In this inaugural episode of the series “Beyond Stereotypes – Being a Real Man,” hosts Eric and Rob embark on a transformative journey to redefine what it means to be a man in today’s world. Tackling the pervasive issue of toxic masculinity, they delve into why this conversation is crucial for men, dads, brothers, and society as a whole. With humility and mindfulness, they explore the harmful stereotypes that have long-defined manhood and the pressing need to encourage a more mindful masculinity.
From “mansplaining” to “male chauvinism,” listeners will hear diverse perspectives on how toxic masculinity manifests and its profound impact on emotional well-being, relationships, and societal norms. Eric and Rob don’t claim to have all the answers but aim to ignite a vital conversation about breaking free from toxic patterns to embrace a richer, more authentic life. Join them as they question, challenge, and inspire a new vision for masculinity that celebrates vulnerability, empathy, and genuine strength.
Show Notes for Episode 67
Books & Resources Mentioned in this episode:
For the Love of Men by Liz Plank
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Episode 67 Transcript
Mindful Masculinity
Eric Deschamps:
Hi, and welcome to the Living Richly podcast. We’re so glad, to have you join us again this week. Rob and I can’t say How grateful we are that you tune in every week for, and and support the show. The show continues to grow and reach more people, and we’re so glad you tuned in this week, Specifically, because we are launching a good one. Into something brand new. Part of the evolution of the show, of course, has been the addition of Kate and Wendy many months ago now.
Rob Dale:
Yeah. Some it’s the best thing we’ve ever done.
Eric Deschamps:
Some some being us. Some have said we should probably retire and just turn the show over to them. But Since they joined, since they came on, they have been tackling, not only bringing an important female lens to all of the conversations that were happening, but they’ve been bringing, addressing very female centric topics head on, and I know that’s been really meaningful, to our listeners and to our audience. And, you and I, to date, have not, kind of addressed any male centric topics, and I think we feel really passionate about the this particular topic of beyond Stereotypes being a real man. Tell me why, Rob, from your perspective, it’s so important
Rob Dale:
for us
Eric Deschamps:
to tackle this subject
Rob Dale:
Excited about this.
Eric Deschamps:
You know,
Rob Dale:
you and I, we prepare for all of the episodes. We certainly spend time, you know, kinda behind the scenes for those of you that maybe haven’t been involved in stuff like this, which would be most people. We certainly don’t just sit down and just wing this. We have, obviously, we have notes. We see Ipads in front of us, with notes on it, but we we do a lot of planning. We do a lot of reading. We’re both reading some books around, this topic. I’m a big believer that the the timing now and the opportunity now to have a fresh conversation around what does it mean to be a man Yeah.
Rob Dale:
Has never been better. Their the timing just seems to be people are ready to have the conversation. We’re tired of the same old, same old. The The locker room talk kind of just excuses are no longer really settling for most people, and I think people are at at at no other time Like they are today open to starting to have this exploration around, what does it mean to be a man?
Eric Deschamps:
A 100%. I think the, the the the the strength of the Me Too movement that started several years ago really brought A lot of attention, shone a light into an area of toxic masculinity that really needed to be exposed for what it is. And I think that whole journey, that important correction in our society, very important re sort of resetting of society has has really brought this subject to the surface and has left men, a lot of men, not knowing what it means now to to to be a man. What does What does healthy masculinity look like?
Rob Dale:
So true. And I and I and I do think that there may be some who tune into the show, and they’re all, no. Here we go. Another woke, right?
Eric Deschamps:
Because that’s social justice warrior. Yeah.
Rob Dale:
But but here’s what I’m gonna ask you to do. Before you, you know, skip to the next video, before Or you kind of just, you know, whatever you do, just take a few minutes and just hear us out because I we’re gonna make a case, I think for why this is important, why it’s critical to have this conversation, and why we’re not just falling into some kind of, again, liberal trap of, whatever mumbo jumbo language that this really does fucking matter for men to have this conversation. I said a moment ago, there’s never been a time when people are more open to it. At the same time, there’s never been a time when men are Comfortable having this conversation, including today. For most men, the notion of actually talking about what is what is it to be a man, They’re yelling, oh, and then that’s it. And that’s it.
Eric Deschamps:
Right? Right? Right.
Rob Dale:
That’s all the best that they can get to.
Eric Deschamps:
Well, well, I think masculinity, it it’s a lot like Fight club. You you just don’t talk about it. Right? Exactly. Like, men don’t sit down and talk about what it really means to be. I I guess our goal is to start a conversation here, and, I want to assure our listeners that we don’t come here with all the answers. We don’t come here, to be preachy or to tell people, prescribe what they should believe, but we we really wanna approach this subject over the next several shows that we’re gonna be doing this, and they’re not all gonna be in sequence. You’re gonna see other topics, other shows, other interviews with other guests on different topics, but this is gonna become, at least for the next little while, a regular feature. And we we our commitment is to approach this with humility, to approach it with mindfulness.
Eric Deschamps:
As a matter of fact, when we you and I were discussing our goal around, these series of episodes is to really create a conversation around what it means to be a real man
Rob Dale:
Yeah.
Eric Deschamps:
To, move beyond the stereotypes that, men have been conditioned and socialized to just kind of and and live really as a prisoner to to move beyond all the toxic masculinity bullshit Yeah. And encourage a more mindful masculinity.
Rob Dale:
And what I love about that language, is and we’re gonna use toxic Masculinity a lot today because we’re because we’re we’re laying out the foundation for why this matters and and the case for why we need to have the conversation, But we’re not interested in man bashing.
Eric Deschamps:
No. Not at all.
Rob Dale:
You know, here’s what I I love the fact that I’m a man. I love and embrace the concept of an appreciated and so grateful for what I get to experience as a male in this world. We’re not criticizing or bashing. We’re just in some ways exposing, but we’re at least shedding light so that we can at least have the conversation. And, again, If you haven’t, Skip, here’s what I’m asking you is at least explore what if we just had a conversation, And that’s what this is going to be. These these, these episodes is a conversation about what does it mean to be a man.
