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Change can be scary, but it’s also an opportunity for growth and self-discovery. Join Eric, Rob, and Trefor as they explore the benefits of embracing change and share practical tips for navigating life’s transitions with grace and resilience. Whether you’re facing a career change, a relationship shift, or any other kind of transition, this episode will help you find your footing and live your richest life. 

 You can watch the videos of all of the Living Richly Podcast episodes on the Living Richly YouTube Channel.

Show Notes for Episode 25

On this episode, we say goodbye to Trefor as a regular host on the show. We are deeply grateful for his rich contributions to the Living Richly Podcast and movement, and look forward to having him back as a guest in the future.

You can reach Trefor at

A great resource for managing change is Henry Cloud’s book, Necessary Endings by Henry Cloud.

Key Concepts from Episode 25 – Embracing Change


Lead the dance of change.

Change is an inevitable part of life. It can be imposed upon us externally or come from within us as we transform and grow. It is important to recognize that we have the power to lead the dance of change, regardless of the circumstances we face.

When faced with external changes, we have the choice to either resist them or accept them and use them as an opportunity for growth. This can be difficult, as it often requires us to step outside our comfort zone and make difficult decisions. For example, my friend Trefor recently made the difficult decision to step away from his role as a regular host on the Living Richly podcast. He had been part of the podcast for 24 episodes and was an integral part of the team. Despite the difficulty of the decision, Trefor chose to embrace the change and make a decision that was best for him.

Internal transformation can also lead to external changes. As we work through the idea of what it means to live richly, we often experience transformation internally that leads to changes externally. This can be a positive experience, as it allows us to make choices that are best for us and to lead our own dance. We have the power to make decisions that align with our values and to create a life that is meaningful and fulfilling.

The dance of change is a complex one, and it is important to recognize that we have the power to lead it. Whether we are facing external changes or experiencing internal transformation, we can choose to embrace the changes and use them as an opportunity for growth. By taking the time to reflect on our values and make decisions that align with them, we can lead the dance of change and create a life that is rich and rewarding.

Choose your hard wisely.

When faced with difficult decisions, it is important to choose our “hard” wisely. We must take the time to reflect on our values and make decisions that honour them. While it may be tempting to take the easy way out, this will not lead to lasting transformation. Instead, we must choose the hard that will bring us closer to our goals and our values.

When making difficult decisions, it is important to seek out support from those who understand and honour our values. Having a support system can help us make decisions with clarity and courage, and can provide us with the strength to face the hard when it comes.

Ultimately, it is important to remember that hard choices are a part of life. We cannot avoid them, but we can choose to use them as an opportunity for growth and transformation. By taking the time to reflect on our values and make decisions that align with them, we can choose our hard wisely and create a life that is meaningful and rewarding.

Live fearlessly and authentically.

Living fearlessly and authentically is a concept that has been gaining traction in recent years. It is a reminder that we should strive to make decisions that are true to ourselves and our values, even if it means making difficult choices. This is something that Trefor, the guest on this podcast, has had to do. He has had to make the difficult decision to leave the podcast and follow his own path, even though it means leaving behind something he loves that has been meaningful to him.

Trefor’s story is a reminder that we should be willing to take risks and make hard choices in order to live our lives in a way that is true to our values. It is easy to be complacent and go with the flow, but it takes courage to make the hard decisions and follow our own path. We should be willing to take risks and make decisions that are true to our values, even if it means leaving something behind.

Living fearlessly and authentically also means being mindful of how our decisions affect others. Trefor was mindful of how his decision to leave the podcast would affect his friends, and he was thoughtful and discerning in how he navigated the situation. We should strive to be mindful of how our decisions affect others and take responsibility for our actions.

Living fearlessly and authentically is not easy, but it is worth it. It is a reminder that we should not be afraid to make hard choices that are true to our values and are mindful of how our decisions affect others. By living fearlessly and authentically, we can create a life that is meaningful and rewarding.

Embrace change for transformation.

The podcast discussed the transformation journey that Trefor took to figure out what his values were and how to live according to them. Trefor had to take a courageous step and make a decision that enriched him more, investing more time and energy in something that was true to his values. It was a difficult decision, but it was necessary for his transformation.

The podcast also discussed how change can be scary, especially when it is not initiated by us. It can be messy, and it can lead to a lot of emotions. But it is important to remember that change is an opportunity to grow and become our best selves. It is an invitation to explore something new and to learn to live richly in the midst of change.

The lesson that can be learned from Trefor’s journey is that we should embrace change for transformation. Change can be hard, but it can also be a catalyst for growth. It can help us to see the world differently and to find new opportunities that we may not have seen before. We should not be afraid to take risks and to make decisions that are true to our values. Change can be a source of strength and resilience, and it can help us to create a life that is meaningful and rewarding.

We should not be afraid to embrace change for transformation. Change can be scary, but it can also be a source of growth and transformation. We should take risks and make decisions that are true to our values. This will help us to create a life that is meaningful and rewarding.

Take the leap of faith.

“When I left the church world, I was filled with fear and uncertainty. I was a single dad with three kids, and I had no job. Everyone around me was telling me to get a job, but I had a feeling that I should do something else. I decided to take the leap of faith and launch my first coaching company. I was filled with anxiety and hesitation, but I knew that I could bring value to others. This was one of the best decisions I have ever made.” – Eric

Taking a leap of faith requires courage. We have to be willing to step out of our comfort zone and take risks. We have to be willing to take a chance, even if we don’t know what the outcome will be. We have to trust our instincts and make decisions that are true to our values.

When we take the leap of faith, we open ourselves up to growth and transformation. We create a life that is meaningful and rewarding. We learn to be courageous and trust our instincts. We learn to embrace change and take risks.

We have to remember that taking the leap of faith is not easy. It requires courage and trust in ourselves. We have to be willing to take risks and make decisions that are true to our values. We have to be willing to face our fears and embrace change for transformation. Taking the leap of faith can be scary, but it can also be a source of growth and transformation.

Follow your heart, not your fear.

When making significant changes in our lives, it is easy to become overwhelmed by the fear of what other people might think. We may worry about how our family and friends will react, or fear that we will be judged and ridiculed for our decisions. This fear of judgement can be paralyzing and can prevent us from taking the steps necessary to make the changes in our lives.

