We’ve all heard the expression “Practice makes perfect,” trying to get across the idea that you have to work at things to get better. And while we agree with that, the adage itself is flawed. Practice doesn’t make perfect — all it does is makes things permanent.
All of us have practices. The question is: what kind of life are you “practicing”? What are your current practices producing?
Show Notes for Episode 16
Getting our Rituals right — for us — means getting aligned to who we really are.
So a great place to start is with a reminder about the essential role of Radical Self Acceptance. We unpacked that in detail in Episode 8 so if you’d benefit from a refresher go back and take a listen.
In this episode we gushed about Robin Sharma’s book The 5am Club at the same time that we shared some warnings about always balancing models (including anything we say!) with what works in your life. It’s got to work for YOU!
Episode 16: Practice Makes Permanent
Anytiime that you have to serve the ritual instead of the ritual serving you, you’re probably in a bad place.
Rob Dale, Eric Deschamps, Trefor Munn-Venn
Anytime that you have to serve the ritual instead of the ritual serving you, you’re probably in a bad place.
Hi there and welcome to the Living Richly Podcast. My name is Rob Dale, and I’m here with my great friends, Eric Deschamps and Trefor Munn-Venn.. And, uh, we want to thank you for, uh, joining us on this journey. Some of you have been around since episode one, and we so deeply appreciate, uh, that you have taken this journey with us.
Uh, some of you, you might be just discovering this, uh, In this episode, and, uh, you’re kind of figuring out what the heck are, uh, these three guys doing, talking about this idea of living richly. If you are new to the, uh, podcast, encourage you to take, uh, listen to episodes one and two, where we, uh, unpack a little bit of the idea of what we’re gonna be doing and exploring throughout these, uh, three, uh, episodes.
And, uh, throughout, just all of these conversations encourage you to do that. If you’ve been with us on this journey for a while. We really do, as I’ve mentioned already, appreciate uh, the fact that you are, uh, taking this journey with us. And one of the things you could do to help us get the word out more to others is to leave a review.
Oh yeah. Good one. Whether it’s a great one, like a good review, five star review, and maybe a few comments. About what it is that, uh, has been speaking to you, whatever podcast format you’re listening to it, or if you’re watching it on the YouTube channel, uh, just take a moment, even hit pause right now and take a moment just to kind of leave a review, see, remember to do it.
And we really do appreciate it. It’s just another way that we can. Of course, expand our reach and get the message out to as many people as we can around the no, the notion or the concept of, of living richly living your best life. Uh, today we’re gonna be talking well, and let me just add, if, if you’re brand new and you haven’t listened, what you can do is a bit of an experiment.
What you could do is right now you could leave a preemptive. vote for what you think it’s going to be and what you think you’re going to hear, and then you can listen to the whole thing and you can leave another one. So you could actually do two of them. That’s really good for us. Wow. I don’t think it does anything for others, but I don’t know.
I see encouraging gambling. Is this something, is this like a gambling mentality? Sort of like roll the dice and see what you get. Such a difference actually. The reviews make a huge, they really massive difference. Please leave review if you’re willing to that That would be amazing. Yeah. That, yeah. Would be.
And, uh, we again appreciate it so much. Mm-hmm. , uh, and, and all the comments. Uh, we’ve been receiving, uh, emails and comments directly. We’ve been seeing them on some of the different platforms people have been leaving public comments. Uh, wow. Uh, it has been so encouraging. I know that. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you. We have often, uh, shared them with each other when it’s been sent to one of us. Uh, and we, we do, we just pause and. Is why we’re doing this. It, it really has been, uh, so rewarding to know that so many people have been enjoying this. We had people, uh, you know, uh, one individual who posted a picture of, uh, I’m listening to the episode while sitting on the beach on, on their vacation.
That’s right. Uh, I think that was great. Thank you, Andrea, for, for posting that and, and for others who have been, did somebody yell at you in the dog? Said, and then at the, yeah, I’ve taken my dog to the dog park. Somebody kind of, uh, the, the person who owns that, uh, that private park was saying, oh, I’ve been listening to the, uh, the podcast and so, so many of you.
And we just again, deeply appreciate all of the comments. It makes this so, uh, worthwhile. We really began it because we wanted a place to just figure out our journey. Yeah. Uh, and to know that so many are taking it. Uh, is, is just so deeply appreciated. Uh, so yes, today we’re going to be talking about, uh, rituals.
Uh, and we’re going to be kind of focusing in on, on, uh, what are some of the rituals that we are developing within our lives in order to, to live richly now. For some, this would be kind of starting point. Uh, we start with rituals. Uh, you set a New Year’s Eve, you know, new Year’s, you set a a resolution and what do you do?
You set a ritual to try to achieve whatever resolution, right? So if I, if I wanna lose weight, get healthy, then I’m gonna join, start eating healthy, whatever, and we, we go right to the ritual without all this, why the hell did it take us 16 episodes to finally start talking about actions? In fairness, we could have done it in.
Yeah, we’re, and we are easily distracted. Yeah. It took us a while. We know when people go to rituals first, it really doesn’t work. Right, right. We got the data. 91%. , 91% within days, it falls off. So we know that’s actually not the answer. And it’s not because rituals don’t work, it’s because we have to connect into something more deeply.
Right? And that’s what we’ve been actually spending this time to say. We need to understand why we’re doing what we’re doing, where it’s coming from. Then we can actually align rituals to who we are, what we value, the life we need, we need and want to be living right in our, in our own. But if it’s not connected to anything, it’s not gonna work.
Right. Right. And we know it doesn’t work. Yeah. And for us in the journey, this is why it started with defining our core values, right? When we look at the, when you get really clear on what really matters to you, what is central to your life, uh, and then you figure out, uh, the second part was figuring out what.
What fills your cup? What are the things that you do personally and professionally that make you happy, that make that, that literally fill you, enrich you? Uh, and then we’ve been talking, spending several episodes unpacking sort of the third layer of all this, which is exposing yourself, uh, to the four elements.
I’m glad you finished that sentence, , because halfway through, halfway through, was it, was it awkward, concerning, just exposing myself? Weren’t sure where I was going. Uh, but exposing ourself to the elements in terms of, uh, uh, looking at the four traditional elements throughout time, uh, throughout history, uh, and, and using them as a format to sort of create this vision of what does my best self look like.
