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In this episode, we take a hard look at Hustle Culture and how it affects people.

We put that up against a far more productive approach that integrates the ability to rest and recharge so we can live a life that is richer, more meaningful, and more productive too.


You can watch the videos of all of the Living Richly Podcast episodes on the Living Richly YouTube Channel.

Show Notes for Episode 19

The statistics are staggering when it comes to the affect hustle culture is having on people:

  • According to a 2020 survey conducted by the Canadian Mental Health Association, 77% of Canadians reported feeling burnout at their current job, and 40% reported feeling so burnt out that they had to take time off work. 
  • A report by the Mental Health Commission of Canada found that stress, burnout, and other mental health issues cost Canadian businesses an estimated $50 billion each year in lost productivity and increased healthcare costs.

Our good friend Anastasia Valentine was featured in a great article about the impact of hustle culture and she’s got some smart stuff to share. She’s worth following. 


Episode 19: Learning to Rest and Recharge

Hustle culture, in some ways, is a real lack of imagination about how else to get things done.       

Rob Dale, Eric Deschamps, Trefor Munn-Venn.

Hi, and welcome to the Living Richly Podcast. My name is Rob Dale, and I am here with my great friends Eric Deschamps and Trefor Munn-Venn. Hey brother. Uh, it’s early in the morning as we’re recording this one, so you guys are still great. Uh, we’ll see how it’s now as the day progresses, as the day progresses, that often changes.

Uh, if you pay attention, uh, to the introductions, you’ll notice they do change. Um, we have been talking over the last number of episodes. We’ve been looking at some of the different kind of concepts of, of how, uh, living your best life, the notion of living richly, it plays out in different scenarios, different ideas.

Uh, we talked about stress, we talked about, uh, you know, uh, finding community, stuff like that. I wanna talk today about, uh, the, the idea of, of rest. And, uh, what is rest? Why do we need to, do we need to rest? Uh, and if so, why? The benefits, all of that. Uh, we’re, of course, we record this. We’re in Canada, we’re in Ottawa, uh, uh, north American culture.

Uh, probably different than many parts of the world. There’s certainly other places, uh, other cultures, uh, that, that, uh, treat, uh, kind of look at things the same way the North American culture does, which is a hu a hustle culture. It is a busy culture. We, we celebrate, uh, workaholics, if you will. We, you know, it’s the, the, the, we give it a badge of honor when you say, oh, I work late, or I work.

Uh, and then the flip side of that is, of course, when you ask somebody, Hey, how you doing? What’s usually the first response? . Busy or stressed. Yeah, busy. Busy is the most common. Right. Busy or stressed or tired. Uh, whatever that might be. And so we celebrate one side of things, and yet we’re feeling something, uh, uh, really different.

So maybe, uh, let’s just kind of introduce this, this concept, this idea. When we talk about rest, uh, what are we talking about? Well, I think we’re talking about in many ways, uh, uh, I mean there’s, there’s rest as an activity. Uh, and there’s rest, I think as a way of life in terms of building it into your life.

Uh, you, you talk about hustle culture. I refer to it as the heresy of hustle culture, um, that certainly I bought into for, uh, many, many years. Um, and I think a lot of our society, to your point as still, uh, very much, uh, captivated by and, uh, I was looking up the definition. We throw that word around that phrase around, but what does it actually mean?

Um, and it says, hustle culture’s a toxic and unsustainable work ethic. That glorifies, overworking and constant productivity at the expense of physical and mental health, personal relationships, and a fulfilling life. Well, that doesn’t sound too, sign me up. That sounds good. . So when we think of, uh, you know, it’s, it’s probably the anti messages of what we’ve been talking about, uh, in terms of living richly, living your best life, this notion of, uh, urgency and competition that causes people to priorit.

Uh, work over everything else, including their own wellbeing. We talk about burning the candle at both ends. And, and I say that and, and, and as one who’s got lots of experience doing that, I got pretty good at it actually. Um, and have experienced burnout of experienced depression as a result. Um, but it’s all about, uh, uh, hustle cultures, all about your work or how much you work and how much you produce.

Um, at and often, again at the expense of, uh, your own health. And it’s glorified as though that’s a. Uh, something to be, uh, attained. Like if you’re not doing it, that somehow you’re not making the grade. Um, I don’t know if that’s how you guys see it. I, I know for me, I think hustle culture is very, uh, predominant with people early in their career.

Mm-hmm. . Because it’s an energy move. Uh, right. You start, you start out your career, you’ve got a certain level of education, maybe a little bit of experience, but what you do have is time and energy, right? And so, so you double down on what you got. The problem is, I think it becomes the pattern, and that’s the only move that people learn over time is to say, I’ll just work harder.

I’ll just outwork the problem, right? I’ll work harder than anybody. Right. You know, no, there’s, there’s, there is a pride with work ethic, but when it goes too far, it’s no longer an ethic. Right. Right. It’s a problem. It’s a real problem. It’s a real problem. So I think I, I think that, um, it’s interesting because hustle culture in some ways is a real lack of imagination about how else to get things done.

It’s like, I got one move, which is all outwork you. I’m like, okay. But there’s a lot of other ways you can kind of, right. It’s not about, uh, and, and in that sense, it’s competitive, right? It’s all outwork you or all outwork the problem. When, when the real issue, you know, in a business context, it’s like, What is the optimal solution that this organization or this business needs?

And it’s not always more effort, right? More effort is actually in some ways a, a lazy response. It really is, right? As opposed to, cuz you said, well, instead of thinking more to go, how do we, maybe we need to look at this differently, we just go harder, right? We just turn up, turn up the volume, turn up the noise, hit the gas, whatever metaphor you want to use, the uh, and I think that’s when the wheels really start to fall off and we hit that toxic, non-sustainable approach.

Yeah, I, it reminds me of, uh, you know, Einstein’s definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again. Expecting a different result. And, uh, I heard someone say one time, you know, if you’re not getting the outcomes you want, if you’re not achieving your goals, you’re not getting where you want to be.

Doubling down on your efforts, working harder at it is only gonna get you what you don’t want twice as fast. Right? Uh, and I think, uh, that, that, that hustle mentality, uh, makes a lot of big promises, but it leaves most people feeling pretty empty, pretty unfulfilled, uh, and disconnected not only from the people, uh, closest to them, but disconnected from themselves.

I think at the essence of hustle culture is often what we’ve talked about. In, in many different episodes so far is this sense of self-worth. Yeah. Where does my worth and my identity come from? And in, let’s face it, north America and other developing countries, there is so much, uh, emphasis made right from an early age where you go to school and you get grades for repeating back to the teacher what they’ve told you.

Right. That we are taught from an early age that the grades we get, the performance that we put out there, that’s what it, that’s what gets us rewarded. That’s what gets us noticed. And so we grow up with this sense of that’s my identity. And so if I, if, if I’m not feeling good about who I am, then I know for years, uh, I didn’t feel good about who I am, we’ve better deliver more

You better just deliver more, perform more outie out. Uh, we, I I, the language of, you know, we try to out-hustle it, we try to out muscle it and, uh, what I came to realize later on in life, Yeah, cuz you know, I’m a slow learner, uh, is Oh, you’re not . You keep saying that. Oh my God. That’s right. We’re drawn. Rob and I are drawn a lot.