However, it is important to remember that we are the ones who have to live with the consequences of our decisions. We have to be willing to take risks and make decisions that are true to our values. We have to be willing to face our fears and embrace change for transformation. It is only when we are willing to take the leap of faith that we can truly be free to follow our hearts.

It is also important to remember that we are not alone in our journey. We can find support and encouragement from our friends and family, even if they do not necessarily agree with our decisions. We can also find support from our communities and from people who have gone through similar experiences. Having a strong support system can give us the strength and courage to take the leap of faith and follow our hearts.

Ultimately, it is important to remember that we have the power to make our own decisions and to follow our hearts. We should not be afraid of making changes in our lives or of taking risks. We should embrace change and use it as an opportunity for growth and transformation. We should remember to follow our hearts, not fear.

Embrace change fearlessly.

Fear is one of the biggest barriers to making changes in our lives. It can be paralyzing, preventing us from taking risks and making decisions that could potentially lead to a better future. Fear of the unknown, fear of failure, fear of losing control, fear of loss, and fear of what others may think can all be powerful forces in our lives, stopping us from making the changes we need to make in order to live a life we love.

It is important to recognize that we are not responsible for how others react to our decisions. We can care for them and have some level of concern for how our decisions will impact them, but we cannot let that stop us from following our hearts and doing what really matters to us. We are only responsible for our own actions and decisions, and we should not let fear keep us from making the changes we need to make.

We should use our values as our North Star, our compass, to guide us in making changes. Our values should be our primary focus when making decisions, not the fear of the unknown or of failure. We should embrace change and use it as an opportunity for growth and transformation. We should not be afraid of the unknown, but instead, use it as an opportunity to explore and discover new possibilities.

In order to live a life we love, we must embrace change fearlessly. We must recognize that we are in control of our own decisions and that fear should not be a deciding factor. We must use our values as our guide and be willing to take risks. We must recognize that transformation is not always pretty and that it may involve making difficult decisions. But ultimately, we must remember that we are capable of making our own decisions and that we should not let fear keep us from making the changes we need to make in order to live a life we love.

Express your feelings authentically.

One of the most important parts of embracing change is expressing our feelings authentically. We must be willing to recognize and accept our own emotions, no matter how uncomfortable they may be. We must learn to be honest about how we are feeling and to express ourselves in a healthy and constructive way.

When faced with change, it is important to remember to accept the situation and to process our feelings. We must be willing to acknowledge our anger, disappointment, confusion, frustration, and any other emotions that may arise. It is important to recognize that these emotions are normal and that they can provide valuable insight into how we are feeling. We must also understand that these emotions can be powerful and that it is important to express them in a healthy and constructive way.

It is also important to remember that we are not alone in our struggles. We must remember to lean on our friends and family for support and to allow them to help us process our feelings. We must also remember to practice compassion and to be understanding of the feelings of those around us. By recognizing and expressing our feelings authentically, we can create a safe and supportive environment for ourselves and for those around us.

Finally, we must remember to be courageous in expressing our feelings. We must be willing to take risks and put ourselves out there, even if it means being vulnerable. We must be willing to be honest about our feelings and to be authentic in our communication. By doing this, we can create a deeper connection with ourselves and with those around us.

Expressing our feelings authentically is an important part of embracing change and transformation. We must be willing to accept our emotions and to be honest about how we are feeling. We must also be courageous and vulnerable in our communication and practice compassion and understanding with those around us. By doing this, we can create a safe and supportive environment and can foster deeper connections with ourselves and with those around us.

Embrace change as an opportunity and not an obstacle.

When we are facing change, it is important to focus on what is within our control. We must remember that no one else can make us feel anything; our emotions are our own. It is up to us to take responsibility and focus on what we can do to improve our situation. This can be done by taking small steps and focusing on the present moment. We don’t need to have the entire journey mapped out; life is an adventure and it is important to embrace the mystery and surprise that it brings.

It is also important to have a support system when facing change. Having people that we can talk to and who can provide encouragement and understanding can be invaluable. We all need someone to lean on and to provide us with a listening ear and a shoulder to cry on. It is also important to remember that we are not alone; there are others out there who have gone through similar experiences and who can offer us advice and guidance.

Ultimately, we must learn to embrace change as an opportunity. By doing this, we can become more resilient and can grow and develop in ways that we never thought possible. We can also become more open to new experiences and can learn to appreciate the beauty of life. Change can be difficult and it can be scary, but it can also be a chance to start fresh and to create a life that is full of joy and fulfillment.

Live Fearlessly and Lovingly.

Living fearlessly and lovingly is not easy, but it is possible. It requires us to be brave and to take risks. We must be willing to step out of our comfort zone and look at life with an open mind. We must also be willing to take risks and trust that we can handle whatever comes our way.

When we live fearlessly and lovingly, we can find the courage to make changes that we never thought possible. We can take risks that can lead to greater opportunities and to a more fulfilling life. We can also be more open to new experiences and to learning new things. We can also be more open to the idea of change and to the idea of growth.

Living fearlessly and lovingly also means that we must be open to the idea of loss. Change can bring with it the idea of loss, and it is important to recognize that this is a natural part of life. We must be willing to accept the changes that come our way and use them as an opportunity for growth. We must also learn to appreciate the beauty of life and to recognize that even in times of loss, there is still beauty and joy to be found.

Finally, when we live fearlessly and lovingly, we can learn to appreciate the beauty of life and embrace change as an opportunity. We can also be more open to new experiences and to learning new things. We can also be more open to the idea of change and to the idea of growth. Ultimately, we must learn to trust that we can handle whatever comes our way and to live life to the fullest.

Episode 25 Transcript

Transcript: E25 – Embracing Change

Rob Where’s our attention going? Where’s our focus going? Where’s our, you know, where are we pouring our pouring our life into? And are these things the best things for us? Hi, and welcome to the Living Richly podcast. My name is Rob Dale, and I’m here with my great friends, Eric Deschamps and Trefor Munn-Venn, who is joining us by zoom. Tref, how you doing?

Trefo Hi, guys. I’m good. I’m good. How are you?

Rob It feels like you’re in some remote layer somewhere and just kind of hiding out. Is this the witness protection program?