Um, and, and now once you’ve done that, then the fourth layer becomes, now that I’m clear on those things, or I’m becoming more clear than I ever have, what are the rituals practices? That I need to put into place and nurture to support that kind of life. So a again, the, the, the traditional approach is to go to rituals first or, or practice first.
Uh, but a, as you said, just so well, a moment ago, it’s, it’s kind of asked backwards. It, we haven’t really answered the why question, and that’s why often those decisions that we make have no staying power. They’re not resilient enough to weather daily life, and so we quickly abandon them and go back to what we’re used to.
So we’ve, we’ve laid that foundation, we’ve, we’ve really looked at the why. We’ve talked about all of these different, uh, components to the living richly, and now we have landed on this idea of the practices, the rituals, and we want to talk about that during our time together today. Um, perhaps I’ll, I’ll start with, uh, a.
A phrase that we often hear when we look at formulating rituals or getting good at things. Uh, it’s a phrase that we probably all uttered or used at different times. Practice makes perfect. Hmm, hmm. Uh, let’s talk a little bit about that. I don’t think any of us necessarily agree with that. Phrase, but we use that when it comes to creating rituals, creating uh, uh, you know, again, practices or creating those act actions, the activities that will help us to live richly.
We often look at them and think, okay, they have to be perfect. They have to be, we have to get it right. We have to do it all. Well, uh, talk to me a little bit about the notion of practice makes. Well, well, the, that, that statement in and of itself, I get what it’s trying to say. If you practice something, typically, if you bring the attention and the focus required, you will improve.
Right? You, uh, take, take any sport you take on, or, or any hobby that you, you start that where, where it’s new to you. The practice or the regular, the, the regular consistent approach to it all will help you improve If you’re focused on that, uh, I find the phrase, especially in this context of developing the rituals and the practices that are gonna support your best life problematic because again, practice makes perfect.
This whole journey is not about perfection, , it’s not about performance. And I know for me, for so long, I struggled so deeply with self-care strategies and, and, and rituals that would help me be better or, or feel better and, and be healthier because I thought I had to nail them. I, I thought, Here’s another thing I have to master.
Uh, and because I couldn’t, then I feel like I’m failing at that. So what would I do? Go back to what I was used to, which is performance mentality and, uh, my, the, the work and throwing myself into things where I felt more confident. So it’s decided your practice makes perfect. Really doesn’t fit into what we’re talking about here, because I think at its very essence when we come to, when it comes to building, These rituals, these habits, these practices, you actually have to give yourself permission to not do them well, to do poorly, to just take them one step at a time.
Uh, and understand that it’s not about getting an A plus, it’s not about right. Like success in that, in in those terms. You’ll, you’ll laugh at this. Uh, and thinking about the notion of performance when it comes to some of these rituals, I remember. First started journaling, and this would’ve been back even in church days, you know, doing this kind of, it was, it was a big thing.
That’s a long time ago for you now. Yeah, it was, but I, I’m, I’m an old man, , uh, and, uh, the notion don’t go there. Don’t go there either. One of you, you gave us a perfect opening. It was a softball, right? Too much to work. Uh, you’re gonna prra practice, practice being better guys. Uh, and, and the notion of, I was journaling and, and, but I could never be, In my journaling because I would journal with the idea that someone, even after I’m gone, my kids whatever, will read this.
Right? These will be notebooks on the shelf in my home that somebody will pull off and look at. So I would, I was performing even in my private Wow. turnover. Right? Right. Uh, and and to your point, Because we weren’t, I, I, because I felt like it had to be spot on. It had to be perfect. It had to be all of those things, uh, that I couldn’t, it wasn’t until I, I freed myself of the perfection idea that you could then be real and raw with that stuff.
Perfection’s. Brutal. Yeah, it’s brutal and it’s an abstract concept, so it doesn’t actually. And yet we’re, so we’re chasing things that don’t even exist and putting so much pressure on ourselves to say, okay, how do I need to act here? And I have to do it perfectly and if I’m not getting it perfect there.
There’s also an element where I think this is why people quit because we’ve been told practice makes perfect, like I’m practicing, but I’m not perfect. I must be doing it wrong. And then I think it goes to worth issues, goes, ah, it must be. Right, right. I, I, I think like you, Eric, I think, I think the intent is very often the message is if you practice, you’ll get better at things.
Maybe, and it’s a message parents give to their kids all the time. Say, practice makes perfect and they throw it out there. And I think that’s the intention, but it, it has, there’s an undertone to it, and as it steps into this context, it really does not serve at all because the goal is not perfection. The goal is reality.
right. The goal is authenticity. The goal is who am I and what do I need and my life need not what is some abstract definition of what perfect would look like in these circumstances right now? And now I have to embrace it for all time. I’m like, it doesn’t work that way. Yeah. This is not another trophy for your bookcase.
This is not another check mark in your spreadsheet of successes and if if approach them, do you have a spreadsheet of successes? No, I don’t. I just made that up. I just made. Oh, no, no, just you can download it into download. It’ll note, note yourself. Delete my spreadsheet, . I just, I just added that to my task.
But if we approach it, it’s just another thing to be conquered, another thing to be mastered, another thing to be perfected. Again, we’re setting ourselves up for failure, uh, and for serious disappointment. And, and so giving yourself permission to fail, giving yourself permission to do it poorly, giving your per yourself permission.
Figure it out little by little, slowly by slowly, I think is at the very heart of developing, uh, and, and living your richest life and setting up the, as we’re gonna explore today, the, the practices that are going to help you get better. Now, there’s another element here, uh, you know, that we’ve been bantering back and forth.
I was just about to say, let me, let me change one word in that phrase. Can, can, yeah. I change, go ahead. Go ahead. So instead of practice makes perfect practice. Uh, permanent. Who said that? You said that yet tra so, so I threw that out and the guy said like, are you sure all really do you mean that? And it’s.
And the answer is yes and no. . The answer is yes and no. Wow. You sound like a consultant. Yeah. It depends. It depends. Yes, it depends. Sorry, I’m drinking coffee. The, uh, this, for those of you watching on YouTube, the none of this show is sponsored by Tim Horton’s, the, uh, . But be happy be to take their sponsorship
That was so bad. You know, it sound desperate. He’s gonna be editing because redemption didn’t respond. Redemption never even responded. Us. We haven’t given up on them yet. No. The the notion of, uh, practice makes permanent is really around, first off, practice does not make perfect. And in fact, it doesn’t even guarantee you’re gonna be better repetition.
