Embracing Boundaries, Finding Freedom

Embracing Boundaries, Finding Freedom

Eric Deschamps:

Are you ready to discover how establishing healthy boundaries can set you free and create a path to living your best life? That’s up next.

Rob Dale:

Hi, and welcome to the Living Richly podcast. We’re talking boundaries today. If you were with us last week, we were talking about saying no, and in a way, this really flows out of that conversation, but in many ways, it’s also very different. We’re going to be looking at the kind of boundaries that we need to set for ourselves to establish in all kinds of different places, and we’re real excited to be able to dive into that. It’s so good to be with all of you guys again today. And show of hands, who struggles sometimes with setting boundaries?

Eric Deschamps:

Not me, but I’ve read about it. I’ve read a lot of articles about it. Apparently, it’s a real problem for people.

Rob Dale:

It is. Well, what have you read? Tell me about what you read and maybe make it personal right out of the gate.

Eric Deschamps:

No, let’s face it. Boundaries are a natural part of the universe. When you think about it, nations have boundaries, cities have boundaries. Your house and the property that your house sits on has a boundary. It defines where one thing starts or one thing ends and another one starts. And when we think of that in relation to actually setting boundaries in our lives, the reason it’s necessary is often we can’t tell where one thing ends and another thing starts, and we kind of get lost in the shuffle.

Rob Dale:

Yeah. What about for you guys? What comes to mind when you first hear that phrase setting boundaries?

Kate Beere:

For me, it’s like empowering now, but it’s taken me a long time to get there. It doesn’t mean I’ve mastered the art of setting boundaries, because I haven’t. But it’s easier for me now. For me, that’s a healthy thing. It’s like going to the gym. For me, setting a boundary for me now is giving myself permission for whatever is needed. So for me, I see it in a positive way now.

Wendy Dodds:

Yeah. For me, it used to relate to boundaries, used to mean guilt and barriers, and now it’s more about self worth and self love.

Rob Dale:

Yeah. It’s like, again, going back, we’re all talking similar language here, shifting the thinking that boundaries are a negative. I’m setting boundaries because I need to say the no. I need to keep you out or I need to protect to boundaries. Being a positive is by having boundaries in my life, I can thrive, I can live more freely because I know exactly where I’m going within those boundaries.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. I think of how long I lived as a slave to the other people’s expectations. All right. We talked about people pleasing so much in the last episode and living my entire life trying to make other people happy while I was miserable on the inside. And if I had been given $100 for each time people throughout my career said, Eric, you need to slow the fuck down. You need to get a hobby. You’re going to burn yourself out. Well, three burnouts later, I finally start to wake up to something’s terribly wrong here. As a chronic overperformer or recovering overperformer, I wish I would have learned the importance of setting boundaries much earlier in life, and it’s something that’s certainly come to me later in life.

Kate Beere:

Yeah, I think boundaries are like another tool in your toolkit, right, to help you sort of we talked about this a little bit, too, in the last episode, but on filling your cup. So boundaries allow you to fill your own cup. I think we think about boundaries as these big walls, and it’s not. It’s just creating a safe space for yourself, to nurture yourself so that you can then give back. So boundaries to me are like I just see them in such a positive.

Eric Deschamps:

Light now, and yet they’re not experienced like that by many people. Right? Especially if you haven’t had them and you have lived your life according to the shoulds, musts, and have tos. And people are used to you showing up in a very accommodating, people pleasing kind of way. As soon as you start to push back, and I say the word push back, it feels like you’re pushing back. And all you’re doing is actually finding yourself in all of the noise and finally saying, this is not for me, but let’s face it, boundaries. For a lot of people, you use the words, and it does have a very negative connotation.

Rob Dale:

You tied into work here. It’s interesting. When I think of boundaries, I sometimes will think of even a river flowing the banks of a river, right, without the banks of a river. If a river overflows the banks, the force of it, the focus of it, the movement of it all slows, it all lessens, right? It is not as powerful an entity. When it’s overflowed the banks, it becomes a lake. It becomes or a swamp. Or swamp. Swamp is probably a better word for that. But those river banks keep you. And so when we have these boundaries in our lives, it keeps you focused and it keeps you moving in the right direction. I had a guy long time ago, I was probably 1516 years old at that point in time, the whole world was black and white.

Eric Deschamps:

Isn’t it, though?

Rob Dale:

Or is it shade degrade? It was just black and white TV.

Wendy Dodds:

No boundaries there.

Rob Dale:

And he used to talk about he used the analogy of the racehorse with the blinders on, and this was a spiritual guy, and that would be his prayer at times. His prayer was, God help me to put the blinders on from all the distractions so that I can stay focused on where I’m going in the direction I want to go.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah, that’s a great illustration because there is so much noise, there is so much. I think years ago it was three M, the makers of the postit note, inventors of the postit note, who wrote that the average at the time it’s probably far worse now, but at the time that the average person is exposed to like 3500 advertising messages every single day. And I would have to think that that has skyrocketed. And so our attention is being pulled away from us and often pulled away on things that are meaningful and things that are important to us, like family and work and career and Hobies and the rest of it. But if we don’t figure out how to create blinders, if we don’t create how to filter out the noise, no wonder we feel like you talk to the average person. I saw a study that was done January of 2022 by HR Reporter magazine that at the time was reporting that one out of three Canadians is burnt out, currently burnt out. We’re reporting burnouts one out of three. That means in this group, one of us is burnt out. At least probably you. No, I’m good. I’ve had three.

