I Walk Alone: The Lonely Truth Behind the Lone Wolf

The Lone Wolf

Eric Deschamps:
I was shocked when I did the research on this. Yeah. That loneliness and isolation among men, the lonely wolf, is a real problem. It’s it’s a growing epidemic.

Rob Dale:
We are not focused in here on toxic masculinity. Right. Right. Right? We are focused in on what we are calling mindful masculinity. To stand strong when you

Eric Deschamps:
need to stand strong, but understand lonely wolf will not serve you well.

Rob Dale:
What we are trying to do through the conversation around mindful masculinity is to remove the shame.

Eric Deschamps:
Hi, and welcome to the Living Richly podcast. We’re so glad that you’ve joined us again this week. Rob and I are continuing on our series on being a real man moving from toxic to mindful masculinity. And, Rob, we’ve just recorded. This is just our 2nd show in this series. And after the first one, it was interesting. We got some really, cool feedback. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
And we got some blowback. Why don’t you talk to us about some of the feedback?

Rob Dale:
Yeah. It was it really was I mean, we were expecting. We thought, okay, this one’s gonna stir the pot a little bit in both a good way and and and perhaps in a not so good way. And and sure enough, we were right. We were able to get that. One of the things that we heard from one listener, and it was interesting to have, it was a a wife who was responding, thinking about, you know, how do I support my husband Right. As he’s trying to figure this out, and and what role do I play in being able to, encourage him and support him. And then being able to hear, the guy’s perspective as a female, her now being able to say, now I am able to look for this more and recognize when it’s showing up in in my workplace, as a result of what we’ve been sharing.

Rob Dale:
So that was great. That was awesome.

Eric Deschamps:
That’s so cool. We had one one follower on LinkedIn, who wrote the following. This is a bit of the blowback, but this was, great. We’ve invited people Loved it. To the conversation. We said, we’re not coming to this subject matter as subject matter experts. We’re coming here as 2 men on the journey, and, we’re trying to figure out what more mindful masculinity looks like, and we’ve invited people to join the conversation, which means there’s gonna be times people join that conversation we don’t see eye to eye. And I think it’s important that rather than just shut each other down immediately that we listen to each other.

Eric Deschamps:
But this is what he wrote. He wrote, I disagree. This was after the first show. I disagree with everything you guys are saying here. You’re contributing to making men weak, feeding into the blurring of lines of gender. There’s nothing wrong with saying man up. Men need to hear straight talk. He says, honestly, it was hard to get through that episode.

Eric Deschamps:
He’s referring to the last one we shot. Privilege is blinding, he says. Vulnerability is for women. This culture is soft, and it seems these ideologies have taken hold of you both with love from a toxic masculine. Right? And you know what? We we had a great back and forth. I engaged with him. Obviously, we don’t, embrace a lot of what he says here. I don’t I’m not of the same opinion.

Eric Deschamps:
Some of the statements I find hard to even read on air, but that’s his point of view. Our goal here again is to elevate the conversation about masculinity beyond the typical bro talk of booze, babes, business, and blood sports. We’re trying to just say there’s more for us to explore as men than those simple subjects.

Rob Dale:
One of the things that I so appreciated about this gentleman who posted that, who shared that with you was and he says it in what you just quoted is he found it difficult to get through the episode. That suggests he still listened to the whole episode. And that’s a statement. You know what? We are in a culture today where in any topic, no matter what it is, you pick a side and then you defend your or you defend your side and you refuse to even engage or listen to the other side. And you and I made a commitment when we decided to to to to dive into this topic Yeah. Was to have a conversation, and we’ve said that from the beginning. And I remember you reaching out to me before you responded back to this gentleman, and you even said, I want to be able to respond in such a way that it opens the door to a conversation. Your heart was so open to being able to instead of just shutting it down going, I disagree with you and, you know, and deleting his post.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. Yeah. Block, you know, instead, you you invited him in, and graciously, he did. He he responded back, and and there was a few comments again. We can disagree on some of this without, and still be able to have a conversation.

Eric Deschamps:
Without becoming disagreeable. Right? Like, we can Yep. Right.

Rob Dale:
And one of the other things that I love about we we talked about this in the last episode, episode, and and let’s let’s highlight it right now, is we are not focused in here on toxic masculinity.

Eric Deschamps:
Right. Right.

Rob Dale:
Right? We are focused in on what we are calling mindful masculinity, to be aware of how we show up as men, to be able to be open to different concepts and ideas. That’s what we’re talking about through this series.

Eric Deschamps:
A 100%. It’s it’s about rather than just being, like something that’s not mindful, we might say it’s on autopilot. Right? We’re, we’re, and and people do this in all aspects of life, but I think there’s a lot of men where we’ve been influenced by the culture, we’ve been influenced by mindsets and and and archetypes. Some of them we’re gonna look at today. We’re gonna look at the lone wolf archetype today and and talk about both its its positive contribution to masculinity and its dark side. And, actually, what I really appreciated about the exchange with this gentleman on LinkedIn is it helped me really get present to we wanna be careful as we have these conversations. It’s so easy to just point the finger at the things that are wrong that we forget what’s strong, and we wanna build on what’s strong, and we do want to expose some of the darker side of these mindsets and these ideologies around what it means to be a real man in today’s culture that are actually really harming men and keeping them trapped. So I thank him for kinda rattling our cage a little bit.

Eric Deschamps:
It helped us approach it and think about it in a whole different manner.

Rob Dale:
It just to open we are I love what you said. We’re not subject matter experts. You know, listen, hey, even even Steve, our producer. Steve? Suggested when we said we’re doing a show on manhood, he was like, oh, who are

Eric Deschamps:
the guests

Rob Dale:
who are the guys. So so we fired Steve. We fired Steve. And, we just we haven’t told them yet. We haven’t told. We need we just announced again.