Eric Does he have a layer now? Yeah, I like the layer. Yeah, the layer. I want a layer.

Rob Either that or it’s the witness protection program. That’s it. That’s it. Are you in witness protection? How is it in Kansas?

Trefor All good here, man. All good here.

Rob It is it is great. And of course, for those of you that are joining us listening to the audio on one of the audio platforms that we are part of, you probably are wondering what the heck we’re talking about. For those of you that are watching on YouTube, you can see that we are in a different studio with a bit of a different setup. And we’ve been making some changes to that. Lots of last number of number of meetings, and we want to talk about change today. And we want to look at the notion of as we continue to work through the idea of what it means to live richly, that we are going to be experiencing transformation internally. But also out of that trend internal transformation, there is often an external changes that happen. And that’s what we’re going to be kind of looking at today talking about.

Eric Yeah, it’s like the dance between external change and internal change, right? You just described the external changes that are the result of internal changes. So as one is transforming, one is evolving, we’re going to begin to make choices, things around us are going to begin to shift. I’m going to talk about that. Other times change happens to us things just externally show up and and we then have an opportunity to respond to that to either resist it or to accept what’s happening with us. And then we’re going to be able to continue to work with it as an opportunity to continue transforming and continue growing. So it’s gonna be interesting dialogue.

Rob Yeah, around the dance of change. Yeah. And so over the last number of episodes, for those of you that watched the episodes in sequence or listen to them in sequence, we’ve seen a couple of episodes ago, there was a there was an episode that it was just the two of us. And as we pointed out, Tref was off doing farm shit. That means but he was doing that and he was out, you know, I don’t know whatever farm shit is I better have a sense of what it is. But I think I’m gonna stop there because I’m just gonna get in trouble if I say any more than that. And then of course, last week was the greatest episode in the history of any episode of any podcast, right? As we celebrated Star Wars Day, right? Take that Joe Rogan. Yeah, yeah, exactly. He didn’t celebrate Star Wars. He didn’t know I maybe he did. I didn’t I didn’t look. But but we had that episode. And now we’re back into this environment, very different environment. And again, for those of you that are watching my video, you’re probably wondering where’s the farm. Now you’re seeing course, Trefor, and as you come in by zoom, and you are in that familiar spot in the in the farmhouse where we did the first 24 or 23 of the 24 episodes so far was recorded were recorded from there. But we’re talking about change and there has been some changes that have been going on and Tref maybe jump in and share a little bit about your own transformation and some of the changes that have been going on for you.

Trefor Yeah, for sure. For sure. Eric, I love how you framed it up front. It’s like sometimes just shit happens to us and changes imposed on us. And sometimes it’s, it’s it’s very much an internal thing. And that notion of the dance is a great way to describe it. Because, you know, if it’s coming externally, you’ve got to decide what you want to do about it. Right. And we do so many passive things, when it’s situations we don’t like, or things that aren’t aligned to what we want. But we get I think we live our richest life when we’re when we’re active in the dance. So we have a chance to lead our own dance, regardless of what’s happening, I think we get to lead where we’ve got the choice, we’ve got that option. The Rob, you’ve kind of queued it up. So let me start with the headline, which is I have made the very difficult, uncomfortable, soul racking decision to actually step out of living richly as a as a regular host.

Eric What? This is new breaking news happening live on the show right now. What the hell?

Trefor Everyone’s wondering why did I kick them off the farm? Let me tell you. No.

Eric You probably have a long list of reasons. Yeah. Yeah.

Trefor Farm animals and therapy. That’s right. That’s right. The No, Rob, no, you did not say that. That was bad. The, the, but I’ve made that made a very difficult decision to do that. So maybe I can I can use that as a little bit of a case as an example of walk through some of the pieces. No one’s more supportive of this initiative than I am. The I love this thing. You guys know this, we’ve had a lot of conversation about this. This is a good model. This is a good concept. This is a good show. We’ve had amazing feedback. We’ve been able to support people the way through. It continues to grow and there’s so much opportunity ahead. Like there’s so much opportunity. Yeah, we’ve already talked about how it right. We’re a little bit of a could you give me a hand with this. We’ve had conversations about retreats. Honestly, we’ve been talking about retreats for a very long time together, but it’s like, Oh, I think we found where it needs to play out. So like that’s there. There’s all kinds of things. I just know there’s got to be a book, if not a series of books coming out of this. The and I just know like I want the first audit to be in the book. And I think that’s been a great opportunity to talk about this. first autograph copy like it’s no one will be more more supportive of it. We’ll see if Steve’s available to autograph that available. If you’re willing to like, yeah, it’s okay, Rob, I’ve been practicing your autograph. For God’s sake. I know. But the sometimes we also though, we’ve got to look and say, what do I need to change? What do I need to change? And so yeah, we do have we have the farm and we’ve got a busy life and a full house and lots going on in our family as well. And there’s kind of a core question for me, which is where where is and we talked about this in one of the episodes, where is our attention going? Where’s our focus going? Where’s our, you know, where are we pouring our pouring our life into? And are these things the best things for us? And, you know, we’re we’re chatting a little bit before the show around. Sometimes that’s really easy, right? If it’s like, I don’t know, should I keep doing heroin? You kind of go, probably live richer without it. Like, you know, safe, safe bag. Maybe right. It’s some of those decisions are really easy. And I think as we as we start down this path to say, how do I craft my life in a way that is meeting mind, body, spirit, soul, my physical health, all of those things, my emotional state, are we touching on those? Some of the some of the decisions we need to make, I think are really easy, are really easy. But I think as we go on, they actually get harder. You know, I think I had a picture in my head, Eric. Yeah, I remember looking at the model early on that you put forward. I’m like, Okay, yeah, like you nail these things. And then like, you’re good. I’m like, Oh, yeah, no, that’s not. It’s not that. What happens is, I think we, we get challenged with more nuanced, more subtle questions and decisions and choices. And so this was one of them for me, which was a lot of thought, a lot of conversation. Not not easy. You got you guys know that we’ve had we’ve had a lot of conversation. And you guys have been nothing but full of grace and support and kindness as as we’ve looked to say, okay, we’ve got to what does this look like? And that goes back to our conversation as well. It’s like who’s in your life? Right? And will these people support you and work with you to say, I honor the choices you’re making might not be my choice. And that’s okay. But I can honor that. And we will find our way through that. And we will work through that. And it’s like that is a, as a rare and special thing. And it speaks volumes of you two guys and how important you are to me and the amount of support and I think really maturity of friendship that is played up, we can do the immature version of friendship extraordinarily well, where we like we got a big checkmark there. Yeah, we also have this other layer as well, which is in those moments where, where for all of us where we’ve gone through shifts in our lives and changes that have needed to be