Which is what most people associate with practice will make things stick, right? The things we do over and over, the things that become more natural. So we can talk about muscle memory and how that works. Uh, we can talk about the scripts that we repeat over and over, and now that’s the notion for me around practice really makes permanent, it makes things stay.
Um, but. Where the shift is, is where we start to look and say, well, not if we’re observing it, not if we’re gauging it, not if we’re assessing it and adapting. Right. And this is where the perfection piece again, is so critical we, and doesn’t serve us cuz we need to look and say this behavior that I have or have had for a long time.
is it serving me? Right? A a and, and so this is why the, the, the steps, Eric, that you described earlier are so critical because they’re our metric to, to say, does this serve me or not? Right. And if it doesn’t serve us, if we have rituals or, you know, we’ll, we’ll get into rituals in a minute. Yeah. But it’s kind of a, a flavor of practices in a way.
If those practices are not serving what is core and central, you will not. , right? It’s, we, there’s that notion we will always, always, always, always meet our needs. The only question is, will we do it in healthy ways or unhealthy ways? And if these are practices that are not aligned to who we really are, we’re probably meeting our needs in unhealthy ways.
Right. Yeah, that makes sense. And so, and so, let me throw something else out. Uh, if, if perfectionism and performance. Very unhealthy in this type of approach that we’re discussing. Let’s talk about the danger of dogma and the fallacy of formula for a moment, shall we? This whole notion of do it this way, where in today’s culture, uh, you know, there’s all kinds, again, a great people in the self-help sort of world that are putting out some amazing content about, right?
Like, we’re just stepping into this arena now publicly, we’ve been doing this for a. In our business. Yeah. But coming out publicly with our own journey and sharing our own thoughts on how to live your best life. Uh, but there, I, I’m a little bit allergic, uh, to anyone who says it looks like this. In other words, here’s what I’ve done.
To better my life and live to my fullest potential. And if you are going to live your best life, then you must follow the formula. Let me pick on a really popular one, shall I? And I’d love to hear your thoughts. So, uh, love Robin Sharma, love, love law, Robin Sharma’s stuff, his 5:00 AM club book. Very, very popular.
And actually I would highly recommend you read it. It’s a great, great read that dives into many of. Uh, things that we’re talking about here, where I have an issue with it is how it becomes a little bit too formulaic for me, right? He comes up with this actually great strategy for anyone who’s looking to start building, uh, some better habits into their life.
Uh, he’s got this 20, 20, 20 formula, right? You spend. First hour of your day, 20 minutes in rigorous exercise, uh, 20 minutes reviewing your goals and uh, right, like what you’re trying to accomplish that week, and then 20 minutes reading something inspirational or something that you can learn from. Right? 20 20 20.
Great model. Doesn’t work for everybody. Um, number one, cuz it’s at 5:00 AM and now I’m an early riser. Uh, so early morning rituals are one thing, but I’m curious what you guys think about this whole formulaic, sort of dogmatic approach to things that when people are saying this is, this is the way walkie in it.
Well it’s, it’s interesting. Another example that I would use, that you guys know that, that I’m a fan of, uh, that works for me is, uh, some of these challenges like 75 hard. You know, now done a couple of times. Uh, and, uh, Wendy and I, you know, we, we, we really do like the challenges together. We find they, they work.
Um, you go on the 75 hard Facebook group, there’s a kind of a fan group that they gun them together and oh my God. I mean, if you, if you even suggest. Even a slight kind of, oh, I’m doing this, you’ll have about a hundred people. You’re completely doing it wrong. And take all the joy and the fun or the, the, you know, encouragement, enthusiasm out of it because they’re so regulated and, and it’s so rigid in its approach that it, it doesn’t work because most people just give up or whatever because of that, uh, idea.
So I think absolutely anytime that you have to serve the ritual. Instead of the ritual serving you, you’re probably in a bad place. Oh, that’s good. That’s good. Wow. I just made that up. I, wow, that’s pretty good. Yeah, but I’m gonna put it on the internet and it with my name. . Yeah. . Harvard Business. Harvard Business.
That’s so good. Yeah. That’s so good. Right? A and I think, like I’m listening to, to you YouTube, cause I, I hadn’t really thought of it in those terms before, Eric, so it’s a, it’s a really good question. You know, you used Robin Sharma as an example, and there’s a, there’s a host of them out there, so it’s, we all like Robin Sharma.
Love him. Absolutely. Uh, um, Eric loves Rob Sharma. I like him The . I, I think he’s okay. Rob is terrible. Fond. I’d like him a lot more if he came on the show . He might not have I made that. I don’t. So sorry Robin. I feel like there’s two dynamics playing out around that because I think there is danger in dogma.
Mm-hmm. Uh, really because of what you just said, Rob. Mm-hmm. And said so beautifully. I’m can hang on to that. The rest of my life, I think, is, on one hand you have people who want to help and on other hand you’ve got a desire from, uh, say, uh, the community. For some kind of certainty, right? I just need something that works and, and I think, you know, Robin’s stuff is 5:00 AM Club really does work.
Yeah. For a whole bunch of people. Whether you’re that people, those people, I don’t know the, I mean that’s something to gauge but that’s why we kind of started a little bit further back is cuz it gives you the tools to be able to say, which of this speaks to me and works within the context that is uniquely me.
And every once in a while, The version that’s uniquely me will align with the version that’s uniquely you. And we’ll go, Hey, we got the same. We’re both up early, like this is great. Right. That kind of thing. But I think when it, sometimes that nuance gets lost and actually I, I, it is my deep belief that Robin totally gets that actually.
Yeah, absolutely. He’s such a savvy, savvy guy. But also it’s to say, how do I help people take action? How do I help people find it? And so what we want to make sure is that everyone has the nuance that goes with that, so that in fact, the rituals are serving them, the practices are serving them, rather than you’re just kind of like, I don’t know.
I’m getting up early and I’m doing this stuff. I, I, I don’t, I don’t know. It doesn’t, doesn’t fit. It doesn’t fit. Right. Uh, take a single mom with three kids, right? Getting up at fi again, we don’t, not picking on, uh, the, the 5:00 AM club, but, uh, some of the rituals suggested there just aren’t practical.
They’re not realistic. And when we try to fit into any formula, whether it’s uh, 5:00 AM Club or any other formula out there that says, do it this way, uh, you know, there’s an old Bible. I’ll, I’ll skip it for now, but, uh, David and Goliath, right? Yes. Where David is encouraged to put on the king’s armor to go fight this giant.