Eric Deschamps:
This is happening in real time.

Rob Dale:
Because we need to record the episode, but, no. You listen. We recognize that worse there are times when I fall into that trap of doing things that are unhealthy, that are, you you know, that that that lean into the negative elements or the negative aspects and characteristics of manhood. We’re not there. We’re we’re learning and this is stuff we’re discovering, along the way of of how we can be open to the benefits and the dangers pitfalls of many of the typical stereotypes of of what we see as manhood.

Eric Deschamps:
Exactly. And and actually even using the term toxic masculinity can be problematic.

Rob Dale:
Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
And there’s a great, TED talk, we’ll put it in the show notes, of a young college student who gave this 20 minute talk on toxic masculinity, but he opens with the whole his thesis is using that language is problematic because, typically, what we do is we lump into the category of toxic masculinity the real extreme stuff that shows up. So aggression, violence, misogyny, you know, sexism, macho kinda we throw all like, we think that’s what it is, and we miss the subtle nuances of men being unable to tap into their emotional life, men being shut off from each other in the world and living in isolation and loneliness, being unable to ask for help or to be honest about who they are and how they show up. These are, the those are also toxic mindsets. They may not be as extreme as some of the other stuff, but when we lump it all together, we need to understand toxic masculinity actually covers a wide range of ideologies, mindsets, and behaviors that are not serving us well. And we what we wanna do again is we wanna draw out what we see to be the strengths, and, again, we invite our listeners to weigh in and keep that feedback coming. Like, even the blowback, bring it on. Like, because it’s gonna help us think this is a conversation, and we want people at the table. But we have to understand it’s a lot more nuanced than just the extreme behavior that we think.

Eric Deschamps:
Part of part of our

Rob Dale:
goal over the next number of episodes in this series, we’re gonna look at some of the stereotypes. You know, there there’s a lot of them, but we’ll focus in on probably 5 or 6 of them. Exactly. Maybe let’s just, like, rapid fire, let’s just talk about what are some of the ones we’re gonna talk about over both today and then over the next number of episodes.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Well, today, we’re gonna be talking about the the lone wolf. Right? We’ll also be be talking about the lonely wolf, which is a a version of that. But the lone wolf is that individual who that rugged, independent, resilient individual, but who also sometimes struggles with isolation and asking for help and leaning on others.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. Then we’re gonna talk about the stoic. Mhmm. That’s that kind of the, you know, the you think of the the the strong silent type. Right? Like, the the guy who holds everything in and and, but also struggles then because he’s able to have such control over those emotions, can struggle with when to share them and when to express them and people really don’t know how to connect to that individual. That’s gonna be one we

Eric Deschamps:
talk about. It’s like, I say the stoic is like the person in an emotional straitjacket. Right? They’re really constrained. Then we have the provider. Right? And that’s one that many men can relate to. We’ve often been defined by our ability to provide for our loved ones and our families, and this can lead to a a real, again, that’s a beautiful thing to provide and to provide for our our kids and our our our our significant others and the rest of it, if you’re in that situation or in that stage of life. But it can lead to a really negative mindset where you’re you’re defined by your ability to provide. And a lot of men, especially later stage career, when they lose their jobs or their career is not going the way that they they they thought it should, and this can happen actually much earlier in life as well when we think of my career is not going the way that I thought, that our worth is tied to our ability to provide, our ability to succeed.

Eric Deschamps:
And that’s that can be really

Rob Dale:
I I’m planning on skipping that episode because that one hits really close to home. And, so

Eric Deschamps:
so I guess we will be in need of

Rob Dale:
a guest on that one. Yeah. Yeah. We’ll, we’ll have somebody else in here as a guest host on that one. There’s the live action hero.

Eric Deschamps:
This is so this is the live action hero. This is like every action movie Absolutely. We’ve ever seen.

Rob Dale:
Hey. There’s a isn’t there a isn’t Schwarzenegger do a movie? The live action hero, Riley. It’s actually the title right out of that. Gotcha. And this is the person who is always he’s willing to risk everything. He’s willing to he just kinda shows up, and it’s like, have no fear. I’m here. Right? And he’s Yeah.

Rob Dale:
I’m gonna be the one to solve everything, and and I’m so strong. And look at me, and I’m yay you. Right? And that’s gonna be their kind of focus.

Eric Deschamps:
Totally. And then finally, there’s the traditionalist. This is the person that holds to very traditional, points of view that can be really limiting in today’s world, about, gender roles and and family roles and, again, identity and where that identity comes from. So we’re we’re gonna be diving into a lot of these, but I’m really excited to dive into the lone wolf. Throughout the centuries, the lone wolf, think of that image in your mind when you conjure it up. This beautiful creature, often found in solitude. Right? When we think specifically lone wolf, it’s found in solitude in nature. Incredibly rugged, incredibly independent, incredibly resilient and self sufficient.

Eric Deschamps:
Right? But the dark side of that and so we’re gonna explore the benefits of that first, and then we’re gonna go to the dark side. But the dark side, is often about that that showing any issues or having any concerns or problems or asking for help is a sign of weakness. That is his extreme version, and then men end up being very they go from lone wolf to lonely wolf. They go to, being very much on their own and not having a strong supportive community

Rob Dale:
around them. We see the lone wolf, celebrated often in movies. Mhmm. You know, you think of the the pioneer, the the trail blazer. You know, he’s, you think some of the westerns, the the lone wolf is the guy that, again, he’s leading the way. You feel safe because he’s around, but he’s at a distance. He’s he’s he’s at a you know, sits by himself in the dark while everybody else is around the campfire, and he’s, you know, owned just all on his own. Nobody really knows him.

