Starting Over: The Art of Reinventing Yourself

Starting Over: The Art of Reinventing Yourself

Steve Osmond:

It feels like you’re drowning. And, but it doesn’t last forever. You don’t always have to know what you will do. You just have to know what you want.

Eric Deschamps:

I am, more comfortable in my own skin than I’ve ever been. The brutal,

Steve Osmond:

Abilene will turn into a beautiful tapestry.

Eric Deschamps:

You are not limited by your current reality or your past. A future self is just waiting to be created. The key is stop waiting and start creating. Welcome, everyone. Great to have you back On the show this week, welcome to the Living Rich Sleep podcast. We’re really excited about today’s episode. Rob and I are welcoming back 2 former guests, who were On the show not that long ago, and both their episodes, got tons of great feedback from our listeners. Welcome back, Jason Spears and Steve Osmond.

Rob Dale:

It it’s like episode 6, return of the preachers.

Eric Deschamps:

Thought that was return of the Jedi, but that’s something else, I think. Whatever. That’s something else. Well, it’s funny because the show got started. We used to talk about, 2 ex preachers and a farmer. And today, what we have is, like a doubling of that equation. We’ve got 4 ex preachers, and our subject today is, you know, reinventing ourselves, starting over. All of us share, something in common, guys, like decades, in church life as church leaders and ex and preachers.

Eric Deschamps:

Life turned out differently for us. We all had to we all left that world eventually, and I’ve reinvented ourselves since. And if I was to ask, you to describe the process of leaving church and reinventing yourself, that’s a huge thing to do, not an easy thing to do. But if you were to describe that in just 1 or 2 words, what words would you use and why? And, Jason, I’m gonna throw it over to you first.

Jason Spears:

I think, for me, it was, like, 1 word that comes to mind that just sounds terrible, but, hopefully, I can Blain it. Selfish.

Eric Deschamps:

Wow. Because

Jason Spears:

the the For the 1st time in my life, I needed to be selfish because I’d become so unhealthy and, like, Mental health issues, emotionally, I was so unhealthy. Ball and depression and, You know? All of those things in the pressure of living in a bubble, it, Like, I just got to the point where it’s like, I’d I’d been taught and, live my life That being selfless was of the highest standard. Like, that’s the greatest thing you could achieve is to give up yourself and

Eric Deschamps:

Right.

Jason Spears:

Lose yourself. Right? And and I had completely lost myself. And and so I needed, I needed for the for one time in my life to be selfish, and it actually was what Wound up saving my life.

Eric Deschamps:

Wow. Wow. Wow. What about you, Steve?

Steve Osmond:

Four top words come to mind that I’m not gonna use, but I’ll share them quickly, and then I’ll Tell you what my number one word is. So the 4, I’m not gonna use, but almost. They were, like, honorary mention.

Eric Deschamps:

They were close.

Steve Osmond:

They were close.

Eric Deschamps:

Top contenders.

Steve Osmond:

So, what was the process like? So, lonely, that was a big part of part of it. Disorienting, So feeling loss, white knuckle. So, like, what the hell’s gonna happen next? So there was a lot of that. Sacred. It also felt like this is a sacred journey that I’m on, but the word that I chose, and I Jason, I can I I feel what you just shared, but the word I chose was necessary? It was a necessary change.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah.

Steve Osmond:

Or else, I would have spent, the rest of my life In what Jason just described so powerfully, mental health lost, living in this bubble, and it was a necessary change that need to take place.

Eric Deschamps:

So good. So powerful. I I one of my words was lonely, Steve, because I think we can all, I think whenever you’re going through major change, I mean, we’re we’re talking about a season of our lives where we left, church behind. Right? Our church community’s behind, and some folks listening might not understand how just interwoven all that was. I mean, we would all end up Facing divorce as well as this as this, process unfolded, and so starting over, on that front, just so much. And so for me, the loneliness was huge. And the other word that I picked was messy. Incredibly messy.

Eric Deschamps:

Not a straight line, not an easy 1, 2, 3 formula, but a very complicated, messy process of literally Reinventing your life when it’s been all in 1 world, and now you’re basically starting from scratch or at least it feels that way. Rob, what was it like for you?

Rob Dale:

Well, I was gonna say you guys are like, I’m so impressed with all these wonderful words that, it’s like everybody. I’m like, yep. Check. Check. Check. Every one of these, I’m like, this is how I’m feeling. For me, it it 1, it was a it was a long process. You know, from the start of when I realized I needed to That I just part of it was a belief system.

Rob Dale:

I was no longer feeling like I believed in what I was preaching and what I was teaching, to when I actually made the decision to leave was was almost five and a half years, maybe a bit longer than that. The word that came to mind, though, was just was hell and, which which is perfect for a preacher to use. Right? And I think part of that was because one of the big mistakes I made, if I look back with the regret I have and how I did it, was How much I tied in the, ending my marriage to also announcing my resignation, I did that in the same announcement, and, of course so that tied in a lot of stuff within the church. And and then the Just the negativity and the attacks and everything else that came my way that it ended up being for probably a year, year and a half afterwards was, What the fuck did I do? You know, I could just just then all of this other stuff came into play, but, yeah, it was absolutely terrifying, horrible. I kept thinking about the worst that could happen. And then and then for me, in some cases, the worst did happen. It it played out exactly as I was Fearful that it would play out and was very, a challenging time for sure.

