Unlocking Your Emotions: How to Be Stoic Without Getting Stuck

The Stoic

Eric Deschamps:
Toxic masculinity isn’t just the extreme versions of it, like aggression, like male chauvinism, misogyny. Toxic masculinity all shows also shows up in more subtle ways, like the inability to show emotions.

Rob Dale:
I would never get into fights because when I lost control, I go red. Like, I don’t see I lose control and I Right. So I’m always controlling my emotions because of the fear of losing control.

Eric Deschamps:
The problem is shutting down your emotions or really limiting them is you’re not just limiting the negative ones. You’re you’re you’re numbing also the positive ones that help you really enjoy life even more.

Rob Dale:
Hi, and welcome to the Living Rich Sleep podcast.

Eric Deschamps:
Eric and

Rob Dale:
I are so grateful that you are joining us here today on this episode. We’re so excited to be able to continue our conversation around mindful masculinity. Today, we’re gonna be looking at this the stoic archetype. I almost, stumbled up on that, but we

Eric Deschamps:
are gonna be looking at I got almost got all emotional. You’re getting all emotional. You’re not getting emotional. You’re not supposed to.

Eric Deschamps:
We’re gonna

Rob Dale:
be looking at the stoic, and what is that all about. And, again, because we’re talking mindful masculinity, we’re we’re gonna be looking at both the things, the the, advantages to the stoic, archetype as well as some of the disadvantages. But I want us to just take a few minutes and have that conversation again around why are we calling this mindful masculinity.

Eric Deschamps:
Well, it’s it’s, I think when you do anything mindfully, you are present to what you’re doing, and you’re choosing it deliberately as opposed to just being influenced unconsciously. And when we launched into this series of shows on being a real man, what does that mean in today’s society? And, again, we we say that with humility. We don’t claim to have all the answers about what that means. But we began to, in our research, realize that there are some some real significant stereotypes or archetypes that have influenced the male psyche, how we show up in the world. Yeah. And those archetypes often contain great strengths. There’s a reason they were embraced at some point throughout history to become what they are now, but they have a dark side, and they keep men stuck. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
And so this is really about creating a conversation, moving away from toxic masculinity to more mindful masculinity to, again, looking at these archetypes saying, how are they influencing the way I show up in the world, and is that the kind of man I wanna be? Right. You get to choose. You don’t have to just follow the crowd.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. And we wanna we want people to engage in a conversation around this. Exactly. And and one of the things that we have found is and oftentimes, when we get talking about masculinity today, people often go to toxic. Right. And so now there’s this, for a lot of men, this their their backs get up, and they get very defensive around, oh, we’re changing what it means to be a man. We’re dismissing the real man, and we have to you know, all of this kind of stuff. And what we’re saying is no.

Rob Dale:
No. Let’s have a conversation so that we can be mindful. Yeah. Recognizing how we’re showing up. And what I love about the approach we’re taking is just what you’ve already just said was is that we are recognizing the value of each. There’s a reason why these stereotypes exist. Right. And there’s so much good in them.

Rob Dale:
There’s also so much that we need to be mindful about them, and that’s really what this conversation is about. So we’re talking today stoic Yeah. Which last, episode and we wanna encourage people to go back and look. There’s been a couple of episodes. The first episode we did in this series was just

Eric Deschamps:
unpacking what we’re gonna be talking about. So important, and

Rob Dale:
I encourage people to take unpacking what we’re gonna be talking about. So important, and I encourage people to take some time to listen to that episode. And now we’ve talked already about the lone wolf or the lonely wolf. Yeah. And I appreciate so much how vulnerable you were on that one. That’s a stereotype that you certainly connect to and can relate to, both the positives and the challenges, the things

Eric Deschamps:
that I know the dark side.

Rob Dale:
The dark side of it. This is one that I can now kinda probably tie into and be a bit more familiar with. As we talk about the the stoic archetype, talk to me a little bit. Just at a high level, what are we talking about when we talk about the stoic?

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. I think when we talk about the stoic, I mean, literally, like, was it it came around as a a sort of a philosophy. It sort of emerged in, like, 300 BC, I think it was, back in Greece. A fellow by the name of Zenosidius, it was the guy or Psidium, I should say, was the guy who’s credited with its its origins, but really made famous, the stoic philosophy, really made famous by guys like the the likes of Marcus Aurelius who you’ll often see him quoted

Rob Dale:
Can I just jump in just before you go in and explain it? Yeah. Can we, start a movement to bring back some of those wonderful Greek names? Like, we, like, we need some babies born. Zeno of Zidium. Exactly.

Eric Deschamps:
Like like like, nobody would have

Rob Dale:
Come on.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Those are some great Anyways, it’s

Eric Deschamps:
really great days. But but it it emerged as a as a philosophy, a really powerful philosophy, actually, very, very useful about mastering your emotions through self control and toughness, if I can just really use it layman’s terms, to shake off sort of bad vibes and destructive feelings. It really was about understanding that emotions left unchecked, can go from a nice fire in the fireplace keeping the place warm and lighting up the room to burning the whole fucking room down. So it emerged as a response to that, to say that, leaning more into logic, leaning more into understanding what you can and can’t control. They were also actually famous for being lovers of nature. That was a big part of it. Right? Which and we we certainly are that. And again, managing and mastering some of those darker emotions, that some that often get us into trouble.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. But I think over time, what ended up happening is it’s become this and I wanna make clear that when we talk about the stoic today, we’re not talking necessarily about that original philosophy, which, again, I think holds tremendous value for anyone to examine. A lot of great truths found there. But what we’re holding up today to challenge is the stoic mindset in terms of the archetype or stereotype that leaves men feeling stuck emotionally. Like, I would almost say this is about how to be stoic without getting stuck. And I can I love that? Play on that phrase. Right? With, so how how to lean into emotional mastery for sure. What I can control, can’t control, absolutely.