Kate Beere:

I’ve had three.

Wendy Dodds:

I’ve had myself.

Rob Dale:

Wendy’s, the champion.

Wendy Dodds:

Gold medal.

Eric Deschamps:

Go team. Right?

Rob Dale:

You’re right. So maybe let’s talk about the challenge of the challenge of setting boundaries in different kind of parts of our lives. In a way, I’m going to compartment, even though all of this is it all flows into each other to compartmentalize a little bit of this into maybe some work, some of the boundaries that we have to figure out and establish with work, some of the boundaries we need to figure out with family and those close relationships. And then boundaries that we need to set that really have to define ourselves as well, because I think it’s important to put those boundaries in place. We debated this as to is this a subtopic of last week’s about people pleasing? And I think the reason why we decided to do this as a completely separate episode is it is too big. People pleasing is an element of we need to set boundaries when it comes to how we say no.

Eric Deschamps:

Right?

Rob Dale:

But that’s just one piece of boundaries. There’s so much more to that. So let’s talk about it in the context of some of these different roles that we play. And maybe let’s start with the one that is probably the most difficult, and that is the family relationships. What are some of the challenges that the three of you have experienced when it comes to setting boundaries in those closest relationships? And then what are some of the rewards and the benefits of doing it?

Eric Deschamps:

Is it bad when you say what are some of your challenges? The first word that came to my head, relatives.

Wendy Dodds:

But it’s true, right? It’s so true. And just hearing you say that, I could already feel my stomach start to turn a little bit. And it’s not from nerves talking. It’s the boundaries of family, certain friends, where you or I have had to be very deliberate and intentional about where my energy goes. So your energy flows where your energy goes. And we all have people in our lives where you could spend a week with some people, you could spend a day with some people, you could spend an hour with some people, and some.

Eric Deschamps:

People, when you see a text come in from them, you just don’t want to respond at all.

Kate Beere:

You don’t. And I think what helps you sometimes get to the boundary is ask yourself, what are you comfortable with? Right? How much time do I want to spend with this person? And then commit to what that looks like for you. And then it almost gives you a bit of permission to set the boundary, right? To say, like, you’re not telling them necessarily, I only want to see you twice a year. We’re not communicating that that’s an internal tool. But if you do that to yourself, it almost gives yourself permission so that, no, I set that boundary. Okay, I’m committed to twice a year, or whatever that is. I find that it sometimes helps a little bit.

Eric Deschamps:

Absolutely. And yet as soon as you say that, I think immediately of the backlash or sort of the response that seems really selfish, that seems really self centered. You’re deciding, right. And yet we’ve been shifting the language. It’s not about being selfish. It’s about putting yourself first, putting your own oxygen mask first, and coming to a place in your life where you recognize and realize that I no longer have space for things. And people in my life, perhaps, that don’t serve me well or that are toxic to me, or that when I’m around them, it’s not a good thing. And I get that that’s difficult place to come to. And this is where it’s kind of easier with friends because they’re not related to you. But let’s face it a lot like, think of the people we talked a lot about on the show, about your first formation and your family of origin and how you can leave home. At some point, we all leave home, but home follows us around. Those dynamics follow us around, and it’s amazing. I know for me, in certain contexts, work context, certain relational contexts, I can feel like myself. I can feel very comfortable, very much at ease. And then certain person walks in the room or I’m in their presence, and everything begins to shift. Right.

Rob Dale:

It really is a challenge. You did something a number of months ago now that was so impressive to me. I so respected and admired you might.

Wendy Dodds:

Have to edit this out. I don’t know what’s about to come.

Eric Deschamps:

Anything can be fixed in post production.

Rob Dale:

I so respected and admitted to. I just really admired you on this. And now we’re talking about something I tried to pretend there that there was an edit there was a cut. That was a dad joke I didn’t really want. Thank you both back to me being clever. And you had a conversation with someone and the conversation was around the amount of interaction that you were having with them. And I was so impressed, as I was hearing you say to the individual, I’ve had to set boundaries around the amount of time that we spend together and the context of what those conversations are. And that’s just simply the season that I’m in right now. I’m not saying that’s going to be the way it is forever, but that’s the season I’m in right now. I know that might upset you. I know that might bother you. I need to do this for my own well being and it’s a choice I’ve made. And to hear you have that conversation again, hearing your side of that conversation as you chatted with the person, I was so impressed because so few people are willing to state it that clearly in this case. It needed to be stated that clearly, but to state that clearly. And now the way that that relationship is being, the development of it is you’re starting to see it really start to play out in a much different way because you were willing to make that statement. And I think that’s such a healthy thing for us to get to in relationship.

Wendy Dodds:

I will give some context, though, around that because I remember that conversation and it was really fucking hard. It was really hard and my voice was shaking. And we all know just that feeling of and I think that’s why so many people don’t set boundaries is again, because it’s hard. But I think it’s been very eye opening in certain aspects in my life when I really start to take a look at if people are upset with the boundaries that you are placing, that is validation that the boundary needs to be there to begin with.

