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Exploring Trefor’s Journey to this point –a lifetime of searching. He describes what it was like being an identical twin, being bullied as a kid, and the regular existential dread. Even though he has a twin, and started life as deeply connected to another human as you can be, he still felt so alone. 

You can watch the videos of all of the Living Richly Podcast episodes on the Living Richly YouTube Channel

Episode 5: A Case of Mistaken Identity

I’m trying to use very outdated strategies, strategies of a child to navigate the challenges of an adult, right? They’re not working anymore, but I don’t, I don’t know what else to do. 

Rob Dale, Eric Deschamps, Trefor Munn-Venn


Hi, and welcome to the Living Richly Podcast. I’m Eric Deschamps, here with my best friends and co-hosts, Trefor Munn-Venn and Rob Dale. We’ve been talking over the last few episodes about what it means to live our best life and the lessons we’ve been learning and sharing with you were not gleaned from a book, although books have certainly impacted us.

These stories, these lessons have really been forged in the furnace of adversity. Living day-to-day life, trying to figure shit out. And a big commitment from all of us in launching this podcast was to really be open and vulnerable about our own story in the trenches and what what we are, what, what, what we’ve learned, what we’re learning, and what we’re still trying to learn.

And today it’s my privilege to introduce to you. Trefor Munn- Venn, dear friend of mine, dear friend of ours who’s gonna be sharing his story today. Trevor and I met just over 10 years ago now. So over a decade and we’re still friends, which, Wow. Says a lot. Right? We’re still friends. That’s a record for you.

That’s a record for me. Exactly. And Trevor and I developed a friendship really over in business. We met through business contacts. Hit it off right. Had an instant rapport, became fast friends. We… our friendship developed very, very quickly. Somewhat similar backgrounds, but I just think there was a lot of commonality in what we had experienced in our lives that connected us.

You’ll never meet a more intelligent charismatic guy then Trefor. One of the things I value deeply about him is when he sets his heart on something, he just goes for it. And such a joy to watch him follow his heart and follow that sense of adventure. And I’m super looking forward to hearing his story today.

Yeah, I got to meet. You around that same time, around 10 years ago. I remember actually the very first time we met was at a coffee shop. And we are basically working for a mutual contact. And and you were there to just to, to pitch some things around business. And I can remember sitting and listening to you as you were talking and you.

You kind of went on some tangents as he’s prone to do. We’re, I’m sure we’ll see some of that. It’s gonna be a long episode. Yeah. Go off with some tangents on some things. And he was talking about, you know, ancient wisdom and he was, and I remember sitting there thinking this is one of the most.

Interesting, fascinating human beings that I’ve been around in a long time. I need to get to know this guy better. And then I think it was not that long after that that we were doing a a presentation at an event where we had a a booth set up right. Uh, Together. Oh, that’s right. And got a chance to spend more time with you.

And that really started this, this was you know, it was, there are very few people in life where you just, you know, you need to be around them more. And that’s certainly who you have been in my life. And over the 10 years that has continually been a theme where I, over and over again, I’m amazed the stuff I learned from you.

The depth of that knowledge, the intelligence, the perspective on how you bring things into, into clarity and especially the words the wordsmith , the words that you use. The best words. Uh, He has the best words and, and the words, but, but really the insight that you bring to, to language has made caused me to ha have a deeper appreciation for why language matters.

The words we use matter. That really stemmed from conversations with you. And it, I’m so excited for today and to hear you share your story and the journey that you’ve been on. Nice, brother. Yeah. From from friends. To becoming mutual clients. You had your own business going. We had ours going to starting a business together.

And now the three of us as business partners and best friends. It’s been quite a journey and I know yours is rich with like the rest of us. Some great moments, some difficult moments. Devastating moments and all of that has shaped you to be the person you are today. It’s your story. Where do you wanna start?

Yeah, that, that, well, first guys. Thanks. Thanks. The, we are, we are in a, we are in another meeting recently, and I we were chatting about it afterwards and I remember during that meeting saying, listen, I don’t normally share private stuff. And I shared something with the team that frankly was pretty innocuous.

Is utter word, innocuous word. That’s a good word. And wow. Can you spell it though? We’ll be putting a link to a, the source of dictionary in the show notes in case you get lost at at any point. My words are good, but some are good. Or . And I remember we were talking about doing all of this. . And, and, and Eric, you were great cuz you’re like, so, you know, like we’ve agreed to be vulnerable and open and this thing you said where like, you’re sharing and not all that comfortable.