Eric Deschamps:
Totally. And and and let’s face From the beginning, the show has been about living your best life, and it’s been about, in many ways, in order to do that, breaking free From limiting beliefs, mindsets, worldviews, right, stereotypes breaking free from other people’s expectations. Well, listen, it’s one thing to, live your own life and perhaps break free from your family’s expectations, but let’s talk about society’s expectations. And when we talk about, masculine stereotypes or archetypes that have kept us trapped. When we talk about toxic masculinity, it’s often made up of societal that have been shaped over time that really kind of define for us what masculinity ought to look like. Mindful masculinity, like Anything mindful means I’m paying attention, and I’m saying, is there a better way? Is this what I’m choosing, or am I just living according to the construct? Yeah. And what we wanna be encouraging folks, is to engage with us in this conversation
Rob Dale:
Yeah.
Eric Deschamps:
To to look at the constructs that perhaps are holding us back And and maybe embrace some better ones.
Rob Dale:
It’s interesting. It, there’s so many and and certainly the research supports this is that there are so many men right now feeling lost.
Eric Deschamps:
Oh, yeah.
Rob Dale:
They’re just they don’t know what to do. They don’t know how to get there. They don’t know you know? And it was interesting because one of the books that we’re both reading that, it just been absolutely, You know, very formative book, for us is is the book, For the Love of Men by Liz Plank. Yeah. And she She stares, some stats in there around she starts at one of the chapters, sharing the stats around the percentage of men who, when lost, won’t ask for directions. Right. It’s like 90% or whatever of men
Eric Deschamps:
Well, listen. Any woman listening to the show right now knows what it’s like when a man won’t ask for directions. We will drive around for an hour and a half before we would ever pull over and say, how can I get to the yeah?
Rob Dale:
And she makes The argument that it’s we even see it in in business, and we certainly know this, is that business, that, you know, a a male manager is afraid to ask for help or afraid to ask for support because it makes them look weak.
Eric Deschamps:
Right.
Rob Dale:
And the they’re you’re supposed to know everything. And so they they All of society keeps us from asking the questions, and yet here’s what we know. And and so she has a great quote in there. She says, you know, if if, if men can ask for directions, How the hell are they supposed to ask ask for directions and and how to be a man? Right. How to figure out this stuff? And so That’s part of what we wanna do is we wanna just explore, what does it look like and how do we get there. And, you know, During the Me Too movement, I remember hearing I people would have this conversation, but I saw it online. So many men going, Well, what are we allowed to do anymore? And why I don’t I don’t know. What can I say? What can I right? There was so much lostness.
Rob Dale:
Yeah. Maybe we can create a bit of a map for people.
Eric Deschamps:
Exactly. And that’s the that’s what we hope, and we hope you’re gonna engage with us. We hope we we encourage you, during the course of these conversations to Send in your questions, to send in your comments. You can follow us on all the socials. That’s all on our website at livingrichly.me. We really want to engage in a conversation, and we actually, we do have a great Facebook group Yeah. Called the Living Richly Nation on Facebook. It’s a private group.
Eric Deschamps:
Nearly 300 members as of as of, about this timing here. And, we asked them in preparation for this show. You posted in there and, ask them, you know, what toxic masculinity means to them. And several of them It was gave us some incredible feedback.
Rob Dale:
It was so you know, some of the one word answers, mansplaining, was was something that somebody said bullying Yeah. Was another one. Male chauvinism was another one or someone who’s unable to Stand in their own truth.
Eric Deschamps:
Oh, that’s a good one. Someone unable to stand in their own truth. We you talk about we just said a moment well, you just said a we just talked about a moment ago How so many of us are living our lives according to somebody else’s script. Well, toxic masculinity, or any construct, Not of our own making is not standing in our own truth. So absolutely love, that definition. Sophie Peris Yang, who was on the show just a few weeks ago, phenomenal leader
Rob Dale:
Yes.
Eric Deschamps:
And such a such an incredible, incredible person. She wrote, a little bit of a longer definition. She said Overall aggressiveness in many areas of their life, low emotional intelligence, inability to express feelings, Seize them as a weakness rather than a strength, and empathize, connect with people who are different than them. I thought, wow. Thank you, Sophie. That’s an amazing, definition. I know she’s had to deal with that a lot in, 25 years of health care. Right? She’s had to deal with that.
Rob Dale:
Leadership role probably with all kinds of men around And and yeah. Absolutely. And her her episode is so great, and she talks a little bit about some of that. Doug, another, member of the Facebook group he was talking about. I love this This line, it’s when men seek, require, or take from a woman or believe that something is due, from a woman simply because he is a man. Yeah. Whoo. There’s a simple definite
Eric Deschamps:
Really good. Really good. He added misogyny, patriarchy, and Chauvinism and machoism. Right?
Rob Dale:
All the
Eric Deschamps:
key words. All that stuff. And then finally, Tammy said a set of social guidelines of how men should act and the negative consequences it brings. So we we thank, the Living Real Estate Nation for their input, and and I think that really helps us understand a little bit more what we mean by toxic masculinity.
Rob Dale:
You know, and I I can I I know that when we first started exploring this, I was like, I’m good? You know? I Right. I’m I’m, I’m good with this. And I and and and while I do believe that I have certainly, I I I have an appreciative. We don’t know what we don’t know.
Eric Deschamps:
Right. We do know.
Rob Dale:
Gets pointed out. And and it was interesting. It was, another quote from Liz where she talks about, if you you’re you’re having conversation with someone, they say, I I don’t struggle with toxic masculinity at all. Like, I’m really comfortable in my manhood. Just hand them a bouquet of flowers. It’s okay. Just Just stand here and hold this for a little while and see how awkward most men get. Right? The notion of flowers.
