Prioritizing Passion – Tiffani Westerman on Being a Joy-Driven CEO

Prioritizing Passion – Tiffani Westerman on Being a Joy-Driven CEO

Tiffani Westerman:
If you don’t like your job, quit. If there’s something more exciting or something that’s gonna light your fire in a different way, go do it instead. I’m a lifelong continual learner. I love to learn new things. It’s always really been how do I just level up from here because mom needs a refill. Right? Yeah. And they get that too because it’s like I cannot pour into your cup if mine’s empty. You don’t putting one foot in front of the other, you will get where you’re going.

Kate Beere:
Welcome to the Living Richly podcast. Super excited today as we have a special guest. We have Tiffany Westerman with us.

Tiffani Westerman:
Hey, Tiffany.

Kate Beere:
For being here. Good to

Eric Deschamps:
have you here.

Kate Beere:
Tiffany, CEO of Wesley Clover Services, mom of 2 amazing boys. I can say that. I’ll tell you why later. Daughter, sister, so many things. Super excited to get into it and learn more about you.

Tiffani Westerman:
So Thank you. Happy to be here.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. I’m, so I hear there’s a bit of a story between the 2 of you. I’m hoping today’s interview goes better than the first time Kate interviewed you, and you didn’t get the job.

Kate Beere:
Yes. Yes. So for the our listeners, when Tiffany and I were chatting before the show, Tiffany and our our oldest sons, have been friends since grade school. So we know each other and have known each other for a while because they’re about to go on their last year of high school. And we were chatting before the show, and Tiffany’s like, yeah. You remember when you interviewed me?

Tiffani Westerman:
And I’m like, what are

Kate Beere:
you talking about? She’s like, yeah. McMillan at the ad agency. I’m like, no. I’m like and she’s like, and you didn’t hire me?

Tiffani Westerman:
It had to come up. It had to come up. Right?

Eric Deschamps:
It’s like works through it.

Tiffani Westerman:
Because you’re gonna interview me again. So it’s like, well, now, you know, be a little nice.

Kate Beere:
Yeah. Yeah. And had I only known that, you know, now winner of winner of 40 under 40. Congratulations.

Eric Deschamps:
Congratulations. That’s a huge milestone.

Kate Beere:
Huge accomplishment, for our non sort of Ottawa, folks. Big accomplishment being recognized as one of the top leaders. I think it dives into all kinds of I don’t know all the criteria, but business criteria, leadership, community. So congratulations. Massive. Yeah. Thank you so much. How does it feel? Did you ever think you’d be here on a podcast be talking about how it feels to be, you know, nominated and now winning for 40 under 40?

Tiffani Westerman:
You know, I’ll I’ll say yes, actually. No. Maybe not on this podcast with you.

Kate Beere:
Yeah. That’s a weird term.

Tiffani Westerman:
It is a weird churn, but I’m excited about it, and I’m excited about this for you. But 40 under 40 was a goal of mine 8 years ago

Eric Deschamps:
Wow.

Tiffani Westerman:
When I was a either a technical recruiter or an operations manager in my first tech job. And I learned or heard about 40 under 40 and was like, it’d be really cool to do that. Knew it was a massive stretch with 8 years left in a new industry, but, it was something that I really set my heart on and was, you know, I say I squeaked in in my final hour at 39 years old. Well done. And and to be fair, they do, you know, they do put you through a pretty rigorous ringer to be someone who receives this award. And I wouldn’t have said I was ready any earlier, so I really did kinda squeak in. But, yeah, I really hoped 8 years ago that I that I get this award.

Kate Beere:
That’s amazing. Accomplishment. That’s amazing. You know, you talk a little bit about that path on on getting there, and that path to leadership is never a straight one. And I think for women, it can show up sometimes differently too. So what’s that been like for you, that journey?

Tiffani Westerman:
Definitely not a straight and narrow journey, John. That’s for sure. I’ve done a lot of things, and I think that for me, I I didn’t really know what that end goal was, and I wouldn’t always even say that that end goal was becoming a CEO. It was really just always the next big thing. What what was gonna challenge me? What was I gonna learn from? I might I’d I’d say I’m a lifelong continual learner. I love to learn new things. When I hear someone talking about something I don’t know, I’m, like, immediately sort of attached to it on what can I take from this? And so it’s always really been, how do I just level up from here? And that has definitely, you know, done a lot of this. I’ve been I’ve been in the fitness industry.

Tiffani Westerman:
I’ve been self employed. I’ve been in the tech industry. I’ve, you know, done business operations, technical recruiting. I’ve been a product manager. I’ve built applications. I’ve done a lot of things. But and for me, I would say it was never a pursuit of where I landed today. It was a pursuit of just something kind of bigger and better than what I felt I was doing at the time, and how do I learn something new? And I’m still not done.

Tiffani Westerman:
Right. Right. Right.

Eric Deschamps:
40 under 40 is not the end. Yeah. Is that

Tiffani Westerman:
We’re talking about end now.

Eric Deschamps:
Exactly. But it’s so it’s so fascinating to me because some leaders sort of, like, map out their journey. Right? They have a very clear I mean, you had a very clear path to 40 under 40. That was a very clear goal. But it sounds like your journey has been more guided by your values than it has been by a clear map of the future. Your curiosity, your love of learning, of challenging yourself has just kept you on this path of discovering the next big big thing.

Tiffani Westerman:
Absolutely. And and there’s one thing that I’ve said a lot, and I say to a lot of people still today. If you don’t like your job, quit. And that’s something I hold as probably one of my number one values when it comes to my career is that, you know, if there’s something more exciting or something that’s gonna light your fire in a different way, go do it instead.

Eric Deschamps:
Love

Tiffani Westerman:
it. And I really believe that it’s the best for you and whoever your employer is at the time. It’s it’s, you know, really just go chase something that, you know, the we’ve all heard it. Right? You’ll never work a day in your life if you if you like what you do. Yeah. And I really just fundamentally believe that, and it’s come every time I’ve made that decision and been like, you know, I’m in a really good place, but I’m gonna try something else. It’s always been something that just felt good and felt right, and I still hold that to them.

