this work and I was experiencing these transformations, I remember one morning as I was doing, I journal a lot, I do a lot of reflective writing, and I began to almost pray in my writing and one of the phrases that showed up, I remember Sens.

Uh, a presence and, and again, I, I don’t believe in a, a, a, a personal deity anymore. That’s not really what I prescribe to. I’m, I’m more like you trav like this and, and rob, like this sense of energy source, some higher consciousness, some higher intelligence. There just seems to be too much order for this to all be, too all be random, right?

Well, I mean, I’d say this is, he’d be, he or she would be pretty pissed at you. He heals you of asthma and you take up cigars, , . Like, what the fuck? Like, what the hell? Right, right. Thankfully, I don’t smoke any of those anymore. But I still remember the morning where I was, I was writing in my journal. Just so grateful about all that had been happening.

Yeah, and I’d been reading more about Spear. I’d been leaning in because I had, uh, been reading a particular book where the author says, what have you forgotten about yourself that you desperately need? To remember. And in that moment there was no hesitation, is that I’m a spiritual being a k a, that I’m a force sensitive.

Uh, and that I haven’t really been paying attention to that. And so I started paying attention and it was amazing how it didn’t take very long. I remember writing that particular morning I’m referring to, I’m sitting there just being grateful, sensing. K feeling more connected to source than I had in, in so long.

And I literally felt a presence in the room. Like the energy in the room shifted. And I remember that feeling and I wrote in my journal, uh, it’s like sitting with, uh, uh, it’s, uh, I remember you, uh, can we just sit here for a little while? Yeah. And get reacquainted this notion of connecting to something, uh, uh, bigger than myself and, and what that brings in terms of.

Uh, uh, serenity strength, uh, piece, not as a cop where I’m expecting some, uh, uh, some Santa Claus up in the sky to gimme everything that I need, but connecting to something powerful. And, and, and we talked, we, uh, mentioned earlier about we’re kind of struggling our way a little bit through, at least starting into this conversation.

We, we were. You could sense it, we could sense it anyway. Whether’s, they’re more nervous about this one. Yeah. Whether or not people listening we’re, we’re sensing it or not. We, our audience might be nervous. Yeah. We could feel it. And, and we talked about the We are, we are, we are trying to, our goal here with Living Richly and with this podcast is to demonstrate we are, we are, uh, still pro, we are still on this journey very much.

Uh, and it’s in, you know, so when you had that moment, Uh, where you, you know, sat with an old friend, uh, where you, and you, you, you text us and said, Hey, later on. Yeah, yeah. Hey, I just prayed. And, you know, you talked about it. You were very gracious in your last episode when you said, we were so excited for you.

Um, and, and I appreciate that you included me in that. I was somewhat, uh, happy for you, but at the same time incredibly guarded with oh, And I was guarded in even Ince sending, I hope, hope he’s not going down that road right, because I, what am I gonna do here if he goes down that and, and it, and, and my reaction and then my next reaction was, well that’s interesting , because that’s where I’m at now.

Right. Well that’s interesting, Rob. Why are you reacting so strongly within yourself on that? Right. Uh, and, and began and that really allowed because again, Here’s one of the guys you respect more than any other person on the planet who is having this moment. Uh, and you are gonna stay in your new construct, which is, uh, spirituality bad.

Right? Right. Uh, and all of a sudden was like, okay, maybe you need to revisit that. And, and, and that, that really did. The, you know, the embracing again. Okay. And, you know, cuz I don’t know. And, and, and it is something we struggle with. And you know, when I, when people ask me, I had somebody ask me one time, oh, what do you, are you, do you still believe?

Are you still a believer? And I said, well, you know, I dunno what you mean by that. Uh, and, and I’m struggling with that. Well, what do you do with heaven then? Do you still believe in heaven? And I would say, well, why do you have to go there from here? Well because, because your daughter died. Is your daughter in heaven?

That was the point blank question. And I was like, I don’t fucking know where, you know, like Right. It, it’s a nice thought that, or my mom, you know, is, you know, the notion of it. We hear it all the time. Right. That’s why comfort careful, that’s thing. It’s a comforting thing. Oh, your mom’s looking down on you and she must be so proud of you and she’s cheering maybe.