Eric Deschamps:
I I still remember holding my my my significant other’s purse, know? And that there there was years where that made me
Rob Dale:
feel very uncomfortable. Funny. I just saw it, and I laughed because I saw it on on Twitter the other day or an x or whatever you’re calling it today. Was this it was this this guy is genius, and it was his wife hands, his purse as she goes into the store. And he immediately finds this A garbage bag, and he does this big kinda thing and puts it in the bag. Now he’s just holding a bag.
Eric Deschamps:
He’s holding a bag. Right?
Rob Dale:
He’d rather hold a garbage bag than to be seen holding his wife’s purse. Oh my god. God forbid that you would do that.
Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. There are some traditional language phrases. Right? Because, whenever construct within whenever a a a a philosophy or a way of thinking takes hold in a society, it comes associated with language. There’s There are there are phrases and sentences and descriptors that become part of the common vernacular, and and there’s a few of them here that really stand out, for us as we were preparing for the show. And the first one is, well, you know, boys will be boys.
Rob Dale:
Boys will be boys.
Eric Deschamps:
Boys will be boys. And it’s set in almost like a A passive resignation of giving them license to to to behave in all kinds of ways that are inappropriate. It it it allows for sexist behavior and chauvinistic behavior and arrogant behavior and aggressive behavior, And it’s just waved off as well. Boys will be boys.
Rob Dale:
And and I remember, sharing. I sent you a, Screen grab of a quote, and and I don’t remember who says this quote, but I just think it’s absolute brilliant around this. It says, why don’t we say boys will be boys when a when a Man wins the Nobel Peace Prize. Right? It’s like, we only say boys will be boys when they do something stupid. They misbehave. Yeah. Yeah. What yeah.
Rob Dale:
When they’re doing something horrible. But, again, it’s an excuse to relieve them from any ownership of whatever they’re doing. Oh, well, boys will be boys. We can’t expect them to be better than that. Yeah. Well, talk about weakness
Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.
Rob Dale:
Yeah. In that notion. Another, one that you hear oftentimes is real men don’t cry.
Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Rob Dale:
And and and we see it all the time. Certainly, you know, when with guys is you’ll see, if you know, even fathers with their sons, if son starts getting he starts crying. Oh, no. No. Don’t cry. Come on. Come on. Tough.
Rob Dale:
You know? And here, you have you have a cookie or here’s do something to key anything to keep them from showing emotion. We’re so terrified of showing that emotion.
Eric Deschamps:
Well, it’s it’s perceived truly perceived as a weakness by many. And yet, one of the things that really makes me passionate about this this subject matter Is, and and, we’ve talked about this not long ago, but the my definition of living richly part of my definition of living richly is having full access to all of the resources of mind, heart, spirit, and body. And I think a lot of men, can only access a couple of those. They know how to access their mind. They do that on a pretty regular basis, and they and and we are fixers, and we are the tacticians, and, we we we think a lot, but our ability to feel, our heart is is is very Compartmentalized. That was a tough word for me today. Big word. But it it’s broken into compartments.
Eric Deschamps:
Folks, been a long day. I just gotta go with the word that’s easier to say. Alright? But let’s face it. A lot of guys are emotionally cut off. Like, they they they they don’t know how to feel. They’re uncomfortable with their feelings. And what a horrible thing to think that this gift that we’ve been given to be able to enjoy life fully, and we somehow only can access Probably rage, anger, and and joy to a degree when we joke around with each other, but we’re missing so much of that, of that expression. I
Rob Dale:
remember as I’ve gotten older. And, that was cute. Boy, you are tired today. That was like
Eric Deschamps:
Ed, you are. Listen. Listen. Anything over 3 syllables, and I think I’m gonna use an alternative definition.
Rob Dale:
Steve, you appreciate it. Yeah. There we go. When Steve and I, as we got older as I got older, one of the things that has, happened is I now cry during commercials. And, it’s it’s an old yeah. It’s a it’s an old it’s an old guys thing. It’s, we It’s old guys.
Eric Deschamps:
We’re here talking about Old masculinity.
Rob Dale:
Old masculinity as you you know. But but there are times a commercial comes on, and I remember the first kinda couple times I was like, What the hell is this? I’m I’m leaking. Oh, right. I’m I’m
Eric Deschamps:
leaking from my my Wendy, Wendy, there’s something wrong with my eye.
Rob Dale:
My eyes are broken. They’re leaking. And but there I but I can remember the 1st couple of times I’d be watching out to Martin’s commercial, and it’s a story or whatever. And And I get a little I find myself choked up. Be and I right away, what’s wrong with me? I must be having a breakdown because I’m getting emotional over commercials. But it’s It’s just the not even allowing ourselves to be okay with just in being touched in a moment.
Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Yeah. And this leads to and we’ll get into emotional stuckness a little bit more later on, and we’re gonna be obviously exploring that one because it’s a major, major issue for men.
Rob Dale:
Another one that we certainly see a lot is the the alpha male.
Eric Deschamps:
Right.
Rob Dale:
The man’s man. I’m the man’s man. Look at that guy. He’s a man’s man. He goes 6 weeks with it.
Eric Deschamps:
What the hell does that mean?
Rob Dale:
The man’s man. Right. You know, it’s right? It’s the it’s The guy who
Eric Deschamps:
goes jacked.
Rob Dale:
He’s jacked. He’s the he’s he probably goes down and cuts down trees to make, you know, to make picks.
Eric Deschamps:
Why’d You picked trees. You cut down the trees. I’m picking up. The alphaca are lumberjacked like this? Well, he is.
Rob Dale:
Paul Bunyan.
Eric Deschamps:
Help us out here.
Rob Dale:
He’s Paul Paul Bunyan is now Okay.
Eric Deschamps:
Like, okay. I’d fall bunyan. And and what was his ox’s name, Blue? Blue. Blue.