Eric Deschamps:
Love of nature, 100%. How to master difficult emotions, you got me. Right? But for some men, it’s led to really an emotional straitjacket where they are incapable, unable, or, just been conditioned not to get in touch with their emotions.

Rob Dale:
And it and, you know, and I relate to this. I I talk about, you know, I I’ve got a red headed temper, but it’s very seen you know, the the clip Wait.

Eric Deschamps:
You know, the our our audience wants to know something. They’ve I I’ve gotten several, emails, texts, and whatever since the show started. Yeah. They said, Rob is a redhead. Yes. Does he have a soul?

Rob Dale:
No. No. No.

Eric Deschamps:
No soldier. I can No.

Rob Dale:
Have a soul. No. Absolutely. I, redheads don’t do have a soul. Yes. I’m

Eric Deschamps:
glad we cleared that.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. No. But I so as a but one of the I people will say you’ve got such a long fuse, like like and and and I do. Like, nothing gets to you until it does.

Eric Deschamps:
Until it does.

Rob Dale:
No. And and I am very much I can I see that when I I I go, go, go, go, you you feel it blowing up, you you keep in control, and but when it comes out, it’s so irrational, the anger? And again, I can say, I mean, most people people that are close in my life can in many cases, I’ve got people that have known me for, you know, 15 years, and they’re like, I don’t know if I’ve ever seen you really get angry. Yep. Because it’s very rare when it happens. But and the way I used to describe it even in my late teens, when I used to kind of I was running on the streets and doing a bunch of stupid shit is I would never get into fights because when I lost control, I go red. Like, I don’t see I lose control, and I so I’m always controlling my emotions because of the fear of losing control, and we’re gonna get into more about that stuff. But that’s the stoic, is the is the one who feels the need to always be in control of that until you’re not.

Eric Deschamps:
Until you’re not. Until you’re not. Right? Now I was raised in a French Canadian home. Very emotional.

Rob Dale:
I’ve never noticed you speaking, yes.

Eric Deschamps:
You know, I That’s how I’m acting for every French word. I could You know I’ve

Rob Dale:
referred Listen.

Eric Deschamps:
I will say

Eric Deschamps:
this about the French. We can swear far better than the English. Right? Like, and and I’m sorry if you don’t agree with me, but in in French, it’s about how many swear words you can string together in

Rob Dale:
a row. It’s poet. It’s poet.

Eric Deschamps:
It’s poetry in motion. Yeah. It’s it’s, it’s vile and it’s profanity, but it’s it’s profanity in motion.

Eric Deschamps:
And it’s always based on the church.

Eric Deschamps:
It’s always based on the church. Absolutely.

Eric Deschamps:
I mean, we’re not here to talk about that. Like, we’re we’re off topic. We’re off topic.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. But it’s true. But I was raised in a home where, I remember having friends over, right, that were not raised in a French cane home. And they used to sit at the dinner table and be a little bit shell shocked by the volume and the, the, how animated we were. And so for me, being being comfortable expressing emotion, I would say, has been part of my journey the whole way. The problem is there was an over to talk about there was an there was an o a great comfort with emotion, not a great understanding of how to control or master more negative emotions. And so I grew up with a really serious temper, real anger issue right into my late twenties, right, where stuff even though I was comfortable expressing emotion, there’s a lot that I wouldn’t and I would bottle up, especially when it was darker stuff or more painful stuff. I was falling prey still in that moment, to the stoic mindset that you can’t or to the just the condition forget stoic for a second.

Eric Deschamps:
Just the conditioning that most men have been taught that you can’t let them see you cry Yeah. That if you get hurt, just rub some dirt on it. Don’t be a sissy. We’ve talked about this. Don’t be a pussy. Don’t show that that emotion, and what we end up doing is bottling it up inside until it gets the better of us.

Rob Dale:
Right? Until it gets uncorked.

Eric Deschamps:
Until it gets uncorked. And and if I could come back, you said something, in your introduction, I think, is worthy of coming back to for just a moment before we dive in, because we wanna look at the upsides of, the stoic mindset or archetype and and things that I think people men could benefit from really channeling and leaning into. And then let’s we’re gonna examine the dark side of it. But you talked about how we start talking about being a real man in today’s culture, and people get their back up. Especially men tend to get their back up, especially when we use the terminology toxic masculinity. I would remind our listeners, especially the men that are listening, toxic masculinity isn’t just the extreme versions of it, like aggression, like male chauvinism, misogyny. I mean, put all the the darker stuff in there. Of course, those are all expressions of toxic masculinity.

Eric Deschamps:
But toxic masculinity all shows also shows up in more subtle ways, like the inability to show emotion, like the lonely wolf that we talked about and the inability to ask for help or admit that you’re struggling. These are toxic behaviors that really get us into trouble. And I have discovered in my life, when someone says something or I hear or I’m exposed to something and I get angry or resistant, I really need to examine that as opposed to run away from it. Why? Because something that is core to me is being rattled and shaken, and perhaps I need to examine it more closely. So if you’re listening to the show today and there’s stuff that you don’t agree with, good.

Eric Deschamps:
If it

Eric Deschamps:
makes you upset, good. Just don’t dismiss it out of hand. Make sure you

Eric Deschamps:
give it an attention.

Rob Dale:
Go a bit further on that, and and I would say to those that are listening that do right away get their backup, let me speak your language. What are you afraid of? Right? Stop stop don’t be chicken. Right? Time to human up. Right? Yeah. Like, human up and take a look and see if some of these behaviors or these characteristics are true. If they’re not, good.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. You’re golden. But at least But then mindful.

Rob Dale:
You’ve been mindful enough to say, hey. Am I someone who struggles with some of these? And then let’s just look at where that where does that take you on the journey as you start to explore. And that’s really what we’re trying to do here. So let’s talk about some of the the benefits of the stowage. Why is it because if there were no benefits, it wouldn’t exist.

Eric Deschamps:
It wouldn’t have taken root.