Eric Deschamps:

Right? Yeah, right. And I think it’s normal where there hasn’t been a boundary and then you set one and have to set one for all kinds of reasons, and we’ll explore that, but for a valid reason, you establish a boundary. I think it’s normal even for your people at first to be like, what’s this about? Because again, why exactly you have fundamentally changed the dance. And when you fundamentally change the dance, as any one of us begins to change how we show up in the world, the people closest to us don’t quite understand that they’re not inside my head, thank God. They’re not in my head or my heart.

Rob Dale:

No, seriously. Thank God.

Eric Deschamps:

You don’t know the half of it. But we often think, well, they should understand. Well, part of our job, and I think establishing boundaries is to communicate as best we can why we’re doing it not as a justification, but as an explanation. I mean, just in the world of change management in the world of business. We’ll say to people, listen, you can’t just implement change even if it’s the right thing to do at the right time. You better explain what you’re doing because you’re changing the game. And I think sometimes we have some work to do there. What do you guys think about that?

Rob Dale:

Yeah, I think it’s absolutely I think that is the critical way to do it. Now, the other thing you can do is just have a family like mine. We don’t talk and we’re not close. I don’t need to set any boundaries because I don’t see any of them or talk to any of them. Right. No, I’m just kidding. No, I’m not kidding. But don’t follow my example.

Eric Deschamps:

So basically just live as a hermit?

Rob Dale:

Just live as a hermit? No, but yes. I think that notion of being able to explain and give reason and rationale, it serves the right purpose and helps people. Because ultimately the goal when you’re setting boundaries is you’re doing it for yourself, for your own mental health, for your own sake. Hopefully, though, if it’s a relationship, a family dynamic or a close friend or a relationship, hopefully another goal out of it or another outcome potential out of it is a healing of the relationship. Right. And that’s where I get to even with the conversation that you had recently, you start to see shift in understanding. Okay, so let’s try this a different way. I’ve changed the dance. Do you want to explore what that new dance looks like and how we’re going to show up for each other as a result of where we are today? And I can think of I can think of some close relationships and friendships that I have where even some of the joking or some of the behavior, I just say I’m not comfortable with that anymore. I choose not to do that. And now you’ve done that with me. Friends have shift. We did that in a number.

Eric Deschamps:

If there’s anybody that’s going to go over the line, cross the line. We know it’s me.

Rob Dale:

Never. But yes, we’ve talked about know, I remember. And again, you know your close friends. I remember one of the boundaries that I had, and a good friend of mine, John, we know John, love John. We’ve talked about John before. We use his cottage oftentimes for strategic thinking around different things. And I remember back 1015 years ago, again, you know, the story of my dad. My dad wasn’t a part of my life, and I was very insecure when it came to doing things like mechanical things or stuff like that. And some of the guys in the old biker world, they kind of make jokes about that with my close friends. I remember sharing with them one time. I’m really uncomfortable and don’t enjoy it when you joke like that because of where I come from. It’s an insecurity. I would appreciate it if this was an out of bounds or off limit topic for you to joke about. And it was amazing to me how those key people, john being an example of that, made that decision. And the years that I’ve known him since, he’s never once made a joke about that. In fact, the opposite. If he’s doing something that he thinks, oh, maybe Rob’s not going to be able to understand how to do that, he approaches it from, hey, you probably know how to do that, but why don’t we I want to walk you through how I’m doing this instead. I love right. So that’s where you know but it started it needed to happen was I set a boundary. The right people in your community embrace the boundary.

Kate Beere:

Yeah. And the boundary is for you. It’s not for everyone else. Right. It’s for you because something needs to change. Something needs to get better. Something’s not working for you. You know, it’s off and it is for you. And you’re not responsible for their reaction. Yes, you’re mindful we talk about the people pleasing, not wanting to hurt them, but you’re not responsible for how they’re going to react. It’s not your responsibility. And when you can separate those slowly over time and you just own your part and you’re not responsible for just it’s so freeing when you can walk away and kind of go like, oh, wow, so good.

Eric Deschamps:

And Rob, the story, you know, with John and telling the guys, listen, I really appreciate if this was off limits. It’s funny, we’ve come to call that setting a boundary, when in reality, what you were expressing is your need. What do I need from you in this moment? But I think we’re so bad at that. I think we struggle so much with telling people what we need because we’re so again, the people pleasing thing, we’re often just focused on what they need. That our voice, our needs almost don’t even make it into the equation. But learning to I know some folks are just really uncomfortable with the language of boundaries. I’m like, how about we just change the language to letting people know what you need when you need it? And if something’s not working for you to say, hey, listen, this is what’s so for me, when this happens, here’s what I need from you. And I think, again, your people, your true people will respond the way John did. They’ll go. Okay, I didn’t know that. Thanks for letting me know. And we’ll make best efforts to adjust. Right.