Are you drawing a line of the sand? Yeah, that’s right. You’re such a fast learner. Well, I came to learn, let’s, let’s put it this way. After two burnouts, two and a half burnouts came to realize that I’ve gotta redefine what it means to be me and where I get my sense of worth. Right? I, I, I, both of you, I, I. F uh, a couple of things.

I want to just highlight that, that each of you said, uh, when you talked about the idea that, you know, this is certainly, uh, predominant among when people first start out on their careers, and then you quickly said, but that becomes the habit. Uh, because my first thought was, well, I know lots of people who’ve been in their careers for a long time who are still, that’s their one.

That’s the one trick pony. Uh, and then, uh, and, and so it, it really is prevalent no matter what level or how much experience and how often you’ve, how long you’ve been into work your age or anything like that. Uh, and then I think what you is the such gold is this is idea is what happens is, is we begin to identify because, because our identity is wrapped up in what we.

we better do it well and we have to do it more. And we have, that becomes our whole focus because we don’t know who we are outside of our work, our, our, our titles or whatever that might be. Totally, totally. And when things don’t go the way we want, um, and cuz let’s face it, failure is part of our experience.

Now, we like to define failure. I think, uh, Sherry, our coach, who we’re gonna have on an episode says, there’s really no failure just winning or learning. And I think for us, we view, uh, failure, like when things don’t go our way as a learning exercise. So, uh, I think it was John Maxwell who referred to that as failing forward.

Uh, right. It’s not a setback, but when, when we experience those setbacks in our identity, is, is predominantly based in our performance. Well now we like, if we’re performing well, we feel good. I know, right? Even though we may be exhausted and running on fumes, we feel like validated somehow. But when life goes shitty, uh, and our performance is impacted, now it’s like, well, who are we?

Uh, and I’m a failure and I’m no good. I have no value. I have no worth. And so then we, again, we double down. What’s the strategy? We, the, is, well, I’m gonna outhustle this and out, out muscle, right? I mean, I, I looked up, uh, some Canadian stats cuz this is a Canadian show after all. But I think the stats, uh, in the US would be the same.

Uh, 2020 survey by the Canadian Mental Health Association reported 77% of Canadians, uh, reporting burnout, uh, in their current job and 40% of them feeling so burnt out that they had to take time off. We’ll link that in the show notes. Uh, another one, uh, by the Mental Health Commission of Canada. Uh, found that stress burnout and other mental health issues cost Canadian businesses an estimated 50 billion each, each and every year in lost productivity and increased healthcare costs 50 billion.

So, so think about that for a second. The hustle, uh, culture, the hustle mentality is if we work harder, we’re more successful. The statistics seem to prove otherwise. Yeah. That when we, when we, when we work at the expense of self-care, when we, when we focus on performance and, uh, listen, most. I’d say most North Americans, and this is probably true of other countries around the world, we uh, we build a life that we need to run away from for two or three weeks a year.

And so when we talk about rest, most people think of vacation time. Now, you just recently got back from a cruise I just recently got back from, from Jamaica, and that was, that was awesome. But most of us are, are, are, are working ourselves to the bone. We don’t have proper self-care, uh, uh, strategies in place to rest and re.

And so we, we look forward to these times away. Now, think of the last time you had to take a vacation. And when I, uh, work working with my clients, I’m sure it’s the same with you guys, the stress and pressure of what they have to do to take that one week or two weeks off, right? The work they have to do to be able to carve that time out.

And then when they get back, it’s a complete shit show. So whatever rest they got to during that time is quickly gone, forgotten, gone, and lost. And, and so when we talk about rest, relaxation, recharging, I don’t think we’re talking about that approach. I think we’re talking about something because it’s a very, very different, it’s a reactive approach, right?

Right. As opposed to an integrated, deliberate. You know, uh, intentional approach to say, how do, how do I include that? You know, you, you talk about it in the work context. How many businesses do we know who are carrying financial liability on their books because people haven’t taken their vacation, right?

Right. So it becomes this, this liability. And I remember I was, I was in one organization once where there was like 1.2 million of liability on the books from Untaken vacation. So there was this whole strategy about you’ve got, we’ve gotta get caught up and everybody’s gotta take, take their vacation. It was this 18 month strategy to do it.

And people were looking going, how the hell am I supposed to take like 13 weeks of vacation? I got all this stuff. And, and so our, our joke at the time, and it’s a very sad joke on reflection, was we were gonna hire someone. And their full-time job would be to take our vacation for us so we could get that caught up.

So if we paid ’em a hundred grand over 18 months, they would bring down a 1.2 million liability . It’s crazy. They were just like, we’ll just assign it over there. Yeah. But it was like these ludicrous ideas that, that people like actually entertained for a split second there because of this notion that, you know, where we end up not wanting to do it because we have to keep hustling.

Cuz if we don’t, things are not gonna go well. That somehow if, if, if I hit the pause button, if I don’t keep, uh, I know this is a almost the, I know it’s the lie that I believe for so many years, if I stop, it’s all gonna come crumbling down. Right. If I, if I hit the pause button somehow everything I’ve built is gonna come crumbling.

what was really underneath when I dared to get even somewhat present to it is I’m gonna fall apart. Yeah. If I stop. Because pushing yourself for so long, you, you, you start to feel, uh, p pretty damn vulnerable. Uh, uh, think of the, um, the battle lines that are being drawn in the workplace right now. Right.

Uh, With, with, uh, now the pressure to get people back, uh, to the office. And I get, I get the business case. I understand, uh, you know, the need for collaboration, all of it. But the, what’s been interesting to me is the, the increasing resistance you’re sensing from the workforce. And they’re pushing back and they’re saying, no.

Uh, we, we, we, we tried it, we showed you we could do it. So I’m not sure why we’re going back to it. And what’s interesting is this five day, 40 hour work week is something that was instituted during the Industrial revolution, um, and is so out of date. Um, right. Like it’s, it’s, it’s, we’re protecting something that perhaps isn’t as relevant anymore, but regardless of what one feels about it, um, uh, and, and feel free to make, make comments, ask questions, and fight us on it.

Oh yeah. Like fight us on it. Uh, I think, uh, the pushback we’re seeing around this particular issue of going back to the office is just a, a, a symptom of a larger, an indication of a, the larger resistance of, uh, a a lot of folks in the workforce that are saying the pace and the pressure, I just won’t do it anymore.

Don’t wanna do it. So before we jump in on how to rest, and we’re gonna talk a little bit of some of our, let’s take a nap, practices and all of that. Okay. Oh, not, not right now. No. . Okay. Sorry. I do nap. Do you nap? I, uh, he’s, he’s pretty, you know, he’s up there . Yeah. Most, most of my napping happens when I turn on the TV at six 30.