Rob Dale:
It wouldn’t have taken root. So what are some of the benefits? Maybe let’s start with what what would be the first one that comes in mind?

Eric Deschamps:
Definitely the first one for me is resilience. Right? The ability to weather the storm. Because stoicism isn’t just about keeping a stiff upper lip. It’s really about remaining cool under pressure. And, listen. I’m sure you’ve been in situations where you have appreciated so I admire that about you for sure. You’re always you seem always cool under pressure. Right? And and no doubt people appreciate that about you.

Eric Deschamps:
But when something’s going down that’s like a crisis or whatever, you want someone who’s calm, cool, and collected. So the ability in that moment not to get overwhelmed by the emotion of the moment, to distance yourself from those emotions, and to look at it more objectively and more logically and to think about what’s the better way forward here. Listen. That is going to give you tremendous resilience. I have been carried along by the ways of negative emotion. Yeah. And when that’s happening, you’re not thinking straight. You’re not at your best.

Eric Deschamps:
You are emotionally and mentally compromised.

Rob Dale:
If I’m sitting in a room and there’s a bomb in the room and I can’t get out And the bomb the bomb disposal unit, they come in. The first question I’m

Eric Deschamps:
asking and they’re freaking out. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. Right? No. Can you imagine? They need to do a comedy movie where that’s what happens. The bomb disposal guy comes into the roof. Oh, shit.

Eric Deschamps:
Oh, you’re in trouble. We’re fucked people. Right? You you want that. That’s the first question I’m asking him is, do you have control of your emotions?

Rob Dale:
Right. You want there are so that’s you’re absolutely right. There are situations and circumstances where you absolutely are looking for the you want the leader who says, everyone follow me. We’re gonna get through this.

Eric Deschamps:
Right.

Rob Dale:
That’s there’s there’s so many situations when when when you’re in that’s when you’re in the crisis, in the moment. I remember I was working with this was a long time ago. We were working with a, there was a an expo that was happening, a health expo, and we had a guest speaker from the States. And he was up, and and and I and I was, the the person who’s running it, I was helping them out. And my job was to just kinda be their assistant, be the support guy for this for this guest speaker, going into all the media, doing news report, or doing interviews, taking him around, everything like this. And at one point, he said to me he said, I’ve never had anyone working with me who stays focused and calm no matter what cry whatever happens, and he tried to convince me to to go and work for him full time.

Eric Deschamps:
Right.

Rob Dale:
You were trying to convince me to come and coach with you, so I picked you.

Eric Deschamps:
I made the better offer. You well, maybe not the better offer.

Eric Deschamps:
But but here we are. But here we are. Years later.

Rob Dale:
But so I I can relate to that is the the calmness to be able to to to kinda and and now going into the next benefit. In that calmness, the stoic has the ability to stay focused. 100%. And and I think that’s the second if resilience is the first positive, attribute or characteristic, the second one is the focus. You’re not caught up in what is happening. You’re able to almost get that the clear focus and vision in the midst of chaos.

Eric Deschamps:
Right. Right. You you’re able to keep your eye on the prize. Right? You’re not you’re not as easily rattled. And so rather than getting distracted by a million different things, that ability again to and it’s not about turning off your emotions. And I think this is where we, stoicism is misunderstood. It was mastering the more negative versions of it. I love the, in in our notes here, you put this great quote from Marcus Aurelius who is, again, the stoic philosopher is probably the most well known even though he’s not, the originator of of of it all.

Eric Deschamps:
It says, you have power over your mind, not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength. And how many times have we talked about you are not your thoughts, you are the one who thinks your thoughts, You are not your feelings. You’re the one who experiences them. And when we’re able to, appreciate all those things but detach ourselves from them slightly, even just a little bit, we gain perspective. And so focus definitely comes. And with that focus then, another great upside of the stoic mindset is the ability to remain clear in your thinking and make better decisions. Right? Let’s face it.

Eric Deschamps:
When you focus on logic over extreme emotion, you’re going to find it easier to make better decisions. I I know I have said things and done things in the heat of the moment when I’m all worked up that, I can’t point there’s not a lot that I could point to that says that in those moments, I look back and said, that was the right thing to say

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
And the right way forward. Usually, you look

Eric Deschamps:
and you go, what the

Eric Deschamps:
fuck was I thinking? Why did I say that? I’m usually having to go back and do some repair work as opposed to advancing.

Rob Dale:
Now where I’ll where I’ll maybe challenge that one a little bit, because I I agree. It is it is, historically, it has been one of the characteristics that that supports or or really celebrates the stoic. The more we understand, the way the brain works, the way we learning a lot about how you’ve got as many decision making, why am I blanking on the word there? But decision making capabilities in your gut Right. As you do in your brain. Right? And so this notion of follow your

Eric Deschamps:
Even in your heart is considered another source. Right?

Rob Dale:
So following your gut, and we talk about this. The stoic would say, you don’t follow your gut. Right. You don’t follow your gut instincts. You follow the logic. Yeah. And what I would say is the more and more we’re leaning in there, sometimes, when the emotion says, run.

Eric Deschamps:
Run. Run. Right? Don’t might be the Right.

Rob Dale:
It is. So so I think there is there in most situations, the stoic has the ability to make better decisions. Sometimes, your your dis the decision needs to embrace the emotion a 100% in that moment. Right?

Eric Deschamps:
But that’s where you’re rather than cutting emotion off, you’re using emotion to inform your decision. And but I think this is where, again, what I again, whether men have embraced this I I don’t think there’d be a lot of men that have embraced the stoic philosophy. I’ve run into some people that definitely would say that.

Eric Deschamps:
Right. I

Eric Deschamps:
think most men are just influenced by that sort of emotional cutoff. The only emotion they really know is rage and anger, and we’ll talk about that in a moment. Why is it that that’s so? Why is that the case? But I love the this notion of again, it’s not either or here. No. Right? I think a more balanced, a more healthy a healthier approach to it all is in the words of Jim Collins in his book Good to Great. He said that, effective leaders learn to embrace the genius of the both and as opposed to the tyranny of the either or. So it’s not logic or emotion. What if you embrace logic and emotion? I think you’d be far better off.