Wendy Dodds:

Well, and from a relationship perspective, I think that’s even harder for people. And it’s something that we’ve tried to be very intentional with. And I’m very open and transparent that I am very much the type of person that will shut down and I will not communicate my needs because I will deal with it on my own. And I am learning. And you’ve been great at this in just opening up that dialogue of communication where I’m working at getting better at communicating. This is what I need. And it doesn’t always come out nice and flowy and pretty, but it’s being able to articulate that. And we talked a little bit about this in the last episode. How do you get better at that practice? Just working at it and continuing to.

Kate Beere:

Practice it and practice it in those moments too. You don’t always know what you need. There’s times where I’m just like because I’m very similar in that way. So for me, I shut down and I cocoon. And that’s like, I deal with everything in my own. I’m good.

Wendy Dodds:

Very much a woman thing, though, right? And then with men, it’s like, how can I fix you? How can I fix you?

Rob Dale:

Yeah.

Kate Beere:

What can I do?

Eric Deschamps:

We don’t talk about our needs very much. We don’t talk about our private pain very much. And all the studies, it’s actually sad, the level of the rate of suicide among men being much higher. And I think it’s because men really struggle to talk about their private pain. Right. And learning to express it and learning to say what we need, I think is so important to that. Actually expressing your pain and being honest with yourself is not weakness. It actually takes great strength and courage.

Kate Beere:

Yeah. And know you’re not always going to know what you need. Be okay with that. Because that question, you’ve often like, well, what do you need? I don’t fucking know. I don’t know what right.

Eric Deschamps:

Right. Well, sometimes it’s a question. It’s a set of questions that Sherry helped me with. And I practice it as often as I can. I still fall into fixing mode. That’s my nature. To want to help is so strong. And I think as men, that’s kind of our go to is let’s fix it. Right. And often that’s not what’s needed. But slowing down and simply asking the question in that moment, what do you need from me right now? And how can I help? And sometimes you can help by just giving me some space to sort this.

Wendy Dodds:

And when you’re ready, when you’re ready, I’ll be there. That was us last Friday. I didn’t have a great day last Friday. I had a complete meltdown in front of my clients at work. Just the overwhelm, not setting boundaries, clearly. Clearly. And me being very much wearing my heart on my sleeve. So of course I come home and he wants to fix everything, make everything better, but just in a way of like, what do you need?

Eric Deschamps:

I don’t know what I need.

Rob Dale:

That was a real accurate portrayal of that conversation.

Kate Beere:

It’s a reenactment.

Eric Deschamps:

Film at eleven, but.

Wendy Dodds:

Then just knowing, like, I’m here when you’re ready, you take the space you need. But we’ve had enough of those interactions where he knows she just needs to not talk. She just needs to be right now, she just needs to process and then she will come and talk to me about what she needs when she’s ready.

Rob Dale:

And that ties into then, I think, one of the great principles to apply when it comes to setting boundaries within relationships, family, and that is if we’re going to set a boundary, we need to be able to communicate what that boundary is to the people around us.

Eric Deschamps:

Sometimes, yeah, sometimes we can’t.

Rob Dale:

No, sometimes you can’t. But when you can, to express it so that they are then able to adjust to that boundary for you. We can’t get frustrated when somebody is still when they’re kind of pushing against them, I set a boundary and they’re pushing against it. Well, if you didn’t explain to them what you need, how are they supposed to know that? And you’re right, it’s sometimes because in some cases you can’t share with them the boundary depending on what the relationship is.

Eric Deschamps:

Well, I won’t share who the person is just to protect the innocent, obviously, but it’s a relative of mine and trying to do this work of carving out a better healthier relationship and multiple attempts to have conversations over the years saying, here’s what’s. So for me, when this happens, makes it really hard for me to interact with you. And you just realize that some people just aren’t there yet. So in those cases, I think the attempt is worthy of effort, but sometimes you just have to accept that that’s where the other person is at. And that, again, are your expectations in line with reality? Are you expecting something from them that they’re just not that’s just not who they are, they’re just not ready to give you that, then? Well, then that boundary becomes a personal one. It’s a personal boundary of how much time do I want to spend with this person? How much exposure? All of it. Because ultimately, if the interaction with that individual, those individuals, is unhealthy for you, you’re not doing yourself a service. Right.

Wendy Dodds:

One of my favorite quotes is frustration is misplaced expectation. So anytime I’m frustrated, it’s why are you frustrated? Well, my expectation was that they were going to say this, do this, never respond to this.

Kate Beere:

No.

Wendy Dodds:

Neither do I.

Kate Beere:

Never.

Wendy Dodds:

I have lots of them.

Eric Deschamps:

Rob’s shaking his head, going, yeah, I work with you, buddy.

Rob Dale:

No comment. Many, if not most of our listeners, including ourselves, are trying to balance out personal experiences and then our professional, our work experiences. Where do boundaries fall into place when it comes to the work experience in our professional lives? What are some of the challenges that you guys have faced or dealt with when it comes to setting boundaries at work?

Kate Beere:

It’s hard. I find it harder at work. I’ll wear the female lens. I think it’s harder for women to set boundaries in an office.

Rob Dale:

Why do you think that?

Kate Beere:

Well, I think it’s the same reason women don’t ask for raises. I think women don’t ask for what they want. So it’s why men get more promotions. It’s why we have the pay gap. Because women aren’t sort of inherently sort of been taught to be assertive. Right, right. And so we are more passive, you.