Rob Dale:
Yeah. The ox wrestle he he wrestles bears and, You know? And he just, yeah. It runs into buildings and saves people. Yeah. It just we have this notion of the man’s man is this It’s tough, strong, silent type, strong. Right? All of the things that we’ve, you know, we’ve addressed some of those even, but we See their concept of, oh, that’s a man’s man. In other words, that’s who I wanna idolize.
Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. At
Rob Dale:
least might be fucked right up. Right. But we see it that way.
Eric Deschamps:
What’s another one? Well, be a man about it is another version or man up. Right? You need to man up, which is implying, that you’re you’re being weak or you’re you’re you’re not being strong enough. And, I I remember hearing not long on a podcast where and I’m gonna forget the guy’s name, but He said, how about how about we change that to human up? Mhmm. It’s not about manning up. Manning up implies, again, you’re not being enough. You’re not showing up In that alpha male way, that dominant, aggressive, strong way, we need to redefine strength. I love how Don Lachance recently helped us, talk about or discover that, often it’s not so much about strength, but about courage. Those are 2 very, different things.
Eric Deschamps:
But man up really is, it’s it’s degrading. It’s it’s it’s condescending. But human up means rise up to your full potential, whatever that looks like for you. Right? So that’s an important one.
Rob Dale:
This next one, we struggled with whether we’re gonna how we were gonna say it, whether we’re gonna Say the phrase or not, we even reached out to, you know, Kate Wendy to say, what do you think? Yeah. How is this gonna be? We talked to to Steve about it, and and we’ve and then we thought, no. This is this is legitimately we recognize
Eric Deschamps:
talk about Right. Don’t be a sissy. Don’t be a pussy. Right. Because we don’t use sissy. That that’s the software version.
Rob Dale:
Yeah. Guys, that’s what they say.
Eric Deschamps:
That’s what they say to
Rob Dale:
each other. Locker room. You say it at school and high school. I mean, I the the number of times I say it with my guy you know, buddy buddies at times, but it’s a concept that we say and which is ironic and, like, bizarre.
Eric Deschamps:
Like, can we talk about
Rob Dale:
this for a minute.
Eric Deschamps:
Like, seriously, when you think about, that statement, again, it’s it’s it’s condescending. It’s very den degradating and and especially to women, but it’s it’s implying that a man is weak, that a man is a is a is a girl. Right? It has that implication. It is just so condescending and and so arrogant. And yet when you when you think of that part of the human anatomy, it is one it is the one of the strongest, Life giving Literally. Literally. Life giving. Birthing, giving life into the world.
Eric Deschamps:
Right? A lady by the name of Cleona Elliott said, telling someone they’re weak is not very constructive in the 1st place. But based on anatomical design, It would be more fitting to call someone a testicle or a ball instead of a pussy. Because you want like, kick a guy in the nuts. Right? And he bends over, and he’s done. Right? Yeah. But it’s just so funny how we have made that now a thing of weakness when actually it’s it’s a sign of strength and life.
Rob Dale:
One of my favorite clips, and I shared it with you in preparation for today’s show, was 1 is a is our little comedy clip by Trevor Noah Trevor Noah, in which he talks about that the the phrase, don’t be a pussy. And he talks about how, You know, that’s the strong he’s such you know, the the strength, all the what we just said about it. And then he says, then you take the penis. You just gotta hit it wrong and it breaks. Right? Like, it it just it’s like and that’s the whole notion of what’s here. And it’s but it’s, again, it’s because really what they’re saying isn’t about the the part of the body. They are literally just saying, don’t be like a woman.
Eric Deschamps:
Don’t be a girl.
Rob Dale:
Don’t be a girl. Yeah.
Eric Deschamps:
It’s it’s so yeah. It’s so wrong. Men don’t show weakness. Right? That’s very similar to the emotion piece, But the the weakness side is this is why often men, don’t ask for help or they, suffer in silence. We’re gonna give some stats in a little bit about the the results of that, but men don’t show weakness. Don’t let them see you sweat. I mean, that’s probably one both men and women can relate to. But for men, there is the, again, the the alpha male thing plays in there.
Eric Deschamps:
If I admit that I need help, then I’m at the back of the pack. I’m weak. I’m gonna be looked down upon. And so men will do everything to hide men struggle with vulnerability far more, than women do. And yet both you and I, when men are away from the pack and you get them 1 on 1, how many times have you I know for me, this happens regularly, But how often has a man, a strong man, sitting across from us on a Zoom call or across a a table somewhere, broken into tears over what they’re struggling with and what they’re facing and and has become vulnerable in that moment only to pull it back immediately because they’re so afraid, that they’re demonstrating weakness, and yet vulnerability is actually a superpower.
Rob Dale:
Let me tell you a story around that that I think is pretty powerful. I, of course, in my former life was the pastor, pastor at a biker’s church. I was very much involved in and certainly worked around some of the, the the The strongest, toughest, roughest, biker, literally outlaw bikers. Some of the, you know, some of the Classic what we think of whether it’s Hells Angels or all of them. I had opportunity would spend time in the clubhouses You
Eric Deschamps:
lived on edge, buddy.
Rob Dale:
Well, I really did get a chance to spend some time with people we would think of. Now there’s a man. There’s a tough guy, right, and all this kind of stuff. And I remember having some sitting with a guy who a Canadian guy who had been down in the States. The the the club that he was a part of in the States had sent him to Ottawa because there was a lot of heat on him down where he was from, and he came to Ottawa. And he was coming in to talk to me. He shared some horrendous things that he said. I won’t get into share sharing any of them publicly, but shared some things that were horrendous what he did to some people And, and breaking down in tears, and he said, this is the only place where he he he wanted to get out of that world.