Rob Dale:
He’s the he’s the sergeant or the captain in the army when they’re pursuing and, again, is sitting there carrying the burden. I carry the load of everybody on my shoulders. It’s all me about this, and it’s that kind of an idea. We we we celebrate it often in in our media.

Eric Deschamps:
Oh, totally. Absolutely. Again, I think that’s why it’s been a symbol. Even in in in in religion, in different cultures, the wolf is celebrated as a sign again of this strength, rugged independence, and self reliance, and that’s where we’ll start. We we talk about, again, we’re not we we celebrate the ability to be independent and self reliant. We, someone who is able to, I have a strong sense of self. Right? That, they’re able, regardless of their social circle, regardless of the expectations around them, to to lead their own life, to be independent and able to function and and follow their heart, follow their dreams without a ton of support. There are seasons in our lives, and we’ve talked about this so many times on the show, where you start making choices, you start making decisions, and you better be prepared to channel your lone wolf because, you you those decisions and choices you make may start making your social circles uncomfortable.

Eric Deschamps:
Right? What do we say, not long ago, we talked about, you know, when you start breaking free from mediocrity, you’re gonna make people around you uncomfortable. Someone who’s got that is channeling what what what I think is a beautiful quality of the lone wolf archetype is the ability to stand strong, self sufficient, self reliant, able to function, and and not just function, but thrive even when they don’t have all the support systems in place.

Rob Dale:
The the resilience. Resilience.

Eric Deschamps:
I love that one.

Rob Dale:
The ability to you know, you think of the lone wolf, you think of that individual who heads out into the wilderness to face their demons, to to, to to fight their battles, to be able to and then they come back transformed. They come back changed because they face the storm. They face the the weather on their own. And and again, it’s a sell. There are times and seasons where all of us need to get alone and face our demons 100%. And battle our and take our battles. Right? It’s it’s part of the the hero’s journey

Eric Deschamps:
Yep.

Rob Dale:
That’s an element of it, really, where you leave your community. You accept the invitation. And you accept the invitation to fight to face the dragon. Right. Now you’re not doing it necessarily fully alone. You’re doing it with your guide. Yep. But there is that element of leaving the lone the the lone wolf is even celebrated in the hero’s journey as part of, in a positive way, part of the necessary journey.

Eric Deschamps:
So when we talk about much of the work of being your best self, and living an authentic life, that work is work only you can do for yourself. Right? So embracing, again, that lone wolf mentality of I can do this. I’ve got what I need, that resilience, and even that focus and determination to get it done. Along the way, again, the lone wolf taken to an extreme is problematic because even in nature, most wolves live in packs. Right? Like, the the vast majority of the wolf population, they live in packs. A lone wolf is an actual thing where for different reasons, a wolf will split from its pack and may spend, several months, even years sometimes on its own, and some never rejoin a pack. And the survival rate of those lone wolves is much lower than the survival rate of wolves that are doing community. Right? They’re doing this together, but it’s the the so it’s understanding that there are seasons.

Eric Deschamps:
I think some people are so reliant on their community, that they struggle to take a stand. They struggle to follow their dream for fear of what their friends or social network will say or family will say. Think of the entrepreneur, I mean, which is, like, the true entrepreneur that’s willing to pursue a dream, leave the safety of the JOB, build a business on their own, and and and go after it. Man, that’s lone wolf. That’s the ability to doesn’t matter what the pack

Rob Dale:
says. I’m following my heart. And and we’ve had, entrepreneurs on this show that will talk about that not only did they have to leave the JOB. They also had to deal with the criticism and the challenge of those closest to them who thought they were crazy to be stepping out and doing that. And and so, again, in that positive way, we celebrate the lone wolf is the one who is able to, at times, again, for whatever they when they truly believe, and again, they there’s a lot of stuff that has to happen to keep you from being disillusioned with your belief, But when you know, and it means you have to stand strong like that solid rock even when your own community is pushing against you, that’s there’s there’s something there that not all the time, but for some of us, we have

Eric Deschamps:
to go through those experiences. Keegan and Leahy in their work, immunity to change, talk about, adults’ brain development.

Rob Dale:
Right?

Eric Deschamps:
And and, so beyond the age of 25 ish, where the finally, your you’ve now got a got a fully formed brain because until then, your brain is still forming.

Rob Dale:
Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
But beyond the age of 25, we didn’t think, it used to be that we didn’t think that people’s brains could really grow, but they’ve identified these stages of growth. And the first stage is what they call the socialized brain. And the socialized brain, we’ve talked about it before, but it’s worth mentioning here when we’re talking about the lone wolf archetype. The the the socialized brain, which is where 70% of the population live, Rob. Yeah. They never break free from it. They never grow past it, and the socialized brain is I’m doing everything I can to fit in. Right? And so To belong.

Eric Deschamps:
To belong, but it’s not true belonging because true belonging, and I think Brene Brown defines it this way, if you have to be something else, other than who your true self is to fit in, that’s not belonging. Okay? True belonging is I am who I am, and you accept me as I am, and and we walk together. That’s true belonging. But I think the the the second stage would go back to those stages of adult development, the socialized brain. The next is self authoring, and I’ll stop there. We won’t go into the rest of the model, but I think the lone wolf understands self authoring, understands the ability to break away from the pack when necessary to develop that sense of self, that sense of identity, that sense of agency, that I am my own individual with my own thoughts and my own beliefs and my own systems. And then, of course, that can become rigid over time, and the final stage is self transforming where you continue to grow in your sense of self, but you also mature in your ability to

Rob Dale:
I was gonna challenge you when you said we’re gonna stop there and not share the rest of the model. I was like, no, you can’t. No. We can’t stop. Because you you’ve got that is the place that is the ideal place is the self transformation. Right? Getting into that person.