Eric Deschamps:

Said in the last episode. And when you do find your voice and are assertive, wow, I’m not going to say the word, but you use the word. I’m not going to use the word. But you’re perceived a certain way.

Kate Beere:

Bitchy.

Wendy Dodds:

Harsh.

Kate Beere:

Yeah, she thinks she is. Yeah. Let’s say we were in the work, and you’re a male, and you say to your boss, like, okay, I have to go pick my kids up from camp at 430. That’s a boundary. Right. You could call it a need, but it’s a bit of a boundary. Right. And everyone’s like, oh, it’s great. He’s such a great dad. He’s going to go pick up his kids. And if I say that, they’re like, must be nice to leave at 430 and go pick up your kids. But that is exactly what happens. And so I can speak for myself. I found it really hard, very challenging, very overwhelming in that setting to have a voice.

Rob Dale:

So what I heard you say was oftentimes in a work environment, you won’t ask for what you need. Is there also a sense, from what I heard with that example, there a sense of that you need to prove something because the expectation is different, or the interpretation of behavior is different for right.

Kate Beere:

So what I’ll add to the end of mine is, okay, I have to pick my kids up. I’ll be sure to log on when I get home.

Rob Dale:

Right.

Eric Deschamps:

Wow.

Kate Beere:

Right.

Wendy Dodds:

Because the perception is so when are you going to make up that time?

Kate Beere:

Right. Whereas not you, but if you were you and a male in that environment, you wouldn’t have to do that. No one would care.

Eric Deschamps:

Right.

Kate Beere:

But I feel that I have to do that to overcompensate, over rotate on why I’m taking gosh half an hour.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah.

Rob Dale:

What else? What are some of the other challenges of setting boundaries in a work environment?

Wendy Dodds:

I would say for me is feeling like whoever else does whatever is not going to do it. Right. In terms of not that it has to be done perfectly, but it’s going to need to be redone anyway, so I just might as well do it. Right. But then I’m creating that culture, and I’m creating those expectations that, well, now we’re not going to do anything because Wendy will do it. Wendy will take care of it. Wendy will be available all the time. And so it’s challenging to set boundaries. And because I work in different shifts where I’m not like a typical eight to five, it’s learning to create those boundaries around purposely having my phone off, purposely putting it in another room, so I’m not getting distracted by and letting people figure it out. For themselves and being okay. If it’s not done right, it’s not done right. And lowering my expectations from it has to be done. Amazing to this is good enough, right?

Eric Deschamps:

Oh, see, I had a client tell me recently, he’s like me, recovering over performer, very successful executive director for a large Canadian organization. And through our series of conversations that we were having together, I’m his coach, and so we talk like a couple of times a month. And he made a statement to me. He says, you know what? I think I’m going to try on Good Enough for a little while and see how that fits and feels. And I was like, wow, so good. Because for me, the boundary around the work side is more a boundary with myself. As a recovering overperformer who struggles to know when to turn it off, I get wired about something. I get passionate about something. My passion is great fuel on many fronts, but the problem is I just don’t have an off button, or I struggle with the off button, and I’ve made tremendous strides there, but I have to check in with myself. You know, this I have to check in with myself regularly to say, whoa, easy there. Rome wasn’t built in a day, and I don’t need to accomplish all of this. It can be both a great superpower, but it can also be my greatest Achilles heel.

Rob Dale:

I think another reason three burnouts later.

Eric Deschamps:

Kind of are testament to that.

Rob Dale:

Starting to learn.

Eric Deschamps:

Starting to learn. Thanks.

Rob Dale:

You’re starting to maybe have baby steps. Baby steps. Sorry. Not sorry. For a lot of people, the reason they don’t set boundaries at work is because they don’t want to be forgotten.

Eric Deschamps:

Right.

Rob Dale:

They’re worried that, well, if I don’t step up, okay, I’m going to sacrifice personal time, I’m going to sacrifice family time, I’m going to sacrifice whatever. I’m going to say yes to whatever the boss asks or everything, because if I don’t do it, somebody else will step in and do it, and then they’re going to be the star. They’re going to get the promotion, whatever, and I’m going to lose out in that. And so almost this fear of what will be the end result if I don’t continually jump in and do all the stuff that needs to be done. I know that’s a fear that many have. I’ve had it in the past in different environments, and it’s something that people would struggle with as well.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah.

Wendy Dodds:

I think we forget how easily we can be replaced in anything.

Eric Deschamps:

Right.

Kate Beere:

100%.

Wendy Dodds:

100%. When I was working a corporate job in the HR space, and I remember when we went through a big restructuring and layoff, and it was shocking because I had been doing that for 17 years, and not that I would toot, about how good I was, but I really liked my job. But my first thought was, they can’t run this place without me. Oh yes we can. And just to your point of I got to do this so that I’m not forgotten. So that I was forgotten pretty quick, right?