Mm-hmm. But it doesn’t fit him, right? So he doesn’t, he, he, he makes the savvy call to say, no, I can’t use this. It doesn’t work for me. And I think when we’re looking at building your best life and the practices are gonna support it, one has to. Explore one has to be open. I think there are principles that we can learn from other people’s journey, other people’s attempts or, or, or practice that, that may inspire us.
But you really have to figure out what works for you and what I loved, uh, I read this recently and it was in the Practice of Groundedness by Brad Stulberg. We’re gonna put that one in the show notes book. It’s an. Book Highly, highly recommend. It’s actually, uh, the book I’ll recommend probably for this episode and the next two, uh, because it speaks to all of which, uh, of what we’re gonna be, uh, discussing.
And Brad, if you’re free next Friday, we would love to have you on the show. Just so you know, I would love to have you on the show, uh, just such a great rate read, but he talks about in, uh, in Buddhist, uh, philosophy, you are constantly building up your practic. , then you’re tearing it down to build it up again.
So even something that works for you, uh, during a particular season of your life, may not be in sync with another chapter. And that’s why we’re talking about core rituals. It’s not a formula. We, we warned you, uh, folks, right at the beginning of this journey that if you were looking for a easy button or a quick fix or a hack your way to your.
This is not the show for you. What we are presenting is elements, stories, lessons learned principles for you then to say, what does that look like authentically for me, and what are the steps I might take? That make sense for where I’m at right now? that are gonna help me start living a richer life. You know, it’s interesting when you talk about that, I, I think of practice makes natural in the sense that, uh, the more you practice, he’s on fire today.
You were on fire. Thank you. And I’m thinking, I, I, if I, if I use a sports, if I use a, like the sports analogy, you have a, a. You know, a goal tender in a hockey team is going to all their prob if they’ve started playing hockey as a teenager, as even younger than that. In nets. There’s a lot of things that are completely natural and normal.
And sometimes I I, when, when I heard you say this about, uh, this idea of you, sometimes you build up the practice to tear it down. Sometimes what that goal tend, if they’re going through a funk, they’re going through a struggle. The goal tending coach will actually tear down those. Those, uh, rituals that have become habitual in order to build them back up in a, sometimes just a, a slight tweak to all of a sudden allow that goaltender to have the success that they want.
They’re so natural at certain things that they realize that they’re no longer serving them. That’s fascinating. That really fascinat, that’s fascinating, and I think this is what we’re after is this notion when we talk core rituals, at least for me, and I think you guys are, are on the same page, I believe so that it’s about a core set of practices.
It’s not one particular thing that you do because again, that if, if it’s, if you’re, you’re, you’re kind of pinning all of your joy and self-care on one or two strateg. Those may fall outta sync with the chapter that you’re currently in. What we’re talking about is a set of rituals. Mm-hmm. , a set of practices that are core to you and that word core, right.
Being an acronym for central to your life, observable by others, relevant to the current chapter of the life that, of life that you’re living and that are evolving. Right. Uh, so when you have a, a set of rituals, then what they look like at any given time may like, they may look very different from. Uh, you know, like one month to the next.
But you’re borrowing from those set of practices and adapting, what do I need in this moment to keep my tank full? Yeah. So let me ask this, the, because we said we don’t wanna force ourselves into, into these things, right? If we’re forcing ourselves to embrace a, a practice or a ritual, how do we distinguish between when I’m forcing myself to do it and when I’m growing and it’s uncomfortable and doesn’t feel natural, right?
It’s a great question, Rob. Well, this is why we, yeah, thanks . Rob said practice makes natural, it seems like his question. It’s, it’s his question, . Well, this is where, why it’s so important. Sequence matters. Hmm. This is why we went on this journey together over the first 15 episodes and why it took us 16 episodes to get to this.
Point, right? Is because if, uh, they may be uncomfortable, they may be a challenge to, to, to get in, build habits into your life, these, some of these rituals. But if you are not, if you don’t have the why, then first, right? If you haven’t established through those, all of the stuff that we’ve been talking about up to this point, uh, then the rituals will fall flat.
Uh, and so they need to be built. All of the other work that we’ve, we’ve talked about in the first 15 episodes, right? And I think when you are clear on what’s really important to you, what really matters, you’ve got a vision of what your best self looks like, right? That, that best version of you, then you may not feel like, uh, getting up and meditating.
You may not feel. Like working out a particular day. And, and if that’s the case, like give yourself permission, but there’s also times where I need to push through that, right. And put and say, okay, but this is important to me. And because I’m clear on the end goal or what I’m, I’m clear on the direction of my life.
I am actually gonna push myself today, uh, to do it because I know that it matters to me. It’s important to me. Uh, so again, this, this is why the sequence to your point is so, so important. When you have the foundation, I think you will have the staying power to push through discomfort. Cuz anything new will be uncomfortable, right?
Yes. So, uh, uh, you know, take any new practice and we’re gonna get into some practical actual rituals and practices that have been meaningful for us, um, in a moment. Uh, it there, it’s gonna be uncomfortable at first cuz it. Um, uh, now it’s a lot less uncomfortable if you drop the perfectionism and you drop the performance, right?
Like, uh, cuz you’re, you’re not setting yourself up for this, this, uh, this sort of false expectation. Um, and you also have the resilience to push through those moments where you’re just not feeling as motivated. All you need to do is go tap back into all that work that we talked about before, and all of a sudden you find your motivation pretty quickly, right?
Um, uh, and, and that’s where ritual. Help bind everything back, like it circles back. Right? Because our rituals are ways of taking those things we value so much and putting them into motion. And so they, they keep them front and center for us in an action based way. Mm-hmm. . So it’s not just love that an intellectual exercise.
Thinking about or imagining what a good life, best life, richest life would be like. It’s to actually take it into motion and then through those practices, cuz rituals are there to, rituals are, in my mind, practices, um, packed full of meaning. So it’s not just repetition, right? Because there’s like the mindless repetition.
Some things we just do over and over. It has meaning attached to it. The great thing is we get to assign the meaning, right, right. Flowing out of these things and then while we live out the practices that are associated with that, meaning, it then reinforces, you know, the, all of the, all of the right things.
All of the things that we’ve architected, we’ve crafted, we’ve authored in our own lives, and it, and it helps, keeps us aligned with us. Trevor just started, uh, given definition of ritual, um, and, and I loved how you just worded that. How would you, uh, what would you add to that? What’s a ritual for you? So, I, I, it was interesting in preparation for today’s, cuz we used the word, we’ve been using the words practice today and we’ve used it between the three of us.