Like, are you sure? I was like, yeah. . I was like, no, . So today’s a great day. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. The yeah, we, we are here again, you’ll notice bourbon once again on the table. Cheers. And, and drink before we kick off. Yeah. . See . It’s the fortified bourbon series that will, that’ll come through the, you know, it’s an interesting question when somebody says, so tell me the story of your life.

It’s huge. There’s so many ways you can do that. There’s and, and honestly, I, I’ve struggled to try and find some footing on it. I’m not sure I’ve found it, but I’m just gonna start and I’m gonna trust that I will find it as, as I work my way through it, the. I think if, if I had to go to one theme in my life, it would be this sense of searching.

And and the challenge is it’s taken me a very long time to figure out what I was even looking for. Like, it’s like I’ve lost something, but I’ve forgotten what I’ve lost, but I’m still looking. Right. And so that, I, I think that’ll make more sense as I described this. But the that has been a huge, huge piece for.

You know it in many ways. Like I look and go, ah, it all looks pretty normal. It all looks pretty normal. It didn’t feel normal, but it, but it looked normal. I’ve, like, I have a lovely family. There was, there was no drama in my family, really. The you know no drama in your family. No drama in my family Said no one

No, no major thing. See, listen. Listen to Rob’s episode, y’all. You want drama? Oh, Rob’s episode . Or any day with Rob? Or any day with Rob. The drama’s my middle name. , my mom and dad. Still together. Still alive. to this day. Saw them not that long ago. You know, we grew up in a small rural village. I think it’s doubled.

It’s like 400 people now. Wow. But we’re my dad was a police officer, O P P and a hostage negotiator for the O P P as well. It’s been retired for a long time. Three older sisters. And as you well know, cuz you know him pretty well, I have an identical twin brother. Otherwise lovingly known as spare parts or Organ Farm.

That’s right. That’s what we refer to as. That’s right. Chris. Go to the gym and stay off the Alcoholics . That’s my, that’s my kidney. That’s my kidney. I call dibs Know. That’s the way it works. The hey. How did you, how did you like lie to your dad or rebel with your dad if he was a host like I I, that that’s gonna be the absolute worst, worst father to have, father to have as a host, host negotiator.

Like, how do you nego like, I’m only talking to mom , right? Like, well, let’s talk about that. It’s like, I’ll tell you, it’s frustrating as a teenager. The especially. But I think particularly for Chris, and I like a lot of that, kind of the behavioral pieces that were so automatic, I think for my dad. In terms of his ability to, to help people on their worst day.

Sure. Trying to stop it from getting any worse. Right. And with people who hate you. As soon as you show up, no one’s going, oh, thank God the negotiators here . Right. Somebody please talk me down. Yes. Right. Like, there, there’s this tension that plays out and about how you learn about the nature of trust. and the integrity that’s required.

Cuz you can’t, you can’t lie. Right? People know when you’re lying at some, some sense. They know. And so how do you be, you know, an authentic representation of yourself in a difficult circumstance. Like all of the, all of the, the language stuff, the behavioral stuff, all of those pieces. I think, you know, in a lot of ways Dad was the wellspring for that.

Mm-hmm. for, for probably for both Chris and I. The you know, we are small village a as I said, we’re down in southern Ontario. Haven’t been down there in a long time. A rural context, but you know, we weren’t farmers. So I’m on a farm now, and you guys describe me as a farmer. Like, it’s so new, , it’s so new, and I don’t think any of the neighbors are calling me a farmer here yet.

The it just, it just went really well with two ex creatures and a affirm. The but grew up in rural areas and, and that actually becomes more important over time as well, cuz there was a move away from that. Mm-hmm. and there’s been a move back and that’s been really important for us. I think, you know, when people say, if, if the chapter was the early years, you know Yes.

What what would it say that. There’d be a few things that characterize it. One is actually about being a twin, and Chris means the world to me. Right? Yeah. You, you can’t start life closer to anyone, right. Than, than as an identical twin, right? True, true. Like you, you know, we’ll joke, we were wo mates and , you know, all of that.

We fight over who came out first and who kicked out, who did come over first. Yeah, the I, I’m the older person, . Okay. Excuse me. . That’s loaded. I’m sorry. I asked. Wow. It’s like don’t go, don’t go there. Don’t go there, Chris. Don’t you forget it. The, but, so there we are though. In, in a small town. Yeah. A relatively large family, like five kids.

The at that time, red hair, freckles, glasses. Crooked teeth, identical twins. Dad a cop. The, it is the ripest material to be bullied. Hmm. Sure. And a and I’ll tell you the, that, that played out pretty large for me. Growing up as a kid. Some was like the pretty obvious stuff. Some of it was the more subtle stuff that played out, but it’s always this kind of tension around that.