Kate Beere:
I I love that. I mean, I think that’s at the core

Eric Deschamps:
of a lot. You. I mean

Kate Beere:
Well, yeah. I mean, like, I’m like, I hear all that. But, yeah, I think a lot of entrepreneurs are like that. I think it’s just it’s sort of, you know, do what you want and go after your heart. And I think I mean, I the joke in my family, you hear it all the time is, like, how long are you gonna stay at this job? And I’m like, it’s really, like, k. But, like, I’m like, for me, if I’m not happy, why am I staying? Why am I staying? It’s not good for me. It’s not good for my soul. It’s not good for my employer either.

Tiffani Westerman:
Right.

Kate Beere:
They could find someone that’s happier in that role. So I I applaud that, and I also relate to

Eric Deschamps:
it. 100%. I mean, fee because fear is a thing. Let’s face it. So many people stay in jobs or unhappy in careers or unhappy, and I’ve had so many conversations, with leaders that their only goal is their pension. And they’re they’re miserable every day. They hate their job. They loathe it.

Eric Deschamps:
They they’re not happy. Yep. But they’re, like, hanging on to this future state where they’re gonna get the golden, handshake or parachute or whatever you wanna call it. But in the meantime, they’re unhappy, and that bleeds into their family life. It bleeds into the it bleeds into everything. But the fear of leaving, right, the safety nest, like, obviously, that’s not been something that, how do how do you dealt with fear as it shown up along the way?

Tiffani Westerman:
I think that really plays in for me to to the fear of change. Right? Is that I I’ve done a lot of work on myself and in my career in change management.

Eric Deschamps:
Mhmm.

Tiffani Westerman:
And I think it really comes down to if you feel that stuck, it’s actually not, you know, that you need to stay. It’s that you’re afraid to change

Eric Deschamps:
or

Tiffani Westerman:
you’re afraid of what comes next. And so I I sort of adopted years ago, I love to fail, and I love change. If it scares me, I’m gonna do it. And I’ve I’ve built enough confidence, I would say, now to know that I usually will land on my feet.

Eric Deschamps:
Mhmm.

Tiffani Westerman:
But I walk into that fear just knowing that eventually you get out the other side. And I think that, ultimately, you know, you you just can’t be afraid. Mhmm. You you really have to take that as change management. It’s a mindset. You can do it. You can learn new things. You can try new things.

Tiffani Westerman:
You know, I I there’s a

Eric Deschamps:
girl I work with. She’s gonna

Tiffani Westerman:
love this. But when I interviewed her, she she said something to me that’s so awesome. She was coming into tech for the first time, and I said to her, do you think you, you know, can pick this up? Do you think you can take on that learning curve? And she says, how hard can it be? And she goes, I mean, if you asked me if I could be a neuroscientist, I’d tell you how hard could it be. And and I immediately loved her.

Eric Deschamps:
I was

Kate Beere:
like, yes. Right? Like What

Eric Deschamps:
a great audition. Sure.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. You she gotta go back to school for about 8 more years, but Yeah. Yeah. You can probably do it if it if you really put your mind to it.

Kate Beere:
Yeah. Absolutely. Living Richly is all about the podcast, and and, really, what we’re trying to do is to help people live on purpose. So for you, you know, in this role, what is, like what gets you excited? What, like, drives you? What is that passion that fuels you? Because as you talk about it, you clearly are really enjoying what you’re doing.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. And I hope to you know, probably plays into that I hope to always enjoy what I’m doing. Yeah. And this role for me has I’ve said to a lot of people, I’ve been in I’ve been in the role of a CEO for 2 years now. I will not say it’s easy.

Eric Deschamps:
Mhmm. Right.

Tiffani Westerman:
I will not Right. I say I’m I’m I’m taking an MBA on steroids. You know, I’m drinking from a fire hose half the time. Yes. But, again, to sort of my core of continual learning, I am learning so much in this role that I probably didn’t realize there was so much I didn’t know when I stepped

Kate Beere:
into it.

Tiffani Westerman:
And so it’s you know, again, as long as I’m learning in this space and as long as I wake up every day and I really maybe not every day, but most days and love what I’m doing, you know, we all have hard days. Yeah. That for me will be, you know, I will sit in the seat. And and when the day comes that it doesn’t, I will probably do something else.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. I love that. You talk a lot about the fixed mindset versus the growth mindset. And the fixed mindset often is a person who doesn’t want to put themselves into a new situation because it makes them feel uncomfortable, it makes them feel uncomfortable, it makes them feel no. What the fuck? Right? Like, there’s

Kate Beere:
You want the no? What the fuck? Right?

Eric Deschamps:
Like, there’s all this stuff you don’t know. Yeah. And a lot of folks don’t wanna put themselves in that situation again because of the fear of failure, the fear of looking foolish, the feel of, all kinds of hesitation. But a growth mindset actually seeks out opportunities to keep expanding, right, like one’s view of the world and one’s not. What has been, what have been a couple of the biggest lessons you’ve learned, in your CEO journey?

Tiffani Westerman:
The this one’s been probably the biggest lessons, honestly, and it’s really just the things that even operating at a VP level in a company Mhmm. That you don’t realize are there. You know? And one of the biggest things that someone told me when I took on this job is that it is your job to hold the stress of the business and not allow the business to ever feel it. And that, I would say, is probably one of the hardest parts for me. I’m a very transparent person. Mhmm. You know, if I’m having a bad day, you’re gonna know I’m having a bad day.

Eric Deschamps:
If I

Tiffani Westerman:
have a problem, you’re gonna know I have a problem. And so to, you know, carry some of those those, stresses or burdens and show up and be like, it’s it’s fine, you know, is probably the hardest part for me. Yet because it felt a little like I was no longer being my authentic self, but instead, it’s like I’m actually doing this to allow that burden to not be on anyone else and let them do their job functions appropriately, and it’s my job to handle them. Right? It’s like, if we all came in and aired the grievances of our jobs, we’d all have, you know, probably some pretty horrible days. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So that one’s that one’s probably been my biggest lesson learned.

Tiffani Westerman:
And then, really, I would say it comes down to leadership, and and and I I know we’re gonna get into a little bit of leadership. So that’s been probably for me the hardest part of my job always

Eric Deschamps:
to learn Right.