Rob Dale:
I love that. And another characteristic I think that is, that really celebrates the stoic is reliability. You know, the stoic is someone who again, because they’re not they don’t often get shifted. The the the the emotion isn’t pulling them. They’re able to stay committed. They’re able to stay, again, because of focus. They’re able to stand by what they say regardless of how the sands are shifting, regardless of what’s going on. You certainly will see people to and we we talk about it today, and this is why people kinda push back on the the language of the of toxic masculinity

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Rob Dale:
Is because you do see today where there’s so much that, you know, suddenly because of mental health issues and everything else, oh, I can’t do that today, or I can’t do this. And and often you’ll hear people say, we can’t depend on people anymore, because they’re not able to they don’t have that stoic ability to just say, I’m pushing forward no matter what the situation.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. And and I think, you know, the last upside that we’ll explore today, and this certainly hasn’t been an exhaustive list. No.

Eric Deschamps:
This

Eric Deschamps:
You’re just kinda covering some of the the high you think of you think of all the things we’ve mentioned. Right? Resilience, focus, clarity, and decision making, reliability. These are all phenomenal leadership traits. Right? So if if you’re a leader, you’re a male leader listening to this, these are all phenomenal things to channel in your leadership. What we’re trying to say is, it’s not enough. Right? We’re gonna talk about, in a few minutes, how Daniel Goleman’s emotional intelligence model would challenge. Again, not say that not these things are bad. Not at all.

Eric Deschamps:
But emotional intelligence would say there’s more to the picture than perhaps that stoic philosophy or mindset or archetype would let lead us to believe. Right? Let’s talk about some of the downsides now. Right? I I think the biggest one and and and we hear this often from, significant others. Right? That talk about their their male partner and say, he’s just not emotionally available. He’s disconnected. He, the the that stoic archetype, that inability to get in touch with your feelings and express emotion appropriately. And and, by appropriate I don’t mean you’re gonna get it right all the time, but you’ll be able to tap into your emotions. For for to me, it’s like the difference between living in black and white.

Eric Deschamps:
I think you used this on our recent show. Right. Living in black and white, we’re both old enough to remember black and white television. Right? Well, at least I’ve heard stories about black

Eric Deschamps:
and white. Give me a break. Right?

Rob Dale:
It’s a man.

Eric Deschamps:
It’s difference between yeah. Back in my day.

Eric Deschamps:
But it’s the difference between living in black and white and living in color. Right? Like, when you’re not able to tap into those emotions, you’re missing out. It’s like it’s like part of your gear is not functioning. Right? You you shut it off. You just not learned how to channel it, how to access it. And this can lead to a real problem in relationships, either, platonic relationships, friendships, but where it really shows up is in relationships with significant others. Relationships are kids and the rest of

Eric Deschamps:
it.

Rob Dale:
There it is. And and not only so we we for a lot of men, there’s a struggle to be able to, to express those emotions, and and a lot of that, you know, we’ll get into it even with because we only know one emotion. We don’t know the language to use. It was interesting. I was working with a, I coach a number of different teams, and I’m coaching one of the teams that I’m working with. It’s a leadership team for a a large landscaping company, and I’m and I’m meeting with them, and I’m working with them. And one of the guys actually brought up very much this was he’s trying to become more, outgoing with his emotions, and he reckon that even his his wife was like, yeah. Like, you really do struggle with this.

Rob Dale:
And and he shared an emotion, and I said, is that really the emotion? Let me take you through a little exercise, and I use the feelings that we owe. Which we’ve talked about on the show before. We’ll put it in the show notes. I talked about the feeling wheel, and I took him through to what he was truly feeling. And you you it was just wonderful to watch this this guy. He’s probably he’s in his late fifties, maybe early sixties. For the first time be able to to follow the dots, to connect the dots, to go that’s what I’m feeling.

Eric Deschamps:
Right.

Rob Dale:
And now he could because he could name it, he was able to then express it. Right. We use name it, tame it, but even just to express it. And I think there’s that challenge to do that. We see it one of the great examples that I would, that I see it in is is certainly people coming back from whether it’s veterans coming back from war, people that have gone through incredibly traumatic, those traumatic events. They just in those moments, because in in the the positive side of the stoic, they’ve had to keep their motions in check Yeah. To do the job. Yeah.

Rob Dale:
When they’re off the job, they don’t know what to do with it. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
Well, let let’s let’s remind our audience. Listeners, I I wanna remind you, the word emotion contains the word motion. I remember it was Susan Blaine when she was on the show last year, right, with the dare to be vulnerable movement. She’s we’re great big fans of hers. She she were she she made that statement, and it stuck with me. Emotions are meant to move through us. But for stoics or people stuck in the stoic archetype, I would say emotions get stuck. They they don’t get to move through.

Eric Deschamps:
And and this leads to a second downside of that archetype of of keeping your emotions always under control is that their emotional bottling is at risk here. Your risk of kinda, because you keep them under wraps so much, you you you never learn to really appreciate their value. And just because you don’t express an emotion, doesn’t mean it goes away. If it doesn’t move through you, it stays stuck in you. And usually what ends up happening, it can lead to to all kinds of negative physical and even mental health issues, because it’s it’s not meant to stay there.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
So the ability to express it is not just a a good thing that you might benefit from. It’s actually like, it’s critical to your physical and mental health.

Rob Dale:
I saw completely agree. And and, and I, of course, I agree because that’s what all the research shows us. One of the things that for me oftentimes, because it’s motion, emotion is is motion, yes, sometimes we can bottle it up and we we contain it. For me, though, what would often happen is that that sucker’s gotta move. Right. And so it gets expressed in a different way. Yep. Yep.