And so you end up. For me, not you end up, how did I end up, I ended up trying to navigate my way through this. So that basically I wasn’t gonna feel pain a as a kid. And so part of it was, I remember in one class a teacher asked a question, I didn’t know the answer. And so like I, at recess, I got like roughed up over it.

I’m like, well, I’m not gonna do that again. So I start reading, right? Encyclopedias, I’m like, so those are a series of books, with lots of information on those. Our younger audience who has no idea what an encyclopedia old, when I use that word. Just look it up on Wikipedia. If you dial your library. This says YouTube saying, tune in, listen to YouTube.

There’s no tuning to join this show. the tuning into the conversation allow me to distract . So back to your story. So I realize that if I didn’t know things, I’d get hurt. Wow. So I start learning, learning, reading, reading, reading. So then it, then in a shortly after that teacher asks a question, I answer, bam.

I get beat. Because I like, oh, know it all. You got all the answers due. So I’m like, huh. It was one of those damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Right? So what I learned was I needed to have all the answers, but I had to be very careful about how I express them. Hmm. Hmm. A and so to navigate it, to try, so this is, this is me as a young kid trying to build these strategies to figure out, to say, how do I not feel these, how do I, how can I avoid these negative experiences?

Right? We’re wired to avoid pain, right? And, and those like that just kept growing, like that set of strategies in some ways you kind of go like, you know, I listened to you guys describe me at the beginning and, and I can hear all the scripts kicking. , right? The counter, the counters script saying, okay, how do I, you know, is that true?

Is that really, I’m like, no, no, no. Like these, these guys, you have not been afraid in the past to tell me what you really think about things. And I, I take you at your word in this moment as well, , the and I think that’s a, that’s a sign of a very healthy relationship. But you know, if there’s been a drive around knowing things, a lot of it was like self-defense.

It’s like, and so I would try and learn as much as I can, and those became habits that Right. Have lots of benefits, but not from a good source. Right, right, right. Not from a good source. The you know, with Chris, you know, you have your, you’ve got, you know, most people go, wow, it’s so weird when I hear my voice on a podcast or whatever.

I’m like, it’s not for me. I’ve heard it my whole life. Right? Like, it’s Chris sounds like me on a podcast. So you know, I’ve never kind of had that shock cuz you’ve got this doppelganger out there who looks and sounds like you and who genetically at a DNA level can do anything You can. Right. So we’re very often, we’re, we’re trying to say, what makes me special And my answer is nothing cuz there’s this guy who can literally do exactly what I do as well.

And so that became a real, a real challenge for me. What it, what it did mean was, . I did an awful lot of thinking about differentiation. What separates two things, what makes something special, right? How do you distinguish between things that look really similar and from a marketing perspective that’s really valuable.

Right, right. If you say you got all these competitors, how do you stand out? Right? And so that, that really served well. But the, the things we tell ourselves that go behind it, those scripts that we’re reading, we’re telling ourselves a lot of them for me came from how I was trying to, to, I guess, negotiate my relationship with Chris, right?

Chris, who I adore, right? Chris, who I just look and go, that guy’s amazing. That guy’s amazing. But my view for a long time wasn’t just that he was amazing, that Chris was amazing, but that Chris was better than me. And so that’s a, that’s a tough one because it throws you in competition. To say, what am I better than Chris at?

He’s the this one, I’m the that one. And it doesn’t help that people everywhere are going, oh, so you are taller, smarter, faster, fatter, shorter, more musical, more whatever like that, that’s being fed and fueled the whole time by every everyone else. And to this day, people go, oh, so Chris is more this than that, or You are more this than that.

And I. , do you do this with other people? Yeah. . Right, right. Like, it, it’s, it’s actually a, it’s a pretty difficult thing to, to do. And to this day, I was like, still like, eh, I kinda have to manage myself as I hear that and go, eh, they just don’t know. Right. They, they just don’t know what, that’s like the darkest version of that though wasn’t just that Chris was better, it was like maybe there was only supposed to be one.

Mm. And on really dark days. Like that’s, that’s a tough one. That’s a tough one. And there, there were, there were long periods of time with very dark days kind of going maybe like I wasn’t even supposed to be here. It was supposed to be that guy. Right. That’s not a good script to live with. No. Right. The and so twin, or not twin or not, it’s amplified.

I can just appreciate how much it would be amplified as a twin, having that doppelganger out there. Right. But there’s so many folks listening that could like soul relate to. I was an accident. Right. I shouldn’t be here. Unwanted, unloved, unwanted. Right? Yeah. Right, right. Like there are times where we can be so close to despair.