Jason Spears:

Yeah. Did you guys have the have have the struggle that I did? Like, I always thought, like, I’m not my identity is not wrapped up into this, but But, oh, man, was it? Right? Like Right. My who I was was so enmeshed into what I did, And that was probably for me one of the most difficult unravelings. Right? Did Well Did you guys sense That

Rob Dale:

you never feel the Not

Eric Deschamps:

at all.

Rob Dale:

Not at all. Not at all. Like, for me, I think part of that was, and there was such a fear of, and part of why it took me 5 years was because I I thought, well, what else can I do? This is all I know. I I, you know, I I I came into the church at at around the age of 15. It’s all I knew. All my identity to your point, I was a minister, and I was a good one. And I was a very successful one. And and even at the time that I resigned, was at the top of my game, if you will.

Rob Dale:

Like, everything was going the right way and all of that. But, yeah, absolutely. I was like, now what do I do? I have no skill set Outside of the I believed I had no skill set and that everything I had was wrapped in up in that identity. I relate to that so much, Jason.

Eric Deschamps:

Well and I think I think whether it’s, like, our stories, which again are very, very similar, we’ve known each other for a long time, some of us Longer than others, but share a very common background. But there are listeners, that are tuning in today that, maybe they’re stuck in a dead end job and have been for years, and they’re afraid of making the leap. Right? Or they’re stuck in a dead end marriage or relationship that’s just really not going anywhere. But, Again, we talk about identity, whether it’s identity and what we used to do or identity in a career or job or identity in a relationship. I know there’s a lot of folks that even will stay married, because of the illusion of being a good parent. They don’t wanna give up the illusion of being a good parent. I I think our listeners can totally relate, to the identity thing. I certainly can.

Eric Deschamps:

Steve, how about you?

Steve Osmond:

Yeah. When I was I’m I’m always aware of People listening to something like this, and and what if they’re not religious and that’s not part of their their journey? Maybe their reinvention is more more Career. So as I was thinking about identity, I I bumped into into a word that I bump into lots, quite often, And that’s the word ideology. An ideology is an an idea that is beautiful and then becomes a very complex An intricate system that really demands complete loyalty and demands A complete abandonment of self and embracing the ideology. So while for while for the 4 of us, it’s a religious ideology that we had to reinvent from. For others, it might be a political ideology that they were they lost their identity in their politics, And now they’re just following or towing the party line, or it could be a cultural ideology or an economic Ideology or Right. I mean, there’s the the right now, if you’re on social media, you are getting bombarded with, dozens of Major ideologies that are asking, people to abandon themselves and and find their identity in that particular ideology. And, and so I’m hyper aware.

Steve Osmond:

So because I I did that. I did that for 40 something years. I abandoned myself to a particular ideology when When when it when I see it now in social media, I just say that you’re just trying to get me to buy and to abandon myself, my own agency, my self authoring, and and, so so while people may not be able to relate to the religious part, There’s lots of people that get sucked into ideologies and and have to find themselves deconstructing from that,

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. A 100%. I mean, I think it was Brene Brown who defines community. She says most of us define community as fitting in, But that’s not community because fitting in requires you to sacrifice self, live up to other people’s expectations, follow some kinda Supposed life blueprint that’s not your own. She says true community is belonging, belonging for who you really are. Right? Showing up As you are, for who you are, and being accepted is that. But I think so many folks are, to your point, Steve, trapped in another world. And so whether it’s I know that for us, what led to this momentous change, was probably a lot of pain.

Eric Deschamps:

There were some pivotal moments, and I think pain has a way of doing that, but it doesn’t always have to be pain that initiates it. But, guys and and I get that all 4 of us are ex preachers, so any of us Given the opportunity to answer this next question, could probably take the rest of the show. But if you were to just, like, Summarize it, in a, a short summary of take us back to that pivotal moment where you knew You just couldn’t stay where you were anymore, that you had to make a shift. What was that what was that What was the the the straw that broke the proverbial camel’s back, so to speak, and and, what are some of those early challenges that you faced?

Steve Osmond:

For for me, it it it was, a statement that sounds something like this. Hang on a second here. Hang hang hang on a second. What what what’s going on here? The ideology that I just spoke of and the belief system, just kept falling short, and the the promise was if you try harder, believe harder, Fix some words that are out of line and get some new words and read a new book and do have a new spiritual approach, then it’ll it’ll be fulfilling, then it will work. And and I doubled down and tripled down and quadrupled down On all of that, I went all and pushed all of my chips, and then extra chips I didn’t have, emotional chips I didn’t have.

Jason Spears:

Right.