Rob Dale:
And and and so much of my my destructive tendencies, until I learned to to start to express my emotions in a in a healthy, productive way, so much of my destructive behaviors was I’m feeling stress, let’s say, use that. I’m feeling anxious, and so I would do something that was completely unhealthy or not beneficial to me, but it was a way of getting that motion out Yep. In a completely different in what I would see as a safe way. Not safe, but if that makes sense. Totally.

Eric Deschamps:
I think I think that the point you’re making, and I wanna really drive it home, is that whether you express emotion or not, you’re going to express

Rob Dale:
emotion. Exactly.

Eric Deschamps:
That emotion is gonna find a way out, and that’s either gonna come out in a way that’s healthy, and and, vibrant and and and helps you enjoy like, let it move through you, or it’s gonna come out sideways. And again, for most men, when it comes out sideways, it often comes out as anger or rage. That that that filter, for some reason, for men, that’s a that’s a big thing.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. And it’s and and one of the resulting things of that, of course, is the strained relationships. Yeah. 100%. All of a sudden, we and we see this, the stoic almost in some ways becomes the lone wolf, but not in the healthy way. Becomes a lonely wolf, I should say, only because that those all there becomes distance. I’ve worked with you have worked with all kinds of young people in different, you know, different environments in our backgrounds. And so many times, kids would express to me, I don’t my dad doesn’t love me.

Rob Dale:
My dad doesn’t care about me. And I of course he loves you. Of course he cares about you. He does not express it.

Eric Deschamps:
Right.

Rob Dale:
So now so there’s this distance, and we suddenly see generations of kids that are are completely disconnected to parents. So many of us who grew up with stoic, not my case, but many people that have grown up with stoic parent dads Yeah. Suddenly they’ve they’ve they’ve always struggled to find the to to get accepted by their dad because that relationship is so strained. So many relationships, marriages

Eric Deschamps:
that follow-up are It wasn’t because there wasn’t love present. Absolutely. It’s because there was an inability to express it. And I think significant others would say, you know, that they’re perhaps not receiving the emotional support that they need. They feel that they their partner feels distant and and per perhaps a bit aloof, and not really connected because they’re not able to get in touch with the their their heart. And remember, when we talk about living richly, one of the ways we define that is having full access to all of the resources of the mind, the heart, the spirit, and the body. Right? Like, using all the gear the universe has given us to truly live up to our full potential. And I think for a lot of men, other than passion and which is fire and anger, which is real fire as well, they they struggle with any other kind of emotional range, and that can lead to some real problems.

Rob Dale:
So let’s talk more about Daniel Goleman and, emotional intelligence, and what does emotional intelligence, say to what would what would, if Daniel Goleman was on the show hey, Daniel Goleman. We’d love to have you on the show. Is Daniel Goleman? Shouldn’t we ask this live here, but is is he alive?

Eric Deschamps:
Daniel Goldman? I think so. I think so. I will. Daniel, if you are, reach out to us because we we’d love

Eric Deschamps:
to have you on the show. If not, our deepest condolences.

Eric Deschamps:
Well, wow. You’ll never come on the show now. You just really fucked it up. If Dan That’s so hard for you. Hey, Steve. Are you here?

Eric Deschamps:
He’s here. Steve is just shaking his head like this.

Rob Dale:
I he’s like he’s like, god. Okay. Anyway, if Daniel what would emotional intelligence say to the store?

Eric Deschamps:
Well, it’s interesting because, again, there’s so many great qualities as we’ve said, to, you know, from resilience to focus to clear decision making and the rest of it. But I think Daniel Goleman’s model would would say it’s it’s not enough. It’s not complete. And, I love the ancient story, Buddhist story of the 3 blind monks that are are asked to describe an elephant. And I think one of them is hugging, like, the elephant’s leg. One is holding the trunk in its arm in his arms, and the third, the third monk is holding the tusks. Right? And they’re each asked to describe the, what they’re experiencing and what they’re feeling because, of course, they can’t see. And all 3 monks describe and report accurately what they’re feeling and experiencing.

Eric Deschamps:
And so in essence, their description of the elephant is accurate, but it’s not complete. It’s not complete. So I think Daniel Goleman’s model would inform, not it would challenge it in some ways that that it’s gone too far. A lot of the stoic, mindset has gone too far. Again, we’re we’re not encouraging folks to abandon it. As a matter of fact, I think there’s a lot of men that could benefit. I I kind of wish that I would have been exposed to some stoic thinking earlier on in in my life, and it might have helped temper some of the extreme emotion that I was feeling. Might I might have learned some skills, earlier in life, to manage that a little bit more.

Eric Deschamps:
But we wanna avoid becoming the spocks of the world, right, that are living without emotion. Because if you’re a Star Trek fan, by the way, if you follow Spock’s evolution throughout the movies, young Spock to old Spock, old Spock has become very comfortable with emotion, much more comfortable with emotion. It’s understood that his human side is as much value as his Vulcan side. Now I just I just geeked out there for a second.

Eric Deschamps:
Sure. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
But but Goleman would say there’s more to the story, and that emotional intelligence is about learning to use your emotions, getting in touch with them, and using them effectively. And there’s all kinds of research that would show us that the the male leader who embraces emotional intelligence, will not only help avoid a lot of the physical repercussions like blood pressure issues, cardiovascular disease. There’s all kinds of research that shows the inability to tap into your emotion leads to that. Mental health issues, we’re gonna put some stuff in the show notes. Research and studies that have shown how damaging it is to men, to or for and and this isn’t limited to men. Let’s face it. There’s a lot of women that are, our female listeners are gonna be listening to this and are gonna be able to relate to this whole shutdown of emotions thing too. But it’s it’s you know, stoicism would teach men to be unflappable, to control their emotions, and remain calm under pressure.

Eric Deschamps:
It’s about, it’s really about maintaining a stiff upper lip, no matter what. And I think Daniel Goldman’s model would try to flip the script a little bit.