Mm-hmm. like true despair. And there’s times where people fully enter that. And you know, when you see that, when you see people take their own lives in that moment, like there are times I look and I go, I get that. I get why you would do that. I can, I could see that. Yeah. That’s not where I am now. The, but there are times where you look back and go, Ooh.

Because it just feels so fu I go, ah, whatever I do, Chris, you’re so damn confident. Like the bless your heart to the uh, . It’s so good. That’s, I was using my. Southern That was good. Was good Southern. Very good. The does he have a southern accent, , or is that how we distinguish the two of you? I, dude, he does it better.

No. , no. And to this day, like Chris and I, we diverge and then we reconvene. We will go in the most. Different directions, and then we arrive at the same place and we’re like, oh, come on. And literally, once Chris came to visit, we hadn’t seen each other in a few years. Shows up in Ottawa and we’re wearing the exact same clothes.

Like there’s, there’s like all of that twin, this stuff that’s happening. Yeah. And I remember he moved in. You couldn’t get ’em out. Couldn’t get ’em out. , maybe he’d never left . He he’s out west. He’s out west. Yeah, that’s right. No one’s seen him in a long time. We haven’t seen him since he left the. But I feel healthier than that.

He is . He needed that kidney apparently. Yeah. The but all of that, like, not one drop of that, it’s about Chris. Right? It’s about me and what I was telling myself about what stories going on around me. Right. And these are those, those scripts, those things that we repeat over and over where we do need to test them.

We do need to figure that out. Right, so I had this, this twin thing happening. I had this bully thing happening. Then I would say, you know, probably a, a good healthy dose of regular existential dread about, you know, what is the nature of the universe? Where do I fit in it? And. And I think part of that was that searching like, why, what, what is this?

What, what is this about? Part of that was around faith as well. Yeah. The, I’ve not been on the journey, you two guys have been on, but I’ve been on my own around it as well and, and found that there, there was a lot of pain. In that context, there was a lot of hurt in that context. I remember when, you know, we decided to leave one church.

I was very active in large church. We were like really, really active. And it was crickets afterwards. Yeah. And it was interesting. One person’s reached out afterwards, it was with a card and it was the most unlikely person I’d never anticipated that outreach. And the rest was like, I don’t know, hundreds of families of silence.

Right. And I was like, ow. Silence could be deafening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, in the course of this, you know, a lot of, a lot of pictures have been broken, have been shattered as you work your way through. And then it’s like, okay, well now what? It’s still that searching, right? In a work context, it is like, well, all right, well, let’s go do stuff.

Let’s go do stuff. And that was, you know, I, I’ve had a chance to do all kinds of things in all kinds of organiz. From small ones to big ones around the world and boardroom, like a really, really, a great experience that way. Really diverse. The challenges. While there were all kinds of things people would point at as successes, none, none of it mattered.

Like it didn’t seem to deliver, like it was basically irrelevant and the, like that, the halflife of the feeling. when you having accomplished something was so short, it w it, it basically, you know, didn’t matter. So I would go to the only other move I have, which is like, I’d work harder, right? And it would fuel this cycle where all I would find was it didn’t matter how hard I worked, right.

Or what I accomplished. I, I still feel like crap. I’ll tell you, that was absolutely demoralizing because you’re like, well, that’s my move. And no amount of using it is going to get me what I’m going, what, what I’m after. And it, it was just so empty and so, so void of meaning. Right? We, we’ve talked about this before.

You know that exercise? We talked about the timeline exercise where you say, okay. Here’s the day you’re born. Here’s where you are today, and here’s you in the future. You’re 80 or a hundred, you’re whatever. So you’re partway through this thing what’s happened so far. And we put like good, positive stuff above the line and lousy, crappy things below the line.

And I remember doing that exercise and the. Disturbing thing for me at the end of it was there was a period of almost 10 years with nothing above or below the line. And I was like, yeah, I remember that. I remember like just the sheer emptiness of it. I remember periods of time where we’d be on a lo, I’d be on a long drive, like for business trip or whatever, and I remember just like sobbing in the car going, why am I so sad?

Why am I car like, Where’s this from? Like, I, I couldn’t, I couldn’t locate it anywhere. Cause I’m like, look, I got this family and I got this job and I got these things and all this stuff, and like just this terrible, terrible feeling. And then you’re like, okay, like try and get there. Pull yourself together.

And then like, Muscle through, muscle through put on the show, do the do, do the work. Yeah. All of that. Right. So there was this futility to it as well. Not surprisingly, that is not a good breeding ground for a good, healthy environment in a, in relationship. Right. So with Carrie and I, we’ve been together a long, long time.