Eric Deschamps:
Perhaps perhaps I never, so this is coming to me in the moment. I’ve never actually connected, though, Keegan and Leahy’s work to the lone wolf archetype. But I think, again, the lone wolf, I think there’s so much greatness there, and I just wanna keep saying that that there are times you need to be able to channel that as a man and and and hold on to who you are and be willing to, sacrifice, a popularity and the accolades of the crowd or the support of your friends and your drinking buddies. Right? Again, we’re trying to elevate the conversation beyond babes, booze, business, and blood sports. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with any of those things. I happen to be fans of all 4. Okay? To a degree. Well, booze like to a degree, but, you know what I mean.

Eric Deschamps:
But we’re trying to elevate the conversation to something more important. And I think the, the the lone wolf that is not able to move into self transforming, which is the ability to reconnect with the pack and actually stay connected while developing its sense of self. I think that’s the wolf that ends up becoming

Rob Dale:
the lonely one. That’s why we’re calling it mindful

Eric Deschamps:
Yes.

Rob Dale:
Masculinity. Choose your way forward. Exactly. Because the more mindful we show up, we’re able to know when will the the lone wolf serve us and when will it not. 100%. Because we know this, the Living Richly model is, like, through and through the entire model of what we talk about is community. Right. And the recognition that, again, we’ve been using this quote, we use it so many times.

Rob Dale:
It’s a it’s just it’s I wanna drive it home with people. You can go, if you wanna go fast, go alone. You wanna go far, go together. Yeah. You could the lone wolf can go fast Right. But not far.

Eric Deschamps:
That’s far. They need the pack. We still need the pack at the end of the day. Right? Some of the other benefits is, there’s this interesting and and we don’t have time to get into it all today, but most of us are familiar with the alpha male. Yeah. We talk about alpha males for decades, right, for so long. And that’s that aggressive, take charge kind of person, right, that moves the ball forward. And, you know, they’re the jock.

Eric Deschamps:
They’re the the man’s man, like, the alpha male, right, that is often at the front of the room. There’s been an interesting study, and it’s con a conversation that’s been going on for some time about the sigma male. And the sigma male is actually, exhibits more lone wolf tendencies where they tend they don’t need to be at the front of the room. They don’t need to take charge. They but they they know how to they know how to connect when they need to, and they know when to pull back when they need to. And and some of the benefits, again, as we continue to explore them, because if we can call them sigma males or lone wolves, they tend to spend more time on their own. Again, an unhealthy version of that would be isolated. Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
But, but I think, there is power in solitude in terms of your own self awareness and your personal growth. I think a lot of folks, they don’t do the work, Rob, because they’re they just surround themselves and fill their lives with activity and even relationships and people. And I’m a big fan of community. You know that. Yep. But there needs to be a time, where you pull away and you figure out who you are, and you’re not just following the crowd or following the expectations or living according to the the the shoulds, musts, and have tos as we often say.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. Yeah. The the notion of and I love the distinction between solitude and isolation. Mhmm. And and there, again, the mindful man is one who is able to recognize I need a season. I I’m I get energy. I might I I so community is one of my core values Mhmm. And yet my energy, cup is filled in in solitude.

Rob Dale:
Right. Right. Right? It’s it’s, we record a bunch of episodes or, you know, I I you I often use the 2 of us as examples, you know, based on our styles, when we’re doing public speaking. The end of it, I do I speak at an event. After I speak at the event, I’m depleted. Right. I I love it. Yeah.

Rob Dale:
And I think I’m pretty decent at it.

Eric Deschamps:
You’re But I You’re amazing at it.

Rob Dale:
Thank you. And but at the end of it, I I wanna go and just relax, and and I’ll even sneak into a a room by myself for a little bit. You’re energized. Alright. That didn’t sound right. That’s not what I meant. Or you can Did I? Or did you? But I want that solitude. Yeah.

Rob Dale:
You, at the end of an event, you’re like, hey. I’m ready to go. Everybody. Like, let’s go. Right? And and then so it’s it’s again recognizing. But isolation is I’m avoiding people

Eric Deschamps:
Right.

Rob Dale:
Because I don’t want to deal with the mindful part of I I don’t wanna work through things that I know I need to work through.

Eric Deschamps:
Right. And often that isolation is not, it doesn’t just happen overnight. It grows through, again, the darker side of it’s interesting. We do a lot of personality work and behavioral preference work in in in the work that we do with our clients. And we often talk about different personality types and how each of those types has superpowers, and they have gaps. Right? Each each style has it. So there’s wonderful genius that each style brings into the world, and then there are some blind spots that they need to be mindful of. But what’s interesting is when you study that in our work, we’ve discovered that often the greatest blind spots are where the person gets themselves in the most trouble is the overuse of their superpower, not properly sort of, you know, shored up by other things.

Eric Deschamps:
Right? And so it’s the same here. Lone wolf is a wonderful gift, and I think it’s something we’ve said it already, but you need to get comfortable with your lone wolf because you’re gonna need that archetype at several types throughout your journey where even, if we whether, you’re religious or not, the the the Jewish story of Jesus, right, in the new testament. Before he launched, he’s 30 years a carpenter, and before he launches into his 3 year career that would end terribly, right, and quite poorly, He went into well, the story says he went into the desert for what? For 40 days

Rob Dale:
Yeah.