Rob needed to happen to genuinely be able to show up for each other. Hell of a thing. Hell of a thing. Yeah. It really is. And it your it doesn’t come easy. It’s it doesn’t come in some ways not even in some ways, it’s natural to make that shift because we feel the pull towards what that change is. But as with with most things, right, the reason people don’t

Eric do it is because it’s hard. And and ultimately, we have to choose our hard. We have to choose our hard. Right. And I think you said it really well, Tref, the this is a nuanced, a much more nuanced decision as part of this journey. When we talk about in the model getting clear on what fills your cup, what enriches your life versus the what are the things that deplete you or you know, they are they are withdrawals from the bank account, so to speak, though it’s much easier to choose between a deposit and a withdrawal versus right, like something that enriches me or something that enriches me more or that enriches me most. And and so there’s this whole notion of the difference between good and bad or the difference between good, better and best. And as much as we hate to see you step down from the show, I know we’re going to have you come back as a guest whenever that makes sense for that to happen. We know that this is a decision that you’ve spent a lot of time thinking about and one that we fully support and certainly sent us on a new adventure of we say, well, now change has shown up on our doorstep. And what does that mean for us? What does that mean for the podcast? What does it mean for this movement of the Living Richly message? And we’re just excited to see where life is going to take you, Tref. And I know we’ll be staying very, very close in tune with what’s happening and looking forward to having you back on a regular basis as a guest on the show.

Trefor Well, as I said, I, you know, I am so supportive of this. I am part of this movement like this is right. This is important to me. And it’s been interesting because as we’ve gone through our own work and our own conversations as well, that’s actually helped me. Navigate my way through it. So, you know, ironically, the process of unpacking Living Richly helped me see that I needed to make some changes to to live more richly. And if that means and I think, you know, I think we all need to find that courage at some point to say, like, there’s loss in there. Like, there is there is loss here. The right to to be doing a great show with my best friends on stuff that really matters, which is like just exploding right now in terms of how people are responding to it. There’s only goodness in there. But but to also be willing to say, I’ve got to go where I’ve got to go. And we that’s such an internal sensing exercise. Right. That that has been, you know, probably one of the more courageous decisions that I’ve made in a long time around it to kind of go, you know, I do know what’s going to affect you guys. And that’s the other part is as we’re making choices that are going to have an impact on others that we care about very deeply. It again adds another layer of complexity. And I think thoughtfulness and discernment that we got, we have to try and bring to it and and work our way through. And it’s yeah, it’s a hell of a thing.

Rob It’s it is so interesting how we talk about this when we look at the model that the Living Richly model that we we base so much of what we talk about on the the notion of and you use the language of that our values are the compass. Yeah. And and I know that we’ve had that conversation. We’ve had it. The three of us, we’ve had it. The two of us. You know, yes, there was there was some grieving. There was some, you know, kind of that that initial thought of, oh, he’s leaving us. He’s a, you know, you work through that. And then your values take center stage and they become that compass that guides you and navigates through how you respond. And we’re going to take some time in a moment. We’re going to spend the rest of our time together today talking about how again, how change outward change, how it affects when we have to be the ones who initiate outward change, but also how we respond when outward change comes upon us in the midst of living richly, because there’s dynamics to both of those. But I just to echo, you know, I think it’s wonderful that this is episode twenty five. Right. It’s a kind of a money. You know, it’s a milestone, milestone episodes as our opportunity to just express how much we appreciate you appreciate all of the insights that you brought to the table here. And certainly for some of those that are listening or watching, if you want to reach out to Trefor, you can reach out to him. His email address is Trefor at he’s dead to me. And oh, sorry, did that slip out? Wait, I did slip out. Trefor, who? No, we’ll put we’ll put a link to certainly how you can reach out to Trefor in in the notes, but Trefor at Rhapsody strategies dot com is the easiest way. But you’re still around, as you said, we certainly are going to have you a part of things. Appreciate you so much. Go and do some farm shit and and know that we’re going to be thinking of you throughout this episode.

Trefor And as we record different ones today and over the next little while. Thanks, brothers. Thanks. Thanks to you both. Thanks to everybody.

Rob Keep going. Keep going. Right on, man. We plan to. Thanks for everything you’ve contributed to the show, my friend. You bet. All right. See you later. And yeah, so those are some of the changes. And you know, listen, in all seriousness, he’s dead to me.

Eric It what an interesting shift, though, for for for us as we began this journey now several months ago of starting the show out of this joint journey as friends, discovering what it means to live our best life. And I think come to a place in our lives where we’re not willing to settle for anything but the best in our lives. And it’s been said that we we do everything out of either love or fear. And I think, unfortunately, the vast majority, I look back on my life and so many things done out of fear, right? And so many things that I didn’t do or held back from or hesitated to do because I was afraid of loss, afraid of failure, afraid of how what other people might think, right? How I’d be perceived. And here we have this real life example of as we’re on this journey, each one of us figuring out what does living my richest life look like. And for Trefor, it leads to a decision to pursue something that enriches him more and investing more time and energy there. And again, takes courage to do that. And I have nothing but respect for him because I think honestly, folks on this journey, the reality is, as you said at the top of the show, when people commit to the transformation journey to figuring out one, what are their values? What do they value most when they they set out to figure out? What are the things that really enrich my life, right? When they use perhaps the four elements of nature that we’ve talked about to paint a picture of what does their best self look like and then begin to build rituals that support all of the above, things are going to start shifting. Things are going to start changing and they start changing internally. But to your point, then it leads to external changes like we’ve witnessed.