The that it, it’s been a very tough marriage. We’re really blessed. We’re in a great place right now, the best place we’ve ever been. It’s wonderful to see. Yeah, it’s been nice and you guys have seen a lot of that transformation that’s happened. And that’s both of us doing our work. That’s both of us having moments where everything has fallen apart.

That’s moments where we’ve both had massive uncertainty about what are we, what are we doing? But it’s also, there’s also a kind of a perseverance in all of this, like you know, and from both, from both of us to say how do we, how do we do this? But there’s, you know, again, it just kind of fed this, I don’t know, like, what is this thing?

What, and that still, that searching, searching, searching. Can’t find it. Yeah. But it, it’s almost dreamed like where, you know, you’ve lost something and you find yourself searching everywhere, but you can’t find it. Yeah. That’s how my life has looked to me. And it’s been so frustrating. Yeah. Really frustrating.

Yeah. Right. And there’s this, this play of. That, that sense of pain that comes with it then comes with this instinct to numb it, to say, I gotta get rid of that. And so it’s to try to eliminate then anything that’s gonna push it either way. And I think that’s, that’s been a lot of it as well. So again, like no major drama moments, no major, like just kind of this slow.

I don’t know. I don’t even know what drop into despair and frustration as I’m trying to use very. Outdated strategy strategies of a child to navigate the challenges of an adult. Right. They’re not working anymore, but I don’t, I don’t know what else to do. Did you, did you, like, I, I can imagine a lot of people listening that will relate so much to what you shared in that, to your point, the, the.

Good family, you know, no drama or little drama or, you know, you know, all of that. And now, and they’re almost feeling, I’m feeling this way and I, and now I’m also feeling guilty that I’m feeling this way. Right. I, what’s wrong with me? That I’m feeling I should be happy. I should, should, should. Right, right.

The shutting all over yourself. Right. Exactly. Yeah. That, that should piece was massive. Yeah. Right. And it’s you I found myself so stuck in, in even how to think about what I thought was happening, right? It was like, none of none of my frameworks were working around it. And so I just keep working harder.

You just keep working harder. It was like it was like I, there it is, like those videos. Have you seen video, like winter videos of cars usually in the city on a. That starts sliding down the hill. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they’re not going fast, right? But they’re sliding and you can see it.

And you look at the bottom and you go, I know what’s about to happen. Like it’s inevitable. Right? Slow motion crash. , right? . They’re on black ice. They’re drifting, drifting, drifting. And, and the only question is, , how much damage is this gonna cause? How hurt are they going to end up being? Yeah, yeah. Right.

That’s how it felt. Right? Right. It was just like, I, I know this isn’t what I need to be doing. Right. I may be pumping the brakes and working as hard as I can, but like, even going one kilometer an hour down the hill and you’re like, I’m, I’m gonna hit something and I can’t stop it. I can’t steer. The collision is inevitable.

Yeah. It felt so helpless, so, so helpless. the without realizing that you at that kind of speed in particular, you can step out of the car . Right, right. Anytime you want . Wow. Right, but I’m like double pumping the bridge going. Maybe you could just, just exit . I know, Rob, when, when we were doing your story and I asked you very specifically, Right.

That moment of clarity where you said, all right, I’m about to change things, that was like you stepping out of the car. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And I want, I wanted to understand that better. So, so that wasn’t just for everyone else. That was like, how did you do that, Roger? I was like, how, how does that work? I now like the other videos of near misses.

Hmm. It’s the near miss because I think in some ways I’ve also had a lot of near misses where through some kind of luck or grace or chance or divine intervention or karma or whatever, I did. It didn’t explode at the end. It wasn’t the tragic ending that it might have been. Mm-hmm. . And so now I have this moment of grace to say, how do you, how do you want to do things?

You know? So it’s it’s interesting cuz one of the things that I, when I think about you the notion of compassion and the way that you embrace and de demonstrate compassion to so many people that you interact with. You know, we, we used to, it used to be a bit of, a bit of a running joke. I don’t know if this is something we should be joking about, but a running joke that, you know, every one of your clients would end up crying, be right, is true.

And is that compassion or no, that’s, but, but this of course, so. No one’s ever has that. How awkward the idea that, and, and, and for you to hear you talk about near miss misses, it’s, you know, there, but by, but by the grace of God, I go right. And this, this idea that you, these near misses, it’s, it’s really helped create that.

Person you are today and being able to demonstrate compassion. Yeah. It’s well, and I, you know, I, I think, Eric, you uttered these words in an earlier episode about how very often we’re giving to others what we need to give to ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. And that is, I’ll tell you, that’s a hundred percent true.