And then, no, I, I, um, no, uh, I don’t, you don’t, do you? And, and, uh, sometimes power naps. Yeah. From time to time Yeah. You can do the power nap. Yeah. So, well, not, not a great, I’m, if I power nap, I’m not actually sleeping. Sometimes it’s just a. Slow everything down. So I, I’m gonna talk, I want us to talk about that.

Oh, sorry. I got excited. Yeah, yeah. Could hosting, bringing it back in here, gonna guide this. No, I, I do want to talk about actually power naps. There’s, I have a really cool technique that I learned from a Special forces guy who explained to me how they sleep, basically, when they are out on a side doing, uh, you know, out, out wherever they’re doing, doing the stuff that, uh, special forces people do.

Uh, but before we do that, let me just bef to hustle this mentality, this thought that’s there for a lot of people. The fear is, if I’m not hustling, people will think I’m. Lazy. Right, right. So what do we say to that? Because, because I don’t think any of us would say the opposite of hustle is lazy. No. No way.

Right. And yet that seems to be, even when it comes to the working from, uh, remotely. Right. That’s the first argument that most, uh, bosses will make is while my people just want to be lazy, they’re just, they’re, they’re wanting to be able to fluff off at home or whatever. When that’s not nec, the, the, the stats don’t show that that’s the case.

The, the, the research is certainly showing that production is still happening. It’s happening differently. So what do we say to that concept of it’s either hustle or it’s laziness. First thought that comes to my mind is how far have we gone down the hustle continuum that any relaxation of it immediate, we immediately go to lazy.

Yeah. As opposed to smart, as opposed to deliberate, as opposed to intentional, as opposed to setting healthy boundaries where I can make a meaningful contribution in my job, my career, whatever else, but also show up, uh, in my personal relationships and show up for myself. Uh, it, it, it again, it’s crazy that we go immediately to these, these polar opposites.

Massive judgment. Right? Massive judgment. Right? Yeah. Because the other, the other word that came to mind is you were saying that was How about sustainable ? Oh, sustainable. Sustainable . So we’re saying, Hustle on one end, and the data are all telling us that doesn’t work. What, you know, having sustainability and predictability, right?

Remember in a business context, you guys know this, like, business is a system for predictably producing profit over time, right? Right. And so then you go, okay, a whole bunch of factors in there around the culture around, but it’s all about sustainable, predictable over time. And if it’s just like, we’re just gonna burn people out and go for the next one, I’m like, I suppose that’s a process, right?

The, uh, , I hope you’re hiring, onboarding works really, really well, and that you’ve got good legal coverage, right? The, uh, because it’s just like, it, it, it’s not gonna play out. So just say, how do we find a sustainable way to produce the results in our organization? And the fact that we go from hustle, which is a positive judgment on one end to lazy, which is a personal character judgment on the other.

Uh, and don’t take any accountability in the middle to say, How do we need to run this business in a more sustainable, predictable, profitable way? I’m all like, I’m, I’m all about result, like around that. But to look and say, how do we do that sustainably and to recognize that maybe that model from a hundred years ago isn’t quite serving us in that practices have changed.

Shocker. What the, uh, practices have changed. Technologies have changed, culture has changed. Processes. The market. , all the factors have changed, but we’re using the same system and, and not quite getting the results that we need. Right? There was a time when everyone’s was expected to work seven days a week, and then moving to six was a big battle.

Yeah. The uh, and then moving to five was one. And now we’re kind of going, now we’re looking at four, people are talking about four. I’m even her ear in three. I’m like, I think the question around time I is actually a bit of a red herring, right? Like it’s a false model, right? The issue is around results, outcome, productivity.

What, what do we need and how do we create a sustainable system to produce that? Right? And, and I think in some ways there’s a profound lack of imagination, right? To, to say, how do you, how do you do that? Um, but I think the, you know, when we, when we link that to kind of the rest piece, our rest is so reactive.

Burnout is like, I just can’t do it. And so, boom, the body’s like, the body’s like, screw you. I’m out. Right? Like it’s, I think what we’re talking about, I, I was thinking about this as in preparation for the episode. Like we often talk about, um, to me it’s like resting, recharging, revitalizing again. We’re using all, you know, a lot of these words have the word.

E in front of them, like, or the letters are e which is like, means we’re doing it again, which means do again. Yeah. To do again. Yeah. And so it, it is something that needs to be done over and over again, but not as a reaction. Not like, oh, I need to fill my tank cuz I’m on fumes right now. Oh, I need to recharge my phone because the battery’s dead.

No. It’s about building rest and recharging and revitalization into our lifestyle so that my tank actually never gets empty. I’m never running, or my battery never gets to or rarely gets to dead. Right. But that’s not the reality for, for most people. I think most people, a lot of folks are, uh, again, just in our own, uh, I think the research shows it anecdotally.

I think we work with enough leaders to know that it’s. Certainly, uh, I’m familiar with it, uh, in my life and made some massive changes there. Uh, but it’s this notion of, of, of rest and recharging as a necessary essential part of living a rich life. You, you cannot live at your best when you are. Push to the max all the time.

You can’t redline it if, if you have no bandwidth trip, right. You have no bandwidth to actually show up the way you want to because you’re, you’re basically in survival mode as opposed to thriving mode. Mm-hmm. , you, you created, uh, um, what we used to, we would show it sometimes, uh, with, uh, some of our business clients.

You created a, a slide, you know, showing that red line, the concept Yeah. The 80 20 Yeah, exactly. And the talking about the notion that even within, within work, having that, whether, whether it’s, you know, we, we often use the 80 20. Is a, a pretty common number that, uh, uh, fraction that we kind of look at is 80% capacity and have 20% for that.

That’s where the real production happens. Uh, if you’re running it a hundred percent all the time, you’re gonna blow the engine. Uh, and I That’s so true, even in our personal lives is to, is to finding that way of incorporating rests. Uh, running at a hundred percent is not healthy to anybody, you know, in the world of music.

Sorry, go. No, no. Uh, in the world of music, uh, we talk about rhythm and we talk about, uh, when you, if you read music, you know that it’s not just a bunch of notes, , right? That strategically plays throughout any musical piece. are, is, is, is a rest. Yeah. And if there’s no rest, all the notes just come crashing on upon each other without pause, whatev, and it’s chaos.

Right? Uh, so, uh, perhaps even a better word than rest, is how to build the proper rhythm in our lives. Right. Of activity and inactivity of of PR productivity. And recharging of charging forward and doing meaningful things and making sure that we’re good. Right. That we’re solid. Uh, but I think we’ve got, you know, as a culture, we’ve got that all backwards.

And, uh, before we forget, a great shout out to a great or our shout out to a great friend of ours, Anastasia Valentine. Great article recently that she released Yeah. The, interviewed her, I think it Mm-hmm. , we’ll throw the link in and, uh, you know, an Anastasia, she’s a seasoned business leader.