Tiffani Westerman:
Is my my new role in that leadership position

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
And really what that means to the people that I work with.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Love that.

Kate Beere:
Yeah. What are maybe as we’re talking about leadership, talk about from your lens, like, what are you learning about your leadership style? What are you learning, the things you love? Or what is changing as you’re in this role and you’re in a different leadership role? It’s a different leading style.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. Well so I’ve gone you know, it’s interesting because in the beginning of my career, I based success off of how many people I managed. Right? It’s like Yeah. If I only manage 3 people, I wanna manage 40. Right? Like, you wanna you know?

Eric Deschamps:
And Then you manage 40 and say, can I go back

Tiffani Westerman:
to 3, please? I actually did. I actually did. I went back and was like, okay. Yeah. Scratch that.

Kate Beere:
Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
So I think for sure a lesson learned for me was in the beginning, honestly, I ended up managing a team of about 30 people, and quickly realized I didn’t love it. And and it was because it took away I love to be I I’m that to do list person. I check it all off at the end of the day. That’s my feel good. Yeah. And I turned into just managing people. I also think I pick up a little bit of how people are feeling, and so it became a really heavy job for me. And I really struggled with that for a while when it was like, well, you know, maybe I’m just not meant to be a leader.

Tiffani Westerman:
Maybe I’m just meant to be, you know, the quote, unquote, individual contributor. Yeah. Take me back there. Yeah. That’s great.

Eric Deschamps:
I gotta use that. Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
And so I did actually move into a different role at that time. I moved into, VP of strategy and alliances, and I went from leading that team to leading 5. And I was like, this is much more comfortable for me.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
And I think I struggled with that for a while. I’m like, why am I so to me, we’re all we’re all our own biggest critics. Right? Why am I so bad at managing and leading people? Yeah. And, really, I, you know, I I get so narrow focused on what I’m doing that I’ll just kinda go, like I say, like a train. And the human element for me didn’t come naturally. As much as, you know, I’m a charismatic person. I get along with, you know, most people that I meet. Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
Why is it such a struggle at work? And it’s those social cues of, you know, hey. Kate’s having a bad day. Yeah. Maybe you should pick up on that and go chat with her. You know? And I’m just like, Kate, let’s go out. No.

Kate Beere:
You know?

Eric Deschamps:
That report’s still due by 3

Kate Beere:
years. Like, come on.

Tiffani Westerman:
You know? And it’s like, wow. You know? Someone will be like, Tiffany. Like, Kate hasn’t been herself in 3 days. Yeah. And I’m like, okay. And Uh-huh. So, yeah, leadership’s been an interesting journey for me, and I do think now I’m I’m I’m learning to understand that I’ve had to put the work in on the human side, really to be able to pick up some of those cues and understand when someone needs support or is struggling. Really, you know, scheduling things a little better on actual, you know, touch points.

Tiffani Westerman:
But my job in learning a new role has always been fairly easy. It’s really been the leadership part that for me has been a journey.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
And and, you know, a good one because it it teaches you a lot about yourself to have to really look at, you know, why is something that should be the natural.

Kate Beere:
Yeah. That is so hard.

Eric Deschamps:
Right. Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
And yet, you know, over here on the things that people would call the hard part Yeah. You know, we’re we’re

Kate Beere:
Well, you can’t be good at everything all the time. Like, it’s impossible. Right? Like so there’s parts, and I think every leader is like, okay. I’m great here, but, wow. Like, here, I gotta okay. Okay, I got some growth. Right? That’s what makes you a good leader is that you you’re even identifying those areas and seeking out that growth.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. And and I’ve had conversations. I mean, I’m a I’m an executive coach and leadership coach. I work I’ve had now conversations with thousands of leaders, and what you’ve just shared is so common. Right? It’s almost become a running joke that leadership would be easy if it wasn’t for the people. Right? I love that. The people part of leadership is really where you’re gonna run into. I think as a leader, you’re gonna run into impostor syndrome more often than any other part of your job because most successful leaders, it doesn’t take them long to come up to speed on process, product.

Eric Deschamps:
Right? Like, the business mechanics of it all is usually the easier part. Yeah. Mhmm. But the people side is is difficult. And I’ve heard it said before that just because someone carries it well, doesn’t mean it’s not heavy. Right? And I think leaders carry a a heavy burden. How, you you talked about, the inner critic just a moment ago. And we are our own worst critic for sure.

Eric Deschamps:
Yes. What’s that journey been like for you, and how has perhaps your internal language shifted over time?

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. You know, it’s I I would tie the the inner critic to what you just mentioned, impostor syndrome. Right? And for me, I I joke with my friends that I I live in imposter syndrome con continuously. Yeah. And it’s really, I think, just a byproduct of the career that I’ve had. I’ve moved quickly. I’ve changed roles fast. I put my hand up for roles that I was underqualified for and said, you know, give me 6 months to certify and learn and see if I can pull this off.

Tiffani Westerman:
And so I really have always lived couple steps ahead of where I was qualified to be as far as my career and been challenged to rise to the occasion. So in the beginning, I found imposter syndrome really it was heavy with me. It was really heavy and and really needing to own that I am learning in this role. And so it was hard because in the beginning, I was like, should I even be here? Right? Like, is this is this really for me? Like, who what am I doing? And now I’ve gotten comfortable with it, that it’s I can still acknowledge that I’m my own biggest critic, that sometimes I’m, you know, beating myself up on things that maybe other people aren’t even noticing.

Eric Deschamps:
Right.

Tiffani Westerman:
But I’ve gotten comfortable with being the imposter. Right. Was it Well, that’s

Eric Deschamps:
What is it? The whole, we’re all impostors. Just own that shit.

Kate Beere:
Right? Right. Like, just yeah. Exactly. Own it. But on that, feeling that imposter syndrome, I would imagine being a female CEO in tech comes with that. Right? Like, that’s a part of it. Can you walk us through does it show up differently? It is a male you know, heavy male dominated industry. And and how have you dealt with maybe some of those perceptions that other people have with is with you as a female CEO? Or does it come up even?