Rob Well, and it is scary and it is you do go through the mix of emotions. I know one of the first thoughts when Trefor first shared with us that he was going to be stepping away from living richly, it was. But so many of the comments, so many of the responses from people that are listening or watching the episodes talk about the dynamic of the three of us and how incredible it is and the way that we kind of bounce off each other and all of these interactions. And suddenly it was like, is it going to change? What’s that going to look like? And how is that going to change? And he was, you know, because he was leaving, he was choosing this that for us now all of a sudden we had to pick up those pieces. And so you have all that emotion and fear. And certainly, you know, there’ll be some that will be watching. Oh, wow. Look at the way of even that dynamic and having Trefor on. And we have this great conversation. Listen, we’re being genuine in how we’re trying to approach this. And then what we’re doing is we are training ourselves and learning how to live richly in the midst of change that for the two of us wasn’t initiated by us, but we were forced into responding to right out of the genuine concern or the genuine kind of where where one of our good friends, our closest friends was. And so it is messy. And so often when we get into that, and maybe you’re listening or watching our episode today and you are in that place where you’ve begun this journey, you’ve seen some of the internal transformation. And part of what you’re doing is as you transform internally, you’re externally you’re looking and going, why is everybody else changed? Right. And the reality is that as you’ve changed, suddenly you’re trying to you’re trying to fit into a square hole and you’re just not fitting right. And there’s suddenly there’s these need to work through stuff.

Eric And I guess I would start with as we talk and we begin to look at this, the lesson I think we’ve learned through all of this change, as well as other changes in our lives, is the importance of bringing back to getting back to that foundational piece of what do your values say to this? Absolutely. I mean, let’s let’s be fair. Anytime a significant change happens and and certainly when Tref first approached us with this, of course, there’s disappointment. Of course, there’s fear. Of course, there’s even he referred to grief and loss about where we’ve got something so special and now it’s going to shift. And and that caused all kinds of emotion for all of us. Right. And yet the we talk about in the episode, the best episode we’ve ever recorded to date, which is the Star Wars episode. And the hero’s journey. But in the hero’s journey model, right, there’s that invitation, the invitation to step into something beyond what you’re used to and often change is that invitation. Right. Do you see it as an opportunity or do you see it as an obstacle? Do you work with it? Do you respond to it or do you resist and fight it? And then if you choose to to participate, if you choose to say, OK, this is not what I anticipate, it’s not what I expected. There’s a lot of uncertainty around this because I’m moving from the comfort of what I know to the discomfort of what I don’t know. And, you know, there’s a saying, you know, the old saying, a better the devil I know than the one I don’t. It’s still a devil. But we want to hang on to it because at least we understand it. It’s it’s it’s a place of comfort. But as we accept that invitation to depart to the departure, when we return and we’ve done that work, I think that’s what you’re referring to. What you say all of a sudden, we’re looking around and we’re saying, why is everyone changed? Like, why does it feel different? What actually the reality is they may not have changed much if at all. What’s changed is your internal position. You’ve you’ve fundamentally returned, but you’ve been transformed. And so you see things differently, you experience things differently, you interpret the world differently. And that may mean that in some cases, certain things that were part of your life before no longer fit or that there is a like in Trefor’s case, there’s there’s something that’s calling you more. There’s something that is is needing more of your time and attention that you need to devote yourself to. And again, it takes courage to pursue that.

Rob And it often we can look at our past experiences and lean on some of the lessons that we either learn through that or what we learn. What to do and what not to do based on how we responded in past when there were significant changes or things that went on. And so I want us to talk about in a moment, we’re not going to go there yet, but I want us to talk about the idea of of, you know, what are some things that we can do to help us navigate as change comes in whatever form that is. But maybe let’s start with because this isn’t the first time either one of us has experienced incredible change because of something that was happening internally in both our cases. You know, we were two ex preachers and a farmer. Now we’re just two ex preachers, which is unfortunately, you know, throw a stick into a room full of people and you’re probably going to hit an ex preacher at some point. Is that a thing really? Is there that many ex preachers? There’s quite a few of them. I once heard a stat that said 80 percent of people that enter into ministry don’t retire out of ministry. I don’t know if that’s true, but certainly my experience looking around. But anyway, I digress. We we we both went through that experience. Maybe talk a little bit about that shift for you.

Eric And I’m happy to share a little bit my experience and how that ties into what we’ve learned that we’re even applying today. Well, I think I think back in as we were preparing for this episode, I think of a time of significant change is when I had left the church world. This is going back several years now. I had gone to work for a company immediately out of the church world and that hadn’t worked out. That had been a very difficult experience. And now I was in a position where my marriage was falling apart. I had fallen apart. My my ex had announced that she was she wanted to leave, that things were over. And I was living in tremendous fear, fear of fear of the unknown. I didn’t know how I was going to provide now as a single dad, provide for my my three kids. And I was out of a job. The company had literally just dissolved. And now I was without any income. So there was fear around that. There was there was the unknown of what will people think of me? Because here, you know, the ex preacher who is supposed to have all his shit together. And I mean, you and I can both attest to the concept of living in a fishbowl and the pressure that that would put on us to show up. A certain way and seem like we always have it together. So there’s tremendous fear on so many fronts. And it was out of that that context that I launched my first coaching company back in 2011. And I still recall everybody around me. There wasn’t a soul around me that didn’t say, what are you doing? Go get a job. Right. Like you you’ve got enough going on. You’ve got enough pressure and you’ve got to, you know, you’ve got three kids to take care of. You’re going through all this change. Why don’t you just go do the same thing? Go get a job. And I remember hearing that advice and thinking that’s actually pretty sound advice. It doesn’t. And I put some resume together. I hadn’t put a resume together in, I don’t know, 30 years. Actually, I don’t think I ever put a resume. I think that might have been the first time. And I applied to, you know, started looking and applied and got three interviews, like within about a week or two. And I remember sitting down with each of those business owners. And as I sat there, I’d get excited because I thought I could do this. I think I could really do that. I could bring value here. But it was only what I didn’t realize at the time is the value I thought I could bring was to help them but not work for them. And that’s where the coaching thing finally kicked in. But there was tremendous hesitation there, tremendous fear. And actually, when I look back at that time period, even though I had the courage, I’m grateful that I had the courage to follow my heart and launch into coaching, something that has been probably one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. And now going on actually this month as we record this episode, celebrating now 12 years since I made that decision. And I know looking back, I mean, it is truly what I believe my calling is now. But I truly lived in a fight or flight response for a very, very long time. And so I think whenever we’re invited to take a step, I think fear is a natural byproduct of that because we’re stepping out again of what we’re comfortable in, what we know, what we understand, and we’re being asked to take steps. And it’s not all mapped out. It’s not all you might have. You might see the next two or three steps and that’s it.