In our conversations around this, we’ve talked about rituals for me, uh, rituals a much stronger word than practice, but the actual definition of a ritual is any practice or pattern of behavior. Regularly performed in a sudden manner. So it’s that this is something important to me that I do over and over and over again.
I love your definition cause it keeps it front and center, not just in the dream and hope world. Right. Right. Because anybody can want certain things. Right. Uh, but if you don’t get into action, they just. Remain in the world of hopes and wishes. Um, a practice is repeated performance or systematic exercise for the purpose of acquiring skill or proficiency.
So actually, in, in its, in its core definition, the term practice actually means bringing focus to it to get better at it. . Right. Uh, uh, so, so it kind of, right, so the two, yeah. You can see, I’m thinking there, the, the, the words that you just shared that were really got me was that notion of acquiring proficiency.
Right, right. Not perfection. Right. where, which, which I like, and then I’m like, The ritual, it’s like it reveals self. It’s not about quite acquiring the proficiency. I, I could probably make the argument, but there’s, there’s like this other dimension floating with it. Right. It was a much more loaded word for me.
Yeah. That’s why for me, right outta the gate, it was like core rituals. Yeah. That helped me, again, build the life that I envision. Uh, it, it just had an element of, well, almost you, you talk about rituals usually sort of in a religious context or a spiritual context. Uh, it’s often used in, in, in major religions.
They talk about religious ritual. And so we’re not talking about religious ritual here, but it’s this notion, again, this really, really important and these practices that are now rituals for me. Are, are, are marking in time, uh, uh, regularly of me bringing those things to life, right? And working towards those things.
Rituals or practices. Take time. , uh, shall we go there? Yep. So what do you say to the person who says, I haven’t got the time to do this? So two things. Can I? He’s ready to preach. Am I? Oh, go. Yeah, yeah. Oh, go. Yeah. . This is gonna be great. This is gonna be great. I think I know where at least one of them’s head.
Yeah. So let me start with where, where you might not think, or you, you might be expecting me to start. Where somewhere else. Let me, let me start here. If you’re watching this show and you’re a single parent with young children, or you’re in a season of your life where you’re in a high stress job and you don’t have a lot of available time.
Let’s reali. Let’s face it. There are seasons of our lives where disposable time are, they’re a luxury, right? Um, and I think sometimes, uh, people in those types of contexts might listen to something like this and they walk away. Pretty shitty. They walk away feeling like, I can’t, I can barely, I’m barely just getting by right now.
Right? These guys just don’t get what I’m going through. Like, listen, I remember being, you know, like young kids and business and everything else. Um, and like, it, it’s hard, like it’s hard to make that time. So like, go easy on yourself, be kind to yourself and be asking rather than, again, it has to look a certain.
what does it look like for me during this season of my life? What are, what are steps, even small ones I might take first to get clear on all the stuff we’ve been talking about, right? Uh, earlier on. Uh, and then what are the rituals? What are one or two things I might start doing, uh, that might help me lean into that more intentionally?
But here’s where like we, we’ve mentioned this before on average , there are tons of studies out there, and if you don’t believe me, you can type it into Google or your new favorite chat, G P T. And I believe the chat G P T will give you this answer as well. On average, all the studies show that the average North American person, um, Canadian or American, the stats are the same, has on average four to five hours daily of disposable time.
So it’s not about like we are all practicing something. Right. Ah-huh . It’s, it’s exactly right. We are all practicing something. A lot of us in North America with our fascination with technology, our fascination with devices, our fascination with social media. We are practicing being digital zombies. We are spending so much time on our devices.
Numbing ourselves, distracting ourselves, escaping reality in many ways, while not engaging with our own life. Uh, so to someone saying that, I, again, I, with the first thing that I said, still in place if you’re in a season Yeah, don’t lose that. Don’t lose that. Cuz I, I, last thing I wanna do is make anyone here feel badly about themselves if they’re in that season.
Right now, if you’re a young parent or a parent with young children, that is your spiritual practice, give us a call. We’ll come hell Rob, come, hell Robbie, to babysit , right? But that is in many ways your spiritual practice. You are investing. in those little ones in a pretty massive way. And, and that in itself is legacy.
It’s important, it’s powerful and often forgotten in this conversation. But if you’re not in that place, I would say if you don’t think you have time, start looking at how you’re spending your time. And my encouragement would to, to, to you would be, how might I start dialing down the volume on those mind numbing activities that I.
And how might I just start turning up the volume on, on actually meaningful activities that move my life forward in the direction that I envision for. And, and, and maybe can I encourage, please? Those that are That was great. That was a good preach buddy. Uh, I can’t guarantee there won’t be more. And there’ll be an offering later too.
Uh, the uh, and an call , Rob’s gonna offer something later. No. Some of some of our listeners, and this is what I appreciate so much about the community that we are building through this, because there will be some single parents with young children who will say, oh, whoa, Eric. Don’t put me in that I’m, I’ve got all kinds of great rituals, or I can get up at 5:00 AM and I do.
That’s, that’s my best time because the kids aren’t up at 5:00 AM and so that’s what I do. So what I would encourage, and this is what we, we are hoping to see happen through the living richly. This model in the community is if you are listening in your, somebody who maybe relates to that kind of a scenario and you.
These practices and these rituals that you have developed, share them. Share how you’re doing it. Because there might be somebody else who truly and deeply appreciates, uh, hasn’t thought of some of the things that others are doing to have their rituals serve them. Absolutely. And I would say share it, but share it in a way that is not dogmatic.
Share Sheridan Way, this not formula. In other words, this works for me, so you need to do the following. It’s, it’s a, i I think people resist that as soon as, uh, listen, even children don’t like to be told what to do. Adults, even less so. And I think sometimes when, and I, I’m prone to this and I’ve had to really work on this.
I’m, I get passionate about stuff that’s important to me. Yeah. And in the sharing of that, sometimes what can come across is, well, you’ve gotta do it this way. And we wanna be so clear on today’s episode. It’s, you know, is it Frank Sina? . I did it my way. . I think that would be a great actually mantra. Rod would know.
Rod would know, right? That’s that He was your favorite growing up. And yes, it was, was Teen Idol for you? Teen Idol for you.