She’s seen it all. Yeah. And she shares her thoughts on, you know, what is Hu hustle culture doing to people and what is she. Not only experience in her own life, but seen in the organizations that she’s been in as well. And that’s worth a read. It, it’s a thoughtful piece. Anastasia Smart. You should just, uh, just, everyone should know her anyway.

Yeah. Anastasia, we love you. Great. The, uh, as if you didn’t know that the, uh, but I, I think it’s a good one. Yeah. I think it’s a good one. You know, the, the other thought that came to mind is hustle culture is like, um, all you have is first gear , right. And you’re just redlining it the whole time. Yeah. And so, and then you go until you’re outta fuel and then you try and desperately find some way to refuel.

You call CAA or whoever you call the, uh, to come and bring you some fuel to limp along to the next place to try and get it. And, and that’s where it’s kind of like that first gear strategy. And I’m okay with like effort and energy and work ethic and all of that, but people then never shift gears, right?

So you say, well, how am I supposed to get better in my career, my life, my whatever? It’s, you have to change gears. You have to find another way to approach the work so that what’s interesting when you change gears is, , the, uh, the effort is less. Mm. But the speed or the power of the result is more. Right?

Right. So, uh, people think, well, I’m gonna have to work harder now cuz I’ve got this new promotion. I’m like, if you keep working it the way you are, you will. And that does not scale. Right. Right. You, you just can’t sustain it. So it’s about how do, what shifts do we need to make and rest is part of it. Right.

Like, looking at that rhythm of activities that bring you rest. Right. And for me, like Robin kind of asked the question in advance going, okay, so what’s rest? Like, what, what do you, so now I’m hosting Rob, go ahead. No, no, no, no. Great job. Now. I’m done. Thank you. So what’s rest? The, I, for me it’s actually about, uh, calming my nervous system.

Right. It’s really about that because sometimes it’s great to dial it up. That’s exciting. Strategic pausing. Yeah. And then you bring it down, right? It’s strategic pausing. You bring it down and it’s that, you know, the. , we only get stronger when we rest. So like, use, use the fitness model, right? While you’re working really hard, you’re actually breaking things down.

Mm-hmm. the strength occurs only if you have recovery time. Well, exactly right. The same thing, like everyone would, would I, I don’t think anyone watching would argue the point that, uh, think of Olympic athletes or professional athletes. If they don’t build, uh, rest and recovery into their training, uh, regimen, their, their competitive regimen.

Uh, they’re going to injure themselves there. Something’s gonna go. And a great coach knows that, right? And knows. No. You’re like, you’re sitting, you’re sitting out tonight or right. Like, but it’s built, it’s built into the rhythm. It’s gotta be Did you have that in there? I, I didn’t see that. Yeah, I totally did.

And it just No, no, no. Not at all. I mean, it’s just, we’re on the same page, but it’s this notion, we wouldn’t argue about it on the athletic front. We, I think most people listening would say, yeah, that makes sense. You can’t, you have to, you can’t push your body. Listen to this. You can’t push your body to the uttermost without resting and not injure yourself.

We would agree with that statement. At an athletic level. And yet we push ourselves far beyond breaking point, often for long seasons of time. And, and we wonder why we’re feeling the way that we’re feeling. And yet even in, uh, the athletic world, there is constant work looking for technologies that speed up rest.

Right. . Right, right. It’s got How do we, this is my big focus is how can I rest faster? . Well, that’s, and, and that’s exactly what it is, right? So let’s try this, this technique. Let’s use this machine. Let’s take this supplement because it’ll speed up recovery so that you can get back into the gym faster.

Right? Right. So even in, in where we know that these are true, tried and true, uh, beliefs and, and behaviors, uh, we have a culture that seems to wanna, let’s do it faster. Let’s do the easy button. Let’s, right, let’s go, go, go. I, I think most people, if you said to them, do you want to incorporate. Rest into your life, most people would likely say yes.

It, it’s, I, I, I agree. I agree. And it’s often, it’s, we’ve been so programmed. I know for years people would tell me, like, Eric, like, you’re, you’re like a speeding car, heading down a highway, and the bridge is washed out. Like, slow the fuck down. You’re, you’re. Like they would tell and take time off. They’d tell me to find a hobby, which would drive me crazy.

Yes. Yeah. Um, but I was so defined by my performance and by, by work and, and actually I think one of the, uh, uh, telltale signs that one has fallen prey to hustle culture is, uh, how long it takes you, when you do follow the, the, the reactive ca self-care thing where you take a vacation. Like, there’s nothing wrong with vacations.

I think what we’re advocating for is build a life. You don’t have to run away from one or two or three weeks a year, like, um, enjoy the vacation, but as an extension of what you’re doing. But I think when, when folks, and this was true for me, for so, so long, that if I was taking a seven day, 10 day vacation, at least half of that was me gearing down.

Yeah. Right. Like it would take me most of the vacation to just gear down, to just slow down. Um, and then you’d get a little bit of rest. And then you’re right. Back at, so you mentioned you just had a a, a vacation. How long did it take you to gear down? So basically my last client was on a Thursday afternoon.

Yeah, you were leaving on Saturday. So when did vacation start for me? When I, when I hung up on that Zoom call? Yeah. . And I was that like, it’s actually for the last, not before the call. Like you’re a hundred percent. I showed up for my client. I showed up for my client, but like, it’s not an issue for me anymore.

Yeah. But I think it’s, that’s also a sign of like, for me, The vacation was something I was looking forward to. Uh, and we had a fantastic time. Uh, but it wasn’t an escape from my reality cuz I don’t feel I need to escape my life anymore. Yeah. It shouldn’t feel like you just crossed the finish line of a marathon.

Right, right, right. Where everyone collapses and is down and then, you know, recover and has a, like all of that stuff. I, I I feel like that’s probably what most people are living though. Right? Right. And, and then it’s really hard to find that enjoyment and then it, it’s amazing to see people have been back two, three days and all effects, all recovery effects are gone sometimes less than it’s, it never happened.

And, and, and I, and I often hear people go, pardon of me. You know, like, I, I love that I went and my family and I care. It is so painful to get ready to go and to come back, uh, to all of this stuff. And the effects are gone so quick. It’s almo and it’s so expensive. It’s almost not worth it. Right. And like, ooh, like that’s, that’s when we’re, you gotta look at that rhythm piece as, as your work your way through.

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I think a great question, uh, to, for, for anyone of us to reflect on is am I building rest into my life or am I building rush into my life? Yeah. And I think most of us are rushing from one thing to the next, one activity to the next. And there’s two things that, um, I think each one of us, we talk about owning our own reality.

Well, we talk about, um, being responsible for ourselves and not for others, right? Mm-hmm. , we talk about putting ourselves first. And, uh, we talk about that in uh, a number of episodes. How that’s the least selfish thing you can do. Cuz when, when you put yourself first that you’re actually not being selfish, you’re gonna show up better at work, you’re gonna show up better at home, you’re gonna show up better in every role, responsibility result.