Tiffani Westerman:
I’d love Yeah. I mean, I think it come it comes up a lot because of the, you know, the push for more women in tech. Yeah. Right? Is that I do I do you know, and I’m I’m lucky to be one of those women that they put out there to say you can do this. Right? And so it comes up in that sense. I I would honestly say I’ve been really lucky in my own career to be surrounded by a lot of men in tech who have been my biggest supporters. Most of my I shouldn’t say most of. All of my, career mentors are men.

Tiffani Westerman:
And so I feel you know, and I will not say that that’s everybody’s experience. Sure. Yeah. Think that, you know, not a lot of women have the opportunity to grow like I did or have the support that I had. Yeah. But for me, I think that, you know, I I I got a little lucky with the people I ended up working with and people who saw that I had this passion for growth and, you know, wanted to learn and really sort of promoted my ability to do that and and taught me, you know, the wildest things. I’ll tell you, my first role in tech, there’s gonna expose myself hard. But there’s We

Eric Deschamps:
can take it out and pass it over

Kate Beere:
if you want to.

Tiffani Westerman:
No. But there’s, there’s a, in the cloud orchestration called Kubernetes. And in my 1st year, I carried around a notebook, and I wrote down everything that someone said that I didn’t know what it meant. And I’d go home and Google it and try to learn it. And I went back the next day to my CTO at the time, and I was like, I’m guessing Kubernetes is not a vacuum. And he’s like, oh. Yeah. Get in the boardroom.

Tiffani Westerman:
You know? And and he would take me in the boardroom and sketch it out and show me exactly what it meant and how it worked. And, you know, so I was I I feel really lucky to have been surrounded by a a in in my own network, people that really lifted me up, and I I am proud today to show other women

Kate Beere:
Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
That they can get here, but even more importantly, women who didn’t have a tech background. I didn’t go to school

Eric Deschamps:
for computer science. Right.

Tiffani Westerman:
Right? It was you can still change industries. You can still learn these things. And, so I hope to give women the hope that, you know, get in here and just give it a go.

Kate Beere:
Yeah. You you touched on, and I’d love you to talk more about sort of how you stepped into roles and and sort of how you move because I’m I I really want women to hear it because I I often think women don’t take the approach you took to getting promoted. So maybe tell some of that because I think it’s super powerful. Yeah. No. Yes. So I’ll start

Tiffani Westerman:
it with, you know, the answer is always no if you don’t ask. Right? And so, the first, career that I took in tech, I took a step back in my career. You know, pay cut, all the things. I just wanted to get into the tech industry. I knew I knew that it was something that wasn’t you know, it was just watching that innovation boom was exciting to me, and I wanted to, you know, somehow get in there. So I did. But I knew immediately that I needed to grow. Right? It was yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
I went backwards. I need to at least get back to, you know, where I was. And so I was hired as a technical recruiter, and your girl in HR is an interesting an interesting excitement. But, you know, loved pitching the company to people, loved, you know, offering people jobs. Right? That’s a feel good at the end of the day. And we had, again, a a start up. We had a product that we were building, and at the time, there was a, product owner who quit. And the day that they quit, I heard that they quit.

Tiffani Westerman:
And I walked into our CEO’s office, and I was like, I wanna do it. And he’s like, well, what do you so there’s there’s I I love

Kate Beere:
that you wanna do it,

Tiffani Westerman:
but there’s certifications for this. Like, people have done you know, they’ve done these things. And so, actually, I found a, product owner certification course that was at the Holiday Inn in Kanata, and I took it that weekend. Wow. And I showed up on Monday, and I was like, I am a certified product owner. And I haven’t done it a day in my life, but give me 6 months. I said, give me 6 months. If I cannot do this in 6 months, I will help you hire the job.

Tiffani Westerman:
I will even, you know, still support my current role, but I wanna try this so bad. I was so interested in what the product was. And so he said, okay. You have 4. You have 4 months.

Eric Deschamps:
Wow.

Tiffani Westerman:
And I did it. And, really, that’s how every job after that went. It went from, you know, product owner to product manager to VP of product development to VP of strategy and alliance. After VP of product development, he kinda left me alone and allowed me to you know? But every time before that, it really was me walking in and putting my hand up and saying, give me 6 months.

Kate Beere:
So I I love that because, women generally don’t ask. Right? We don’t you know, there’s look at all the research on why women there’s the pay gap. Right? A lot of research shows that women just don’t ask for what Yeah. They want. They don’t whether they lack the confidence, whatever whatever that is, we could I’m not gonna psychoanalyze all that today, but but there is I just think it’s so important that women hear that you can go after what you want. You have a voice. There’s nothing stopping you from from really asking for what you want. A 100%.

Kate Beere:
So do you encourage that in in your people? I’m curious to know how that kinda shows up now for you. Like, are you encouraging that, like, I like, the voice in the room? A 100%.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. And I don’t ever put people in a box of the role they’re in. And I think that really comes from my own careers. It’s you know, if you’re if you’re in marketing and you wanna become Mhmm. Operations of product, sure.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. You know? If you’re if you’re in sales and you wanna you know? Sure. It’s it’s really for me, you look at someone’s core capabilities. Are they will are they, you know, can they roll up their sleeves? Can they learn things quickly? Can they pick it up? Go. Go. Yeah. Who am I to tell you no? Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. But but I absolutely love that because the again, the vast majority of people are waiting. Yeah. They’re just waiting for something. They’re waiting for the right opportunity. They’re waiting for that promotion. They’re waiting for that next relationship. They’re waiting for something to fall into their lap.

Eric Deschamps:
And the reality is the people that live a full life, a purposeful life Yeah. Are creating their their lives. They’re they’re choosing as opposed to coasting, deciding as opposed to drifting. And it sounds like I mean, that’s been your modus operandi. Like, that’s what’s been driving your journey, and I commend you for it. Because, again, I think a lot of folks, the safety of the comfort zone, we’re so afraid to leave that zone.

Kate Beere:
100 percent.