Eric Deschamps:
By himself to be tempted by the devil. That’s the story. Well, he was channeling in the story, he’s channeling his lone wolf to say, I can stand on my own in this moment. There’s a lot of folks that struggle to stand on their own, but the lonely wolf comes out of a lifetime, of decision after decision after decision of not relying on other people, not asking for help, not revealing weakness, of of thinking you’ve gotta have it all together. And so over time, you just become more and more isolated.

Rob Dale:
And those and that lonely wolf is is controlled by scripts Right.

Eric Deschamps:
Or beliefs. Yeah. 100%.

Rob Dale:
Right? And that’s what keeps them from from being able to engage is because they have beliefs around that. And maybe let’s I’d love to talk about Yeah. What are some of those beliefs that the lone wolf or the lonely wolf, perhaps, holds on to, and then what are some maybe counter ways.

Eric Deschamps:
Right?

Rob Dale:
Counter beliefs.

Eric Deschamps:
Different ways to say that. So Well, I think one of the first ones for sure is that independence is everything. Right? And that needing others is a weakness. That, to me is a falsehood. Right? Independence is important. It’s critical because, again, if you’re not able to stand on your own, you will follow the crowd. If you can’t get clear on who you are and what you stand for, you’re gonna live somebody else’s story. You’ve got to have independence, but, independence within community is what we’re talking about here.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. Another one is that emotional vulnerability is a is a sign of weakness.

Eric Deschamps:
That’s right.

Rob Dale:
And and that goes to even though Don’t let

Eric Deschamps:
them see a cry. Right?

Rob Dale:
Right. And and and, or how many times when you’re engaged in having a powerful conversation where somebody does now this is true, I think, even with women, but certainly with men, and you’re having a powerful conversation, they start to get teary or they apologize Right. For it. Right? Right. But I think, you know, go back to the comment that we did receive from that gentleman. That was one of the powerful statements, that he said which is a belief that the that the lonely wolf would hold which is that vulnerability is for women. Yeah. And the counter to that is emotional vulnerability.

Rob Dale:
When we get truly in tune and connected to our emotions and are able to be open and share those, there is freedom Huge. That comes from that. There is a and it’s it’s it’s like your world that your world goes from black and white to color.

Eric Deschamps:
It’s it’s, men who struggle, and we’re gonna talk about this a lot more when we deal with the stoic because the stoic is all about wearing that emotional straight jacket. And and, again, there are there’s great strength in in channeling the stoic in emotionally charged situations. The stoic can keep their cool Yep. And and and lead in a in a way that’s more calm, cool, and collected. But often it leads to this emotional shutdown. It’s like part of your gear as a man isn’t working. It’s like you’re living life and and and and part of your computer doesn’t even function properly. Like, you’re you’re missing out on an entire experience of life.

Eric Deschamps:
I love how you go. It’s like from black and white to color. It truly is. Mhmm. Because in your happy moments, in those, wonderful moments that happen on a day to day basis, you struggle to connect with them because emotionally you’re shut down. And when we talk about the heart, and and fire as the element that represents the heart, Again, passion, love, zeal, enthusiasm, emotions are important, to living a full life.

Rob Dale:
It’s yeah. There’s so much more we can go into on that.

Eric Deschamps:
We’ll save

Rob Dale:
that for the save it for the for the story. Yeah. I I think another one is just that, you know, asking for help is a sign of of weakness or a sign of failure that, I I need to have my shit together. I need to know my shit. And we see it because we work with so many leaders. And the reality is is that, certainly right now, there seems to be more male leaders than women leaders, that are at least in employed roles. Yeah. And and we see it oftentimes with

Eric Deschamps:
the the the I I read something recently that the the the the women leaders were gaining ground,

Rob Dale:
which is a great sign.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. But that that started to reverse a little

Rob Dale:
bit. Okay.

Eric Deschamps:
And that recent numbers are showing that it’s they’ve they’ve lost some ground.

Rob Dale:
But in our experience even in having conversations, what I have found with my coaching clients is the the women leaders that I coach are more likely to to say to me or admit when they don’t understand something or when they’re asking for clarity around something, where the men will will go, oh, yeah. That’s right. That’s right. And I’ll go just and it’s only if I probe a bit more that they’ll go, well, actually, maybe I’m not maybe can you explain that a bit? I’m not too clear. But they’re they’re afraid to even admit that they’re not quite comprehending what I might be, communicating to them in

Eric Deschamps:
that moment. Yeah. 100%. And, you know, so some men struggle. Like, we talk about men won’t even ask for directions. Right? Why? Because, I gotta figure this out on my own. And they’d rather drive around for an hour, or 2 hours before they pull over to station. Sightseeing.

Eric Deschamps:
Or just sightseeing. Thankfully, now we have Google.

Rob Dale:
So Yeah. We don’t

Eric Deschamps:
have apps. Apple Maps, so we don’t need to ask her directions. It it’s right there at our fingertip, but, fingertips. But the the problem is, again, when we feel we need to handle problems on our own and that seeking help is a sign of weakness, it really actually sets us back. And, I know for me, I can go back. I was thinking about this because, you know, it’s great that we’re talking about these, but I’m, like, what where does this show up for me, and and how does this, impact me? And, I have a pattern pretty much from a young age of that asking for help in the right context was kinda normal for me. I think I have sought that along with community, true community, for most of my especially into my teens, early adulthood, and and then because of my experience like yours in the church world where there was so much pressure, I I did reach out for help and look for that support. And I I I sought it from from my dad, and and I saw it from other male figures, specifically, and female figures, in my life.