Rob Dale:
But he’s he was he would share how These stories insist say I can’t I can’t even share that I’m struggling or that I that I that I he talked about the nightmares, waking up Screaming in the middle of the night, thinking of the people that he’s harmed, all of these emotional things and had zero outlet for it. And he was trying to figure that out. And we really spent I spent much so much time with this individual helping them just kind of start to get free from Not and and I think I’ve lost touch with him to this day too, but I I know that he was on the path to finding that freedom. Yeah. They don’t know how. That’s an extreme version, But it’s true of all of it. We don’t know how to express, that emotion. And yet when we’re 1 on 1 and we’re given permission in safe place, it comes out it comes out we don’t even what am I doing? How am I doing?
Eric Deschamps:
And all it takes is for it it all it takes is for 1 to go first. All it takes is for 1 man to show vulnerability, to to to be willing to show up authentically, to admit that, they don’t have it all together. And, again, I I hope that through these conversations, even if we can only do this for a handful of people, it’ll be worth the effort. A handful of men that are listening, I hope it’s gonna reach a far more, A much bigger audience, but even if it’s just for a few, that that that, weakness, asking for help, that is not weakness. That is actually Strength, it takes courage to break free from all of those bullshit ideologies, be yourself, and experience life head on.
Rob Dale:
You know, another one another one is the the suck it up. Right? Rub some dirt on it. Rub some dirt on it. I’m a big I love love watching, hockey. I love watching football, and you see it all the time. In football, one of the perfect examples well, in both sports, One of the examples we saw for years years years, you would have players who would get hit, and and be concussed. But because there wasn’t a physical arm that was in 6 different loc right? Because it wasn’t a hidden injury, that coaches, everyone would be like, Hey. Suck it up.
Rob Dale:
Get back out on the field. Yeah. And the damage they did to themselves long term Yeah. Because they were sucking it up as long
Eric Deschamps:
this is long before they understood it. Way before they
Rob Dale:
understood it. But to this day, you have players who continue to In fact, both those sports, I don’t know if they do the well or not, people will debate that. But both those sports, a lot of sports now, They need to put in the into the into the game the the the boundaries to protect the players because the players themselves won’t admit the injury.
Eric Deschamps:
Right.
Rob Dale:
And so they have to do that through all kinds of different measures. It’s such a bad.
Eric Deschamps:
I think another one is, don’t be such a girl. Don’t be so again, think of just how horrible that statement is implying that, every female on the planet is somehow deficient and weak. And the vast majority of the women that I know are incredibly strong and courageous and capable of far more than I think a lot of men will give them credit for, but don’t be such a girl. I think it’s almost a year ago to the day, it was February in 2022, that Tiger Woods handed Justin Thomas his they were in a tournament together, a major championship golf tournament, and he handed him a tampon after outdriving him on the 9th hole. And this caused Such Mhmm. A ruckus that, Tiger Woods had to apologize, and he he was like, listen. It was just a joke between
Rob Dale:
2 friends.
Eric Deschamps:
Boys. Just boys being boys, and I’m sorry it got misunderstood and all of it. And it was Alex McDaniel who is the managing editor of USA Today’s For the Win. He tweeted after that took place. He said, if Tiger spent 3 months a year bleeding and coping with period pain, they’d make a whole ass documentary about how champions overcome insurmountable obstacles. I thought, like
Rob Dale:
Oh my god.
Eric Deschamps:
Again, it’s It’s it’s this notion. These are all phrases that that speak to this toxic masculinity that we’re trying to we’re trying to unpack.
Rob Dale:
Another one that we hear oftentimes is fight like a man. Right. What’s happening? Well and when you if if you study history at all, The greatest warriors, the greatest generals that are admired and, you know, are the ones who are phenomenal tacticians.
Eric Deschamps:
Right.
Rob Dale:
Right? They they use their brains
Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.
Rob Dale:
To fight the war. Yeah. They came up with creative and unique ways to do battle. Yeah. It’s it’s a but that’s not what we’re talking about here. What we’re talking about when we say fight like a and and, again, I you know, back in the early days when I I was younger and I was living in Overbrook and we were doing all this kind of stuff, there was always we I mean, I’ve number of times we got into fights, I was not a big fighter. I was somebody who always just believe this is stupid. There’s gotta be a better way to solve this dispute or this no.
Rob Dale:
Sometimes you had no choice and We at the time, you believe they had no choice, and, yes, fists would swing. Yeah. But the idea that that was the that people, won as a result of that, Yet, it’s such a prevailing, concept.
Eric Deschamps:
We don’t have time to explore it fully on today’s show, but Elizabeth less Lesser in her book Cassandra Speaks Devotes an entire chapter to how obsessed we are in our culture with warlike analogies. Yeah. It’s we’re going to battle. We’re going to like, outside of actual warfare where we use wartime analogies to describe so many things, that all it does is encourage that aggression and that violence Yeah. And that kind of behavior. I I and and I think, Rob, we’re we’re so, aware that as soon as you start talking about this subject, it’s going against the tide. It’s going against the flow. And these I know these conversations are happening, not just on this Podcasts are happening all over the world right now, but there is a blowback.
Eric Deschamps:
As soon as people start to talk about a more mindful masculinity moving away from some of, many of these old archaic dinosaur like ways of thinking that are keeping men trapped, and men are actually hurting. It’s, you wanna talk about a a pandemic. This is a silent pandemic
Rob Dale:
Yes.
Eric Deschamps:
That is literally killing killing, all around the world At leading to shorter lifespans
Rob Dale:
No. The suicide rates.
Eric Deschamps:
Mental health issues, leading to deep relationship issues, aloneness. And we’re gonna talk about some of that impact. But as soon as you start to talk about it, the institution you talked about earlier, like, you you you before we started this, these conversations, like, I think I’m good. Yeah. I think I’m good. And then I know for me, same. But the more I read about it, all of a sudden, I start to get more educated. I start to realize, wait a second.