Rob Dale:
I love, when you watch movies today and with a lot of the the action heroes and characters, how you see, even the storylines of many of these of the of the kind of the the the hero, are embracing a lot of that emotional intelligence. Right? And 10 years ago, 15 years ago, the action hero never cries, never is bothered. Right? Only shows anger, in conflict, is is so common. And whereas today, there’s there’s a lot so many movies where you watch that and and you see some of these strong, tough characters, their scenes where they are, showing that emotion, their weeping, their vulnerability, the the embracing. I I really do appreciate the fact that, society is starting to get the idea that this didn’t work.

Eric Deschamps:
Right. It’s not working.

Rob Dale:
It’s it’s this isn’t complete Right. Is probably the better language of what we’re trying to say is that there is there was another side of this that needs to be in order to be full.

Eric Deschamps:
100%. 100%. Like, stoicism focuses on, again, that control and suppression where emotional intelligence would push for emotional, awareness and expression. Right? It invites men to break out of the emotional straitjacket that they’ve been in and learn to be more comfortable showing empathy, showing vulnerability. And I know we had a one of our viewers, you know, we’ve talked about him on the show before, and we are grateful that he joined the conversation, even watched the episode because he’s of a very different viewpoint. I think one of his statements was that vulnerability is for women. And Right. Again, we we we disagree with that, probably.

Eric Deschamps:
You know, we disagree with that. I know very strongly. I think vulnerability is a is a superpower whether you’re male or female, But that is an expression, his view, that never let them see you sweat. Don’t let them see you cry. Don’t show weakness. Man up. Don’t be a pussy. All of it falls into that, category.

Eric Deschamps:
Whereas, again, what we’re encouraging is channel your stoic when it makes sense to channel your stoic, but don’t be a one trick pony no different than when we said, hey, there’s times where you’re gonna need to channel your lone wolf. Yeah. Because if all you do is live your life to follow the crowd, you’ll never do anything on purpose that’s fulfilling. You gotta follow your heart, and at times, that means striking out on your own. It’s no different. There are times here where the the stoic approach is the right approach for the moment. But what if you completed the picture and you expanded your range and added the ability to to inform your decision making, and connect better with your team and connect better with your spouse and connect better with your kids because you are learning to express emotion more appropriately, more regularly other than just passion and rage.

Rob Dale:
So we’re gonna talk about passion and rage. We’re gonna talk about those emotions in a moment. But before I do, I’m gonna go completely off script and and, you know, I know that we we’ve got these notes. But what would you say, because often, I know this was true for me, and having to learn this. What would you say to the person that says, Eric, I get it. I get it. I need to I I I I I’m I’m a stoic. I do I I need to express this emotion.

Rob Dale:
I need to be more comfortable, or or I need to be able to do this, but I’m just uncomfortable. I don’t know how to be around emotion, emotional people, or I get really uncomfortable when people start to, express emotion. I think of the person, and this is oftentimes. Right? If you’re sitting with someone who is, who is sad, is is is kinda gone through something, and they’re crying, You’re you’re you’re the stoic’s response is to maybe is smart enough to say I need to, you know, hold them, but then it’s it’s okay. It’s okay. Don’t cry. Right? Right. We right away try to stop stop emotioning.

Rob Dale:
We do it.

Eric Deschamps:
We do it. Listen. We, my dad did it to me Yeah. And I did it to my kids. Right. You know, because I didn’t understand this stuff back then.

Rob Dale:
Would you say to someone who just says, I just I don’t under I I’m uncomfortable around emotion. How do I get comfortable being around emotion?

Eric Deschamps:
Get comfortable being uncomfortable. Right? Because you’re you the the reality is But I hope

Eric Deschamps:
you’d say

Eric Deschamps:
if this is something you’ve not been open to or you’ve not explored, it’s like anything new in your life. Right? You step into an arena where you don’t have the training or the experience. Your immediate feeling is one of incompetence. I don’t know what I’m doing here. I don’t know what this is. I don’t know how to respond to this. And although that’s uncomfortable, it’s a necessary part of learning and transformation. Right? It’s it’s, it’s Stephen Covey’s steps of learning.

Eric Deschamps:
Unconscious competence to conscious competent incompetence to, conscious competence to unconscious competence. Right? But it starts with realizing I don’t know what I’m doing here. This is all new to me. So, of course, it’s gonna make me feel uncomfortable. But I would say to you, what

Rob Dale:
do you what what do you have

Eric Deschamps:
to be afraid of? Like, how many times have you been in a situation where you were learning something new? You were uncomfortable at first, but in time, you learned it, and you became more confident, more competent over time. This isn’t gonna happen overnight. But through training and through giving yourself permission to complete, perhaps, the equation in your life, you’re gonna open up an entire arena. Right? Like, the the problem with shutting down your emotions or really limiting them is you’re not just limiting the negative ones. You’re you’re you’re numbing also the positive ones that help you really enjoy life even more.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
So, again, you’re you’re sort you’re sort of, like, partially numb. And if you’re tired of being numb and you wanna be alive, open up to this area and start exploring. And and we’re gonna talk about strategies that you can, you can use to do just that.

Rob Dale:
Just before we jump in and talk about the strategies then, let me just let’s just let’s spend a minute or 2. Yeah. We’ve got about 5 minutes left, 6 minutes left before we wanna really land the plane here, but so just a minute or 2

Eric Deschamps:
Time has gone by fast. I know

Eric Deschamps:
it is. It has.

Rob Dale:
It has gone by. Yeah. About why are men so angry? Why are we so conditioned? Why why are we so conditioned that that is a normal expected response? When men get angry, we just go, well, that’s just that’s what men do.