Eric Deschamps:
But most of the time, I experienced a lot of disappointment there. I still remember, you know, times where I asked my dad a couple times. They were took a lot of courage for me, to share. And and most of our listeners couldn’t understand or relate to this perhaps because unless you were raised in a super religious environment. But, one quick story. Like, I was a teenage boy. This is back in the well, I forget now. I’d have to do the math.

Eric Deschamps:
But do you remember those big satellite dishes?

Rob Dale:
Were black and white.

Eric Deschamps:
Do you remember those big satellite dishes that we used to install in our backyards to get all these channels? And we lived in the country. We were one of the first to get one. And, of course, that meant that, that was like the Internet at that time. It meant that here I am, 13, 14 year old boy, hormones Movies. Exactly. Right? There was there was porn. There was all the stuff available. And, again, that’s just that’s just a natural developmental thing, but be being raised in a hyper religious environment, all that did was make me feel really ashamed that that somehow I’m a bad person for enjoying this or wanting to look at it.

Eric Deschamps:
And I remember finding the courage to go talk to my dad about it. Okay? And my dad was wonderful in so many ways, and he showed up the best he could, but, he didn’t have many tools. And and he was, pretty much a workaholic, and and by the time he’d come home, he didn’t have much left. But I remember finding, finding the the courage to talk to him about it. And, he he completely shit the bed. Like, he, he kinda said, well, I’m sorry. I didn’t, I should have been more mindful of that, but he never did anything about it. He never followed up with me about it.

Eric Deschamps:
He I was, like, in tears when I told him because I felt so ashamed. So that and other experiences throughout my life, I I developed the script of being a burden. So I I can tell you I can relate to this dark side of the, of the lone wolf that although it’s still my nature to ask for help. I I work with a coach. I right? Sherry, who’s been on the show, and I talk to her regularly. I find that to be a safe place, but I can tell you sometimes in my closest relationships, I still play lonely wolf and carry the burden alone because I feel like I’m burdening the people in my life. So so I think sometimes these these these dark sides develop out of pain. They develop out of scripts, as you say, that have shaped their thinking.

Rob Dale:
They they so much do. And, you know, when you talk about your story, when my story being, you know, where I didn’t there was no father figure really around. And when my, you know, my dad was in prison for most of my life when my mom, did remarry, and and, again, a wonderful guy, but he was not a he was like, you know, he was like your buddy. Right? He was he was, he really was. It it was one of the biggest frustrations that my mom would have was, you know, parent with me, co parent, and he was just a kind of a buddy and goofy and all this stuff. You could never have a serious conversation around anything that was important or of and and so for me, I I had to learn to just figure this stuff out on my own or not figure it out because there I didn’t believe there was anyone I could go to to help Right. To ask for help and to to seek that out. And and so we carry a lot of that stuff does shape us, and the type of man we are gets shaped from all of those kind of experiences.

Rob Dale:
And, again, we’re I I love that you used the word shame there. What we are trying to do through the conversation around mindful masculinity is to remove the shame. Remove the shame. Right? To just Yeah. Listen. There are gonna be days when you you maybe you don’t do the best things as a man. Yeah. And there may be days when you just you hit it out of the park Yeah.

Rob Dale:
And they’re both okay. Both okay. Right? One’s not good, one’s bad. They’re both okay. Yeah. Exactly. It’s it’s being mindful Yeah. Of, okay, what happened there when it didn’t work, and what happened there when it did work.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Rob Dale:
And then what do I learn from both?

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. And you and you think of, you know, both your experiences and mine. I’m grateful. You’ve heard me talk about the the the larger quadrant model. Right? But, originally, it was, just, you know, what we talked about. It it developed much further, and part of his reclaiming your story. And part of reclaiming your story is seeing and connecting the dots between how even some of the less positive experiences, even outright negative experiences you experienced growing up and that have really shaped you, how they develop certain strengths in you. I’m grateful that I can, when I need to be, I can be independent.

Eric Deschamps:
I can be self reliant. I can be self sufficient. Yeah. I don’t overly depend on a community. I don’t feel held back by a community, and yet I’m a community person. Like, I wanna be in relationship. I connection is one of my core values, but I know that I I’m able to in the and and sometimes I don’t do that perfectly. I don’t do it right all the time, but I’m able to follow my heart and follow what’s in my, my heart to accomplish and not feel all the trappings of what is everyone gonna think.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. I’m sensitive to it, but I’m not I’m not held back to it most of the time, if that makes sense.

Rob Dale:
Oh, it makes total sense, and I think it’s absolutely exactly where we want to be. Right? To be I I celebrate all of those characteristics of the lone wolf. I guard against the lonely wolf. Right. Right. And and it’s about making sure and and the reason why is because we know, the stats tell us, that the lonely wolf doesn’t end well. Right.

Eric Deschamps:
It, in most cases, it doesn’t end well. A 100%. One one of the other false beliefs, Rob, is, connection and intimacy are secondary to self reliance. And what do we mean there? That’s if if, I I I have to stand on my own. And, although, again, there’s there’s truth in that statement. All of us have to stand on our own. When we say the connection, intimacy, our second rate to depending on ourselves, we tend to enter into relationships very guarded, very protected. We only let people in so far.

Eric Deschamps:
I think connection and intimacy are vital human needs, and and we have to move. It’s not about not becoming self aware. I think some men and and this is not some of these things aren’t limited to men, by the way, but I think they just show up pretty strongly for us. We’re afraid to be intimate. We’re afraid to be vulnerable because, at its essence, intimacy requires vulnerability. Intimacy is a vulnerable act. And the more, intimate you want to become, the more vulnerability will be required. And some men are just so afraid of vulnerability that somehow that makes them weak.