Yeah. As you described that Rob is, is trying to find compassion for myself because I look and go, how, how could I have gotten all this wrong? Wow. Which is also not a useful script for those of you who have that, you know, give a shout. Like, let’s talk about there are better ones. Let’s rewrite that.

Well, cuz that’s the thing with the script is you can rewrite it. Mm-hmm. , you, you can choose any script you want. It. And that has been a very active piece for me, is to start to redefine what, what is it I want to tell me about me or about the world that I’m in or about other people. You know, the spent a long time very, very black and white about things right or wrong.

And and I remember, you know, you mentioned Dr. Sherry before. We’ll, get Sherry on a show here at some point. The I remember telling her like, okay, like, I get it, I get it less black and white. Okay. More gray. And she’s like, Trav the world’s color. . Like, it’s like your monitor has a larger range than you to, it’s like millions of colors.

It’s not black, black, white and gray wagon and gray black. Gosh. Yeah. The really, I had moved from two to like three maybe. I thought it was doing really well. And the, you know, we, we had a good laugh about that, but it, it’s about trying to. Give myself the compassion to embrace a far more complicated world than I’m giving the credit for.

Right. Right. But it’s a desire to simplify it so I can feel safer in it. Yeah. Right, right. And it can exercise some kind of control over it and myself and what I think is happening, how I protect myself how I protect my family. Recognizing there’s actually an inherent futility to that because right, we, we had remember that microburst went through, knocked down all those trees.

You guys were out in the middle of the bush like, trees are falling all over the place here. You can’t stop that stuff. No. You can’t protect everybody from everything. And, and it was about learning to be okay when things are not. Yeah. Right. When things are hard. Yeah. And to, to accept a discomfort that comes, comes with that as well.

Yeah. You’ve been sharing a number of, obviously lessons learned in the trenches, right? How your various experiences and context have shaped the way you view life. You view yourself, how you approach your relationships. What would you say are the major lessons? What’s revealed itself to you along the.

that you feel has been most significant. Cuz you’ve been talking about your past. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And, and that’s a bit important part of our story but I know there’s, there’s a lot of really cool stuff happening now. What would you say have been some of the most important lessons learned that have been central to your transformation?

I suppose, realizing that I am better than Chris , right? No, no, no. Matter of fact, this whole podcast was designed to communicate that one message. Sorry, Chris. Sorry, Chris. No, no. Not that at all. Not that at all. Yeah. The, I think there is Maybe finally a recognition of enoughness. Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

From a point of, you know, at one point, do you mean like being enough? Being enough? Being enough, yeah. And accepting myself. Right. A and that I don’t need to perform my way to any kind of worth where before I thought if I’m not succeeding or exceeding or winning or growing, or. You know, excelling at whatever, if I’m not setting higher and higher standards and then knocking it outta the park, that, that, none of that actually affects my sense of worth that I, you know, that I am whole and complete just as I am.

And that is a, that one I, that’s not a hundred percent one. That, that’s one I’m kind of working on the that’s a big one. . That’s a big one. That’s a big one. We’ve been talking about how self-acceptance is, , you can’t go far down the journey to transformation and becoming the best version of you without first starting there.

That’s right. Yeah. Right. And I don’t know if you ever truly move off of that one. I think you, you do some work, you come to a level of accepting yourself to a degree, and then life will test that resolve, test, that new commitment, and so that you have the opportunity deepen your resolve around it. Yeah.

It’s. When it, when, when I’m listening to that really Well, boy, like the world changes, right? Yeah. The world changes and there’s days there, there’s still some dark days and you guys see them, right? And you guys have been really compassionate and full of grace through that, right? And to be in a context where, You can be with people who can see that and still fully accept you.

It’s like, wow. Right. We’ve said before, you need to do this with other people. Not just any people though too. It’s to find those people who can, who who can accept you, but also still encourage you and prompt you and help you and and to bring all of that. So I think that’s been huge. The other part is listening more to what actually makes me feel.

Hmm. Which sounds really simple and obvious, but has not been simple or obvious for me. The right. For most, I think, oh yeah. Maybe for most. Right. I think that’s it. I, I don’t think I mean that’s, it’s such a common problem. Yeah. Cuz we spend so much of our life numbing, pain, running from pain that paying attention to what feels good.

We see it as a temporary relief. Party demons, right? Yeah. And yet when we start paying attention to it and saying, I want more of that, I wanna live in that direction more. Yeah. That’s a big shift. It’s huge. Not an easy one to make. It’s huge. Yeah. And, and that led us to this, to this little farm here, right?