Yeah, I don’t know. And, and, and I think probably for me on this topic of spirit, uh, I have embraced the unknown, right? And that is the, there’s so much That’s so Free’s a lot of courage. It’s a lot of courage though, right? There’s so much freedom. How often are we after certainty, right? Like always. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. And to embrace the not knowing and, and to recognize that my amazing, my spiritual experience can be in the unknown. See, and that’s so much what I, I mean, so similar to my journey about if I never answer the big questions, that’s okay. Yeah. I can lean into the mystery. I can listen to the whispers.

One of the, uh, I’ve talked about these, uh, word clouds that I created around each of the four elements. Mm-hmm. , they’re so good. And, uh, I mean in mind for spirit, you know, words like Shaman Wizard Jedi show up. Uh, yeah. There’s definitely a geek element. There’s a geek elements. Bob. Oh, no, no, no, no. That didn’t make it.

It probably should. It probably should. Version two. But you also see words like explorer. Yeah. Adventurer. Uh, one of my favorites is veil dweller. Uh, and that’s the notion that I do think that our, the world of the scene and the unseen, the separation between the two is actually very, very, very thin. And I just think that, uh, when we lean into spirituality, whatever that looks like for us, we’re able to cross over.

We’re able. To lean into and touch, uh, what is for most people feels untouchable, unreachable, or impossible, uh, that you begin to experience magic, uh, you know, in better, you know, the miraculous, like the, this notion of the supernatural. Um, uh, I, I’m still, I’m still figuring this out as I go, but all I know is as I’ve leaned into it more and more, uh, it’s been transformational.

Uh, when. The mind work, the heart work, the spiritual work, the, the, the, the, the physical activity work, the health side of things. When that all starts to come together, and again, I th this notion of alchemy, where was the potential for magic is when all four elements come together. Right. The awakening and recognition that the connected to, to all things.

Mm-hmm. , uh, I had put in my notes as a kind of a thought to, uh, ask you about, uh, you know, what are the things that you do in your. Uh, your curiosity is you’re constantly kind of looking into things that I wouldn’t, you know, I remember one day saying, what are you reading? And you were, so, you said, oh, I’m reading about trees.

And I was like, first of all, who writes a book about trees? , and secondly, Who reads buys a book? Who reads a book? Who writes at trees? Who the hell reads it? Who reads it? The trees know these books are printed on paper. and Yeah, exactly. The tree ball balls in a forest and no one’s there to hear it. Does anybody read it?

Um, and yet if I under, if I remember right, because it’s been a number of years, so yeah, correct me if the ne the, the idea of connectedness. Mm-hmm. was a big theme in that, in that book, about, What was the book? Uh, the Hidden Life of Trees. The Hidden Life of Trees. Woo. We’ll put it in the show. It’s a German name.

I always, um, voodoo Hellen . Peter, I’m sorry, . I’m so sorry. I love your book, Peter. On your name. Just go with Peter and Trees. Yeah, so it was a beautiful book and what I liked about it was, Right. We all think we, we understand trees and this book told me, no, you don’t, you don’t have a clue what’s going on.

And this thing that I so took for granted that was day to day and that I like, actively appreciate, I love nature. You guys know that? Yeah. Like me being outside really good. Yeah. All of a sudden the whole thing was different. Hmm. Right. And what I looked at was transformed because he gave me a different way to look at it.

Right. And this guy was like a kind of a, a forest ranger or cared for a forest in, in Germany. Had done a lot of research. Uh, his big focus was, was also on how trees are communicating this hidden life of trees and actually about how, um, fungus was so important as well, and kind of all the connective stuff, but what trees do to take care of each other, to protect one another, to help one another, right?

It’s not all just like the big ones grow and the small ones suffer. It’s like, no way more complicated than that. And the fact that it shook me outta my view about what I thought was actually going on. . Well, if I don’t understand trees, which I was thought I was pretty clear on , what else don’t I understand?

Right, right. Which is, which is actually so much, and I think. when we accept, we don’t know. Right. We create space for knowing differently. Mm-hmm. And, and I think that helps us to encounter things differently. Right. You talked about the scene in the unseen, in that veil between them and, and part of the challenge is we, we think we know stuff because we experienced it.

And, and the example, you guys have heard me say it before, so bear with me here for a second. that notion about what we see and about light, right? So we’re so, you know, something will happen. People go, no, I saw it with my own eyes. I’m like, so you used your own eyes and you saw light, and that light gave you a picture and that picture you’ve interpreted with your brain.