Eric Deschamps:
And yet in that zone, there’s nothing but media there there is safety, and there is comfort, and there are times we need to retreat to it to recharge. But to live there, means mediocrity, means living unfulfilled in the rest of it. Right? So I I love that. The fact that you went after it, and you put yourself out there. Like, talk about not just waiting, but, hey. Give me the job. And if I can’t do it, you know, I’ll step I’ll step down after it’s done or this trial period.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. That’s right. You know, it’s interesting to hear you say that because I think about it. I’m like, as as anything that’s happened to me in my career come to me? And I think the answer is no.

Kate Beere:
Yeah. Right.

Tiffani Westerman:
Like, it it has not. Uh-huh.

Kate Beere:
That doesn’t surprise me at all. I will like, super curious. We know each other. So how does that CEO role, how you are in your career show up with your boys? Like, is is there is there mom Tiffany? Is there, like, do they kinda bleed into each other?

Eric Deschamps:
Do you get performance reviews?

Tiffani Westerman:
They you know, I I my boys are my absolute biggest fans. And, you know, I I joke and say my my kids were raised in a start up, and that’s because they were little when I when I started this journey. And they’re they’re 17 and 11 today. And before I even stepped into this role, we actually I we the the last company I was in, we exited, and I took the summer off, and I took a road trip with my kids. And that road trip was dedicated to talking to them about whether or not they wanted me to take this role and what that would mean. You know, my son our our sons are going away to school next year. Right? It’s like, am I really gonna pour this all out there at a time where, you know, my voice about to take off? And Yeah. One thing that made me really proud on that road trip was that they really are my biggest fans.

Tiffani Westerman:
And and I do believe that I have taught them that a woman in leadership is normal. Right. I love god. It’s like I’m choking up a little bit.

Kate Beere:
Yeah. Yeah. Well,

Tiffani Westerman:
I’m getting into that. So my my older one now realizes, like, you know, hey, mom’s a badass. Yeah. Most most of

Kate Beere:
my friends’ moms aren’t doing this. My son knows it.

Eric Deschamps:
But But

Tiffani Westerman:
my little guy, I don’t I don’t think he he knows yet. Right? Because they’ve just always known mom is a go getter.

Kate Beere:
And Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
You know, I’m a big I’m a big advocate of you know, we talk about work, life balance, which I’m with you. I don’t love. Yeah. But what I do love is a work, life blend. I believe that they just have to coexist, and and that’s always been something that with my kids, it’s like we we we rock a schedule pretty tight. Yep. You know, there’s nights where my son came home yesterday. He’s like, mom, I got a classroom showcase on the absolutely.

Tiffani Westerman:
It’s going in the calendar. Yeah. Will not not be there ever. Yeah. It’s like Yeah. We’re gonna show up for you. And so I think for them, what I love is that I’m teaching them that you can do both. Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. But you have to get up every day and keep going. Yeah. And some days are harder than others. Yeah. There is no no. Yeah. You know, it’s whether or not you’re willing to put in the work to get it.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. And I’ll let you know to check back in a couple years. That’s how that’s going.

Eric Deschamps:
But it’s like so many people have bought into this notion that you you it’s either go for the dream, or be a family oriented person. You can’t have both. And I love how you use the word blend instead of, balance because the work life balance to me is a misnomer. We’re setting ourselves up for an impossible feat. Mhmm. Who can ever balance those two things perfectly? I always get this image of some guy walking across Niagara Falls on a high wire. Right? And one false move, and he’s gonna fall to his death. I use the term work life harmony.

Eric Deschamps:
Right? It’s like a it’s like an orchestra. Sometimes some instruments are playing Mhmm. More prominently. Others are quiet. Right? You’re not not not everything’s equal or even balanced. Mhmm. But it creates this wonderful, music. And I think, when we’re paying attention to the things that really matter to us, we can be mindful of where do I need to invest more time right now? Do I need to lean more this way or more that way? Mhmm.

Eric Deschamps:
But I think the the the chase, this, it’s like chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. This work life balance is bullshit.

Kate Beere:
Yeah. And I I love that you have those family conversations because I do that too in my house. Right? When we went to buy this my single family home after the divorce, this money doesn’t grow in truth. I can’t believe I just said that.

Eric Deschamps:
You did that.

Kate Beere:
I can’t believe what you said.

Eric Deschamps:
I’m not saying that again. Just channeling your mind.

Kate Beere:
I know.

Tiffani Westerman:
Oh, I can hear

Kate Beere:
her in my head. But I remember sitting the kids down, and I’m like, okay. If we buy this house, like, here’s what comes with that. This is, like, no vacation this year. This is like and I’m like, if this is a decision we we make together, same you know, my, like, my parents’ generation, they just we weren’t involved in any decision, any you know, you just you were affected by them and not involved. So I think I love that you kinda take that approach with with your kids too and have those conversations because it does affect the whole family.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Beere:
Your journey.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yep. Yep. And I do I do believe that’s so important to do that with your kids. It’s it’s really I’ve treated my kids, like, I’ll say adults delicately, but, like, because of the honesty of the conversations we’re having always. Yeah. And I do think that it you know, again, we I’ve gone through a separation with my kids. And, you know, as seeing that with my friends my friends growing up, the impact, like you said Yeah. You know, they make these decisions that impact you, but you didn’t really get to be part of that decision or really get a a full, honest conversation about it.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. And I do believe that it allows any of this change to be a lot more tolerable for them. Right? Yeah. And to be like, okay. You know? And I can say, hey. You know, remember when I told you mom was gonna be rocking busy or she had to travel a little more than usual? Yeah. And they’re like, oh, yeah. Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
We talked about it. You know? But we’ll always show up. And Yeah. And when talking about the work life balance, right, I just think of the balance being Yeah. And it’s like, when can you ever throw something on either side and it not just collect density.

Kate Beere:
Right? Right.

Tiffani Westerman:
And if that’s what you try to do, I really do believe that you live in this constant state of, you know, trying to find center and and never being able to success.

Kate Beere:
100%. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
Another one that’s very similar to that is when we we talk about time management. Now talk about another misnomer. Right? Because since, our conversation to to started on the, today here on the show, 30 minutes has passed, and none of us was able to manage that 30 minutes. It just passed all on its own. We don’t get to manage time. Time just is a thing that we all have to deal and and do our best with, but it’s about priority management. It’s about prioritizing what’s important to us and making sure those things happen. But, again, when we set ourselves up with these false notions of I’m so bad at time management, I tell people, of course, you are.