Eric Deschamps:
Well, listen. I think a big part of it has been social conditioning. It’s been how we’ve been raised, how we’ve been nurtured. Emotions like sadness or fear are considered weak. And and we’re told from, you know, from the the time, like, we’re little, right up into adulthood, toughen up. You’re better than this. But, you know, you’re stronger than this. And so, any emotion that, again, it would be labeled as weakness is avoided.

Eric Deschamps:
And yet aggression and anger is almost encouraged because that’s taking control. That’s a man. Being a man is asserting himself in this world. So I think the social conditioning is a big part of it.

Rob Dale:
I think so. I and and I think it becomes an armor that we put on. Right? It it it’s our protection, because we think that when I’m angry, I’m in I that I have now I’m in control of the situation because I’m being domineering with this. When in reality, And I would say the protection, the armor becomes your prison. Yeah. And I would say the protection, the armor becomes your prison. Yeah. And I would say the the protection piece is a is a big Well, and I would say the

Eric Deschamps:
protection, the armor becomes your prison in most cases. Yeah. Right? I I think there’s also this role expectation. Right?

Eric Deschamps:
This old school idea that, you know, to

Eric Deschamps:
be manly, you programming that’s been around for a very, very long time. And I would say, programming that’s been around for a very, very long time. And I would say that, really, when we think about the anger and the rage, anger is not bad. I mean, I remember, my coach, Sherry, telling me that I had a very complicated relationship with anger because I had, in in my earlier years, that anger was not good. I would lose my cool. I would yell. I would there’s times that even when my kids were younger, I was never abusive. I never but I I have a big voice, and and so if I raise my voice, I could be very intimidating.

Eric Deschamps:
And I wasn’t that was not my intention. But because I wasn’t managing emotion properly, there were moments where I even, made my kids feel very uncomfortable, scared, and they remember that. We still talk about it sometimes. Right? And I regret those moments. But it it’s because I didn’t, have the ability to express other emotions properly. That was the only way it would come out. And anger itself is not a bad emotion. Anger can be very powerful fuel when it’s properly channeled.

Eric Deschamps:
I think it gets polluted because there’s no other filter, and so all the emotions that you’re feeling get channeled as anger. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, it becomes this burning fire that can burn the whole house down. Right?

Rob Dale:
Alright. I’m ready to embrace emotion. I’m ready to I’m I’m ready to be uncomfortable. I want to figure out the positive sides of of of, emotional intelligence. I wanna be fully present to my emotions and all of that. What are some practical steps that we can take? And let me start with just the one that we really introduced at the beginning here, and that’s embracing mindfulness. Yeah. It’s it’s I I would say the starting point, at least for me, in in really coming into this was recognizing and understanding what was going through my head in these different situations.

Rob Dale:
Being able to explore why is it not a you know? So to now, I’m I’m the guy that I sit and I’ll cry watching a commercial. And I’m comfortable with that now where I wasn’t for the longest time.

Eric Deschamps:
Right.

Rob Dale:
Part of its age, but it’s, I was saying it before you said it.

Eric Deschamps:
I know I know that you were taking it.

Rob Dale:
Taking it. You know, but but I would say embrace the, and and really just embrace mindfulness around this as the starting point to to really making that shit. A 100%. What else?

Eric Deschamps:
Well well, I mean and and a little bit more on mindfulness. Like, again, like, getting present to what’s going on under the hood. Like, some kind of reflective practice where, to your point, you process what’s happening to you in life, especially the harder things in life that tend to lead to more negative emotions. You can’t just bottle that shit up. Like, emotions are like, think of traffic, right, on a highway. Well, when all the cars are moving smoothly, you you you can make great you can travel great distances and great time, and it’s it’s all working as intended. Right? But when there’s a traffic jam, when things get all bunched up right now, and you’re in, like, parking lot type traffic, well, now all it builds up is frustration and anger and, like, road rage and whatever else. Well, that’s what happens when emotions get bunched up, when they get all caught up with each other is is you experience this internal traffic jam.

Eric Deschamps:
So mindfulness helps you untangle that mess and get the traffic moving again. Right? Another one is I think both men and women could benefit from increasing their emotional literacy. Their I call it their emotional acuity. We don’t have the language. Right? You ask most people, how are you feeling? Bad. Good. Sad. Or yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
Usually, they say good or bad. I’m like, well, what does

Eric Deschamps:
good mean? What does bad mean? And and perhaps I can go as far okay. Like like, let’s talk about some of

Eric Deschamps:
the basic emotions. Bad, mad or sorry. Bad’s not one. Bad’s not an emotion. Mad, glad, and sad at least are emotions.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
But even that doesn’t really give you a sense of what you’re really experiencing. So a tool like the feelings wheel, that’s been a powerful tool for me. I’ve used it with so many of my clients where you can they go from saying, no. I’m mad to saying, no. I felt disrespected. Well, all of a sudden, that’s a very different expression of what you’re experiencing, and now you can unpack that. You can perhaps connect some dots that you couldn’t before. So increasing your emotional literacy by getting increasing your language, your ability to name the feeling, and and and then tame

Rob Dale:
it. And I love the the example that you you gave in in in our notes around the idea of the the the crayons in a coloring box. Right? The bigger the box, the more the colors.

Eric Deschamps:
Now Yeah. You know, again, I’m the kind of guy, hey.

Rob Dale:
What color is that? Blue?

Eric Deschamps:
Right? But there’s shades of blue. Right? There’s Like like indigo is different than navy.

Rob Dale:
Right? Navy blue. Is it baby blue? Is it right? It’s not royal blue. Like, there’s, and and and to be able the more you get into, the more specific you can get, and this is where we use this language around emotions, name it to tame it. Now not tame it as in to not allow it to happen, but name it so tame it so that it’s not controlling you, but you’re controlling that emotion, that you are recognizing when that emotion is good and when it’s not. Yep. I I do think journaling and some kind of reflection exercise, I often talk about this when I’m helping clients around productive conflict. It’s recognizing there are triggering moments, and often in the moment or early on when you’re starting this work, you’re gonna react the way you react. Yeah.