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. It’s amazing when you leave one world totally indispensable and then you realize that you’re not indispensable. That the world is not going to come to a screeching halt if you don’t keep overperforming. And showing up the way that you do is that the organization will be fine, the business will be fine. Actually my friends will be fine. We often again, I think it flows out of this whole worth piece that we’ve been talking about. That because we’re seeking this sense of I’m enough most of the time in our relationships and in the stuff that we do. We overperform on those fronts because it somehow almost meets that need, but it never quite does. I think the more you’re clear about who you are and that sense of worthiness, you’re less prone to do that. But it’s a pretty powerful force that’s pulling at us constantly.

Rob Dale:

Yeah, it really is. So we know boundaries. Not having boundaries is bad. We know that.

Eric Deschamps:

Is that the executive summary?

Rob Dale:

That’s the executive summary.

Eric Deschamps:

Entire 34 minutes that we’ve just been recording could have been summarized.

Rob Dale:

No boundaries bad. We know that. We need this having boundaries. We need to good. Wow. That was really good. That was nice.

Kate Beere:

Harmony. Harmony.

Rob Dale:

So we know it needs to happen. What are some easy or maybe not easy, but first steps. Somebody’s ready? I’m ready. I’m going to start to set boundaries. How do I start? How do I begin?

Eric Deschamps:

Learn to tell people to fuck off. No, I’m kidding.

Kate Beere:

Well, it’s a little bit like be careful where you give your fucks. A little bit, right?

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah. That’s so good.

Wendy Dodds:

You only have so many fucks to give.

Eric Deschamps:

Only so many, yeah. For me it’s like, I think the first place I mean, I was trying to be funny there, but it was really funny. But I think we talk about in the living richly model, the quadrant model about one getting clear about who you are, what matters to you, what makes you happy. I think we often struggle with boundaries. Like, I use the illustration at the beginning of the show of boundaries. Like countries have boundaries, you know, where Canada and the like, they’re distinct. Why? Because there’s a boundary. We know where Ottawa is on a map because why? It has a physical boundary. It’s not a wall or anything, but we know on a map. I can tell am I in that territory or not. And I think most of us struggle a lot of folks struggle with boundaries because they don’t know, they haven’t defined for themselves what is important to me, what really matters to me. And so we’re living again according to other people’s expectations. Other people’s shoulds, musts and have tos. And that is the worst job in the world is to be an actor in a story that’s not of your own making. You’re just an extra in somebody else’s story as opposed to being the creator of your own. So I would say start with figuring out who you are, what matters to you, and go back to some of our earlier episodes. We talk a lot about that.

Rob Dale:

We do, yeah. What about for the two of you? What would you say is steps for me?

Kate Beere:

It’s like pay attention to when you’re uncomfortable. So get present, right? Being present, you know, when you need to set a boundary, like intuitively, you feel it in your body, you just know it’s not right. Like the boundary, you just needed to you knew I needed to do it. But get present to it. And if you start feeling really you’re off, you’re uncomfortable, there’s a likelihood that there’s a boundary that you need to set. You might not get there, but just start getting present to how you’re feeling in those moments.

Eric Deschamps:

It’s so powerful. But we often not only ignore those sensations, those feelings, those thoughts in those moments, we actually often work to silence them because we almost think it’s wrong.

Wendy Dodds:

To feel that way or distract or numb.

Kate Beere:

Yeah, exactly.

Rob Dale:

What about for you?

Wendy Dodds:

I don’t have anything intelligent to add.

Rob Dale:

Because.

Wendy Dodds:

You basically covered.

Rob Dale:

Yes, I agree.

Wendy Dodds:

I think starting small, as silly as that sounds, I’m trying to think of an example off the top of my head, but I find a lot of times we go all in. I got to change everything in our life. And it’s like trying a new I see it all the time in the fitness space. I’m going to come, I’m going to come six days a week. And then we just go balls to the wall and all in. And then we go through burnout and then we go through just it’s too much, too fast, too soon. So I would say figure out by starting off with really small basic things that you are struggling with or that you feel like that nod in your stomach, paying attention to how you feel. And I think that’s so good that you brought that up because we are masters at pushing stuff off to the side. So starting with that and I think recognizing that you don’t need to do it by yourself. So do you have a friend, a partner? And if you don’t have those kinds of people finding something that can help you map it out because it can be super overwhelming. And we all know overwhelmed people do nothing, right?

Eric Deschamps:

You freeze. You freeze.

Wendy Dodds:

You totally do.

Eric Deschamps:

It’s the faint or fawn response. We talk about fight or flight, but one of them is basically you just kind of crumble. You just don’t do anything. I think one of the greatest exercises I came across, you talk about paying attention to those feelings when you’re uncomfortable. Another way to approach it is to answer the question, where do I need boundaries most in my life? We do this in business all the time. What are all the pains in your business or your organization? Okay, let’s list them now. Which ones are the most important or the highest leverage ones? And I think approaching your life from a perspective of what are all the things that are frustrating me currently? I remember doing this exercise not that long ago where I was deeply frustrated about some things and being able to just write them all down and then say, okay, what are my top three? What are the things that are eating away at me more than anything else? They’re stealing my energy. They’re consuming bandwidth internally in my heart and my mind, and then writing them out and then coming up with at least six strategies for each of those top three. And I got this from John D. Martini in his book. The Values Factor is an exercise he talks about. We’ll put that in the show notes because it’s a great book. He talks about values, but he talks about all kinds of other really useful stuff. But this whole exercise of come up with six strategies, you may not even do any of them, but just the act of identifying. You got to name it to tame it, right? I love that the act of actually are getting clear on what are the things that are driving me crazy, and then what are some steps I might take on each of these fronts. All of a sudden, you realize you’re not as stuck as you think you are. You’re never as stuck as you think you are. I think it’s a good way to approach it.