Steve Osmond:

And, and and eventually, I just said, this this isn’t working. This is not working. And, again, I’m not penalizing anybody else that it work it works for them. That’s fantastic. But For me, this particular brand or breed of spirituality of religion, just didn’t work, for me, it was like a carrot on the end of a stick constantly ahead, and I could never reach it. And, so I I had, you know, 1 or 2, hang on here a second moments and then 3 and then 4 until eventually, I I just said, I I’m just pretending now. I’m I’m Yeah.

Jason Spears:

And then what I scope.

Rob Dale:

I was gonna say I so appreciate your story, and and there’s certainly an episode of of where you tell your story. Because I I remember you share one of those hang on a second moments In your story. And and and, it’s it really is powerful. And I would I would echo you, Steve. For me, it was, I can remember it clearly. It was And and, actually, this ties into what Jason said about identity. It was when I was on my 2 in 2008, I did a motor I did a road trip. I jumped on a motorcycle All by myself 3 weeks, and I traveled across the United States.

Rob Dale:

Hit up a whole bunch of places, ended up at a big bike, a rally, a bunch of stuff that I did. What was interesting is and I connected to all kinds of people along that journey who, knew me, through Twitter, and they were all bikers. Basically, a whole bunch of people that were just passionate about motorcycles who didn’t know me at all as a minister. They only knew me as biker Rob. And all of a sudden for 3 weeks, I’m experiencing this wrestling of This ideology that I have isn’t aligning with the experience I’m having right now. One, these are not horrible people, just because they don’t love Jesus, and they have no like, the whole notion that we are doing something really incredible through our, you know, ministry, These people were living life just fine on their own without anybody telling them what it was good and bad. Right now, they got their own hang ups. The biker community, just like every community, has its own ideology.

Eric Deschamps:

And if you’re not sure about that, just watch sons of anarchy.

Rob Dale:

Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And and many of the other stuff, but but it was interesting because for 3 weeks On this road trip or even in the 1st couple weeks, I suddenly was living out a new identity that had nothing to do with the church world. And I remember making the decision. I need to go home and step away. It took me 5 years, but that was the moment to do, in that place.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. Crazy. Crazy. What a what an experience. I remember you telling that story, Rob, on, the episode where where you share your whole journey. And and, Jason, you were on the show as well to talk about it, but what was that pivotal moment for you?

Jason Spears:

Yeah. For me, it was I was sitting in a board meeting, and, the suggestion was made because our church had grown. We had multiple services. We had, a 1000 people, and the suggestion was made, well, we need to build a new facility. And and, yeah, I was just like

Eric Deschamps:

No. Thanks.

Jason Spears:

I just yeah. I just I just asked you for a sabbatical because I’m Unraveling at the scenes and, like, to to act to take that on. Like, I didn’t have any capacity To start a 18 to 24 month building program where you have to raise all the capital and, You know, all the financial components to it and and and going to you know, we that would completely have shifted what our ministry was focused not. Right? And that was we were really, advocates for the poor and, the poor, the wittly orphan has that was the thrust of our of our ministry. Right? And that would take us into a a whole different shift, and I just didn’t have the capacity for it. And that’s that’s when I knew. I’m like, god. Just because of what was happening to me internally and, you know, all the stuff that I was wrestling with and dealing with to to have that thrown on you to try to handle that too.

Jason Spears:

So you’re trying to be perfect. You have to have the perfect kids, a perfect life. You have to respond. You have to be there for everybody. And then to now be a contractor and a and a foreman And all that, I just that was the moment for me. It’s like, I I can’t do this anymore. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. Yeah. For me, it was the the death of my dad after 2 years, battling lung cancer. And during that period of time, I had been I I was already Don, I think my my faith in the system was already almost nonexistent, and it would take, his death and his passing after that courageous battle of his, you know, 24 months long That I I said, you know, life’s too short. I’ve been unhappy. I’ve been unsettled for too long, and that became the motivation for me to do something. But It’s it’s like I jumped off the diving board and took the step thinking I knew what I was doing, but it almost started and not almost, started a shit storm for the next, few years where there’d be a lot more pain, and a lot more difficulty. Let’s, Folks, guys, if we could shift gears for a second, talk about, like, what were some of the biggest emotional challenges you faced during that time? And then I’d like us to talk about loneliness and the re the disapproval of loved ones during that process.

Eric Deschamps:

So maybe those 2 questions, and I wanna start shifting Into what did you do to find your way? We wanna make sure we’re offering lots of practical advice today, but what were some of those biggest emotional challenges, in those early days, after that pivotal moment where you you literally jumped off the diving board.

Steve Osmond:

Yeah. I’ll I’ll go get first again, and then, Jason, next time, you’re gonna go first. It I think Brene Brown called it a brutal unraveling, and and and that’s what it what that’s what it was for me. It was a brutal unraveling. Be It was so much my identity. I I’m I was ray raised in it. I went went to Public school, high school, after college, my only real career, my income, my social network, my success, everything was attached to this one thing, this one ideology, or this one way of viewing the world, And so that was a it was a brutal I I actually went into some form of nihilism where life lacked meaning completely.