But I think that notion of it’s really figuring it out. Like share your journey, share what is working for you, but understand it’s not gonna work for everybody. Uh, and don’t try to push that, uh, uh, in, in that manner. You know, there’s. Rituals aren’t always about major consumptions of time. So, uh, my daughter at, at bedtime, we, no, in every night, like from, uh, finding Nemo with the, the little fish or No, the, the little, uh, tortoises bump heads and they go Nogging.
And that’s our little thing. And so it’s this moment we have every night at bedtime where we do this little gentle no. And it’s a connection. That’s her and I, and it’s funny, the boys and I didn. It’s a Naomi and I think, but it’s a ritual we share. Right. Love that it doesn’t take time. Right, right. I have a ritual which, which Dr.
Sherry taught me cuz I, I would struggle with any kind of compliment and so she taught me a ritual, which is if someone compliments me, I will put my hand on my heart and say thank you. I appreciate that. You’re looking really good today, Trav. Thank you. I appreciate that. You’re a jerk. the . The, did she teach you to add that last I, that doesn’t sound, sound like Sherry.
Sound like Jerry. That was totally me. Oh, whoa. I was bringing all, oh, you’re letting theri, you are letting the ritual serve you. Letting the ritual serve. But it’s interesting. We’re gonna break into song now because that, that ritual is actually a, a self-affirming ritual. It, it’s one that’s overriding some scripts that I’ve had in other places.
It’s invisible to others and it takes zero. , right? So not all rituals require complex allocations of time. So, you know, for those who, if you’ve got, if you’re so time constrained, that’s okay. , it’s about how are you doing things and can you introduce more meaning to the actions that you’re taking? Right?
And sometimes it’s, it’s just ritual about how are we looking at our activities, right? If we go, I’m not just making another lunch, I’m, you know what? I get to nourish my child here and I love my child. And it’s not about, I hate lunches. I have to do it every day. It’s like, how do I nourish my child? You change that question, you turn it into a.
Because you have assigned a new meaning to a practice, right? Yeah. My, my partner Kate would say it’s the difference between I have to do that, I have to make my kid lunch right now, or, or I get to, to make them lunch right now. That whole uh, that whole mind shift is so, so important. And I would add that I love that, that you talked about a self.
Affirming ritual for you. Right. Uh, cuz cuz often, uh, we’re so hard on ourselves and we’ve talked a lot about this on this, uh, show so far. Uh, when you, when you think of building your best life and the accompanying rituals and practices you’re gonna need to support that. Um, the first place you’ve gotta start, if I can come back to something we, we’ve mentioned in previous episodes is that you actually deserve.
Yes. Right, right. Like if you don’t believe that you deserve it. If you are going let, let’s take physical exercise. If, if for you, the earth element and you’re wanting to tune up your, your, your. If you’re doing that because you have a vision of having more energy and more stamina and feeling better about yourself and showing up better, like for your kids and having all that stuff, that’s fantastic if you’re doing it because you should do it or have to do it, or must do it if you’re doing it out of guilt or condemnation or even self-hatred self.
That’s not gonna work. It’s not gonna work like it’s anything done out of guilt, fear or shame is not going to work. You’re actually reinforcing bad thinking. So go right back to when we talked about where did diss all start? Radical self-acceptance. It starts with beginning to accept yourself. Love yourself more and be kinder to yourself.
From there, self-care becomes easier when you don’t accept yourself. Anything that looks like self-care is almost dismissed and is treated as unimportant because everything else matters more than you. And that’s why often I think a lot of folks I know, I struggled with it for years, self-care. People would tell me all the time that you really need to slow down, Eric.
You really need to get a. What they were saying is, Eric, you’re a train wreck and if you keep going , right? Like, you’re gonna, you’re gonna go right off the rails. And I would look at them and say, yeah, okay. Like my mind could acknowledge, yeah, I, I’m working too hard and Yep. Not taking care of myself, but because I, there was so much deep self-loathing going on, right?
It didn’t even make sense for me to do those things. Um, and so let me just throw that out there. I just thought it was important to throw it in, in this conversation and say again, I think radical self-acceptance is work. We’re never quite done. I think we continue to engage in that throughout our lifetime, but there’s a measure of it required.
Before you can really take significant steps. And so if you’re, if you’re struggling with that at a pretty significant level, I’d encourage you to go back to episode, I think is episode eight where it all starts, uh, radical self-acceptance. You may have some work to do there, which is some of the most freeing.
Life giving work you’ll ever do. Uh, and that’ll lay the foundation for some of the stuff we’re talking about. We’ll put that in the show notes, uh, a link to that episode, um, and make sure that we’ve got the right, uh, number, uh, for that, for that one. Um, and, uh, you know, encourage again, as you’ve said, to invite other to, to listen to that if you haven’t or even maybe.
Have another listen, uh, to it. Uh, and a reminder, it is so critical and so important, the notion of being able to, uh, we, we begin to protect these rituals when we recognize the importance they are to self. And when we accept that, no, I, I deserve having these, then we begin to protect them. They, they are not as quick for us to give up, uh, for the sake of others cuz we recognize that by doing them, we are a better version of ourselves, a healthier.
Living richly to be able to then help others, uh, on their journey and to be able to serve others in whatever capacity that might be. I’m, I’m so glad you brought that up, cuz I want to kind of go back to something I said in a previous episode, and this is almost like me correcting myself in a real time because my view on it has shifted.
So in a previous episode I said that I, I thought selflessness was bullshit. Um, because for so long my interpretation of selflessness was no. , right? Self didn’t really make the radar. Selflessness is beautiful when it’s done right. Uh, right. I think we need more selflessness and self-sacrifice in the world.
One of the things, one of the core elements of living a great life, and, and you’ll find this in just about every major religion and philosophy, is this notion of giving back and leaving the world around you, uh, um, a better place. I think if, if you are taking our message as, as a license to live a selfish, self-centered life, that’s not what we’re talking about here.
Not quite what we’re out here, not quite what we. Uh, but actually I think when you invest in yourself and put yourself first, you can truly be selfless in the way that it’s intended because you’re giving out of an overflow as opposed to your tank near empty. I, I like your first version better, . The, uh, I’ll be honest.
And the reason why is cuz I, I, i, I a hundred percent agree with everything you just said. Well, you better cuz then we’re have issues. You better . Wow. That’s why it just got real dark. Shit. Just got real, the. I, I prefer the language of let’s give generously mm-hmm. instead of using the language of self and less, which just gets reinforced in so many negative ways.