Rob Dale:

I love that. Again, it’s the planning stage, right? It’s being deliberate with how you’re going to go about doing it. It’s one thing to say, I would like to set boundaries, or I’m going to set boundaries and then not have a plan. Right. With almost anything you talked about working out a moment ago with about anything. If you’re going to be successful at it, you need a plan, a strategy you want to walk through when you’re not in the moment plan out. How am I going to address that? How am I going to respond to that? What am I going to say when somebody pushes back against the boundary, right? What are some of the things that I prepare? And maybe let me ask you that because it fits into this is what do you say when somebody challenges the boundary that you’ve set? How do you respond to that individual?

Eric Deschamps:

I’m sorry.

Rob Dale:

You need to listen to the last episode. And, yeah, you’ll go back, did I blow it?

Wendy Dodds:

That was that was great. I love that you mentioned, though, writing down because when I’m working with people and we mentioned the word journaling, a lot of people are like, oh, that’s weird. I don’t know what to make sure you have a padlock diary. Not enough pages for what I need to say, but a lot of people are just like, but I don’t know what to write. I don’t know what I don’t journaling is weird. So I think that that’s a great tool, though, in terms of, like, write down all the things that are frustrating you and then writing down what you can control, what you can’t control, and then having right.

Kate Beere:

It’s huge. I just did that. I had something came up and I.

Eric Deschamps:

Wrote down pretty significant.

Kate Beere:

Significant. And I was really struggling with it. And so in between meetings, it just flowed out of me, and I wrote it all down, and I’m like, okay, what am I feeling? Okay. Oh, that’s interesting. Okay, what’s that about? Oh, it’s really about this. Okay. And then I just kept going. And even just writing that down without even getting to strategies, just writing it all out was like, oh, I’m feeling all of this. It comes up as I’m pissed, right? But like, pissed is all of this.

Wendy Dodds:

But that visual writing it down.

Eric Deschamps:

What’s the cliche until it passes through the lips or the fingertips? It’s not clear. The act of talking to a trusted person, talking through what is going on inside, or the act of reflective writing, as I call it. Like, it’s just what’s on my mind, what’s going on in my inner life. And writing that out, the imagery is we’ve all seen those. Someone takes thousands of rubber bands and they make a ball out of it, right? And it becomes this big thing. Where does one start and the other one stop? You talk about not knowing, like, Jesus, how would you take that thing apart? I have no idea. That’s how our feelings and thoughts can become internally, and it’s heavy and it’s weighty, and they all blending into each other. The act of reflecting on it and getting present to what is actually bothering me, how am I feeling? And listen, going past the anger, because anger often listen. It’s a very common emotion, and it’s okay to be angry, right? But anger is often the surface emotion underneath it. It’s probably hurt or betrayal or disappointment or something else. And when you can dig down in there, you’re going to find what really matters to me and how do I need to get into action around it, right? You’re going to discover that. So I think, like so many other things we’ve talked about on this show, without some reflective practice, you’re going to have a really hard time building your best life.

Wendy Dodds:

Well, when you think about living richly, this is the kind of stuff that we do with people to help them peel back the layers on where do I start? I don’t know what to write down. It’s too overwhelming. So helping people break it down is something that we help people with.

Eric Deschamps:

Right?

Rob Dale:

All right. You all avoided my question.

Eric Deschamps:

What was it obviously wasn’t that great of a question.

Kate Beere:

Sorry.

Rob Dale:

Brilliant question.

Eric Deschamps:

Sorry.

Wendy Dodds:

I’m so sorry.

Rob Dale:

Here we go. Three stories. The question was, how do you respond when somebody pushes? When somebody pushes, they’re pushing back on your boundary.

Eric Deschamps:

And I’m pushing back on your question.

Rob Dale:

Great question. Because we were going to face this all the time, so I have to leave at 430 to pick up my kids. I’m setting a boundary. No, you can’t. That’s one example or no, I’m sorry, I’m not going to do that on Friday night. I’m going to be staying home, pushing back on the boundary. Have you guys got either some examples or what do you say when someone pushes back on your boundary?

Eric Deschamps:

I just try to avoid them altogether. I just go into turtle mode and I go into my shell.

Rob Dale:

That’s healthy. It’s very healthy.

Eric Deschamps:

Retreat from the world. I think you do need to be prepared not to give a justification, but to hold your ground. And I think, what is the message? Don’t wait till you’re in that moment. Because in that moment, chances are we talk about when anxiety goes up, thinking goes down. And I think if we haven’t thought about if this boundary really is important to us, we need to be ready to come back with why it’s so important. Again, not as an explanation. Sometimes it’s just no. It’s just no. Right. And that’s perfectly okay, too. But thinking about that when you’re not in a heightened emotional state, like when somebody in the moment pushes back against you, you’re probably not going to say what you want to say.