They’re like, yes. And uh, I’m like, we, we hardly see anything. Right? Of the light spectrum. If you took the light spectrum and you made it the Mississippi River, which is 2,340 miles long, it’s like the visible light spectrum. How much of the river could we. Eight inches. Right. That’s it. And we think we understand the river, and, and we’ve exactly, we, we consider ourselves experts on the river based on the myself, eight inches that we see, right?

Yeah. And so the notion that there are things we can do in our life, in our world, in our work, that help us be able to see beyond that, to see maybe 12 inches, uh, 10 feet, maybe a mile outta that 2,340. Right. We start to, one, accept the limits of what we can know, and it creates space to accept the mysteries of what we can’t.

But it also lets us have access to things that maybe we weren’t seeing before or weren’t aware of before, maybe that others aren’t seen before. And I think, I think that’s true with every sense. Mm-hmm. . Right. These are, these are, these are all playing out all the time. So the, the miraculous is sometimes just the, that which we are not able to see easily suddenly becoming visible to us because perhaps we’re, our lens is evolving, right?

Our ability to listen is evolving, but we think it’s. The world. Right? Right. We think it’s the world. It’s uh, and again, I think that’s this notion of when you’re able to, well, think of the gratitude, the, the sense of groundedness. You, you felt experiencing trees for a new time, uh uh, in a new way. Oh, yeah.

After being exposed to something that you just hadn’t looked. That before, uh, you feel again this, this connectedness, this groundedness, this sense of awe, this sense of Yes, in, in many ways this is so vast and so grand and I’m just one little speck of sand, and yet as this little speck of sand, I can leave my signature on the universe by living a purposeful life and, and leaning.

Best version of me that I can actually make a contribution to this thing. Yeah. Um, and tap into energy and, and, and power that is beyond what is normal. Uh, it’s, it’s, it’s quite mind blowing when you start to consider that. Yeah. A really tangible, uh, example of how that energy flows. Um, Was again, the, the, the seasons that you are.

Trevor , um, that’s my word. I know you’re stealing know. Doesn’t know what I am. Ok. The guy with glasses, I’m, you’re respecting, you the, uh, the geek in you, uh, you, you purchased, you purchased a tool that allows you to basically, uh, recreate sound plant wave from your. Buy it. It’s the best thing ever. I will do a shameless plug for them anytime.

It is the coolest thing. Well, and what I, and, and I’m gonna actually encourage that maybe in our show notes, we put a, a sample wave of your Planet. Planet, because I think it would be a cool thing for people to see or to hear, I should say. Uh, but it was interesting because as you had these connected, really all that is, is the energy, it’s the, the water flow through the plant or whatever, you know, however, the mechanics, you can explain it way better than me.

Yeah. Somebody goes over and touches that plant or a, you know, whatever, right? And the, and the sound changes, the energy changes within that. That life, uh, that ex, right? Yeah. And I mean, you can explain obviously a lot better, but it was a, it’s an interesting idea around this notion of energy. It’s so cool, right?

So electricity, energy moves through everything always. You, me, right? You have neural pathways and synapses are firing. What do you think that is? It’s electricity. Like we know that, right? Right. The matrix was built on that, right? Humans says batteries, right? Like the, the whole concept was based on a physical reality that we have different kinds of energy, frankly, flowing through us.

And if you interrupt that, you, you’re gonna run into problems. Uh, plants, same thing. All living things. Same. Actually, I would probably, I would argue all things right. Have energy flowing through them, which is interesting cuz then we kind of go What’s alive? What’s not, what’s another episode? Maybe the um, so with Plant Wave, I know.

Wow. With plant wave. Super cool. So these two electrodes, you attach it to the leaf of a plant and uh, and it, uh, connects through a little box and then that talks to your phone and you can. Basically some filters and it’ll start to play music as the, uh, the software interprets the electrical impulses and transforms them into sounds and music and all different variations.

But to your point, Rob, if you go up and you mess with the plant, like if you squeeze the leaf or you were to tear it, the, all the sound will change cuz you just interrupted the flow of energy in that plant. Plants that grow real fast, sound real different than plants that grow real slow, right? Because the energy flowing through them, uh, at the same time is so different, and it’s absolutely fascinating to realize what’s going on around us all the time with this.

What I like about this is there’s a, there’s another facet to all of this, which is also connection to the sacred or the divine. Mm-hmm. Right? It, it’s recognizing that there is something sacred, I think, to it. It’s not just, I wanna plug in. There is something else, and this is where language starts to fall apart for me, a bit around we feel that presence, we feel changed, we feel we’re in somewhere or something.