Yeah. And when. Carrie and I first stood up, like just up the hill here, and we looked out, we’re like, we, we just have to do this. We have to do it. We didn’t have a plan. We weren’t planning to buy. I remember what I told you guys. You guys like what? We thought you were crazy. Yeah, yeah. Farm. The those are not mutually exclusive.

The that’s true. We were saying True isn’t the first time the that’ll be the last time last. But there was a leap, right? Yeah. And so there was a moment of listening, going, listen, we’re not sure where this is gonna go, but we, we need to do this. We need to do, and we did. And we’re like, oh my God, what have you done?

And I remember, cuz like we, we’ve got this vineyard here, and I remember carrying, like, holding each other. There’s like this beautiful kind of romantic moment full of silence. And I said, What the fuck are we supposed to do in a vineyard? ? It’s like, we never wanted a vineyard. We hardly drink . Like we didn’t know anything.

So it’s, but that even that has required us to live into something which has been really, really healthy. Right. So back to that kind of rural context as a kid. Mm-hmm. , there is part of that recovery where I felt good then Oh yeah. I feel good outside. I feel. Actually with plants and working with plants and, and taking care of them.

And now I got lots to take care of. Mm-hmm. And it gets me up early. I love sunrise and sunset and I’m out there for that. And so I’ve, I’m not such, just, everybody needs to go by a farm, but is, it’s to find those things. Things. What? Man, you can hit the unsubscribe button anytime. But it, it was to be willing when you hear that or feel that, to take an action in that direction.

Right. And I think Carrie and I have been doing a lot of work that, that made it easy for us to take that leap. And we’ve done been doing a lot of figuring out since, right, like one set of challenges after another, but to have a Thanksgiving dinner where we grew, everything we ate. was really, really satisfying at a level.

I just can’t describe how good that felt for me. And the truth is it doesn’t matter if it feels good for anybody else, right? That felt really good, like that really mattered. And so I think that that key part as that the compassion is starting to play out and then we’re starting to take more and more actions that are aligned with what feels.

Right. And it’s not just like I got a feeling, I’m gotta go it there. There’s a, it was a listening exercise. There was a deeper listening around what’s missing out of our lives here and how can we start to not just plan for it? Cuz we, we had started to talk about what would happen when the kids go away to school and things like that.

And we thought, well, maybe more time in the country or traveling or that kind of thing. What we tried to do is say, how do we move that into the present? Right. To this point of waiting and being stuck. Right. I have a decade where I’m like just stuck with nothing in it. Right. Right. I don’t wanna do that anymore.

You know, it’s it’s interesting if you have an opportunity to listen to the podcast where I share my story the longer I shared my story, the brighter it. And the longer the room, the room got brighter and brighter. Right. And the longer Trevor has shared the darker, the darker, it’s getting . And that’s, that’s just indicative of the time of day.

Yeah. . It really, it really is. Yeah. Yeah. It’s like when a good movie, they put rain when it’s a great little for the foreshadowing the You know I say this when I, when I hear you and I see you living richly now. Yeah. I was, Wendy and I were having a conversation the other day and was saying, I don’t know in different ways, cuz you both are expressing, living richly in, in beautiful ways.

When I watch you and Carrie and when I have the opportunity to do that here at the farm, and Wendy and I, last time we came to visit, both of us were commenting on this. Was that how absolutely beautiful it is to watch the two of you. Here together. Mm-hmm. and, and it’s such an incredible, you can just see two people truly living out purpose and fulfill all of those things in the way that you guys interact with each other.

The, just the way you communicate, the way you touch, the way you just, all of it. You just see something so beautiful and, and the farm is clearly a part of that for you. Yeah. Yeah. Without a doubt. What are some of the other ways that you feel you’re living richly these days? I mean, the farm is obviously a huge part of that.

Firm’s a huge part of it. I have more control over my own thinking now than I have ever had. That capacity to choose our thoughts, right. And to shape our mindset. Right. And we chatted be before, honestly, Ben Berger’s book really, really helped me. It really helped me. I think it found a lot of language for things I’ve been sensing, and I was like, now I’ve got the language.

I can start. Work with that more. Right, right. And to, to shape things. So I think that control over my own thinking more so than ever before. There’s still a lot of, a lot of thoughts that are firing without, like, where’d that come from? But I think that’s an endless exercise as well. But one where the that that sense of.

Recognition that, you know, the only control we really have is that internal control, right? And to let go of all of trying to control all of the external stuff and to give full attention to what’s going on inside is really, really shifting things. I mean, that’s, that’s been huge as well. I. The other area for me where it’s really showing up is in relationships.