Eric Deschamps:
It makes them needy, that somehow they’re not strong and they’re not able to stand on their own. We need to understand these two things are not opposites. They’re two sides of the same coin. You can be strong in yourself and connected. You can be independent and interdependent. You can have, your own thoughts about how the world works and your own beliefs and be in an intimate relationship with someone else. Letting someone else in is not a threat. It’s, I believe, the very essence of what it means to

Rob Dale:
be human. And I think the healthiest way to be intimate and to be in that relationship and vulnerable is to be able to have that other side of the coin. When you when you put put the when you say it like that, that these are, you know, two sides of the same coin, it’s actually that’s this is how much it it’s important to be able to have that Interdependent relationship with someone else. I choose to connect with someone, to be vulnerable with someone because I have the strength. I have the ability to do that. And tied in so closely to that is another belief. I think they almost they’re almost the same because they go so hand in hand, and that’s the ability to trust. Right? I can’t trust anybody.

Rob Dale:
People are not I am hurt. I’m gonna get burnt. Right. I’m gonna it’s gonna be I’m gonna be betrayed. So I’m just gonna say hold off. I’m gonna do my own thing because it’s easier.

Eric Deschamps:
That’s safe.

Rob Dale:
It’s just it’s safe. Yeah. Right? And and and listen, I experienced this, as a young man. This was again, because I I moved a lot, I was always the the kid that showed up in school for the you know, I was in and everybody already knew each other. Again, it was just the nature. I talk a lot about that in in other episodes where just how much I moved around and stuff like that. And I would show in and try to connect. And sometimes I connect and I’d be me, and that would turn on me.

Rob Dale:
And I would get bullied, and I would have all kinds of these other experiences happen. And it did lead to, for me and for a lot of other reasons, this was a big script of mine is I don’t trust people. I don’t I don’t become vulnerable with someone because they’re going to betray. Right. They’re gonna be. Because they’re going to hurt me.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Rob Dale:
And and the recognizing again, the greatest freedom comes when I’m able to allow the true me to show up.

Eric Deschamps:
Think think of how many times, male clients have sat across from us either in person or on Zoom. And as we’re talking, they become vulnerable, and they have an emotional moment. Somehow taking them out of the everyday in that safe and sacred space we create for them. You and I have seen men shed tears. We have seen men sob. We have seen men, you know, slam the desk saying this is not what I signed up for. We’ve seen them become vulnerable, and yet they struggle to do that in other parts of their lives, and trust is such a big thing. And the reality is that we will trust people, and people will let us down.

Eric Deschamps:
That’s part of the human experience, but it’s not a reason to shut people out and become again that lonely wolf. And that’s let let’s talk about can we let let’s dive into the danger of isolation here for a moment. We’ve talked about some of the benefit, like, the the amazing benefits that the lone wolf archetype teaches us and espouses and and some of the beliefs and counter beliefs. But, we’ve already mentioned lone wolves in nature don’t don’t last as long typically. A study, a recent study pointed out that people who are socially, isolated have a 32% higher chance of dying early, compared to people who don’t experience isolation with older men, facing a significant friendship, deficit. The the I was shocked when I did the research on this. Yeah. That loneliness and isolation among men, the lonely wolf, is a real problem.

Eric Deschamps:
It’s it’s

Rob Dale:
a growing epidemic. Yeah. And what happens for so many men is because those their male relationships are, you know, they’re surface level at best. Right? They’re and they’re tied to, oh, these are my hockey buddies or these are my golf buddies or my yeah. These are my these are my, drinking buddies, boost. Drinking buddies, or I go riding with these guys, or or or I work out, you know. Or their

Eric Deschamps:
or their colleagues in business. Right?

Rob Dale:
Colleagues in business, entrepreneur. All wonderful things, but it never gets deeper than that. It never gets truly that connection. They don’t have those same relationships. And and, again, I’m sure it’s true of women. Women’s, there is an element where you do see it where women can have their girlfriends who they so connect to, and they talk about anything. And, you know, we’ve heard Kate and Wendy talk about, you know, some of the conversations that their their packs will have together and everything like this. And and most guys would never have those conversations around feelings and emotions.

Rob Dale:
And and now I have some people like that in my life. You’re one of them. And to have people like that that I’m able to just engage with and have those conversations. Again, it’s such a freeing. I know I keep using the word, but it just it it takes that burden off of you. Most don’t have it, and so at best, they have a relationship with one person that’s their significant other.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Rob Dale:
And even then, they’re probably not all that great at being vulnerable with them, but they have that and inevitably, when that ends, and it some oftentimes does, or even if it doesn’t, it it breaks down because there hasn’t been that vulnerability. Now that that guy is completely on an island by themselves. They have

Eric Deschamps:
no one. They they track the study of, you know, young men who may grow up and through high school, university, they have their group of friends and but then inevitably, people start hitching up and having kids and careers and moving away, and the access to that friend group, begins to dissipate usually unless you’re very deliberate about it. Some are are fortunate that that doesn’t happen, but it certainly wasn’t the case for me. I never actually had a very large friend circle. So I, I am very familiar with lonely wolf. Yeah. I’ve lived as a lonely wolf probably for 53 years of my life. And that’s with great people in my life.

Eric Deschamps:
I’m not alone, but I feel loneliness on a regular basis. That’s tied to a bunch of different things. One, my upbringing, growing up very different than the average person. Right, I didn’t do the party circuit. I didn’t do high school. I didn’t do normal college, university. You and I both. Right?