Eric Deschamps:

Right.

Steve Osmond:

When I I would in many conversations, I would say things like, you know what? A 100 years from now, they’re not gonna remember any of us, And life doesn’t matter, and whatever the fuck we do is what we do. And and, and that wasn’t just, A cavalier, and I was like, that’s Yeah. That’s where I I hit in that there’s no purpose. There’s no value. And Now looking back, I realize, oh, that’s part of that brutal unraveling. We are letting go of something you’ve gripped For so long, and before you have anything else to grip yet, that space in between is just brutal. Yeah. And, And, that the feelings are being lost.

Steve Osmond:

So looking back now, it makes sense, but in in the in the moment, if anyone’s in If anyone listening is in that moment, I get it. It feels like you’re drowning. And, but it doesn’t last forever if you keep moving forward. And I wanna skip ahead to the solutions, but if you keep moving forward, eventually, it will make sense. And the, the the brutal, unraveling will turn into a beautiful tapestry of reinvention.

Eric Deschamps:

So good. Love that. Love that. But the fear is a thing. Right? To to your point, you’re leaving everything you know and knowing that it’s not Doing it for you, that you’re unhappy, that you’re burnt out, that you’re depressed, that you’ve lost your way, And yet the fear of launching into something new, and and taking that step can be crippling. And it kept me stuck for years, because I had been contemplating making that shift, you know, long before my dad got sick. And and yet, like you, Rob, you you talk about 5 years. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:

Sometimes it takes a while for this stuff to move itself down into our Our actions, doesn’t it? Jason, what

Jason Spears:

about you?

Eric Deschamps:

What were we’re oh, sorry. Go ahead, Rob. Jump in.

Rob Dale:

Well, I was just gonna say, and I just so appreciate what what Steve said there, to encourage, and that is for those that are listening that are in that moment. And I know that we’re again, where we are right now talking, where we are in this conversation, where we’re going with it, but it is important even in the the the the hope. And, as brutal as it was, I will say this. One of these the saving things for me Was, in my case, I had you, Eric, right, where you had just gone through this process. You’re a few years ahead of me in the process, and I was able to at least even though

Eric Deschamps:

Even though even though wait. Just so all the listeners are clear. Even though I am much younger than you, Rob.

Rob Dale:

Yes. So much younger than than me. And, and and so less good looking than me.

Eric Deschamps:

The I’ve got a great face for radio.

Rob Dale:

The but the reality is is that I was able to to see where you were at, and we weren’t Close at that point. We were acquaintance is what we we, you know, certainly hadn’t built the friendship we have today. But at least I, in the midst of all of the again, hell is the word. Going through all of this, I was able to see you Starting to come out the other side, and I knew that if I just keep moving, that I would get there as well. And that was probably one of the Most important things early on in the process.

Eric Deschamps:

That that’s so powerful. Isn’t it true that even though we are scared shitless at times To, leave the status quo behind and strike forward into a new direction that we’ve never gone before, that we may be taking that journey Frightened, lonely, right, unsure if we’re doing the right thing, thinking maybe we might be losing our minds, like our our Am I crazy to make this leap? And yet what we’re doing is giving other people permission, and encouragement to say it is possible. I mean, I you know, I’m on the other side of it now as we all are, and I know that all of you have said in one way or another, I am, more comfortable in my own skin than I’ve ever been, and I wouldn’t go back and change anything that I did. I might do things slightly differently.

Rob Dale:

Right.

Eric Deschamps:

But I am so glad I made the leap, and I know that’s everyone’s story as well.

Jason Spears:

Yep. I think for me, it it was just a fear. Right? The fear of actually doing it.

Eric Deschamps:

Right.

Jason Spears:

Like, you wouldn’t be of, a 4 former preachers podcast if if I didn’t say, well, in the book of Exodus,

Eric Deschamps:

The Most people don’t know what that is.

Rob Dale:

It’s No.

Jason Spears:

They I know. I know. I know. They don’t. Yeah. But go look it up. No. No.

Eric Deschamps:

You could buy it on Kindle. Like, the

Jason Spears:

that’s right. That’s right. The the children of Israel, right, being enslaved in this culture, right, in, in this world in Egypt. And then then all of a sudden, you know, Moses Comes up to be their deliverer, and then they they walk across on the dry land, and and everything is behind them. And then Then they get out and they start wandering around. Like, where is the promised land? Now what? Right? So once you actually build up the, courage To take that step, it’s like, okay. Now what do I do? And that’s really when even a a different Fear sets in. Right? Like, did I so so then you start questioning everything.

Jason Spears:

You start looking back at, you know, did did I actually make the right decision? Could I have lived in that, you know, just to maintain status quo? Could I could I have done that? Right? Wow. And and deep second guessing yourself. And it’s really not until Like, for me, I was wandering around aimlessly, and and and it’s not until you have that new community to connect with. Right? Like, Steve was a was a huge blessing for me. You know? He and while I was going through my divorce, and and and I was just I was so distraught in the pain of it, and and he would constantly, check on me and encourage me, and he’ll say, Speerzy, I’m gonna I’m gonna call you every week now. I’ll ask you 3 questions. 1, Are you drinking enough water and not just boobs? 2, are you are you getting enough sleep? And 3, Are you spending quality time with people who love you?