And I know that’s, that’s kind of where you’re coming from. It’s like, holy crap, that language was not serving me. That the, the, the, the definitions or the concepts that us had linked to that were not serving you. I actually think that’s rampant. So I would rather say like, let’s drop that language and let’s, let’s use the.
which is, again, it’s not about giving selflessly, about eliminating self. It’s like let’s give generously like that. I, because I think the giving is really important. I, I’m so with you there, but I just like, ah, or I’m still, maybe I’m still responding to it the way you will as well. . I’ll evolve guys. Oh yeah.
Gimme a little time. You know, you, it’s, but listen, part of why we launched this podcast, let’s be real. , right? Is, oh, okay. Let’s be real for once there’s a bit, as opposed to ina how inauthentically we’ve been showing up the past 15 episodes, . Uh, but, but part of it, I know for me anyway, I can’t speak for you guys.
I think, and you tell me if, if part of this is true, is that because of the significant. Change and transformation we’ve experienced. Sharing our journey like this with you on a regular basis keeps us growing. It keeps us right anchored in that work because we wanna make sure when we show up and, and are, are recording these episodes.
For those of you that are forming part, this great community, uh, both of you, uh, folks, both of all, both of you out there that listen to this show regularly, um, we wanna make sure we’re bringing content that’s meaningful and rich. Yeah. And authentic. It’s not just something we’re reading in a book, right?
So it’s forcing us in many ways, keeping but not forcing, keeping us in that space of you’re helping us, you’re helping us, you’re helping us. I, I, I would write a review for you if I could the, uh, but in the absence of that, You can write one another. Played well, well played. We should probably given, yeah, because here’s, here’s like we, we said, we talk about rituals and we are, we’re talking about some very important concepts around them.
Um, and it’s part of what I love about my convers our conversations is they, they don’t go to the usual, they go to often, um, the much deeper side of things. Uh, but, uh, in, in an effort to make sure we, we, we talk about actual rituals that we’re finding to be meaningful for us. Again, not offering them as a formula or dogma, but us sharing our story.
Here are some rituals that actually are really meaningful to me in my journey. Perhaps we could make that shift and talk about some of those. Yeah, absolutely. I was about to, you know, just suggest that as the host, but go ahead, be the host. Do your job, Rob , do your job better. . I would. Hey, do better. I threw up, be the host, and all of a sudden Eric was like, oh, I was so Eric, I was, was almost speechless.
Yeah, that was, that is so weird. That was so weird. Uh, yes. Let’s talk about, uh, how, uh, the rituals. Great transition, Rob. Thank you. Uh, it’s, uh, the skill of a host, uh, some of the rituals that. You play out in your life that some of, and, and, you know, I know we’ve shared our rituals for the most part. We’ve shared with each other some of the things that we do.
Uh, I’ve, we’ve talked at different times even, you know, I, I’ve talked about, uh, living richly as a couple and I’ve had that opportunity that there are rituals even that Wendy and I have established that we we do together. What are some of those rituals for the two of you? What would be some of them, two or three examples of rituals that have really served you?
at this stage of your journey? Uh, for me it comes down to there’s really four core rituals for me that when I look at the set of practices or the list of things that fill my cup or make me feel better out of that, there are the core rituals that these are the things that. Uh, uh, like none other, like, no other activity.
These things really replenish me, helped me feel grounded, helped me feel centered, and it, it came out in an acronym called nest. And, uh, there’s all kinds of great symbolism about the use of that word for me, uh, which I’ll spare you right now. But, uh, the word nest for me, uh, nature, right? So anything in nature, uh, whether that’s walking or hiking or paddle boarding or anything of.
That is a physical activity that actually touches pretty much all four elements. For me, it, uh, it right, it, it really, really taps me in. Uh, so nature is, is an important one. Uh, so that’s the end exercise. Rigorous exercise for me is also very, very important. Uh, That is good for the body. It’s good for the mind, it’s good for, again, it activates a lot of different things.
And then the s is what I call my spiritual or solo rituals. These are things done by myself, uh, whether that be, and I also call them my Jedi practices, but they, they, uh, my trying to unleash my inner monk, but the acronym doesn’t work, but the acronym doesn’t work with Jedi. So I went with spiritual. Solo would work really well.
Really well. There’s only two. There’s always only two. Uh, but those would include things like journaling, meditation, uh, right. Uh, there, and there’s a bunch of them. Actually, I’ve got another acronym, but we probably don’t have time for that today. But a, a, a list of practices that I pull from that are, uh, reflective, that are, uh, done by myself to really anchor myself in the kind of person that I want to be and, and build on.
And then the t is my together rituals or my tribal rituals. These are rituals. Are that require community, these are done in community, can’t be done solo. Uh, part of those rituals is great conversations the three of us have together about our journey, uh, conversations with my partner Kate, about the journey.
These are, these are things that can’t be done solo. This is where, again, surrounding yourself, we’re gonna do a whole episode on community. Uh, but surrounding yourself with people that are on the path, that are on the journey as well, uh, makes a, a like-minded individuals that you are journeying. Can make such a big difference.
So that’s, for me, that kind of captures in essence that what’s core for me from a ritual’s perspective. Can you, uh, and, and Trav I’ll ask you the same question around what are some specific rituals. Maybe I’ll ask you, Rob, uh, and, and then onm happy. Maybe we’ll turn the tables, turn the table and put the, but can you give Host in the hot seat?
So I, I think that’s, it’s, it’s great. I love, you know, the, the language, how you use language and, you know, acronyms, all of that are, it’s, it really helps simplify a lot of this. Give me one or two. Very clear examples of a ritual. So those are ritual categories and that, but give me, uh, and, and how do you phrase your rituals when you write them out?
How do you, how does that written out as a ritual? The ritual is what’s the practice, right? So, so another word called grammar. For me, gratitude is a ritual for me. Practicing a life of gratitude, uh, um, uh, reflection. Uh, and so anything reflective, uh, meditation. Uh, uh, I do a lot. I’m actually dialing up my meditation currently.
Uh, really doing a lot of body scan, meditation, uh, awareness, meditation, breathing meditation for a number of different reasons. That’s awesome. Um, acceptance. This is what’s happening right now. I’m doing the best that I, that I can. The opposite of resisting life. It’s accepting what’s happening.
Mindfulness, meditation, affirmations, reading those would be again, uh, what, what fits in? Very specific, but they fit in my, uh, my spiritual. Practices. My solo practice, that’s how I define them, spells the word grammar. Uh, again, tons of , really powerful symbolism, grammar gives, gives structure, uh, but it’s where creativity also lives.