Holy. Yeah. Uh, something very often that feels pure. Mm-hmm. Right. Pure’s not quite the right word. Authentic. Yeah. Raw. Uh. Maybe pure. As real as real can get like it feel. Yeah. You’re connecting to something. That you feel you’ve been meaning to connect with your whole life. And I love that you use the Matrix, you know?

Uh, cuz I think for me, when I describe this awakening and, and yeah, I literally, I mean I’ve, I, how many times have I said to you guys this year feels like as I look back on 2022, um, and the changes in my personal. That have been substantial, uh, that there’s no better way for me to describe this year as an awakening, um, as transformational.

Yeah. Um, and it really, uh, it, uh, was expressed. I just, I just looked it up, uh, a journal entry from, uh, July 20th. So it was just this summer. Uh, and I wrote digitally comatose and distorted. Tuned out from what matters Most. Asleep at the wheel of my own life, distant and distracted, disconnected from source.

I had lost my way, my true self, fully alive, deeply aware, completely awake, abundantly present, totally engaged. I have found my way home. . Mm-hmm. And, uh, I don’t think there’s a better way you say, language is hard for this kind of stuff, and I think, again, whatever that means for people. Yeah. Uh, whether it’s, uh, when I walk in nature, I feel connected in a way that I, when I meditate, when I journal, uh, when I go to church, uh, when, right.

Uh, I remember the one part, the one thing about church life that I missed was, is actually the. Uh, cuz I used to lead the singing. And, uh, back then I had a, a decent voice. I don’t know what’d be like, you still have a great voice now. It’s an extraordinary voice. All right. I, it’s a little outta practice, but I remember that, that, that form, that expression of, uh, I, you know, in that world called worship, um, I would just get lost.

It was, I would connect. Uh, spiritually. So for someone it might be getting lost on their guitar or getting lost in music. I think to your point, we’re connecting to the same thing. We just define it differently. And the means by which we get there may be very unique, uh, to your situation. Your situation to mine.

Uh, the point is making space, making room, uh, for that and experiencing more of the divine, I think. Moving beyond survival, not just being plugged into the matrix, uh, as a living battery, a comatose, uh, like a, a zombie, uh, uh, playing some kind of construct in her head that this is reality, but waking up, waking up and plugging into what.

Real life and real living is like, um, and experiencing those elevated emotions of gratitude and joy and serenity and peace in a way that, um, would, you know, that, that perhaps we haven’t experienced before or have, but would like to experience more. I think that’s why it’s so important to, to make room for this and to, to explore.

I, I tell I my encouragement to folks. Explore it. Just be open. Uh, you, you don’t have to follow somebody else’s methodology. There are some practices that throughout, uh, history have proved. For example, meditation, I think is one that is a, uh, sort of a time tested, proven way to get beyond yourself and tap into something else.

Uh, there are other, uh, uh, modalities that have been known are, are known. To con encourage that, but it’s to figure out what works for you, uh, and to invest time and energy, uh, into connecting, connecting to source, connecting to something greater than yourself, right? Mm-hmm. . And I think at the, that, that last statement is it really, that’s what it’s about on the living richly kind of pathway, uh, uh, spirituality is, is at the end of the day, it is about recognizing that this isn’t just about living risk isn’t just about.

You getting everything you want and doing this isn’t all about you. It’s, it’s, it, it’s about you being the healthiest version of yourself so that the connection with others so that you can, right, so that in a way you leave the world a better. Place than you found it. Right. Uh, in whatever, small way, large way, but to recognize that we are connected, I, I, I think the more that I lean into spirituality, uh, the more I’m able to lean into, um, uh, having, having, uh, uh, healthier conversations with others.

Because I recognize they’re on their own journey, right? There’s less black and white. There’s less, uh, uh, of what a, of what we’re, uh, less intolerance, less intolerant. All of those things come into play, which is in interesting. Uh, but that’s really where, you know, how it, how spirituality should affect us, is the, the idea that we are connected.

Uh, I, I talked, you know, I used to. Favorite shows for years and years was a show called Alone, uh, in which people, they go out and they basically are in the wilderness and they have to survive. They’re survivalists. Uh, but one of the things you’ll see is whenever one of those survivalists, uh, when they kill an animal to eat, to survive.