Um, uh, but there’s this notion of managing two things, only two things that, that, um, each of us can only do for ourselves, and that’s managing expect. And managing energy. And I, maybe we can explore that a little bit. Um, uh, when we talk about managing expectations, I lived a life, uh, where for the most part my expectations were outta whack.

Uh, I held myself to unrealistic standards. My expectations were not in line with reality. And as a result, I was chasing something that couldn’t get, couldn’t be caught. Um, and the minute I thought, I ha I caught it, I, the expectation I’d look at it against say, no, I’m not there. You not that expectation. . So the expectations we we have of ourselves, which, which often, uh, very rarely do, they not then bleed into our expectations of others.

That’s often gonna show up as well. Those set us up for some, again, we talk about pace, pressure, rush. Um, those expectations are often a source of that and need to be looked at. And then this whole notion, we’ve only got so much energy, right? Like we’ve only got so much to go around. I know. Uh, if you’re younger, like if you’re under 30 and listening, you probably think you’re like superman, superwoman.

You are invincible, you’re not, right. You just haven’t hit the wall yet. But there is a wall and you will reach a point where you realize you don’t have unlimited energy, strength, stamina. You, you’ve only got certain reserves to work with. And I think managing that energy and what we give it to what we give our best energy to is also a big part of what we’ve been talking about.

But this, this whole notion of, uh, in this context of of of building a life, we don’t need to run away from building a life where ra recharge is built right into the whole rhythm of things. Um, what do you guys think about this whole notion of expectations and energy manage. , I’m thinking, yeah, I’m thinking the energy management one I get right away.

Like that one, I’m like Ah-huh. Because, uh, like everything we do requires, uh, some kind of energy mm-hmm. and different kinds of energy as well. Right? Not, not everything is, is equal. Like, uh, the experiences we have with different tasks require different kinds of energy and at attention and focus that go with them.

And, and I think that energy management piece is so, so big and I, I think most people don’t know how to manage their energy. They’re not quite sure how to replenish it, uh, how to protect it, how to pace it, uh, how to have the judgment to know where to put it. Right. Right. I mean, how many, uh, young leaders do, uh, do we know where.

when you ask them, like, so tell me like, how do you approach your work? They’re like, I give 110% in everything I do. I’m like, you’re crazy. Well, first of all, that, that math doesn’t make sense. The math is not like they fail math. There is only, we know that this is, but this is this notion. I think it’s a, it’s an, uh, an outflow of hustle culture is we think that the normal limits don’t apply.

Yep. There is only a hundred percent we defy, we defy reason. Right. In order to do it. And then all, all that tells me is a lack of judgment, right? Because if a job only requires 2% energy, why are you giving it 110? Right? That’s bad judgment. And why are you giving Right? Everything. And this is, I’m so, uh, like guilty of this.

I, I live like this for so long where even, uh, when I was not at work, when I was at play or at quote unquote at rest, if I could call it that. Yeah. Uh, for example, even reading a book, which is something that, uh, as we’ve talked about in, in, in the, uh, when we talk about the living rich blueprint, when you get clear on the things that really energize you and fill you up and, and that you enjoy reading, for me is, is definitely one of them.

I love learning. Right. So it’s, it’s a big part of it. But that I also gave, like, it was work. I would approach it with the same intensity. , right. Your notebook. You got your pen? Yeah. I got a blast for this book as quickly as possible. I’m working with a client right now and she has the same challenge and so we’re talking about like one chapter at a time.

This is gonna be like, right. And you’re gonna put the book away. Like, you’re not gonna conquer this. You’re not gonna treat it like another, but it’s this, again, we, we apply the same energy to everything and not everything needs a hundred percent of our energy. No. And I think the expectations piece, uh, you know, one of the, it was interesting as I got ready for my vacation, putting things together, getting ready.

Are you still? And I was, I, I absolutely, absolutely seen it. He’s still cruising. Um, well, and and you, nothing changed. Yeah, that was cute. That was was Did you say that was cute? You just call me cute. No, I didn’t call you. You called my, that was, that was dismissive. Okay, good. Got it. Got it. That was cute. Rob strikes back.

Can we, can we hear that in helium balloon voice? Can you see that? No. There it is though. Helium voice. Yeah. It took you about 30 minutes to get the job. I, I told him to come there. Um, it was interesting because as I was trying to decide, okay, what am I gonna read? while I’m on this cruise, uh, I’m gonna have lots of time sitting around the pool.

All of this. Uh, and uh, and I was like, well, I have to read. I, this is, I need to read some self-development books. I gotta read some personal growth, you know, whatever. And that, and I remember even having the thought myself going, oh, why are you putting that on yourself? Right. And I, I, and I was feeling guilty at first because, because that’s what you should do.

Right? Right. You could, somebody better, you could somebody had given me a, both Trevor and I. Somebody had given this should be better. . Hi. I’m gonna focus it on just you theAudience. Uh, someone had given me a fiction, uh, it was, uh, a book called Swan Song, uh, 800 and some pages. Uh, guy said, oh, you like Stephen King, you’re gonna like this.

Can you heard this alone? This notion of I don’t care. Uh, this, this idea of what? And, and, but it took, it was the only thing I read the entire time I was away because it was 800 and some pages. Like it was, uh, deeply immersed and it completely caught up in this, this kind of world. Yeah. Of, of, of which the book is, is, is created and, uh, absolutely fell in love with the style of this author.

Um, incredibly well and no guilt because for me, and I, like you, reading is rest most of my reading. , self-development, self personal growth, whatever, all of those kind of books. But to be able to stop and just, I really started to embrace, no, but one of my values is fiction. Yeah. I love fiction. I love a Stephen King.

I love that you said, I love that you said you were able to do it and there was no guilt. Yeah. Right. Because I think guilt again, uh, if guilt is showing up frequently, expectations, we’re probably living in a, a world of unrealistic expectations, right? Guilt is the feeling you get when you feel your actions are not aligned with your values, right?

So when you feel guilt, your our job is to go. What are my actions? Yeah. What am I doing? Am I clear on that? And what are my value? What’s the values? And, and to look and go, are those the healthiest things for me? And in that one, if you’ve got, uh, that must be working all the time, must be growing every minute.

If that’s the value, then you would feel guilt because you’re not in alignment. Where if the value is enriching myself, being curious, loving a good fictional story, loving storytelling, you kind of go then, then it’s a hundred percent aligned, right? So like to be able to feel that guilt, but to use it to.

Wait a minute, what are these two things? What’s my action and what’s that value? And are these serving me? And to go, oh, wait a minute. I can shift this. Yeah, I can shift. You go. We have control over that. Right? Yeah. That’s awesome. The other part, the other part of expectations is not just the expectations we put in ourselves, but the perceived expectations.

Mm-hmm. We think others are, are putting on us. Right. Right. And so I remember early on, I don’t feel this, so there were, there were many years at the beginning of, of Rhapsody, uh, where I, my thought would be, which is our business by the way. Yes. Where I, my thought would be, I need to do this because, uh, or else Eric or Trevor are gonna be upset with me.