Rob And are we willing to take that chance and take that risk? It really is. Again, chance and risk are great words to use when you take that leap. It is a leap of faith to get to where you’re at. And like you, I mean, when we, in both of us, so when I left the church world and was kind of, I left the church world and my marriage ended at the exact same time and I was completely lost. I didn’t have anybody saying to me, what are you doing about the notion of going into coaching or doing any of that stuff? Because I didn’t have anybody talking. I was silent. I had you and I remember reaching out to you and we weren’t that close at the time. We were part of the same denomination. We knew each other. I stepped in and was pastoring the church that you had founded. So we knew of each other quite well, but weren’t connected. And sitting down with you completely lost, kind of going, I have no clue what to do. I have no skills outside of church skills and my entire worldview. Everything was gone and in that place of absolute fear. And you, of course, with the famous question, right? Have you ever thought of coaching? Right. Exactly. In which I looked at you like, what the hell? And I remember what the hell do I know about coaching until we started to walk through what what really is what we do, what we did in ministry was was that. But in those early days, I mean, I was literally living off of a line of credit. I had zero income and had zero savings. I had nothing. And I was living off a line of credit in order to get the coaching work going and started. Absolutely terrifying, absolutely incredible. People can look back and go again for whatever, however they view it, depending on who you are and how you view that. Some view it as very cowardice that I left that world. Others view it as very courageous. I’m OK with either because I don’t worry about over the course of time. I’ve not no longer worried about what they’re thinking at the time, though, as you start making that change. I was absolutely like everyone is taught. All I was consumed with was the opinions of others in the midst of this, which was so negative.

Eric So huge. The opinion of other people, let’s face it. When you think even of friends and family, take friends and family that you know, support you and care for you and love you. Often when you announce a change, you got to be careful who you talk to in the early stages of considering a significant change or making a significant shift in your life. Again, part of that, those shifts will come naturally as you evolve. Staying in your comfort zone will become more and more uncomfortable. I remember talking to one fellow, works for the federal government, great guy, and yet he hates his job. He really hates his job. But he’s like, I’m only 15 years away from retirement and a pension. And I thought, man, that’s going to be the longest 15 years of your life, right? Because you’re investing in something you you’re not energized by. It doesn’t fire you up. You don’t love what you do. And I get that sometimes we’re going to be in seasons where we not everything is lining up the way we want it to. But it was this fear of loss of this financial right security in the future that kept him in this place. And I think when when we’re wanting to make significant changes, especially where they have to do with a career or a shift, a significant shift that’s going to impact other people, I think fear and what people think really come into play. And I’ll often tell people in the early stages of a growing vision, you’re getting this growing vision of a. New direction of a new endeavor of a new risk that you want to take a new project you want to start a new job you want to start or a new career. Family and friends often can be quite discouraging, and it’s it’s because they they care for us and their first response is to want to protect us. But they will often, hey, are you sure you want to be played safe? And what about the kids and what about your income and what about your bills? And and they do that out of, I think, the best possible place again, a place of caring. But one has to really get clear that we’re going to face the fear of what do people think or what will they think? And at the end of the day, we have to, I think, really get crystal clear on what really matters is following my heart. Because if I if I live a life as a hostage to other people’s opinion, I will never reach my full potential. I think a lot of folks are stuck in mediocrity. They’re stuck in ho hum. They’re they’re they’re lost in their everyday life. Just again, we talked about this on Groundhog Day repeating the same day over and over again, calling it a life because at least that’s safe and that’s predictable. But then they describe boredom. They talk about no sense of purpose, talk about not really having any real drive. You’re going to find that drive. You’re going to find that mojo out there following your heart and pursuing what’s.

Rob Yeah. And of course, right now we’re talking about the kind of the part of this change where when typically when as we’re transforming, we’re initiating change in a moment. We’ll talk about when change comes to us and some of the principles and things we can learn about that. But when we’re initiating change to recognize that that change may not be celebrated by the people closest to you, I do believe that it is this is why community is so important. It is important to have people in our corner that can help guide us with that. But when we don’t and I didn’t in those early days, now I’m not suggesting that my early change of leaving ministry and going into coaching while there was some real value stuff that I was working through. I didn’t have the language that I have today, nor did I even have the behaviors that I have today. At that time, this is where the transformation happens. But when we’re the ones that are initiating that transformation, that change, we do recognize it has this is why the model that you created is so powerful. We need to lean on that model. And so even when everyone around you is saying one thing, the first place we need to go to before we initiate before we kind of pull the trigger on that change is internally to our values. And get true on that, get clear on that. Let that be the North Star, the compass, whatever language you want to use that guides that and then directs it. And then I think once we say, no, this change needs to happen that I’m initiating, the second thing, the second principle that I would certainly suggest is important is the notion that you you need to understand and appreciate. I’m not responsible for how you react to the decision that I make. Right. Right. And that’s such an easy we talk about that.

Eric You have a great kind of phrase around this around that notion of how we we get so consumed with how the other person is going to react rather than ourselves. Right. We talk about the difference between being responsible to someone versus being responsible for someone. Language that’s come to me more recently is I can care for you and care about and I should care, obviously have some level of care about how my decision is going to be impacting you. But I can’t let that keep me from from following my heart and doing what really, really matters to me. But I got to be careful that I don’t start trying to take care of you. Yes, I can care for you, but you’ve got to take care of yourself. The the only people that we are responsible for or that we that we need to take care of our children under our care under the age of 18 years old. Right. Because after that, they’re grown adults and they need to be responsible for themselves and take care of themselves as we support them in a difficult situation. In a different way. But I think this is again, this notion of this, you know, what’s coming to me so strongly because I think there’s some people listening today that really, really need to hear this. Why do we not embrace change? Why do we resist it? Why do we fight it? Why do we respond so uncomfortably to it so often is because of the fear of the unknown. We don’t know where we’re going. There’s the fear of failure. What if I fall flat on my face? Well, that is a risk. Right. Fear of losing control. There’s the fear of loss or the fear of grief, the fear of again, what will people think about me? And just think of how powerful those forces can be in your life and have been. I again, I can think of how many times they’ve they’ve they’ve held me back. I don’t want to live a life that is bound by fear. I want to follow my heart and do what I love. I want to I want to have that drive, that passion, that energy that comes from a life well lived, not a life well preserved and protected and guarded. Right. And I think fear does that. Fear builds walls. Fear. We build walls to protect ourselves, but those very walls become our prison.