Eric Deschamps:

No. I love it.

Jason Spears:

And and it was so powerful for me because it was like, alright. I’m I’m out here. I’m I’m doing it. And and, you know, then COVID hits, and so you’re isolated even more.

Eric Deschamps:

Right.

Jason Spears:

Right? And and so tried trying to connect and trying trying to to to find that balance. Right? And then, You know, Steve had introduced me to you guys, and and and that was such a huge component for me to overcome my fear of actually being afraid to leave that life to begin with.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. Huge. I mean, you talk about second guessing yourself, Jason. For me, part of it was I had such a low, well, I talk about the deep self loathing that I had for so long. The biggest second guessing for me was, if only I was a better person, I would have made it work. If only I was a better man, I would have made my marriage work. I would have kept my family together. I’d still be, you know, in the pulpit, but I I’m somehow deficient.

Eric Deschamps:

So I that’s that’s not available to me. It would take me years To overcome that. But let’s let’s talk about you talk about the importance about Steve reaching out to you and saying, are you drinking enough water? But the the outreach and how important that was. Let’s face it. The loneliness and the disapproval of People closest to us when we’re trying to make a significant change like that. I know Kate has talked on the show openly about what her Some of the biggest pain she still processes is of breaking up the family unit. She was the one that decided to leave after, many, many years of marriage, and she still carries that pain sometime often of, a a feeling that. But the loneliness and the disapproval of others, what was Your experience, and how do you guys how did you deal with that? Jason, you’re up first this time according

Jason Spears:

to Steve. Now. That’s right. According to Steve, I guess it’s my turn. I got a lot of, man, what are you doing? Right. You know? Like, why why aren’t you using the gift that god has given you? You know? And, why did you choose to do something else? Why did, You know? Why aren’t you in ministry anymore? And, you know, though, that word ministry just means to help. Right? So just because I might not be standing on a platform talking to people every Sunday. It doesn’t mean that I have given up my life of helping other people.

Jason Spears:

Right?

Steve Osmond:

Right.

Jason Spears:

But it was it was it was that, you know, I had a lot of gracious Hind people who stuck with me and had a lot of good people, like like you 3, Who believed in me enough when I didn’t even believe in myself. I didn’t even believe I could reinvent myself.

Eric Deschamps:

Right.

Jason Spears:

And, you know, that was that was a huge struggle, You know, overcoming the self self loathing, like, you’re talking about Eric and and just being having to cognitively restructure, My mindset

Steve Osmond:

Right.

Jason Spears:

Was was so huge, for me. And, But I I literally could not have done it, without incredible people in my life.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. Yeah. Like, it speaks to the power of community. Right? But there there is this period. Right? In AA, they talk about your upper companions and your lower Companions. The upper companions being the people that encourage you and call you higher, invite you to be that best version of yourself. And then there’s the lower companions that Won’t call you on your shit or quite comfortable to have you wallow in the mud with them because that’s where they’re comfortable. But when you when you make a major life transition, Sometimes it’s no companions.

Eric Deschamps:

You’re stepping out. It’s like you’re they talk about, you know, what’s what’s at the, You know, when when God closes one door, he opens another. I remember that saying. Right? Well, that’s bullshit. Right? He, That may happen in time, but what people don’t talk about is life in the hallway because that other door that’s supposed to hold open Doesn’t open right away. It often requires you to make that choice, take that stand, say enough is enough. This isn’t working for me. I’ve got I’m dying here.

Eric Deschamps:

I’m I’m I’m losing myself in all of this. And you take the step, door shuts behind you, and there’s the hallway With no clear direction. Right? What was that last time, Rob?

Rob Dale:

I was gonna say, and I love that, and you using that analogy, the idea that So many people and some that might be listening, we often we are waiting because we want the other door to open before we ever close the. Right? So we’re holding on to the door, and it’s still open. And we’re looking and peering out wondering when’s the other door gonna open. And in most Major life changes regardless of whether they’re spiritual or, you know, in our context of what we have or whatever somebody’s going through a life change, there is that leap of Of faith, I guess, is the right word there. Right? It’s the leap of the unknown into, well, when is this door going to open? I know for me, I had 2 kinda really Big on the negative side, 2 reactions. 1 was certainly p parishioners and people that were closest to me were very vocal in their disapproval. And then on the other side of it was, the people that I thought were my peers, silence. And the silence was deafening.

Rob Dale:

I thought and I and it would but it would also help me to realize that they weren’t my community Because I had very few of them, reach out.

Steve Osmond:

They are our community as long as we stay with In the ideology or or within the thing. And then as soon as you soon as I left it, now I’ve betrayed, Betrayed it. By the way, if I was still a preacher, I would I just got a great Sermon title, it’s called life in the hallway.