Eric Deschamps:
I still have some stuff I need to to shed here. There’s some things I need to let go of. And it’s it’s a concept in power dynamics that when you’ve had the power, And let’s face it. White males have had the power for a very long time. The longer you’ve had power, the the the harder it is for you to imagine not having it. So when someone starts to talk about the impact of toxic masculinity, well, some men just go, what are you talking about? What impact? We we can’t even see it. And in some cases, it’s not just sort of a, this this this response of I don’t know what you’re talking about. There’s even blowback.
Eric Deschamps:
Right? And Liz Plank refers to the blowback as the masculinity Moral panic. Yes. Right? Because that that that group of people you think of, people like Jordan Peterson, whose whose fame has, just taken over, and I think he has stepped into that void we were talking about earlier of men saying, hey. I don’t know what it really means to be a man anymore. And In many ways, he steps in as a very articulate intelligent person and reinforces all of the old constructions. Feelings. Right? And he Conquer. Oh my god.
Eric Deschamps:
Like, it’s he’s reinforcing, and it’s being it’s like, people are eating it up. We’re seeing young men eat up his message and just devour it and and and prescribe to it. And he’s basically saying and others like him are saying that masculinity is under attack.
Rob Dale:
Yeah.
Eric Deschamps:
And I would say on this show, it’s not masculinity that’s under attack. It’s toxic masculinity Yes. That is currently being challenged more and more, and it doesn’t like the scrutiny.
Rob Dale:
And and I do think that there is you know, like any of these conversations, here’s what happens. Sometimes the pendulum swings too far the other way. And and what again, what I love about how we’re trying to approach this is we’re saying, can we not at least have a conversation?
Eric Deschamps:
Talk.
Rob Dale:
So we’re exactly. Let’s talk. I I I’m not, again, I and what I appreciate, we’ve we’ve mentioned Liz’s book a number of times. We’ve had I’d love to have her on the show. She Liz. Yeah. Wonderful. That would
Eric Deschamps:
be great. I I’d love to have Elizabeth Lesser if you’re listening.
Rob Dale:
Right? There’s some great people that we’d love to have on the show. What I Cheah, in in her book, in for the love of men is, you know, she makes it clear. She goes, I I love men.
Eric Deschamps:
Right.
Rob Dale:
It’s the for the love of men. The book
Eric Deschamps:
is That’s the name.
Rob Dale:
I I I love Man, this is not a this is not a a man hater.
Eric Deschamps:
Oh, god.
Rob Dale:
And I and I do but I do think there is that extreme out there, just as there is extreme the other way, but I think we are more aligned than we realize Yeah. If we would just be open to have a conversation. Here’s where I’ve learned from myself is why am I so threatened by at least saying, Maybe I should listen and hear what someone has to say, and then I can determine, am I guilty of that? Am I am I blind to something, or am I good? Yeah. What if if I really do believe that I am pretty good as a man and I don’t demonstrate a lot of this toxic toxicity, that we’re talking about here, then I should be comfortable with Shedding a light.
Eric Deschamps:
Totally. Totally.
Rob Dale:
And I think the reason why there’s such a pushback from a lot of of of Man, like a Jordan Peterson, like a Joe Rogan, like some of these other people who are just absolutely pushing back, there’s a fear.
Eric Deschamps:
It’s a fear loss of control. Loss
Rob Dale:
of control.
Eric Deschamps:
When you when you when you’ve been the prevailing power
Rob Dale:
You’re hanging on and Fighting for
Eric Deschamps:
Whether you recognize or not that you’ve been the prevailing power, when when that begins to shift, of course, it’s gonna cause tremendous anxiety, Angst, fear, and blowback. And and I, like you, I didn’t I post I post on LinkedIn a few days ago in preparation for the show and asked for for folks if they had questions or comments about toxic masculinity and seen in the workplace. And David, who’s a local, marketing professional here in the city, wrote back. He says, I see forms and levels of toxic masculinity every single day. I’m often called a social justice warrior or woke for calling it out or politely asking for some clarification to confirm what I am reading, hearing, or seeing. And most often, I get Tacked, being called all sorts of things like a weak, a snowflake, or worse. I’m okay with being attacked because I can take it even though I shouldn’t have to, Because it’s important to point it out. That’s how we shine a light on it, and ugly things Uh-huh.
Eric Deschamps:
Hate the light. And I responded back to him and thanked him for his courageous post. But let let’s so the reality is there is gonna be blowback. We get that not everyone’s gonna be comfortable with this conversation. But to your point earlier, This this is not, this is about this is an emotional appeal to our brothers, The father is listening, the grandfathers, right, the sons that are listening to engage in a conversation that could radically shift How they experience life in its richest form and how they can become life givers themselves, to the world around them. So Please hang in with us. Have the conversation.
Rob Dale:
When you show up fully in your manhood, when you show up fully in your masculinity, there is a freedom. Oh. There is such a freedom to come and to be, again, to be fully present in whatever that is, to sit and, You know, to play with your daughters or to be that listening, compassionate ear to your wife Or wherever that might be with your colleagues, with your friends to be able to connect to people when you finally embrace All of what it is to be a man in its healthy, mindful way, you are all of a sudden the you it just opens up a whole new world of experience for you.
Eric Deschamps:
Absolutely. I mean, do you want to live if if the 4 elements which have been with us for 1000 of years In so many different cultures, you gotta look at universal truth, and this is truth that you find Outside of 1 any any given group,
Rob Dale:
it
Eric Deschamps:
sort of transcends them all. And the 4 elements just keeps showing up all the time. And, again, they are fire, which speaks of heart, Water which speaks of mind, wind which speaks of spirit, earth which speaks of body. Men, do you really want to live 2 out of the 4. Right. Right? Do you wanna live as half a man? You wanna talk about being a real man? It’s about experiencing the the the power of the the full dimension of what it means, to be human. So we’re not encouraging anyone here to man up, But we are inviting you to human up. Let’s talk for a few minutes before we wrap up the show today about some of the impacts.