Rob And I think when we talk about embracing change is is is again, bracing that adventure, embracing the unknown and embracing the the the knowledge of going on an adventure and responding to the invitation, departing, knowing that we’re going to return transformed. We speak so much around authenticity and showing up as the true authentic self. It is it is impossible to truly show up in authenticity as your authentic self if you are focused on the reaction that the other person is going to have or the situation may cause. Now, again, for us to be clear, we’re not suggesting to anyone that they should make radical changes in their life. That’s up to each individual to determine as to what that is. There may be as you continue to transform and this is where it does get muddy and messy and and and ugly and all of that stuff. It transformation is not in any situation. It’s not a pretty process. Right. It does. There’s there’s a lot of mess that happens in transformation. Right. Part of that mess can be there may be a trend like there may be changes to relationships. There may be people that you choose that you have to now manage the role that they have in your life, if any. And having that choice, I somebody very close to me the other day, I had a conversation and having to manage for them, they had to make a choice that another individual, they just needed. And I listened to them have a conversation, say, I need to not I’m making a choice that the relationship I have with you is going to be this. And nothing more than that. And that has to be I’m sorry that that hurts you. I’m sorry that that right. But I have to do that to be true to who I am. I think that’s such it’s that’s courageous showing up as your authentic. We just talked about that in an episode recently on why this matters.

Eric That notion of courageous people are the people who make the hard choices to be authentic. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, we again, going back to when Tref first approached us with the changes or with his decision, I mean, there was all kinds of feelings going on. There was right. There was disappointment. There was some anger in there. How could you do this? This is so important. There was confusion. There was frustration, all kinds of stuff going on. But to be able to, you know, and we talked about this on the on the episode on on uncertainty not long ago, that there’s going to be all kinds of things that show up. You don’t have the answer for when change is happening to you or you’re engaged in transforming. There’s going to be some things that have big question marks beside them. And that may be that way for some time till you sort it out. But when you’ve gotten clear on who how you want to show up in the world, I remember it wasn’t long. And I was really into that process in those conversations with Trefor. I went back to my values and I’m saying, OK, what does courage look like here? What does compassion look like here? What does curiosity? What does connection look like here? I’ve already decided that’s the kind of person that’s how I want to show up in the world. Well, now that’s being put to the test, right, in a friendship that where we that we value deeply on a project, a passion project that we care about deeply and saying, OK, here’s where the rubber meets the road, right? Like this is here’s where it really matters to say, how do we define ourselves more and more while remaining in community, while remaining connected? And I think that’s what a big part of that transformation is about.

Rob Yeah. So I love the segue there because you’ve made the shift into when change happens to us, what are some strategies and some ideas that we can kind of implement that are important for us to remember? And I I would say right at the top of that list, the very first thing is accept what is happening right now, that is that to recognize and just and so often we we fight against our immediate reaction to change to us. When someone else initiates the change is to push back and to fight it. And and one of the things that I’ve learned and we certainly this was the notion when Trefor first came to us and shared about where he was in life. And I remember my first reaction wasn’t to push. No, no, no, you don’t want to do it. It was OK. This is where this is happening. Now, let me process. Now, it may be that your response is to go deeper and understand and to find out and to, you know, to inquire and to learn more.

Eric But that first response needs to be the idea of accepting that this is the true state right now. Absolutely. I mean, it one of. When I’ve talked about my Jedi spiritual sort of practices, I refer to the word grammar to to sum them up and without going through all of them, the first a in the word grammar is acceptance, learning to be more accepting. And by accepting doesn’t mean you just lie down in front of it, but rather than fight it, rather than resist it, this is what’s happening right now. Yeah. And I’m doing the best I can. That’s acceptance. Right. And I think a big part of acceptance is, especially when change comes your way that you that that at first does not you’re not too happy about, right, is accepting the whole range of emotions that are going to show up, including anger. For me, anger is a tough one because I was taught from a little kid taught in the church world. Anger is bad. So any expression of anger, you know, I’m being bad. And what I’ve learned is no, no, anger is a healthy emotion to process. So being accepting of those emotions and working them through and acknowledging them from what they are, as opposed to just trying to bluff your way through it or fake your way through it.

Rob I think authenticity, vulnerability, just being real with how you’re feeling is a big way or a great way to navigate through that stuff and to acknowledge those feelings and to express those feelings. And that that’s a vulnerable state. I remember I was having a conversation recently with Dr. Sherry. We’ve mentioned Sherry a number of times very much has influenced the transformation that each of us has gone through. Certainly we’re planning to have her as a guest. We’re just trying to line up the timing around that, but we’re hoping to have her on the show at some point. And she asked me about the feelings that I was having and how I express them. And I and it reminded me the very first conversation or not first conversation, but one of the conversations with Trefor when he we were talking this through. I remember the and I felt proud of myself and I even use that language with Sherry. I said, I felt proud of myself because I was able to say to Trefor, I’m hurt right now. And and there was no there was no that was not a condemnation on him. That wasn’t a that wasn’t for him to do anything with. It was it had nothing to do with him, actually.