Um, and I call it the grammar of the spirit from, for my life. Yeah, so good. So good. Trev, I use the acronym hippopotamus. , we don’t, so we’re gonna have a, we’re. This will be part two of this show. Yeah, we’re gonna entire episode dedicated to hip the word hippopotamus. No, I don’t. It’s a plural of hippopotamus by hippo.
Is it Hippo? It’s true. All right. We are over 50 minutes, so we’re gonna land the plane here in a second. The, uh, our, my day starts with a fire every day. And that for me is, I posted about that a little bit ago, is so powerful. It’s an such an ancient, like as long as humans have had access to it, people have started their day in that same practice.
Right about bringing light and energy into the world. And so that, you know, part of when we, when we chose this, this farm, this home has got a, you know, a cast irons, uh, stove or uh, fireplace that heats our home. And so that practice daily for me is just so grounding and, and there’s a ritual. That has packed with meaning because if you don’t practice it, the farm, the, the family freezes, right?
Yeah. You run into all kinds of problems. It’s, uh, so ritual isn’t just for show , it’s uh, it’s pretty pragmatic as well. Yeah. Um, I have some, some smaller ones and I described that, that, thank you one. , that, that is actually a very, very important one for me, uh, because it goes to being willing to accept any kind of compliment, which goes straight to your view of, you know, self-acceptance and being willing to accept that there are things that are good about you and other people can observe them and share them, and we can receive them and that’s okay.
Um, time outside in nature is critical, especially actually at. I like to be outside at night. The, uh, I, I was chatting with you guys earlier as with a client, uh, for the last couple of days, uh, in Toronto at this amazing hotel, but everything was inside for like two days and I had to quite late in the day go, I gotta get outta here.
I got it because it felt like forever, since it had, I’ve been outside. Uh, and just to have that fresh air, even if it was Fresh City Air, the uh, right. Which, wait, wait. Is that ? I dunno. Fresh City Air. It, it wasn’t, that’s like, that’s like hippo eye to me. I don’t know. It feels fake. He feels fake. It feels me.
Oh, that’s real . The, uh, I’ll put it in the show notes. Okay. The, uh, like that is very, very important to me as well. A number of mine have to deal with, have to do with dealing with scripts that I’ve carried for a long time. So their actions that are the meanings are about kind of reverse engineering or realigning the things that I’m saying to myself over and over, so that, again, it’s more aligned with.
Who I’m, who I’m realizing maybe I am. And, and that’s for me, affirmations. I love the way you put that. Yeah. It’s really, it’s, it’s a spiritual practice or a regular practice, a ritual that helps you create new meaning. Yeah. As opposed to the meaning that hasn’t served us well. Right, right. It, it’s so interesting and you know, a lot of my rituals very similar.
Uh, and it’ll, as we get Well, that’s an easy answer. Well, as we get into the conversation too. Me too, me too. Me. As we get into the conversation around community, that’s one of the things we’ll discover when it, when you surround yourself with the right community, uh, there’s a celebration or an honoring of one another’s rituals that happens there.
And, and I think we, we all have there. There, there’re, there’re, uh, They’re may be expressed a little differently, but the notion of outdoor, the notion of, of the physical, the working out, those are certainly some of the ones for me. Reading, uh, is a big, uh, ritual. One of the things I just discovered as a kind of a new ritual was getting back into reading fiction, uh, that not every book has to be a self, uh, uh, you know, personal growth.
You don’t have to be growing and healing in 24 7. That’s, that’s sometimes. Freeing thing. True for me and I, I just finished, you know, first one in a little while was to read through a book The Martian, right. Aian you read The Martian. And, and to, to, to just take this and to, to kind of dive into a book that is fiction, uh, that I could just turn off my brain from everything else and just enjoy being somewhat entertained and learn learning all this.
But that’s important. So important, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s, and it’s, and that’s what I’m saying is I’ve discovered, hey, this is. This is a ritual for me is it does help me to, uh, live more richly when I take some time to, to do something like that. So, uh, obvi, there’s a lot that’s here. I recognize that our time, uh, you know, we are, we have been at this for a while.
Today, we will talk. More about, uh, the notion of rituals and practices. This is not the end of the conversation. This is the beginning of it. I have no doubt. In three or four episodes from now, Eric will find something else that he was wrong about and need to correct. Oh, that’s a guarantee. , it’s, you should start, if you wanna start a spreadsheet.
A spreadsheet. There we go. There’s a spreadsheet idea. Yeah. To track the. Things Eric says that he funny about ACEs or, or Trevor and I treated as a drinking game, but , you know, either way, spreadsheet or drinking game. My liver wouldn’t say, uh, whatever matters. Yeah, , uh, um, but we will talk more about it.
We’d love to hear some of your rich. Yeah. And so one of the things that I would encourage you to do is if this episode is spoken to you, uh, to share it out, uh, on your social media platform, share it out and maybe include as a comment, what are two or three rituals that you are embracing that you are practicing that serve you well.
Uh, and maybe just have a conversation around that with some of the people that you shared out with. And that’s one of the things that we encourage you to do. The other is to subscribe so you don’t miss any of these episodes as they come out. We’re on all of the popular. Podcast platforms. Were on YouTube as well.
A few unpopular ones, A few unpopular podcast platforms too. cause we wanted to spread the love right to those poor, bad platforms. , it’s really a lack of judgment. It’s a lack of objection on our card, but hit subscribe anyway and as we have been shamelessly, uh, ask you to do since. Uh, this episode started.
If you leave us reviews, it really does help. Uh, so if you’re enjoying the show, please help, uh, Le leave a great review behind. It does help us reach more people and, uh, increase, uh, this, this wonderful community that’s, uh, uh, kind of gathering around this message. We really did push a lot for the, uh, we did push.
Yeah, we, we won’t do that every time. We are just doing that today. We’re, we’ve got so much, uh, to include in the show. So go to living richly.me/act actt and all of it will be there for you. So a, any of the books that we mentioned, uh, Frank Sinatra song, the Plural of H Hippopotamus, the 5:00 AM Club, we will all be there.
The 5:00 AM club. Absolutely, uh, all of that will be there. So feel free to join us and, uh, make use of that Sheridan. Thank you again so much for joining us, for being a part of this community. Uh, and until next time, we just invite you to live your.