Eric Deschamps:
We’ve talked about Some of the definitions of toxic masculinity. We’ve we’ve talked about some of the language that’s common, when it shows up, but let’s talk about some of the impact. One of them, and we’ve already referred to it, is that men are, like, on emotional lockdown. So many men are are are it’s like they’re wearing an emotional straight jacket, kid. And they are incapable, unwilling, afraid to, unsure of what it means to embrace their emotional life.
Rob Dale:
It abs yeah. Absolutely. We don’t know how to express it. We don’t know how to say. We don’t know, we get Afraid of emotion. We get tongue tied when we’re trying. Right? How do you feel about that? I don’t know.
Eric Deschamps:
Right.
Rob Dale:
I feel good.
Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Right.
Rob Dale:
I feel sad. Right. I feel mad. It’s like it’s Right?
Eric Deschamps:
It’s like it’s
Rob Dale:
like it’s like
Eric Deschamps:
we’re emotionally illiterate in many ways. For sure.
Rob Dale:
It it and and And and as a result, it causes stress. You know, the the the levels of stress and the and the people dealing with mental health issues, All because of the bottled up emotions. We’re not able to let those you know, we talk often in the show about, allowing your emotions to move through you.
Eric Deschamps:
Right.
Rob Dale:
We’re we’re holding it all in because we don’t know how, and it’s gotta go somewhere.
Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.
Rob Dale:
And so then it’s expressed in in inappropriate ways. Yeah. You know, for me, I would was a guy. Now I didn’t do this often. You could count on almost 1 hand how many times, but I would just it would build up, build up, and then boom. And then I would Mode release, steam release, and then back to normal and go back about my daily kinda, like, as if nothing happened until the next blowup. But That’s one of the, certainly, one of the struggles with that emotional
Eric Deschamps:
100%. It’s it’s it’s like a, there’s a fear of showing their soft side. There’s a fear of being vulnerable. There’s a fear, of of just being honest about how what you’re expressing and and getting present to actually what you’re feeling in that moment. Most guys, like I said, are are we’re we’re emotionally illiterate, and we need to work at expanding, our range of options, other than rage and anger. And we’re not gonna get into that today, but rage and anger are are certainly a problem, among men. And speaking of rage and anger. Yeah.
Eric Deschamps:
Toxic masculinity tends to, really lead to increased aggression. It tends to encourage it and even violence.
Rob Dale:
Right? And you can’t deny the stats.
Eric Deschamps:
Right.
Rob Dale:
Right? The statistics tell us that almost all, violence, certainly gun violence in the states, We, we certainly don’t see that’s to the same degree here in Canada, but even the any of the YouTrack, any of the gun violence that happened in Canada, Almost all of the mass shootings are done by young white male.
Eric Deschamps:
Right.
Rob Dale:
Yeah. Is that is it and to the point that if it’s It’s a female that is involved in a mass, shooting or or whatever the case might be. It’s I can’t remember the last
Eric Deschamps:
time I I saw that.
Rob Dale:
I’m right. But it would be mass of news because it would be so unusual. We know the stereotype of who is doing this. It’s peep this aggression. We see it in the games we play. We see it in the language we use, all of that. But there’s this this intensity where, you know, we I was talking to someone the other day that was down in the states in one of the, States that has, you can carry, for a gun. And they’re like, Canadian.
Rob Dale:
They’re like, They might kinda yell at a guy for a bit of road rage here in Canada, but they would never do it there because it’s like, you have no idea if that guy’s gonna pull out a gun on you. And right? There’s This notion of you know you have to be so careful because it’s just below the surface, this rage and anger.
Eric Deschamps:
Right. Well and, well, any any Version of masculinity that glorifies aggression and dominance is going to lead to domestic abuse, sexual violence, bullying, other forms of aggression. And and to your point earlier, the stats speak for themselves on that front. You can’t argue. Mental health issues.
Rob Dale:
Yeah.
Eric Deschamps:
I mean, let’s face it. The the pressure to conform to these Unrealistic standards of strength and stoicism and, right, being a man can contribute and are is contributing to real mental health issues among them. And and because men are afraid to show weakness and afraid to ask for help or directions, They tend to suffer alone. They tend to to not reach out for help. And it it Liz Planks says in the for the love of men, mix an inability to cope with emotions with a reluctance to seek help, and you have the perfect and lethal mix for a mental health crisis.
Rob Dale:
Yeah. I, I was talking to a a client the other day, and here’s what I appreciate. So I’m very open, and and we talk about this often years. Right? We share our story. We go first
Eric Deschamps:
Right.
Rob Dale:
And in hopes that others will then do that. And I share very openly with clients about, that I that I go that I have a therapist, That I, you know, work through counseling, and I and I’m always processing that. All almost all my clients know that at some form or another, I’m very comfortable in sharing it. And I had a client, a guy who you would think of as a man’s man by those definitions, right, in in construction and all of this stuff. And him reaching out to me the other day, and I thought it was so beautiful that he he reached out and he said, I I think I’m ready. I think I need to speak to someone finally. I figured you were the safe person to ask, right, who I should, and I and I referred him to a I gave him a couple of suggestions, But then I sent him a note after I I sent him the suggestions, and I sent him another note, and I said, hey. I I wanna know how proud I am of you, for you choosing To look after yourself first.
Eric Deschamps:
Right.
Rob Dale:
Right. And kudos to you. Thumbs up for me. Right.
Eric Deschamps:
And it it that’s that’s what it’s gonna take, Rob. It’s gonna take It’s gonna take the courageous ones to go first, to model a new way, a a more mindful masculinity, And then to celebrate it when they see it in others and create space for men to step out of the darkness into the light and free themselves from, really, these shackles, of of the conditioning and the socialization that that has been part of our culture for centuries. Right? We talk about mental health issues in terms of the impact. Well, there’s also physical health issues.