Or they’re gonna write this kinda stuff. When did that change? Well, now I don’t, well, what, what changed was, I don’t give a fuck what you think was gonna say. Right. That’s what changed is, you know, I know you’re still mad at me if I don’t do it, but I don’t care. It’s so freeing. No, it’s so free, it’s so freeing.

I like that. Uh, no, no. But there are sometimes these, the expectations we put on ourselves that we think, while we think that others are putting on us, well think of and, and absolutely. I mean, think of, we’re, we’re, we’re focusing so far on this episode, primarily around work. And so if true, if we’re talking about guilt and expectations, like work guilt, right?

Yeah. If I don’t work enough, if I’m not working hard enough, somehow I’m failing, uh, somehow I’m not performing, I’m not producing, I’m not good enough. Uh, but I mean, we could turn that o on so many other fronts. Think of parental guilt, uh, right where we feel this expectation to be a super parent and, uh, show up.

Up, uh, in a superhuman way with our kids. And, and so we’re, we’ve got our kids involved in every activity, and we’re, uh, and you are involved in every activity with, you’re bringing the cupcakes. You’re exactly, like, I’m, there’s nothing wrong with that, but just like overwork, like, uh, I think it’s sometimes a good place to check in with ourselves on the parental side if our lives are so chaotic.

Uh, and so running from one thing to the next, like what expectations are, am I living according to my values, to your point? Or am I living according to some societal expectation? Culture need, demand that is unspoken and yet driving my behavior, right? So, so in our family, there’s an expression which is you gotta pay to.

which means, right, you wanna rest, you have to work, you have to earn it first. Right. Earn. Right, right. If you’re gonna, you know, part of it was like, if you’re gonna go drinking, you still gotta work the next day. Like, like, okay, I’m okay with that. Like, that’s, that’s my choice. But it’s, it’s interesting, these, these things that we carry around with us that actually, uh, get passed from generation to generation.

Yeah. Yep. And, and we get to interrupt that. So part of it is, you know, you can look at yourself and say, what am I doing here? And, and how does this feel? And what’s this experience like? Would you, would you like to give that to your children? Now? What are you passing on? Because it’s about are what gets caught, not what gets taught.

Right. They’re gonna watch you and go. Okay. That’s how you do it. Yeah. This is what matters. This is what’s important. Uh, listen, and, and this may be true, you may have had experiences like this, I’m sure you did in your previous life as a minister. Uh, and, and certainly that’s a space I lived in. Um, and, um, I, I had the opportunity to marry a bunch of people.

I also had the opportunity right, to You mean the officiate, the marriage of many people. Oh, yeah. I married many people, , married . I also buried them . So I I’ve been asked to officiate a wedding. You have? I have. I got some. I’m very notes excited. I’ve got, I’ve got some notes. I got some notes, sorry. But the, uh, I, I’ve, I’ve had the, uh, tremendous privilege of, uh, sitting at, uh, the bedside of people that are passing, transitioning from this world into whatever is waiting for us on the other side.

And never, uh, in those final conversations with people when they know they’re in their final moments, never did I have someone look up at me and say, with regret, I wish I would’ve worked harder. Never, right now. How many people at the funeral said, well, at least they can rest now. , right? , right. Like, it’s like, oh God, oh God.

Like again, can I rest now instead of later? Right. And we’re not advocating again. We’re like, if you’re, if you’re listing this podcast, especially if you’re a business leader, because I know like, again, the pressure on us at the leadership level, uh, a business is designed to produce outcomes and we’re not suggesting otherwise.

Even our analogy earlier of the athletes, these are winning top level athletes that are performing and the best at their game. Understand the importance of rest and recovery. Yeah. And pace and, and the rest. So these two things are not actually, uh, opposites. It’s not you have to have one or the other. Uh, as a matter of fact, I believe that they hold each other in creative tension.

I think they live together. That, um, uh, a life that’s meaningful is one that is making a contribution. Not that your identity is defined by that, but I think one of our core human needs is feeling like we’re making a difference. Like what we’re doing is contributing to something bigger than ourselves.

And so I think when. Uh, someone gives themselves to that and at least, uh, in a healthy way. Uh, they’re getting satisfaction and fulfillment out of their contribution. So we’re not advocating for laziness. No. Right? Like, that’s certainly not our, uh, in any business. What do we say? Like, there’s, there’s a small percentage on either end.

You’ve got on one end of a continuum, you’ve got the givers. These are the folks that go above and beyond. Uh, like regularly and probably really need to listen to this episode. , this is for you. Um, and then you’ve got the takers on the other extreme. Mm-hmm. , who are the folks that are phoning it in and very happy to steal time and, and, and, and, right?

Like, uh, they’re not contributing much and they’re a burden to the rest of the team cuz they’re not pulling their weight. And then you’ve got, like most people, right? Like kind of the ma we call them the mass in the middle, right? So we’re not advocating right for that. What we’re, what we’re saying is that it has to be, uh, we have to move away from, from.

Tive a reactive approach to this and be proactive and look as a, as, as rest and recharging and renewal, um, as part of, of a, a healthy life and a full life of our, our best life. Mm-hmm. . So let, uh, let’s get real practical with some of the things that maybe we do in order to, to, uh, to bring rest into our. Uh, I, I, just to go back quickly, one of the ones that you asked me about whether I do this or not, which is the, the, the resting, the, the naps, uh, is isn’t something that I, is there a reason you asked him that specific?

No, I was just curious. Curious. I don’t, I don’t nap. Well, no. Well, so I mess afterwards. I do nap. Well, it’s like, well, this was, where’s the other three hours go? This is a trick. And, and, and I hear that from a lot of people. I, I can’t have a nap because then I’m gro I’m really bad for, for hours. And I remember having that conversation with a, a friend of mine who is a part of special, a special forces, uh, uh, soldier.

And he, he, he talked to me about it. He says, well, here’s what we do when we are. He says, you, you drink a coffee or five energy drink right before you close your eyes. Sorry, five energy drinks, five hour energy drink. Oh, it’s like, sorry. I don’t know. In my heart, do No, no. Sorry. I feel like I better Thank you.

I better have the paramedics here with a shot of vodka. You have a five hour energy drink on their face. I see why you can nap. Case. Pretty much. They’re dead on the other side of that. In, in his case, he would have, they would have a, a cup of coffee right before they lay down, and he said, because the co, the caffeine will not kick in right away.

Right. You fall asleep. Oh, I see. 15, 20 minutes later you wake up with the caffeine kicking in. Interesting. And so now you, have you tried that? Now you’re awake? Yeah, I have and, and it works absolutely caffeine. You’re the five hour. I’m caffeine. I, I’m not, I’m a personally not fan of those, uh, energy drinks.

But, but, but Red Bull gives you wings, uh, they’ve given. And if you’d like to sponsor this podcast, , we invite you Shameless, um, for corporate sponsorship. But that is a trick for something more extreme podcast. There are lots of cultures who embrace this siesta that, that becomes a, a part of their, their, uh, and tonight started moving to Mexico.