Rob Dale:
Remember the times somebody would name a band or, oh, I remember when this song came out or when this happened? I was like,

Eric Deschamps:
I don’t have the social reference. Right? Where you’re standing in a crowd. Even to this day, you’re standing in a crowd, and you’re getting to know people, and they’re talking about things, and you’re, like, internally, I’m fighting this. You’re a freak, Deshaun. You’re a freak. And and I continue I mean, I’m I I I’ve done made a lot of progress on that. So I’m I’m not alone all the time, but I feel loneliness, pretty regularly, and I’m still working on that. It’s something I’m definitely working on.

Eric Deschamps:
But the the the to your point, as as as as young men grow up and their social circle starts to fall apart in many cases or or dissipate, they tend to over rely on their significant other for all of their social needs. And then, again, if the marriage falls apart, relationship doesn’t last, they’re they’re left feeling alone. That’s why that, beyond the age of 55, the suicide rates among men are frightening. Men are not as likely to admit that they’re feeling lonely and are certainly not likely to ask for help. And so in the US, 4 out of some of some of the research I saw, and happy to have my, my opinion changed if someone knows, if I’m I’m quoting wrong numbers here. But from what I saw, suicide rates 4 out of 5 suicides among men in the sorry. Yeah. Not just among men.

Eric Deschamps:
4 out of 5 suicides in total, in the US are men. 3 out of 4 in Canada. And this just gets really, the the the the the scale just goes, like, bonkers after but, again, channeling, like, we can change that. And and the ideas we need to change that, and encourage men that, there there are communities out there where you can find support. And I think even this show, even starting this series of shows, is really designed to do just that, is to start that conversation. If you’re watching this show and you struggle with loneliness, I get you. I feel you. Come to the table.

Eric Deschamps:
Let’s let’s talk. There are ways to turn that around.

Rob Dale:
You know, and let me give you a couple examples. And and I’ve got, I I was chatting with 1 guy, and I’m not in his communities. He’s a an acquaintance, somebody that I know. But we are talking about the importance of connections and, you know, and having conversations with other men and and the value in that. And, and he was talking about how a group of his neighbors, guys, they just would start to, every Wednesday night, they would gather in one of the, driveways, and they would light up cigars or, you know, have some, whiskey or something like this, and they would just shoot the shit. Yeah. And and he said how it it began is very superficial, social. They’re you know, they didn’t come in the 1st day and say, so what feeling do you have right now? Right? Like like, it wasn’t like that.

Rob Dale:
But it but because it stayed as a consistent thing over the course of time when one of them had their their significant other had, was diagnosed with cancer, suddenly they had to figure that out because they were awkward the first time, and one of the guys was brave enough to go first Yeah. And say, hey, guys, this is awkward as fuck. We’re all sitting around here pretending that, Joe, you’re not, like, going through hell right now. Can we talk about it? And it and it just allowed for that. And so it was a great example and and, you know, I just think that for guys that that that part of my mom used to say, right, in these old days, right, if you want a friend, be a friend. Right. And I think part of what breaks that, loneliness is making the effort to to reach out and connect to people. Right.

Rob Dale:
I’m an I’m again, I I’m good hanging out with Wendy. Yeah. I have we we can we kayak together, we work out together, we do all that stuff.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah.

Rob Dale:
I know it’s not healthy

Eric Deschamps:
Right.

Rob Dale:
To only have that relationship. Right? But I’m not good at reaching out and saying, hey, we wanna go hang out, wanna go do this. Like, but the more we do that, and we we have some couple friends that we do that deliberately with, but the more you do that, the more then you’re able to break free from that loneliness. Yeah. And and

Eric Deschamps:
we’re we’re we’re gonna be running out of time. Yeah. We’re gonna wrap this up very soon. But, to add to that, Rob, like, men that over rely on their significant other for prime their primary social connection, most of their social connection needs, It’s putting a lot of pressure on one person, to meet meet those needs. Right? We need a village. We need a community. And I’ve come to realize, you know, after, you know, reinventing myself a few times, which every time I made a decision, to reinvent myself, it meant the loss of the community that I was a part of. After 2 divorces, which I know you can relate to, loss of community was the result.

Eric Deschamps:
And here I am at 53 going, alright. If it’s gonna be, it’s up to me. Mhmm. Right? It’s a community is not just gonna happen. I have to take the steps, and I have to make the outreach and begin to put myself in situations where I can begin to rebuild, that social network. We wanna encourage, the lone wolf, in all of its beauty, in all of its glory, in all of its strength to stand strong when you need to stand strong, but understand lonely wolf will not serve you well. Yeah. Closing words from you, before, we wrap up the show.

Rob Dale:
Well, just I will go back to emphasizing the word mindful. And, what I wanna encourage our listeners to is as we have these conversations and, you know, we’re gonna look at all these different, stereotypes, is in every one of them, be mindful of the value of the stereotype. It’s a stereotype for a reason. Yeah. Be mindful of the value of it. Be wary. Be mindful of the of the damage it can cause and find that common ground. Find that place where you can say, I can embrace this when needed.

Rob Dale:
Yeah. I can also recognize when it’s not serving me well.

Eric Deschamps:
Yeah. Love that. Love that. Folks, we’re so glad that you’ve joined us today, for our second in in our series on being a real man. There’ll be other shows to follow. Thanks for tuning in today. As always, we encourage you to like, share, and subscribe. Let’s get the word out.

Eric Deschamps:
I think this message needs to be heard, and we’re super excited about next week on next week’s show, the 15 day, amazing vision challenge is launching, and we’re devoting an entire show, to talk to you about that. But you’re gonna not gonna wanna miss that episode, and you’re gonna wanna make sure you’re connected to us on social so you can be part of this exciting experience. Again, we’re so grateful for your ongoing support. The show continues to grow in popularity, and, we are just humbled, that you keep tuning in every week. And, we look forward to the conversation next week. And until then, keep living your best life.

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