Mm-hmm. the tho those have not been easy or automatic for me. But they just get better and better, probably first and foremost with my own kids as well. I, I have teenagers. That’s a joy. The there, there are good days and bad. There’s days where I feel like, ah, I’m just screwing this thing up.

And, and there’s other days where I’m kinda going, nah, no, I’m not, let’s, let’s take a longer view here. And the relationship with Carrie as well around that. And I think it’s, it’s kind of like assembling the people in my life who are going to genuinely support what I’m doing, work to understand it, be accepting of where I’m at and what I, what I’m working my way through.

And a chance to do the same, to do the same with them. Right. To bring that reciprocity to it. There are people who are, are not in my. Who had, had been for a long time, and not outta malice, but out, definitely out of, you know, I think a recognition of what do I really need and who do I really need in order to make this work?

And again, the those doors are open, but the but it’s also about, saying, I, I’ve gotta be clear on who I need in my life and whose voices am I gonna listen to and who’s who aren’t I? Because a lot of the scripts that we have are other people’s voices Yeah. Speaking through us. Yeah, sure. Yeah. And so we do need to be careful around that.

Yeah. So I think that’d be the other part as well. Yeah. That’s amazing. Mm-hmm. , it’s been so great to hear. I mean, it’s amazing how even as your best friend sitting. listening to you tell your story. You learn something new. You Yeah. You discover something that you didn’t just appreciate the same way.

So appreciate your openness and your willingness to do that. Before we wrap up mm-hmm. for our listeners today, if there’s one or two things that you would say to someone who’s listening who can relate to many of the things that you experienced, have experienced and are growing through, how would you encourage them today?

You know, my, my fear would be for the person stuck in that 10 year waiting period of nothingness. Right. Working their ass off. Right. Right. That, that is a person for whom I have deep, deep compassion. Right. If you, if you find yourself there I would say, boy, what would you say? , I would say Don’t wait.

Sh there, there’s an element of shaking it off, right? You did it with a bike trip. Like you, you took, you took a, a motorcycle trip to do it. You needed to be alone and reflect and go what really matters. Yeah. The, I, I think that time of reflection and remembering going, is this what I. And, and if not is to say, what is it that I truly want and need in my life?

And, and listen to that. Spend some time with that. Clear it don’t, right? At a certain point, busy doesn’t cut it anymore. Right? And to say I need to, cuz no one else can do this. I need to create this space to say, what do I really need here? And to listen really deeply to that. And then gently take small. to, to put it in motion.

We talked about this recently. Like for me, it. It’s a little bit of motion. As long as you’ve got a little bit of motion, you can, you can course correct if you kinda go, it’s not that it’s more this, but when you’re at a full stop steering, a parked car, steering a parked car, right? You can’t do it. But the slightest bit of motion, right, opens up a world of opportunity.

I would say find that bit of, and align towards. What only matters for you. Right? And I know there’s times where we say, yeah, but you don’t know. I got all these things and I’ve got this situation. I’m a single dad, single mom, single, whatever. I’ve got all these. It’s like uhhuh. Absolutely. But it, it won’t change otherwise.

Right? No amount of you, you can’t outwork that right situation. You can only change your direction. Right. You can’t out-hustle it, you can’t out muscle it. Right. You have to out decide it. Right. How many people said, well, I’ll outwork the problem. Right. Right. Well, all you do is work yourself to death. Right.

Like the, there’s a point where effort alone will not cut it. Right. Right. The, the hustle culture is very much an early career kind of move cuz that’s all you got is. You don’t actually have the experience or the skills or all this stuff, but you’re like about, I will work, watch this. Yeah, and then you build these other things.

The challenge is the hustle just keeps coming and it’s like, and it works well enough, but it doesn’t scale. Yeah, it doesn’t align. Right? It’s not your compass, it’s just you’re just driving faster and faster. You don’t know if you’re in the right direction or not. Right, right. A hundred percent. Such great advice.

Again, Trevor, thank you for sharing your story with us and with our listeners. We hope you’ve enjoyed today’s show. We do encourage you if you’re gleaning some great lessons from this. If you’re resonating with what we’re saying about living your best life, make sure you hit the subscribe button both here and on YouTube so you don’t miss any upcoming episodes.

If you know of somebody who could benefit from what we’re sharing and the journey that we’re. Maybe the journey that you’re on, then we invite you to share it with them. Get the word out so that more people can experience their best life. And it we’re putting constantly up on our website, we’re putting up resources and tools things that you can access.

To help you in this journey. Simply go to living To find those resources and avail yourself of them. We hope you’ve enjoyed today’s show. Again, thank you gentlemen, for another great conversation and we hope to see you next time.