Rob Dale:

I actually

Eric Deschamps:

yeah. Right? A guide guide my church actually back. I I I preach Just a sermon. This is before I left, called life in the hallway. He would go on to write a song about it that was actually pretty powerful.

Rob Dale:

Right. I don’t think that’s it.

Jason Spears:

That’s not what

Rob Dale:

people think about it.

Steve Osmond:

It’s something like that.

Eric Deschamps:

But but doesn’t any change? Again, to your point, Rob, I mean, we’re just we’re talking about our past here, but whether it’s, you know, starting a new job, starting a new career, you know, understanding that perhaps you need to elevate or upgrade your friend group because they’re just no longer, you know, Where you are anymore, and they’re holding you back. All those things come with tremendous, tremendous fear. And, I think it’s Keegan and Leahy in their immunity to Change work, they talk about how most people never, in adulthood, never mature beyond beyond what’s called the socialized mind, which is this whole drive to fit in, this whole drive to be part of the tribe. And that only a percentage of folks, a small percentage becomes self authoring where we’re defining ourselves and, finding our own voice and determining our own future. And and even fewer, I think it’s less than 3% become self transforming. But the the power of peer pressure, We we think it’s only a teenage thing. Right? We talk about it, when we’re teeny, but, man, it’s a deal when we’re still adults. It It continues to rear its ugly head.

Eric Deschamps:

Guys, talk to me about some of the the things that you, had to overcome, in making those changes, what were some of the strategies? We’ve already talked about a couple of them when it comes to, like, outreach and support and, the upper companions. But what were some other things that were crucial, to you navigating this change and now being able to say on this side of it, I’ve never been happier. I’ve never been more comfortable in my own skin.

Steve Osmond:

Yeah. I I maybe I’ll mention this might feel like we’re circling Back a little bit, but, overcoming the loneliness and the fear happens when That new community begins. I was in one of my in annihilation moments of life is Purposeless. Life is meaningless. And I got, and I got a text on my phone, and it was our our our man here, Jason Spears, saying, I’m in Calgary. Do you have time for lunch? And he he said, I’m gonna take you to the finest restaurant in Calgary, Alberta.

Eric Deschamps:

So he took me to the studio.

Rob Dale:

Like, what is Time. Time is meaningless. It’s all meaningless.

Steve Osmond:

Right. Anyway, he took me to the to he wanted to just go all out and and And show me how much he cared, so he took me to the Olive Garden. And

Eric Deschamps:

Wow. And the Olive Garden,

Rob Dale:

if you’re listening, we take, sponsorships.

Eric Deschamps:

That’s right. That’s right. You might need them after this show.

Steve Osmond:

I I I wanted to say that in that moment, Jason, listening, understanding, not trying to fix, but just being there Sparked sparked hope. I I mean, I I know that I could take you to the table we we were sitting at and, what side Jason was on, what side I was on, And the hope that that spark because hope, when we were preachers, we all knew that, hope, are the, Now the eyes of the window of the soul, or it helps the soul see what could be. And and when you lose hope, it’s it’s hard to move forward. It’s hard to engage in a in a process of transformation. So I think, overcoming hopelessness, and getting hope, and there’s many sources that we can find hope. I mean, sometimes it’s a book, for example, Most of us have read The Alchemist. That’s a incredibly powerful book that that stirs hope. It might be a movie we watch or a story we read that Nights at hope in hope in us, but for me, it was, my friendship with Jason, but also gentlemen, I I I wanna mention you, Rob, and you, Eric as well.

Steve Osmond:

And I was sitting in a pretty dark place, and, you extended the invitation to do some work alongside you. And, I just began to see, oh, maybe there is room for me at the table, in terms of the professional table, like,

Eric Deschamps:

Right.

Steve Osmond:

Right. Not in terms of am I welcome as a human, but where can I where can I reinvent myself to make a living and and be a Be a professional in this world, and, so if if if you’re listening today and you have the opportunity to offer hope to someone, please do it? Don’t hold back. And sometimes it’s just a so good. A text or be willing to spend $30 at the Olive Garden.

Jason Spears:

Well, let’s eat breadsticks, man.

Eric Deschamps:

Literally. Yeah. Right? I I think that hope is so powerful. It’s, it’s been called the currency we all long for. And when it’s absent, man, it can be so so dark. And And what’s interesting is, I’m looking on this call right now. I’m looking at all all 3 of your faces, and I think at one point in time, I asked each one of you a question, that that kinda set you on a course. And and that question is, would you have you ever have you ever thought about coaching? And it was a question I asked myself years ago when I was making the shift, a question that, I asked you, you guys wrestled with.

Eric Deschamps:

I mean, here’s the reality. Finding purpose post transition. When your entire purpose in life, meaning, The identity we talked about at the top of the show has been in one direction. How do you go about finding it or or refinding it or rediscovering it, post major life change, what what what how would you guys answer that?