Rob Dale:

Right. You will react.

Kate Beere:

Yeah. You will. And I think, too, I also think you don’t have to totally over justify it. I think it is what it is. I have to leave at 430. No, you can’t leave at 430. I’m leaving at 430 and that’s it. I think sometimes we over rotate to over justify to then overcompensate. So it’s standing your ground. But in a way, sometimes it’s just maybe reiterating what the boundary is, period.

Eric Deschamps:

Right.

Wendy Dodds:

Which I think gets stronger the more we practice it. Justification starts to go away more the more we practice what’s important to us.

Kate Beere:

Yeah. And it’s hard. Like the second it is very hard, someone who’s in your inner circle or you work with really challenges you. Your feet better be pretty firmly planted because it will rock you.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah.

Rob Dale:

And I think that goes back to Eric, what you said, and it summarizes there if you’re not preparing this in advance. Right. That’s why I asked. The question now is that you want to be thinking before you’re in the situation where you have to express the boundary or you have to enact the boundary. What’s your response going to be if someone pushes back on the boundary? Is it going to be to just simply reiterate the boundary without any other explanation? Because no, other explanation is needed or required? Or is it? Do I have a clear explanation to help them understand my reasoning for why I’m doing it? To be able to alleviate that conflict that might happen. But having that plan in advance is going to set you up for the success that you need in the moment or else you will likely cave or react.

Eric Deschamps:

Right? And let’s face it, none of us are going to do this perfectly. Perfection is never the goal. So, yeah, you may screw up, you may overreact, you may respond in a way that afterwards you’ve got to go back and do some repair that might be sorry worthy, right? And you may have to go re explain yourself. But every time we stand up for ourselves, every time we recognize that this matters to me and that means therefore, that means no or not yet or later or whatever the case may be, every time we do that, we become more self defined. And remember, it’s not about becoming so self defined that we no longer can connect with other people. The definition we use, right, I learned it from Jim Harrington and from Family systems theory is the actual definition of maturity is the ability to be self defined and remain connected. That doesn’t mean remain connected to everyone, but you maintain the ability to maintain healthy relationships. Right? Listen, we’re coming up about the end of the show, final words, not forever, because you guys are going to be back, actually looking forward to future episodes where we’re going to get to hear your stories and then I think we’re getting kicked off the show.

Rob Dale:

I think there’s going to be an episode.

Kate Beere:

We’re taking over.

Wendy Dodds:

Just so we’re clear, this was always the plan.

Kate Beere:

From day one.

Eric Deschamps:

So good. No, but there’s going to be episodes where it’s just the two of you. It’s so exciting to watch how the podcast is evolving. But for our listeners today who are listening in on the subject of setting boundaries and perhaps they are not self defined enough and are struggling to know where one thing ends and the other thing starts, what would be your final word of encouragement to them for today?

Kate Beere:

Practice? Makes better. That’s all I’m going to say.

Eric Deschamps:

No, that’s good.

Kate Beere:

I just stole it from Wendy.

Wendy Dodds:

It’s just ditto, I think. Yes, the practice piece. And then also recognizing that there’s multiple layers to boundaries. So every time you are practicing, saying no to something, that is one more brick in your foundation of creating the life that you so deserve, but also every brick represents more self worth.

Kate Beere:

More self worth, right.

Rob Dale:

And these are building on each other, for sure. It gets easier would be the advice that I would give is that as you start to own your right to having boundaries, it becomes easier to set them and to hold true to them. The more that you are practicing and the more that you are establishing that it is building it up.

Eric Deschamps:

Yeah, I guess what I would add to that is every time you say no to somebody else’s, unhealthy shoulds, musts and have tos, you’re opening up the opportunity to say yes to something that really matters to you and that is pretty important stuff.

Rob Dale:

Hey, this has been great a lot. Just so rich the conversation and so deeply appreciated. We need your help. One of the things that I am going to ask you to do we’ve been a little while since we’ve asked you to do this, but if you’ve been listening and been a part of the Living Richly nation for any length of time, want to encourage you to leave us a review. It would be great if you would give us that hopefully a five star review on one of the platforms.

Eric Deschamps:

It’ll be easier now with the ladies on the show.

Rob Dale:

But it would be also great if you not just leave us the stars but actually put a comment in there. The algorithms of most of these social media platforms, of the podcast platforms, they like that. And the interaction helps this get the message of the Living Richly podcast to more people. So really do appreciate it if you would take 2 minutes just to leave us a positive review on whatever platform you happen to be listening to or watching the Living Richly podcast. Of course you can go to our website, Livingrichly Me. There’s all kinds of resources there. We’ll link the books that have been mentioned and some of the other resources from today’s show will be found there as well as all of the other episodes. You can get links to everything that.

Eric Deschamps:

Is found there, like share, subscribe, get the word out again, as Rob was saying, we really appreciate you tuning in every week and make sure to go to our Instagram channel, Livingrichly Me. It’s same as the website where you can get bite sized versions of every show, 1 minute clips or less of some of the top moments of each show as a daily kind of motivational piece for you as you’re leaning into living your best life.

Rob Dale:

Thank you so much for joining us and we hope you’ll be with us again next weekend. Close.