Eric Deschamps:
We all are.

Tiffani Westerman:
Especially if you admit it.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Yeah. Right? Well, there

Tiffani Westerman:
you go.

Eric Deschamps:
But it’s about let let’s get clear on what really matters to us, what really matters to you, what are the big rocks, and then setting those priorities and and managing those within time as opposed trying to manage time itself, especially as a parent with kids.

Tiffani Westerman:
Well yeah.

Kate Beere:
And they’re busy, and they have their own lives too. So along the way, I’m assuming some challenges.

Eric Deschamps:
No. I think it’s been challenging.

Tiffani Westerman:
Always gone.

Kate Beere:
Yeah. Maybe touch on some personal, professional just share with us some of the challenges you face and kinda how you’ve dealt with those.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. So start professionally. Yeah. So professionally, I would say the hardest thing that I’ve ever gone through professionally was, what COVID did to businesses. Yeah. Right? So, at the time, we were on the brink of, you know, probably thinking about exiting the company. We lost 80% of our contracts in one month. Wow.

Tiffani Westerman:
And we had to meet literally every morning on, like, what are we doing here? Are we do we have to, you know, reduce the size of the company? Do we have to our CEO at the time, I don’t think he slept for days because he just refused to watch this fall apart. Right? We ended up a year later growing the company by 200% and exiting it.

Eric Deschamps:
Wow.

Tiffani Westerman:
Wow. Wow. I I do yeah. He I give it to our CEO in sales. I’ll do I gotta give him that. But going through that was such a ride that it was like you know? And especially at the time that we’re all home, nobody’s mental health is great. No. You know? Like, we’re all struggling watching our kids go gray

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
Because they just, you know, lost everything. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
The the and so We forget. Right? Like, we forget the palpable fear of those early months

Kate Beere:
of COVID.

Eric Deschamps:
When it first landed here Yeah. No nobody really knew what it was. We didn’t know what the impact was gonna be on our families, on our lives, on our businesses. I mean, we were dealing with leaders in crisis for I think it was from March till September. I remember saying to my business partners in September, I said, are you guys tired? And we realized we’ve been dealing with leaders in crisis Yeah. For for months months months. Right? Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
And it was, and it it just feels like it’s both sides at that point.

Kate Beere:
Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
Right? I guess no balance.

Kate Beere:
No. 0.

Eric Deschamps:
And Zero harmony. Yeah. Yeah. As well. Right?

Tiffani Westerman:
And so, I mean, you know, luckily, we were able to come out of that on a high. We exited the company, I think it was February, March of of 2022.

Eric Deschamps:
Wow.

Tiffani Westerman:
And then stepped into this role. And so I would say I was cloud 9. You know? It was like I had I had finally gotten to where I thought I wanted to be. Yeah. Right? And, and then to you know, on the more personal side of the of the personal struggle is I lost my brother in September of last year.

Eric Deschamps:
Oh, so

Tiffani Westerman:
after a well, he had stage 4 cancer and was given 6 months. He made it about 2 and a half half years.

Eric Deschamps:
So we

Tiffani Westerman:
did get, you know, more time than we probably should have, but, that kicked the knees out from behind me. You know? And it was

Kate Beere:
only imagine.

Tiffani Westerman:
And it’s amazing to watch, again, the impact it has on both sides. Right? The blend. There’s no there’s no leaving that at home and

Kate Beere:
going home. No.

Tiffani Westerman:
You know? And so it really, I think, honestly, has changed me not just as a person, but also as a leader and even as a CEO. To be fair, it’s made me reflect on a lot of things and decisions you make on where you spend your time. And, you know, the the bad side of that is I had a YOLO mentality going before that. Yeah. Now I really have one. Right? It’s like, my brother was 41 years old. Wow. Like, you don’t know if you’re getting a 101 or you’re getting 41.

Tiffani Westerman:
Right. Right? And so it’s really it’s made me very, very aware of what am I doing every day.

Kate Beere:
And is

Tiffani Westerman:
it is it what I wanna be doing? Is it where my time should be? Is it what lights my fire? And if it’s not, choo.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. And that’s one of the many gifts, right, that, your your grief and your loss has given you is this appreciation for the moment. Like, all we are guaranteed is right now, and living in that is a powerful thing. Because most of us are either stuck ruminating over our past Yeah. Or obsessing about our future, and we’re not here. We’re not here right now doing what we love. Right?

Kate Beere:
Yeah. So so how do you refuel? Like, the who, the what. Like, what what gives you that fuel back after, you know, a long week, whatever?

Tiffani Westerman:
I party.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Nice.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. You know, I do, I do travel a lot Yeah. For work. I travel a lot with my kids. So my a commitment to my kids because, you know, they think going and sitting in a conference hall in some other cities, like all the travel I do without them, So fun. Yeah. But so my commitment to them is we do do a trip a year together. Mhmm.

Tiffani Westerman:
But music festivals is a big thing with my family. It always has been. My kids have been going to Blues Fest since they were 2.

Kate Beere:
That’s right.

Tiffani Westerman:
Little bare feet, babies in the field. Yep. And it’s been a tradition. We’ve kinda kept going. And so, actually, just a couple weeks ago, I did Stagecoach with my sister and my brother-in-law. Nice. We we did our hoedown in California.

Kate Beere:
I love that.

Tiffani Westerman:
And and that to me, it’s really become music and and outdoor festivals that is and traveling with my kids. That’s become kind of my refuel and what I look forward to the end of the day.

Eric Deschamps:
I love it because so many of us aren’t even clear, on what fills our cup. Right? We go through life, sort of a sleep at the wheel of our own life. Right? Not really present to what our values are, what matters to us, what fills our cup. And when you can get clear on that, and we we talk the language we use, what if you got clear on what fills your cup? Whether it be travel, music, the outdoors, whatever it may be. Mhmm. And then try try to even turn the volume up on that, like, 10 or 20%. Yeah. Dial down the noise just a little bit and dial like, what difference would that make? Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
I’d it’s it’s like I think the difference is, like, life is going to be both wonderful and at times horrendous. There are horrible things that happen to us at times that really knock. Mhmm. You said you’ll, like, knock your footing. Right? Yeah. And I’m like, well, why not by by leaning into the things that make us happy? If we did more of that, then we can approach those things from a tank that’s more full Mhmm. As opposed to one that’s empty. Right? I love it.