Steve Osmond:

I don’t think I was aware at the time, but now having, I it’s been really about 12 years since I left pastoral work. So now looking back, I can, I can see what was happening, and it’s found in the word adjacency? So what what is adjacent To me, to my motivation, to my skills, to my understanding, to my areas where I’m confident. So even if you just may made a list of those 4 things, my what what motivates me, what are my past skills, What do I understand about the world or certain markets or certain industries, and then what am I confident in? And then from there, Ask the question, what opportunities in the marketplace are adjacent to those 4 categories? And I’m actually doing this work with, a client of mine right now who’s transitioning from a significant career positioning position into another, position. And, until she did that work of actually consciously asking the question, what opportunities are adjacent To me, I don’t need to go back to school and totally reinvent myself. May maybe maybe that’s what you do. But already, if you got A a history of success, a history of work, there are so many opportunities that are adjacent to you, and so I I would encourage you just to say, okay. Let’s get my hope alive again, and I start asking some questions, about adjacency. I and I I would recommend a book.

Steve Osmond:

I I know you guys always say you’re gonna put it in the show notes. I should have sent you this in advance, Eric, but I forgot. It’s called The Earned Life, The Earned, e a r n e d, The Earned Life by Marshall Goldsmith, And it really is a book about how does how does someone succeed in life professionally. And he’s a coach. He’s a fantastic coach, And so he writes it from that perspective. And so I it it it again, I was doing it unconsciously or unaware of what I was doing. Now, over a decade, in the into the future, I can see that that’s what was happening.

Rob Dale:

Yeah. Yeah. You know what? I I think I did the so I love that you said that, Steve. I It it was the same for me as I as I stepped into the unknown. One of the things that I and I I didn’t have the language for it. I wish I had the living richly model, at the time, of course. Right? It’s yeah. There’s so much that’s there now, and that’s what I’ve I guess I would encourage somebody who is Listening now and deciding to make change to certainly go back.

Rob Dale:

Listen to some of these episodes where we talk about how do you find your So I, you know, to I used, created the language of personal mission. What what am I about? Who am I? What matters? And and it fits into a lot of what you just said, Steven, I think that was one of the most freeing exercises because I realized that my identity wasn’t wrapped up in what I did. And when I started to understand the passion and all of that stuff, and it was some of the work even in our, certified as as professional business coaches, going through some of those exercises early on. There was some stuff that came out of that Where I began, and I’ve kept it. I’ve had it for probably 10 years now, is is this just this one line that just says this is what I’m about. And Now I can live it out in all kinds of different scenarios because my work isn’t, the definition of who I am. I’m I’m seeing it from somewhere else. So I absolutely, the tools that we have, even with the living richly model, fit into what you’re describing, Steve, are some of the things that people can use to first figure out who are you and then worry about what you’re gonna do next.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. It isn’t it interesting that, usually massive or major change or life, are reinventing ourselves is born out of, What we don’t want anymore. Yeah. What doesn’t work for us. And then I know for me, and it sounds like for you guys too, it would take a while To actually figure out what does matter to me. What is it that I want? What is it that makes me happy? And I think that’s why we’re so passionate About this movement, because it’s much more than a podcast. It’s it’s about people waking up, and showing up at the in their own lives, Not just living a as puppets to other people’s expectations, but finding their own way forward. And that doesn’t always need to be major upheaval, but some disruption required, I think, to in that process.

Eric Deschamps:

Right? Jason, what were some of the Key things that were really fundamental. If you were to say the top 2 or 3, and, again, we’re we’re gonna start winding up the show here, but top 2 or 3 Strategies or, things that really helped you navigate that season of your life.

Jason Spears:

Yeah. I I, To your, point earlier, you did ask me the question, have you ever thought about coaching? And I’m like, basketball or you know? But but I never thought I could. Right? I I had to get outside of this belief that I was only as good. Like, I spent my entire adult life doing this one thing. So to now move into something else, I don’t even know if I could do that. Right? Because, like and and I should have sent you this book as well, and we’ll put it in the show notes. Doctor Lisa Feldman Barrett wrote a book, called How Emotions Are Made, The Secret Life of the Brain. And and she says, So, basically, in every waking moment, your brain uses past experience to guide your present sensation.

Jason Spears:

And so your brain sips through its library of past experiences looking for something similar to what is currently happening. And that’s why you see people who, like, in the NBA championship game, they’re down one point. A guy gets It’s foul. No time left on the clock. He’s gonna make 2 free throws to win it, and he walks up there and nails both of them versus the guy who, airballs 1, breaks the other one, and they lose. Right? One guy wins, the other guy loses. It’s it’s this, I’ve I’ve practiced that enough. Like, if your brain can’t find in your past That’s similar to your present.

Jason Spears:

You’re in a state of what most brain scientists call experiential blindness. And so I found myself incredibly blind experientially and and professionally going, I don’t know. And then so that So you fight that imposter syndrome and and all of those those things that constantly, attack you in your mind is just changing and shifting the mindset and and training and practicing. Like, Dwayne Wade was asked. He he played for the Miami Heat for all those years. He won championships with LeBron and all that, and he had to make free throws at the end of the game. And and they said, Dwayne, how did you step up and make those free throws to win the game? You you you just made it look effortlessly. And and and he said, probably because I made 300 of those yesterday.