Eric It was me vocalizing and acknowledging an emotion that I was experiencing, which allowed me then to be able to process and to work through the change that was happening. Right. I remember not long ago, I was very frustrated about a number of things. And Kate encouraged me to I’ve got a quite a great gym set up in my in my basement. And part of that is a big punching bag. And and so I decided to go in and do some therapy on the bag. And what was what was really funny is I let my emotions, I just let myself feel them. And I let myself express them. And I’m glad nobody was in the house when I had that round of the bag, because I was just letting what I was thinking, what was inside of me come out. And what was really funny is not only did I break the bag in that session, but I also my my Apple watch celebrated the fact that I burned more calories in that session than I’d ever done before. But this whole thing about the expression of emotion, sometimes those negative emotions get blasted at someone. That’s not what we’re suggesting. I think honesty and and and authenticity and transparency is important. But I think when you’re dealing with a lot of negative emotion, you need to find another outlet to try to navigate the tough stuff so that you can then approach things in a more calm.

Rob Well, and to that point, because listen, we say it, we’ve said it on this on this podcast, a different episodes. No one else can make you feel anything. Right. So when I expressed I’m hurt, that wasn’t a you’ve hurt. You’ve made me feel hurt or you’ve no, no, I that’s a that’s my emotion. I own that emotion. And so you’re right. All of these emotions. It’s an outlet for us to have to be able to do that. This goes into the next kind of one of the other suggested steps and probably one of my favorite and mindset. And it’s one that I’ve embraced. I use it with my clients all the time. I use it. Wendy will tell you sometimes she’s like, you know, kind of wants to smack me because I’ll bring it up in just about every situation. I talk about with my kids and that is, are you focusing on the things within your control or the things outside of your control? And the more we put our energy and we see this, everything to do with mindset is about what is within my control. And I probably ask this question at least once a week to myself, if not more often. And that is when I’m whatever I’m dealing with, is this what’s within my control? And I put my energy, my focus on the things that are within my control.

Eric Right. It’s huge. The other is to take small steps when when you’re facing change. Again, we talked about it in previous episodes. There’s this swing for the fences type approach that I was famous for. I mean, it’s like everything that I do, I had to do it one hundred and ten percent. And I still fall into that from time to time. Right. It’s still a pattern of behavior that is easy for me. But what I’m really coming to appreciate is little by little, slowly by slowly. I don’t need to figure all of this out right now. I need to see what the next step is, determine that again, using my values and the work that I’ve done to define who I am as an individual, how I want to show up in the world. What does that look like today? One day at a time. And sometimes it’s what does it look like right now in this moment? One moment at a time. We’re so wanting to have the entire journey mapped out for us, but that’s just not how it is. And it wouldn’t be an adventure if it was right. It would I think it would be quite, I don’t know, a little it would be lacking that that that sense of mystery and surprise that I think life is so phenomenal at.

Rob But taking small steps, focusing on small steps one day at a time, one moment at a time can make such a difference. It’s so incredible. You’re absolutely right. Those small steps are so important. I again, the support I mentioned already about having a conversation with with Dr. Sherry, having those people you you and I certainly we communicate a lot. We’ve been a support to each other through this change. We’re support to each other through a number of different changes over the course of our lives. We’ve seen that having that external support.

Eric This is why community matters and why it’s so important that we find our community, whomever that might whoever that might be to be able to embrace those people that can bring us that support in the midst of change. Absolutely. And ultimately to to to to begin to embrace change as an opportunity as opposed to an obstacle. Right. We’re excited about living richly and where it’s going. We’re in a new studio today, not a new producer. We’re sticking with the one we have because it’s pretty damn good. Steve, right? Steve is his name. I think Steve’s here today. We needed to give him a shout out. Steve’s been phenomenal in helping us also navigate this shift. We’re excited about the opportunity, the upcoming guests that we’re going to have on the show and where this is going, that ultimately what may have seemed like an obstacle at first, we know is an opportunity for Tref and his family and we celebrate that and we celebrate the opportunity provides us and we want to encourage you that are watching. If you’re sitting on the precipice of a massive change to not let fear hold you back, let love drive the way for you and pave the way for you to to not hold back because of the fear of the unknown or the fear of loss or the fear of what people will think.

Rob You’ve got to follow your heart. And that’s certainly what we’re going to be doing with the podcast. Absolutely. And that notion. And I remember saying again in my conversation with Sherry, I said, I said it’s interesting because as much as I’m grieving the loss of what was, I am excited and celebrating the opportunity that lies ahead and the potential that is there. And the just the listen, if there is not change happening, you’re probably dead. Right. Because every organ living organism is seeing change, right? There is always change happening. Change is good. Change for the sake of change isn’t necessarily good, but change means that there is motion. And so there is opportunity and we are so excited for that. And we do want to encourage you to to certainly stay a part of what we’re doing here at Living Richly. If you listen or watch these episodes in sequence, you are not going to want to miss next week’s episode. We are so excited. So many times we have talked about the book Lovable on our in different episodes. And we have the author, Kelly Flanagan, who’s going to be joining us in our next episode. And that is going to be just something that we’re really, really pumped about in order for you not to miss any of these episodes and all of the things that we’re going to be doing and the guests that we’re going to have. I want to encourage you to make sure that you subscribe to our podcast on whatever whatever mechanism you’re listening to it or watching it. Subscribe to that, like it, perhaps even share it out and invite others to to tune in and to be part of that.

Eric It certainly supports us, helps us and it makes sure that you don’t miss any of the upcoming episodes. We also encourage you to go to our website, Living Richly dot me slash act a C.T. On that page, you will find pointers to all the recent episodes and show notes. And so you can just find all those resources whenever we mention a resource, we’re going to include it in the show notes for you so that you can follow up on it. We also have some support mechanisms that are coming into play, like coaching and group coaching experiences. And we’re beginning to explore the whole notion of retreats and because we’re getting a lot of feedback from listeners who are saying, I need some support on this journey. This message is firing me up, but I could use some help. And so you’re going to find news about that there. And you can also sign up for our newsletter.

Rob If you are listening to us this far in and you haven’t turned this off, even as we wrap this up, that means you are an absolute fan of the show. I invite you, if you’re creative, why don’t you leave a comment? We’ve been talking how right from the beginning, it’s two ex preachers and a farmer. Well, we’re not using that anymore. And I don’t know, two ex preachers just doesn’t have the same ring to it. Maybe you’ve got a real creative little line that we can use to describe the show, knowing some of you that might know Eric and I. So I invite you to add a comment around that. We’d love to hear from you. But on behalf of Eric, I want to thank you so much for tuning in, for listening to our podcast each and every week. And until next time, just encourage you to live your best life.