And I think there is something really, uh, significant about that concept right now. Some of the ways that I, uh, uh, incorporate rest into, to, uh, to my workday even is often during the, during the day, I will get up. I. Block off some time to go for a walk. It might just be a walk. Uh, ideally for me, it’s a walk in the woods, uh, where I am right now.

Uh, it, it might just be a walk around the neighborhood, uh, during that time. But to try to get out and to, to do that, to be able to uh, uh, just get a bit of time with fresh air breathing, even in the cold, you dress for it. You just, I think that is a really good one. We’ve all mentioned, I think reading is something that we’ve all incorporated.

Uh, um, uh, another one that I, I’m just about by the time this podcast, this episode Airs, airs, I will have incorporated, we’re just looking into picking a studio where I’m gonna start doing yoga, uh, and start to incorporate, uh, uh, doing And you start calling you Yogi. You might at some point. No, uh uh You should hear what he calls you.

Oh, I’ve heard, I’ve heard it’s, we won’t say that. I read his, Joe read his journal. I have the password. Of course you do. It’s the password. One 50 . Um, uh, and, you know, exercise. Uh, what about for, for, for the two of you? What are some of the ones, one of the ones that you first introduced to us was a number of summers ago, you went for a summer, you went for a four day, you said, I’m not gonna work Fridays.

He’s not gonna try this out. It made so much sense. We said, Hey, we wanna do that. Right. Uh, and then we all did it. And then after the next summer we did it. Uh, then when the conversation said, Hey, why don’t we just make this permanent? Yeah, we did. And it is to this point. Been a way that we go, part, part of it for me was, uh, recognizing I think, again, when it comes to napping or any of the strategies, like we’ve said before, and, and we said it, uh, uh, really clearly, I believe, uh, in the prac the episode we, where we talked about practices and rituals, is that there’s no cookie cutter approach here.

There’s no one size fits all. I think, uh, uh, we can advocate for, um, and we get passionate about strategies that really work for us. I think that’s just human nature, but it, it, it may not work for somebody else. It may just not be their cup of tea or they, it, it may just not fit at least in this season of their lives.

So, um, but for me it was like, uh, when I first started doing the four day work week is I still hadn’t figured out how to do the vacation thing. And I was, not that I couldn’t do it, I did do it, but I just felt, again, the lead up to it and the, and that what we, that we’ve described today, you know, the lead up and what’s waiting for you when you get back.

I found taking just Fridays off and having a long weekend every weekend to be tremendously refreshing. And I did it for that first summer and it was easy. It was easy to adjust for a four day week. Uh, and now it’s, it’s, uh, as you say, like it’s actually, that’s what we do. And, uh, uh, Fridays now become sort of like, for the most part it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a rest day.

It’s also if you need a bit of time to catch up on your workday, whatever, at least I’m not seeing clients or whatever, so I can. Um, uh, right. I can, I can really relax, but I find that pace that we’ve all found that right, we’re more productive, we’re more focused. There was no zero negative impact on, on the business.

Matter of fact, we’re probably performing, I think the numbers we are show that we’re performing better, we’re performing better, right? Uh, because of it. And this is a trend obviously that’s taking, uh, off around the world. And I think Iceland now is up to 83 or 84% of their workforce is either on a four day work week or on their way to a four day work week.

And there’s all kinds of other countries experimenting with it. Uh, so the four day work week’s been huge. One of the things I do is even during my week, right? There’s, um, there’s all the self-care stuff that I do that we’ve talked about on other episodes, you know, nature and being on the water and exercise.

I think those are all important, uh, uh, elements, uh, at least for me. And, and I know for you guys of resting and recharging Yeah. But even what I do during my work, Because our work is predominantly needing driven. We’re in conversations, uh, with clients, uh, most of the time, uh, when we’re on, uh, two things.

One is I, uh, right early on when I first got into this line of work, uh, I made a commitment that I wouldn’t work weekends and I wouldn’t week e work evenings. So I don’t, I’m, and if a client says I want to, like, I’m like, it better be an emergency. I’ve taken emergency calls, but I can probably, I can probably count on one hand the amount of times I’ve done that over the years cuz it’s, uh, I make that a very clear boundary.

And, and during my day, uh, and I say this, I do this about 90% of the time, I allow for at least a 15 minute break, uh, between, uh, meanings. And by that I don’t mean I’m completely off, but, uh, I don’t, I try not to book meetings back to, back, to gimme time to do something. Like just get up. My office is upstairs, I walk down the stairs, get some more water or a cup of coffee.

I let the dog out. I move, right? So there’s some motion, some movement in there as opposed to the crazy pace and pressure of, oh my God, I better end this conversation on time because I got another person at the top of the hour who’s gonna be signing in. So what I found is just that, just that alone removes a lot of, um, uh, uh, that pressure that I was feeling and incorporates more, uh, uh, mobility and, and, and motion, uh, into my day.

Nice. What about you, Trevor? Yeah, I mean, the structure of the day really matters. Uh, how you organize it for me, getting outside, you know, that like, that’s probably my, uh, the biggest thing for me. So, you know, when I work out of here, and so to be able to like, just go out on the deck, breathe, stare at the mountains, look down to the river, like, yes, watch the turkeys, which are going by again here.

The, uh, I don’t know, all of a sudden it’s all turkeys here all the time. The, uh, , is he referring to us? No. , the, uh, but I think that time outside for me is really important. People heard that eye roll . I felt, I felt the weird come off that eye. Oh yeah. No, it wasn’t even just you, you don’t even have to be watching this episode.

And YouTube. You heard it, you heard it, you it, you heard it on Spotify. You heard it on Apple Podcasts. You know, it’s true. The um, uh, time with Carrie is really important for me. Uh, like that closeness is, is that really, really matters. Yeah. Um, the, it’s just, again, anything that’s gonna create a shift in the nervous system.

Right, right. Makes, uh, for me, like I think, and that’s where you got so many levers you can throw Yeah. To, to change that. And for everybody, it’s gonna be a little bit different in terms of how they can do that. But it’s, it’s, find those things that bring you calm and stillness. And sometimes it’s meditation.

Yeah. Sometimes it’s like time in the hot tub. Sometimes it’s a walk, sometimes. Like, it doesn’t have to be one thing. It’s this constellation of things that just helps you gear down. I love that. And you mentioned it, uh, uh, you, you raised this point, uh, during the episode on practices and rituals that not every ritual has to be this huge investment of time.

No, and I think, I think it is looking for, again, if we go back to the analogy of a piece of music, how do I insert. . Mm-hmm. more rests into my day, into my life, where these could just be moments where I reset, catch my breath, refocus, set a new intention, shift my thinking. Uh, right. It, it, there’s, uh, what is it, the, the four by four breathing, like there’s techniques that you can use that are, they literally take a minute, two minutes, and yet it resets your whole system.

Yeah. Uh, especially if you’re in a, listen, the, the higher stress job that you’re in, if you’re in a really high stress job, this becomes like, uh, well, I, I, I don’t want to call it just survival, cuz I, I don’t think we should be, Um, I, I, you know, I, I don’t think a great life goal is I’m going to survive, right?