Jason Spears:

He he said, I I went up there and said, I just dropped 300 of these last night at practice. I’m good. Like, my mind went back to just 24 hours previous to I’d already done that. Right? But what happens when you haven’t done it? You know, during, y’all remember when that guy Sully Landed the plane in the Hudson River

Steve Osmond:

Yeah.

Jason Spears:

When the birds hit the engine and everything like that. And, I heard a I heard a pilot talk about, he was asked, you know, Matt Matt didn’t solely rise to the occasion. He’s like, no. He defaulted to the level of his training.

Eric Deschamps:

Right.

Jason Spears:

He said people don’t rise to the occasion. They default to the level of their training. And so for me, it was I needed, you know, I had wonderful people, all all of you guys, Trevor and and and so many other people who who believed in me that I That I could make that transition into this, new world, in this new life, in this new profession, that I I spent all of my waking moments practicing.

Eric Deschamps:

Right.

Jason Spears:

What can I do to to create those Those new experiences, because you’re you’re you’re continually cultivating your past? The experiences that you have today Become the past that your brain uses to make predictions for tomorrow. Right? And and and so I had to spend every Ounce of energy just practicing. I’m not worried about what happens, like like, if I don’t Outland that client, when I go to a discovery meeting, oh, well. You know? But I’m I’m going to invest in practicing, for my for my tomorrow, basically.

Eric Deschamps:

I love that. I love that. Gentlemen, lightning round. We’re gonna go as quick as we can here, so these are bite size only. To the folks that are listening today’s show, that are on the edge. They know they need to make a shift, but their fear is holding them back, and they’re just not sure where to go. Lightning round words of advice, And you’re not limited to 1, but I will cut you off when we run out of time. What would you say to our listeners? What’s the bit of advice that you have for them from the life lessons you’ve learned?

Jason Spears:

Somehow, it will be full circle.

Steve Osmond:

Somehow, when When the puzzle is solved or when, you find yourself in that new place, something in your past that you’ve Succeeded at or achieved will be a major contributor to your future, and and that might be professional. It also might be more spiritual or experiential, but something that you’re letting go of is gonna come back and kiss you on the lips and and and give you a gift that you didn’t even believe could hap. So don’t throw everything away. Of course, you’re you can throw some things away, but don’t throw them too far. Keep them within reach. Keep them within reach, and and, There’s something about the full circle of life that is gonna surprise you is so beautiful.

Eric Deschamps:

Love that. Love that. What about you, Jason?

Jason Spears:

I think for me, I heard somebody say this and it made so much sense to me. Said you don’t always have to know what you will do, you just have to know what you won’t. And to clearly define that, like, alright. I’m not going back to to that anymore, or I’m not gonna lean on this, or or or I know what I won’t do, and then then go from there, start from there, and you’ll like Steve said, you’ll you’ll find, A whole new world is waiting for you on the other side.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. So powerful. What about you, Rob?

Rob Dale:

I would just very simply, the The timing will never be perfect. And to recognize and one of the, the phrases that both Eric and I use on the show all the time is the universe conspires with you. And if you don’t take the leap today, the universe will just set things up again for you to be able to take the leap tomorrow.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. Love it. I I would add to all that incredible wisdom. I would say, believe a better tomorrow is possible. You are not limited by your current reality or your past. A future self is just waiting to be created. The key is Stop waiting and start creating. Last and final question to Steve and Rob.

Eric Deschamps:

And, guys, I’m gonna ask you to give me, like, the, the elevator pitch version. Your definition of living richly over to Jason first. What does living richly mean to you?

Jason Spears:

Living richly is being authentic. And, authenticity is when your words are truthful and you believe what you’re saying, and you can live out of that. That’s living rich.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. I love it. Beautiful.

Steve Osmond:

Living richly for me is, an integrated life. I spent a big chunk of my life compartmentalizing. I’m still unraveling that whole weirdness in my brain, but the more my life is integrated, physical, emotional, Spiritual, intellectual is the more that is integrated, the more I live a rich life.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. Love it. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us On the show, again, it’s always a delight. We’re sure to have you back, but this has been such a great conversation about the challenges Of reinventing yourself, of starting over. And, for those of you that are watching, thank you so much for tuning in this week. We appreciate you, tuning in week to week and being part of the Living Richly Nation, this incredibly community that’s forming. We do ask you, if you like the show, please like, share, and and get the word out. Help other people get on board.

Eric Deschamps:

And we’re really excited about a new resource available to you. You can sign up for it by emailing us today at info@livingrichley.me, and it’s so relevant to today’s conversation. If you don’t know what next steps to take, this might be it. We are creating a create your life vision guide, and that’ll be available as a free resource filled with some questions that you can be asking yourself to help you figure out, not Not what you don’t want, but what you actually want to start crafting, the life you’ve always dreamed of. Thanks again for tuning in, everybody. You can also find all our resources at living richly dot me. And until next week, get out there and live your best life.

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