Rob Dale:
Now afterwards, look and go, okay. How did I react? Was that the best? What were some other ways I could have reacted? What was the scripts going through my mind at that moment? There’s some really good questions you can ask yourself in that reflective, time so that the next time it happens, you’re that much more equipped. And then the next time it happens, you’re more equipped.

Eric Deschamps:
100%. And there was a a great study out of Cambridge University that actually showed that journaling, especially about negative experiences in life, has a direct correlation to improve mental health and even physical health. I mean, it’s a great study. We’ll put it in the show notes. Another one is seeking therapy or coaching. I know we talk openly about, we have a coach who’s actually a therapist. We, we meet with her. Well, not together, but, we see her usually about monthly.

Rob Dale:
We we probably need couples counseling.

Eric Deschamps:
We need couples counseling at this point.

Eric Deschamps:
We’ll get Steve to help us. Yes, Steve. Steve. Hey. But, therapy and coaching can be a great way to have a a person who’s not involved in the weeds of your life help you process and talk through. If journaling doesn’t seem to be comfortable for you, a lot of guys struggle with that. I’m not quite sure why. I think it’s perhaps It’s the deer diary.

Eric Deschamps:
It’s the deer diary thing. I think I think that’s the correlation they make. But to me, journaling is really a powerful exercise. And I’m like, again, what are you afraid of? You might actually really benefit from not keeping a daily diary. But when you’re struggling with something, rather than bottle it up, try to just write about it. Even if you just write about the negative feelings you’re experiencing, you’re gonna feel some release. That helps with that motion that we were talking about earlier. But therapy and coaching can be another great place to talk it out with a nonjudgmental person who creates a safe, and sacred space for you just to show up as you are, and and not to try to fix you necessarily, but hear at least hear you out and give you some other perspectives to, again, complete the incomplete picture you may have about it.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. And we’ve said it, and I and I believe it. I’m not going to go so far as to say you can’t do this work, on your own. It’s And yet we will say this you can’t do this. Fucking hard to do it on your own, that you need that outside source who can see, and look at this objectively because when we’re in it, it’s just so hard to to do that. And and that thought goes to the last, kinda suggestion I would make, and that is find those people that you can use as examples that you can learn from. And, again, this is what I do appreciate that in society today, we seem to be creating and highlighting more leaders who are strong, stoic type people who are also embracing the emotion, and you you see that. And I so appreciate people like you know, I’ve read Arnold Schwarzenegger’s book.

Rob Dale:
I’ve I’ve followed his podcast. You see other guys like that that that are the the stronger people. There’s a bunch of documentaries, Sylvester Stallone. You got a number of them out there now that that men would see as men’s men who you see this really this this side of of embracing that vulnerability is is

Eric Deschamps:
At least they’re beginning to open the door.

Rob Dale:
They’re opening

Eric Deschamps:
the door. A 100%. So I I I think that’s really what it comes down to is seeking, those people who model, a a broader range of emotion. I’m not suggesting, you know, there are some folks that, listen, are emotionally I would I will use the word unstable. And by that, I mean, their emotions just get the better of them, and, they they they they don’t have really any mastery over them. And so they are like, they’re like waves in an ocean, man. They’re up. They’re down.

Eric Deschamps:
It’s it’s a pretty turbulent ride. That’s not what we’re suggesting here. But folks that are, find some people in your circle, that are more comfortable expressing appropriate emotion, and and observe. Get get get around that stuff, and you’ll become less uncomfortable with it, and it may help you expand your range.

Rob Dale:
Alright. Last question for you. Last, thought around this. What would you, what kind of final thoughts? What would you say to someone who’s listened to this, has kinda stuck around right to the end? They’re ready to do some of this stuff. What piece of advice would you give that, individual today?

Eric Deschamps:
If if you’re here watching the show and or listening to the show right now on many of the all the different platforms that we’re on, and you can really relate to being that stoic individual, that has perhaps gotten stuck emotionally, I would say just start. Just take some steps. Like, stop being afraid. There’s so many things. Fear will keep you bound, will keep you in the same situation that you’re in now. Things will not get better. Fear never leads. Typically, doesn’t lead long term fear.

Eric Deschamps:
Fear may be that even fear is an emotion, so there’s nothing wrong with fear. But as as we had get comfortable with that one too. But as we learn to channel it, let it inform our decisions. Well, if you’re feeling fear, if you’re feeling that your your cage got rattled by listening to the show today, then there’s perhaps something that you’ve been missing. Complete the picture. Don’t miss out on the color of life. Don’t limit yourself to black and white. There is so much more that you could experience if you’ll just give yourself

Rob Dale:
permission to start. So good. I so appreciate, these conversations, and we’re gonna continue them. I’m real excited with where we’re gonna be going next. We’re gonna hopefully be talking, in our next, focus on on mindful masculinity around shame. Yeah. Yeah. We’re talking about Flanagan.

Rob Dale:
That’s the plan is that we’re gonna have Kelly Flanagan on. So good afternoon, everyone. Back and to talk to us about that. I do wanna just thank everyone who has been listening, who’s followed along. Wanna encourage you to like, subscribe to the podcast. If you’re thinking of some people in your life that you feel would really benefit from an episode like this one, why don’t you share it out to them and just put a little personal note in there and let them know that you’d love for them to, to listen, to watch it, and then maybe even share their thoughts? We are so frigging excited about the Life Vision Challenge. We’re talking about it. It’s all over our social medias.

Rob Dale:
We wanna encourage you. What a great way to start to figure out who you are and what truly matters to you so you can become the kind of man that you wanna be or the women that you wanna be. For those of you that are listening, wanna encourage you, you can find out all the information about the Life Vision Challenge at our website, living richly dot me. All kinds of other information there including the link to our Facebook group, the the the Living Rich Lee Nation. So check out the website and check out the challenge. Until next time, we wanna encourage you to get out there and continue to live your very best life.

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