Like, I’m gonna just make it over the line. Um, uh, but, but they become techniques and strategies that help you break up that, that pace and that pressure into smaller chunks that are easier to deal with. Um, and that in insert, again, a reset. It’s like, I think, I think a, a great way to look at rest is like, it’s a reset, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Like, like, like sleeping at night is a reset to the day, uh, right. Where your body needs that several hours of inactivity to kind of recharge. But you know, what we’re talking about here is inserting little resets. Yeah. And throughout your day. And it is, it is so interesting how this fits back into the four by four model that was introduced as we talked about these different components.

Uh, if the, the more you, uh, Deliberately design or, or, uh, the, um, uh, those, those rituals you create, those rituals, uh, that in which you express your living richly lifestyle, the more you have those and then, uh, embrace them and put them into practice, those are. , what, what, what comes outta the result of those rest?

Right? Uh, the, the end result of living my rituals is, I feel rested, right? And, and so it really, uh, I would encourage if, uh, you haven’t had a chance to listen to, uh, the episodes where we talk about values, talk about what enriches my. You know, all of the model that, that you’ve, uh, created and, and we’ve been really embracing, uh, together as, as a group.

Uh, if you haven’t had a chance to do that, I encourage you to go back and certainly listened to the one about, uh, what are the rituals, uh, that, uh, that you were embracing your life. That’s where rest comes from. Yeah. Uh, I, I know where we’re, we’re near end, tough time here. Uh, maybe just, uh, final thoughts around, uh, this notion.

What would you, uh, maybe a word of encouragement that you would give to those that are, uh, tuned in and listening today, uh, that are saying, boy, I really want to incorporate rest in my life. You’ve given me some good ideas. Um, what’s the first step for me? What’s one thing that you would encourage them with?

I would say, uh, I, the word that keeps, that, that’s been coming to mind in the, as you were kind of, I could tell you were, uh, wrapping us up, which is, which is a perfect, uh, good hosting on your part. Um, nice job, Rob. Nice job, Rob. Uh, thank you. What was the word plan? Plan and, uh, not, again, not to add pressure, but think of, uh, if you’re listening saying, I don’t know how to do this, and I’ve struggled to do this.

Think of how well you plan in other areas of your life. Maybe it was a recent vacation you took and you planned that and you were excited about planning it, or a weekend getaway or an activity with friends or loved ones that you planned and really got lots out of what we’re encouraging. You’ve got the ability to do it.

We all have the ability to make plans and follow through. Uh, it it’s beginning to plan. How you do this more effectively on a regular basis. And not that just the decision in your head’s gonna be enough, but it starts there, it starts to, what are ways I might start to incorporate more pauses, strategic pauses and rests, uh, into my day-to-day routine so that, again, I’m not building a life I need to run away from.

It’s a life that I, I feel that energy on a regular basis. I think I’d add to that, um, to recognize nobody else is gonna do this for you. Right, right. Uh, and people try. So, uh, and my example is back to vacation, right? We’re literally, your employer has said, and you will take X weeks of vacation as part of this.

If you don’t, we carry a liability. So you do need to take it and you’re still like, nah, I’d rather work. I’d rather get this, I’d rather focus on this stuff. It, it’s literally, it’s yours to do. No one else can do it. And if you don’t, your body will do it for you. So it’s inevitable. The, the question is, do you want to own that or do you want it to own you?

And, and when we own it, it transforms everything. It gives us a capacity to do things that are meaningful, to grow, to connect, to do it in a sustainable way to, you know, it, it, it’s what lets us shift gears. Uh, cuz even when you’re driving to shift gears, it’s a little pause, right? You, you don’t have the foot on the gas while you do it.

There’s a pause in there, right? Right, right. And so I would just encourage people to fully own that decision. And to Eric’s point, start to choose some places in your life where you’ll change the rhythm, right? And even if it starts interrupt, interrupt the curtain. What Introducing. You know, even start on, start in, in places where you have total control.

Start with your weekend maybe. Right. Say, how will I do that differently? And then maybe a morning, or then maybe an evening, or maybe even during the middle of the day. But to fully own that, I think would be my encouragement. Yeah. I was gonna add, uh, and you, you kind of addressed it right there at the end, was just start somewhere.

Right? Uh, it doesn’t mean you have to take every ritual that you’ve maybe created, doesn’t mean that you have to, you know, we have, we’re gonna do, all right, , I am going to execute on 105 strategies starting tomorrow. Right? Right. Just start 70, start five. Impossible. Start some, start somewhere. Uh, start with one thing, right?

Uh, and, and, uh, and just begin to build and develop that until it becomes a, uh, a habit in our lives, uh, a habit of rest. Uh, and, uh, I, I wanna encourage you, if you haven’t had a chance to check out our website, uh, we’ve designed a page living, uh, uh, slash uh, A c t. Uh, and on that page we’ll be giving, we’ll, we’ll have some links to some of these studies that Eric, uh, that you mentioned.

Uh, we’ll have some other, uh, resources that will be there, some books, uh, that we have read, uh, that speak to this, uh, idea of, of, uh, rest and, uh, recharge. Uh, but encourage you to take a chance to look at the website and while you’re there, check out everything else that’s on there. All the previous episodes, there’s descriptions, there’s all kinds of content that we have, uh, kind of, uh, correlated into the website.

And we want to thank you for being on this journey with us. We, uh, have been getting just regularly daily, uh, feedback, uh, by text and private message and conversation of the impact of these conversations on you. And it’s just such an honor to just share our journey. Share are the lessons that, uh, we’ve learned and are still learning, uh, and to see how they’re, uh, impacting you and, uh, Uh, we do encourage you to reach out and, and let us know if there’s, uh, topics you’d like us to address.

Oh, yeah. Specifically, I know we’ve got an upcoming episode on sort of, uh, audience questions or listener questions that, uh, we’re gonna be, uh, doing, but we want to hear more about this. But, uh, help us get the message out as, as you’re benefiting, there’s something about paying it forward. There’s something about helping others in all of this.

So, uh, if it makes sense for you, share out the episodes on social media. Add your point of view, uh, that really helps us, uh, reach a wider network of people. Subscribe, stay with us. Uh, we have a newsletter too, so, uh, we will have a newsletter. We haven’t sent any newsletters out yet. Not yet, but the, uh, did you get one?

Yep. I took that. You got . It’s folks, it’s a selective newsletter. , what, what, what we want to do is be able to, but we want to stay connected as we go through. We keep collecting resources, tools, great books. Really, really fascinating stuff that we’re just gonna share out and make available to you as well.

So subscribe to the podcast. Subscribe to the newsletter. Stay connected. Let’s go do it together. Thank you for being a part of, uh, today’s conversation and, uh, continuing on this journey with us. And until next time, uh, again, my name’s Rob Dale, and we’re on behalf of Eric and Trevor. We do appreciate all of you and, and the, the words of encouragement that you have provided for us.