Rob Dale:
Physical
Eric Deschamps:
health. Because, again, because men are less likely to to ask for help. They don’t go to their doctor. They don’t ask, right, if there’s something’s wrong, they tend to, again, suffer in silence. And so, we don’t have all the stats here, but there that we will put some on the show notes about just how more men die of certain conditions that are completely avoidable if they would just ask for help. But this notion of asking for help is weakness is impacting men mentally. It’s impacting them physically. It’s impacting them emotionally.
Rob Dale:
It it really is, and it it is it’s sad that you think about the fact that’s that, you know, that you have men literally dying Because they are afraid to be seen as weak. Yeah. It’s crazy. Literally dying.
Eric Deschamps:
But that’s, again, that’s the power of a mindset or a a worldview. Let’s not forget a super important one. You’re right. Toxic masculinity is what is behind and what perpetuates, gender inequality, sexism, toxicity in the workplace. Right? Women have suffered, at the hands of toxic masculinity pretty much since the beginning of time. Yeah. And it was Elizabeth Lesser in her book. And I challenge anyone invite anyone who’s wanting to do more mindful research on this to read her book Cassandra Speaks.
Eric Deschamps:
The whole theory of the book is that I wonder she she talks about how in history, even in history, outside of this That history was usually written by the winners.
Rob Dale:
Yes.
Eric Deschamps:
And the winners never typically wrote about themselves in a way that was unfavorable. So it’s sometimes especially ancient history, you wonder how much of that can I trust? It was written written by the people who won.
Rob Dale:
Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. It was written the losers didn’t get a say. But guess who did most of the writing? It was all men.
Rob Dale:
Yeah.
Eric Deschamps:
And her mostly. And and she says, I wonder how the narrative, how society would be different today If more women had been involved in the shaping of that history, if our values, our our beliefs, and our behaviors would be radically different, I believe they would.
Rob Dale:
It it really is amazing. You know, so Something that happened recently here in, that we see in kind of northeast America and and in Canada is there was a professional women’s hockey league was was launched. And they’re they’re really kinda doing this. And and and Steve, our producer, could probably speak to this even more than me because he he he’s very much Known in in local circles in the sports community. He was on sports radio for a lot of years, and he’s certainly still a sports expert, has his own podcast around sports. The number of Guys who were just almost, like, aggressively wishing and wanting the women’s hockey league to fail, were tweeting out, of course, all these keyboard warriors, but would be reaching out, communicating stuff, saying all this, you know, kind of, that’s not real hockey and All because again, it’s like, why are you so afraid of women’s hockey succeeding? I went to a game, and I’ll say this. I’ve been to we have had a box at the Sends, for a lot of years, I don’t know the last time I’ve seen a better hockey game played than that women’s game. It was ridiculously good.
Rob Dale:
Yeah. But that’s the reality of of what we have. This notion of this they’re not the they can’t women can’t play sports. Right? Right. There’s concept, and it’s It’s out of this fear, this but you’re absolutely right. That inequality is there.
Eric Deschamps:
The last 1 we’re gonna cover for today just because, we’re it’s a timing. We’re about out of time for today, but, let’s talk about the impact of of that toxic masculinity on relationships. When you think that the expectation for men is to always be in control, to be emotionally detached, and the sole provider. Right? Though and we’re gonna talk about some of the archetypes. One of the types is the provider, and that’s problematic. But those, those factors lead to tremendous strain in relationships. It’s not working, leading issues in communication and intimacy.
Rob Dale:
I mean, let’s let’s look
Eric Deschamps:
look at this. The CDC states that the rate of suicide among men in the US is 4 times that of women. That was in 2022. And in Canada, suicide rates among men are 3 times that of women. And the crisis is especially bad among older men who find themselves alone, because that’s happening more and more. More and more men as they age Yeah. Have fewer and fewer people in their lives. As a matter of fact, unmarried men aged 40 to 60 are more likely to die by suicide compared to married men of the same age.
Eric Deschamps:
And part of the reason more and more men are finding themselves alone is because their inability to get in touch with their heart. Yeah. Heart is at the heart of relationships. I see. Yeah. If you wanna improve your relationships, you’re gonna have to, right, start to do some work and get in touch with
Rob Dale:
your I have no doubt that a lot of the our our female audience would would be raising their hand, and they would be saying, My number one wish is that my husband, my partner would be more emotionally connected.
Eric Deschamps:
Right. Right.
Rob Dale:
Right. It is a cry. Totally.
Eric Deschamps:
And, again, to our brothers, the sons, the uncles, the grandfathers listening, hope that you will continue to join us in these conversations today. It was an attempt to just, kind of expose some of the The toxicity of the masculinity that so many people have embraced, and and I wanna remind you as we wrap up of Our goal in the these series of conversations is to create that conversation about what it means to really be a man, and to invite you to consider a more mindful, masculinity. And so we look forward to you joining us on the next episode. Listen. As always, we are sharing is caring. We invite you to, we’d love for you to like, share, subscribe to the show, but share this out. We believe that this is gonna help men perhaps begin to rethink their approach. So we really encourage you to share out, get the word out.
Eric Deschamps:
Visit our website At, living richly dot me where you will find the link right on the homepage there where you can sign up for the Living Richly Nation. That’s our private Facebook group, it’s been interesting that we’ve seen, we have a lot of men in the group, but not a lot of the men are sharing. They’re silent. They’re they’re pretty silent. We hope to see that shift, but, it’s a safe place to explore some of these topics even if you’re not ready to have a conversation to just listen in and observe. It’s a safe place for you to be. Folks, again, thank you for listening in. We’re so glad you’re joining us week to week.
Eric Deschamps:
We so appreciate your support, And we look forward to next time. Until then, get out there and live your best life.
.