Eric Deschamps:
We’re a big music. We’ll probably bump into you at Blues Fest. We got our passes, what, 2 weeks ago.

Tiffani Westerman:
I think we passed I think we passed, photos there last year. We missed dates, but, yes, we’ll go together.

Kate Beere:
Yeah. Well yes. Go ahead.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. No. You’d you’ve you just said, you know, it’s hard to to to pour. Well, I’ll I’ll say pour from an empty cup. Right? And it’s really been something that with my kids, I think about that a lot is that, you know, there are times where, yes, I will be a selfish mother and be like, yeah. I’m doing this trip, stagecoach, by myself because mom needs a refill. Right? And they get that too because it’s like, I cannot pour into your cup if mine’s empty. And at times, because of, you know, the the plate I carry, I I take on a lot that it’s sometimes, you know, I have to do that to be able to keep everything in a balance.

Tiffani Westerman:
And I I hope that it’s teaching them to do it too. We talk openly about it. Yeah. And and from there’s a a term we use all the time in our house. It’s choose happy. Right?

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
In the moment, if you’re trying to decide, you know, is what’s the right decision? Which one makes you happy?

Eric Deschamps:
Right.

Tiffani Westerman:
Go and do it. Right. You know? And so sometimes it means you’re being a little selfish in your decision, but sometimes you need to be.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. I so I I love that philosophy, and I actually encourage folks to not even call it selfish because it’s actually the least selfish thing you can do when we I I’m a big fan of what I call radical self care. Right? And that’s not selfishness. That’s not, you know, completely ignoring other people’s needs. Not at all. But I think most of us swing so far the other way Yeah. Totally. That we come last all the time.

Eric Deschamps:
And that means we’re going through life with our tank, like, near empty, and we’re trying to be a great parent. We’re trying to be a good leader. We’re trying to do be a good friend, all these things, but our cup is literally empty. When we focus on making sure we’re good

Kate Beere:
Mhmm.

Eric Deschamps:
How is that selfish when we’re now showing up in all of those dimensions and more?

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. Full. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
We have more to give. We show up more like ourselves and more in a healthy way, and everybody benefits.

Kate Beere:
Yeah. And what a great thing to teach your kids. Like, you’re you know, that you’re showing them that, you know, to take care of themselves. Right? And that’s so important because they have they have so much pressure on them right now, especially, like, with going to school. You think of all the pressure they had that we didn’t have necessarily. Like, I I don’t know if you’ve seen the comparisons on social media of, well, like, a 13 year old when I was 13 and a 13 year old now, and I’m like, holy cow. Yeah. I’m like and I have a 13 year old daughter, and I’m like, holy cow.

Kate Beere:
Right? So the pressure that they have, what a great gift it is to give them to be you know, take care of yourself, make time for yourself. Yeah. Take care of your mental health. Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
And, you know, it it I I think about it

Tiffani Westerman:
a lot too, especially with, you know, working mothers or

Eric Deschamps:
or Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
You know, ones that are chasing your career, and it’s like you go home, and it’s like the laundry, the cleaning, the the dishes, the dinner, the you know, all of it. There’s days I go home and I hit the couch. And I just say to my kids, mom’s on empty. Yeah. It was such a stressful day. Yeah. Tell me what you want off Uber Eats. Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
I’m doing nothing. Like, I’m doing just nothing. You know? And that’s so okay. It’s like, you know, they and and they’re like, alright. Mom’s done. Yeah. Other days, I’m like, what an awesome day. Let’s go out and do something.

Eric Deschamps:
But I but I love that because it’s giving ourselves you even touched on it earlier when you talked about, like, well, that shit is gonna come. There’s no way you’re leaving that at home, you said. Right? We we’ve created this false dichotomy, this, like, Chinese wall between personal life, professional life. And even in our parenting, we often do that. Like, I’ve gotta be super mom or super dad. Yeah. My kids can’t see me sweat kinda thing. And the ability to be human.

Eric Deschamps:
And I love, that what I’m seeing in, in all of my work with leaders and organizations is more and more organizations, the ones that are savvy, sophisticated, that are really leaning into what’s happening are allowing more humanity in the workplace, allowing people just to be as opposed to this big, this big front that we need to project because that requires so much energy. So the courage to go home and say, mom’s on empty. What do you want on Uber Eats? Is teaching your kids it’s okay to be human.

Kate Beere:
Yeah. I they never have times I said to my kids, there’s 3 of you. There’s one of me. Like, I can only do so much. Figure it out.

Tiffani Westerman:
That’s why I said I had 2. I got 2 hands. I got 3 kids. You know? Right. Is that right? Kate, you’re right. Yeah. Yeah. Where where did you

Kate Beere:
pull you? Oh, I’m always

Tiffani Westerman:
losing 1.

Kate Beere:
That’s what I’m I

Eric Deschamps:
don’t know

Kate Beere:
where

Eric Deschamps:
they all are. Arm. Kid. Kid off. I get it.

Kate Beere:
Yeah. 19. Okay. As we’re kinda wrapping up, I’m gonna throw a few rapid fires

Tiffani Westerman:
at you. Yep. Are you ready?

Kate Beere:
It’s me. It’s not hard. Okay. If you could have a superpower, what would it be?

Tiffani Westerman:
It’s like, say something appropriate.

Eric Deschamps:
Or not. This is an adult show.

Tiffani Westerman:
I’d I’d have the ability to read minds. Yeah. Oh, I love that.

Eric Deschamps:
That’s a great one.

Kate Beere:
I would. I would. Yeah. Are you firing or am I firing?

Eric Deschamps:
You’re I think you’re firing.

Kate Beere:
I’m gonna fire all

Eric Deschamps:
of them. Firing.

Kate Beere:
God. Okay. Book. What’s a book you’d recommend to an entrepreneur?

Tiffani Westerman:
I’d probably go with 2 that were recommended to me. One was is the 5 dysfunctions of a team.