Almost in every, uh, situation, you watch them do some kind of a ritual where they are thanking that animal. Yeah. Thanking the universe. Uh, you know, these, these are, these hunters don’t hunt just to kill, right? They hunt to, in that case, to survive, but they recognize, uh, how they’re connected even to that, to that animal.

There’s so much that’s there. And I think to me, uh, in the living richly. Spirituality is about that. It’s about recognizing the connectedness of all of us and of all things, uh, and how we make our decisions should somehow, uh, certainly be influenced by that connectedness. I say talk to us again in a year, uh, as we continue down this time.

Yeah. Uh, Um, it’s something I think is still unfolding. Very much unfolding. I hope so. For each of us. I hope so. I, you know, I think there, part of this is about going inwards. It, it is about silence and quiet and reflection and intention. Uh, can be meditation, it can be prayer, but it’s, there’s, I think there’s a going inward part and I think there’s a going outward part, right?

Which is, Reminding yourself of the context of, you know, that we’re living in the massive, the, like, the staggering scale of the universe. Yeah. Uh, is no accident. And yet here we are. Here we are with our feelings, Wes, and our thoughts and our beliefs, trying to, trying to navigate our way through, for me, the single most.

Sacred moment, if I can call it. That was, it was, it was a lot of years ago now. It’d be 20 years ago, I think. Um, Carrie and I were backpacking in South America. We knew we were, we were about to start to, we wanted to try and have kids, so we went on our last big kind of adventure trip for a little bit. So we, we, hi.

We hiked the Andes and we are way down south, uh, in Bolivia. The, uh, we are at about 5,000 meters altitude. It was the dead of night. Um, uh, I had to pee. It’s my most spiritual moment. So I went outside the, uh, went to washroom, came out, look up and not a sky, not a, not a cloud in the sky. I didn’t recognize a single star cuz it was in the Southern hemisphere and they were bright and alive at that altitude, like nothing I had ever seen.

And I remember standing there, it was so cold standing there just staring and like tears just poured down my, my face. Hmm. They, it was just so staggeringly beautiful. And, One part of me was like, I am so lucky to be witnessing this. And the other part of me was like, I am so insignificant in all of this.

And it all lived together just right. Mm-hmm. Right, right. And it was such a moving moment and it, and I stumbled across it. Now I try and create those moments. Right, right, right. Part of this move to the country for us. One of the things I loved and I didn’t realize that I was gonna love so much was the stars.

Hmm. Like, never once did that come up as a topic. Uh, but to, to step out at night and see all of these stars just for me, is just so nourishing again and helps. Remind me of that connection. Yeah. So good. Mm, so good. That is, that is so good. Listen, we are, uh, coming up on an hour and, uh, so I think, uh, we probably should, uh, wrap up this episode over now.

Thank God. . Thank god this episode is over. This episode is over. Thank the universe. Uh, yeah. Thank the universe. Guys are gonna wind it down. Uh, one of the, I would encourage, uh, all of you to do is to, uh, subscribe, uh, and by subscribing you can take the journey with us. Uh, and, uh, uh, and I’m sure we’ll be revisiting this topic, uh, way down in the future at some.

No, no. Uh, you know, we’ll be re we’ll be visiting because it is an, it’s such an important element of the, uh, of the journey. And, uh, one of the ways that you can stay in the conversation with us is by subscribing to the channel. So we want to encourage you to do. The, um, go to the website, living richly.me/act, uh, because this is about action.

It’s about living actively. It’s about bringing these things to life. We’ll put a few of the things that we’ve mentioned here on there. We’ll put plant wave there. I love them. Did I mention I love them , uh, the, the Hidden Life of Trees. I’ll put that there, Peter, whatever your last name is, I love your book and your follow on ones as well.

It’s just so, so good. Uh, as a reminder, we’re gonna continue to add resources there that are there for you to use to find your way to where you need to go. And, uh, share this out. If, uh, you’re enjoying these conversations, if you’re benefiting from them, uh, enjoying the journey, share it out with someone, uh, who might benefit.

Again, we’ve been talking about this over and over again. You can take this journey alone. We’ve invited you to take it with us, find a few others that, uh, you’re connected with, uh, who might, uh, be on the journey with you. Thank you for taking the journey and being a part of this and, uh, listening. Us, uh, go through these conversations each and every week and, uh, really do appreciate so much all of you, and we will see you next time.