Eric Deschamps:
Oh, great.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. Love that book.

Eric Deschamps:
So good.

Tiffani Westerman:
Really taught me to accept and enjoy failure and talk about it openly so that people are not afraid to fail at work.

Eric Deschamps:
We so we actually use that. We’re certified 5 behaviors, coaches. So we actually go in and work with teams using that framework. So I love Love that. Absolutely love that model.

Tiffani Westerman:
Okay. Yeah. And then the second one, Terry Matthews gave me when I started at Wesley Clover, and it’s called Where’s My Cheese?

Eric Deschamps:
Oh, it’s a great book. You’ve got them all. Yeah. Great book. Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
Both of

Kate Beere:
them and and, honestly, Where Where

Tiffani Westerman:
is my cheese is about 80 pages. You can read

Kate Beere:
it in a night. Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. But it it gets you thinking,

Eric Deschamps:
and I

Tiffani Westerman:
and I did really enjoy that one as well.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. We’ll put both of those in

Tiffani Westerman:
the Yeah.

Kate Beere:
We will. Yeah. For sure. I think I already know the answer to this, but favorite way to unwind after a hectic week.

Tiffani Westerman:
I was like, I wanna know what you think of it. No. Yeah. Let’s flip the let’s flip the question.

Eric Deschamps:
What do you think she what do you think the answer is?

Kate Beere:
I think you’ll chill, have a glass of wine,

Tiffani Westerman:
and then, like drink.

Kate Beere:
Yeah. Yeah. There’s alcohol involved. Nothing wrong with that, but I think you’re enjoying yourself. I think you’re you’re doing something to fill your

Eric Deschamps:
cup. Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
I do feel, you know, that I have the greatest group of girlfriends, and they’re honestly just the best supporters of mine, and I do love to get together with them. We do a lot of patios. We like we like our wine and and Prosecco.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Beere:
I have this I have my girls is the same thing. Yeah. I completely get it.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. And community is so important.

Kate Beere:
Community is

Tiffani Westerman:
so important.

Eric Deschamps:
Have people that you can just, again, be with and

Kate Beere:
Authentically you. Like, good or bad.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. My girlfriends threw me a brunch the other day for winning the 40 under 40.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
So good. My favorite part of that whole brunch was that all of them were like, congratulations. I still don’t know what you do. 1 one of them even said, I went on your I don’t understand

Eric Deschamps:
it. Yeah.

Kate Beere:
But I’m really proud of you.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Beere:
I was like, yeah. Well and I love that. I actually love that they they don’t they don’t get it.

Tiffani Westerman:
No. You know? And it’s like because it keeps us just so real with each other that there’s no, like Yeah. You know? I’m like, I don’t I don’t know what you do either.

Kate Beere:
No. Because you talk about life, and you talk about Yes. Exactly. Okay. In wrapping, it’s a living richly podcast, so we close every show with this question. What does Living Richly mean to you?

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. So it’s interesting because I would say for me, it’s still a work in progress. It’s I do believe that a lot of things have allowed me to live more richly. You know, starting with this career journey allowed me to need to take care of myself. You know, the separation from my kid’s dad really allowed the self reflection of, you know, what happened there, who did we become, who am I really?

Kate Beere:
Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
Losing my brother has really sort of again changed it. And so I I do believe that every day, I’m very conscious and making decisions that are to allow me to have a life where I feel confident in that. Yeah. But I would still say that, you know, it it still is, and I’m happy it still is a work in progress. But I think knowing that you’re you’re forever sort of can we all ever really stand in that and be like, I am doing it? Or is it that I am trying every day to make decisions that allow me to

Eric Deschamps:
I love that. I put you on the spot. Last question. This one this one wasn’t canned or prepared.

Tiffani Westerman:
Alright. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
K. Someone’s listening to this show. They’re listening to your story, and they’ve been sitting waiting Mhmm.

Tiffani Westerman:
For a

Eric Deschamps:
long time. They’re not happy. They’re not fulfilled. What would you say to them?

Tiffani Westerman:
Personal or career? Both. I would say, you know, put in the work of self reflection. What is it that you actually, you know, truly wanna do? Talk to people that support you, but talk to people that don’t know you. You know? If you if you don’t have a therapist, go get one. Mhmm. Right. Really having an unopinionated view

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Tiffani Westerman:
Is such a great perspective. Because I know for me, someone, you know, would give me a piece of advice, and I’d be like, you know, are they playing out these other things? Like, I love it. But, after my separation, I started to go to see a therapist. And, really, that was an eye opener for me where it was like, this this woman doesn’t know me

Eric Deschamps:
at all.

Tiffani Westerman:
Yeah. You know? And so I really found myself sitting with things that she said differently. And then at the end of all that, just go do it, you know, to put I tell my kids every day, it’s just one foot in front of another. Yeah. You don’t have to always look 2 years out. You don’t always have to look 10 years out. Yeah. It’s and it’s not even day at a time.

Tiffani Westerman:
It’s one foot in front of the other.

Eric Deschamps:
One moment at a time.

Tiffani Westerman:
And and Yeah. Yeah. And if you just keep putting one foot in front of the other, you will get where you’re going.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Love it. I love that.

Tiffani Westerman:
Love it.

Eric Deschamps:
I love that. Thank you so much.

Tiffani Westerman:
You. Thanks for being

Eric Deschamps:
on the show. Great. And, folks, you heard it here. Stop waiting. Start creating the life you’ve always dreamed of. Life is too short to do otherwise. As always, we remind you to like, subscribe, and share out the show so that we can spread the Living Richly message to as many people as possible. And go to our website, livingrichly.me.

Eric Deschamps:
You’re gonna find out 2 really great things there. One is, information about the Living Richly Nation. That’s our exclusive private Facebook group, an amazing community of people who are on this journey of living their best life, and we support each other and share, our our stories, and it’s just been amazing. And the other is the 15 day life vision challenge that was released just recently. We’re getting raving reviews. Participants are getting clear on who they are, what they stand for, and it’s a free experience. You can find all that information on our website. And again, thank you for tuning in every single week.

Eric Deschamps:
We’re so thrilled that you’re on this journey with us. And until next week, keep living your best life.

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